Dan Meyer (00:01):

Hey folks, welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. My name is Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:05):

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson.

Dan Meyer (00:06):

Bethany, it’s been fantastic to see you. It’s been a long while. I feel like [it’s been] since NCTM and our last episode, where we compared the best teacher from movies and TV, crowning the winner Tina Faye from Mean Girls, is a huge, huge episode. It’s good to see you back.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:20):

Didn’t see her coming, but it’d be so fun to be in person. And the energy in that room was, I mean, if you listeners, if you heard that episode, we had some very, very passionate opinions about which teacher was best represented. And we’ve heard from a lot of you that we left a ton of people out. We know, and you know, it’s been great to hear your opinion and your defense of Ms. Frizzle. So, thank you for that. <laugh>

Dan Meyer (00:50):

I apologize for nothing. We’re super excited right now to bring to you folks the first post-NCTM episode. We have a couple of authors, a couple of published authors on the call here. And they, they got a really fun premise for a book. They have, I think, maybe one of the most interesting data sets out there. There’s lots of data out there that’s quantitative, you know, survey data or assessment data and who-knows-what percentages. And they’ve got a set of data that’s just super qualitative, but really dives deep into the beating heart and soul of students as it relates to mathematics. Especially because this season is all about joy in math, how students have it, why they don’t sometimes. And what we can do about that. First up, Sarah Strong is a co-author of the book Dear Math. Sarah loves hearing people’s math stories. I’ve known Sarah first as a math and science teacher in grade six through 12, and a teacher developer at High Tech High in San Diego, a school that’s very innovative and project based and very exciting. And so Sarah’s on as a co-author. And Gigi Butterfield is also a very talented mathematician. And, you know, someone that I have learned from. So I consider Gigi a math teacher-educator as well, coincidentally, [as] one of Sarah’s students! So this is a fun project where Sarah and Gigi are teacher and student and co-authored a book called Dear Math. And Gigi’s now a student, a screenwriting major at Loyola Marymount University. So please, welcome on, great to have you folks, Gigi and Sarah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:28):

Welcome, you two. We’re so glad to have you in the Lounge.

Sarah Strong (02:32):

Yay. Thanks for having us.

Gigi Butterfield (02:34):

Yeah, happy to be here.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:35):

So the full title [is] Dear Math: Why Kids Hate Math and What Teachers Can Do about It, and as I was reading this out and about in the wilds <laugh>, you know, it was really interesting. Like I’m sitting in a waiting room and somebody starts to talk about their math experience, which, you know, Dan, you know, I love to talk to people. Actually, this season, Sarah, Gigi, we are actually starting all of our episodes, and we actually had a whole episode about this, about Dan’s math story, my math story. We’re asking all of our guests to share their math story. As I was reading Dear Math, I also felt like I got to hear more about your math journey as well as bits and pieces of the students in your class from their ‘Dear math’ letters. It was really wonderful. And so I was like, oh, I wanna hear their math story. So would you share your math story with us, as little or as a lot as you would like to?

Sarah Strong (03:35):

Well, we should have Gigi go first because this book is all about centering student voices. And so I always feel like we need to start by listening to the students. And Gigi here is the student, so Gigi.

Gigi Butterfield (03:47):

Wow, thanks Sarah. I feel very centered <laugh>. Um, so <laugh> my math story as a young student, I quite ‘liked math.’ I put that in quotations that I liked math, and that was because I pretty much thought that I liked it because I was told that I was good at it. I could complete the math assignments that my teachers gave to me pretty easily and pretty hastily. And so that made me feel really good about myself. And then I’d get a big red A+ and that’d make me feel even better about myself. And so I was like, I love math. Math is awesome cuz I’m awesome at it. And this formed what, if you read the book, you’ll see Sarah and I kind of coined a fraudulent fondness of mathematics in that, oh, ‘I think that I like this thing because I don’t really understand it that much, but I understand what I need to understand to gain validation from my teachers and peers.’ And so that’s kind of the attitude I was heading into middle school with. And it carried for the first couple years. And then in eighth grade I had a math test that I failed, like, four times in a row. And that was the first time I had really experienced failure within the math classroom. And it was super hard for me. And it ended up being, for a brief time, very detrimental to my relationship with math in that I was like, well, ‘The reason I loved this is because I was good at it and I’m not good at it, so I hate it. So I hate math so much, it’s my least favorite thing.’ And then I got to high school with that attitude, very different than the one I was entering middle school with, and then I had Sarah Strong as my math teacher. And throughout that first year and then a subsequent three more years where she was my math teacher, I learned that my fraudulent fondness had been just that, it had been completely fraudulent, and that the reasons I liked math, the pillars of what made me good, speed and accuracy, void of any real contextual understanding, were super arbitrary. And they were actually the reason that I wasn’t able to deeply enjoy math at all because I wasn’t coming at it with curiosity or creativity or any sense of relating it to my own life in the greater world. And then I learned how to do those things and I learned how to get excited about math, even when I wasn’t able to do it really easily or really quickly. And then I started to love math and I still love math today. So that’s what I would say my math story is.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:36):

I love it. It’s so interesting to hear that you have such a clear, and in the book you talk about it, too, this reflective sense, you’re able to reflect on what that test meant. Like it could have gone a very different way, right? Oh, which, folks, we should say that Gigi was in Sarah’s class for four years. It sounds like this relationship you had was really healing.

Gigi Butterfield (07:00):

Yeah, it was amazing. I was like the luckiest high schooler ever.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:04):

For reals. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And it’s so cool to hear that you were able to transform that and your relationship really evolved, you know? It evolved.

Dan Meyer (07:15):

I love your comment about how, ‘Now I realize there’s gonna be tough times, and that’s not an indication of failure or a fraud.’ It’s actually a very real part about relationships with humans and with subjects like math as well. It’s super fun to hear. I’d love to hear from Sarah. It’s so wild that you two have been a part of each other’s math story, to a significant degree. How would you summarize your math story?

Sarah Strong (07:38):

Certainly Gigi was a player in my ongoing math story as an adult. And I think that’s also a part of it, is we all have continually evolving and emerging stories of who we are as math teachers, but my math story is kind of congruent to Gigi’s and that’s part of what’s inspired this book is the phrase Gigi used in her ‘Dear math’ letter, fraudulent fondness, I had never thought of that beautiful alliterative phrase before. And I thought, ‘Oh my gosh, that’s what I felt.’ And I had called it a fixed mindset, or all of these other things, but calling it fraudulent fondness was so poignant to me that I couldn’t get it outta my head, and we just kept talking about it. And I think my fraudulent fondness started probably in high school. Before high school I think I was just really stressed out about math, because I thought I had to do really good at it and get things really right really fast or else I was dumb. So this was part of the fixed mindset piece. And so I wouldn’t say I loved it in elementary school, I more felt the weight of it. And I remember especially timed tests, which we always hear about a lot. I just remember sweating and shaking and being like, if I don’t get this the fastest I am a failure, I will cry. And that’s not really setting yourself up to love a thing. So I was, it was a bit fraught and stressful, but then in high school I had this belief that I had to keep being good at it, but I started getting a lot of positive feedback from tests and quizzes and teachers, that was like, ‘Oh my gosh, you’re so great at this. You should be in this class and look, you moved into Algebra Two as a freshman. Wow. Who takes Algebra Two as a freshman? You must be so smart.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, I am so smart.’ But that is sort of an anchor for fraudulent fondness as, ‘I like math because I’m in Algebra Two as a freshman.’ That has nothing to do with being mathematical at all, necessarily. My senior year, my calculus teacher knew I was thinking of becoming a math teacher, so she invited me to support her for my math class that year in one of the freshman math classes with her.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:54):

Wow.

Sarah Strong (09:55):

So I was like a teacher’s aid as a senior. And it was there that I think I started to break down some of my assumptions of what it was to be mathematical and start realizing, I never had the term fraudulent fondness, but realizing that I didn’t fully understand or grasp what mathematics was because the students in her ninth-grade class, I was getting to look at their work <laugh>. I was stamping their warmups, and there [were] so many interesting ideas on there that I had not confronted in my own math journey cuz I was really sucked into my, like, ‘Hey, here is my work. And I checked my answer on the back and it was right.’ I hadn’t seen different ways of thinking about mathematics and my eyes were opened and that made me wanna become a math teacher even more. I’d say throughout college I did a lot of collaborating and working with others and really developed a keen excitement for different ways of thinking about math and then becoming a teacher, I mean that’s the cornucopia, unique and creative math ideas are there in front of your face every day. And so I just thought it was the most fun thing to do. I started in sixth grade, to listen to what the students were saying and their conception of things and try to make sense of their thinking.

Dan Meyer (11:18):

There’s something so joyful from the student’s perspective of experiencing a knowledgeable other as being very curious about what they’re thinking, whether it’s right or wrong, maybe especially if it’s wrong, I just, I think about that and how you’ve been a part of people’s joy in math class from even when you were a math student, as a pretty special bullet on your resume. Thanks for sharing all that. I would love for you to explain to the audience what the ‘Dear math’ assignment is. Would you paint a picture of what the ‘Dear math’ assignment was?

Sarah Strong (11:48):

Yeah, the ‘Dear math’ assignment was birthed out of a project I was designing that was supposed to take this really metaphoric lens toward math identity development. And in right triangle trig, we use the metaphor of shadows to look at the shadows of our math story. And then the 3D geometry was cross sections. Like what are these cross sections, these snapshots of your math story that tell a story. And what I wanted to do in that project, aside from exploring all these math ideas and then applying a metaphoric lens to our own math stories, was I wanted my students to get to identify where they experienced a fracture in their math journey and get to go work with a student in that grade as like, public service <laugh>.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:33):

I got chills when I read that because I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, if I could go back and talk to sixth-grade Bethany, what would I say?’ Right?

Sarah Strong (12:42):

Yeah. And it’s almost like you, for some students I noticed, they had this fixed understanding of themselves as a mathematician from that point forward, from a fourth grader forward.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:55):

Totally.

Sarah Strong (12:55):

And they couldn’t even acknowledge that they had learned mathematics since then. So it’s like, you have to go backward. And actually, in helping some of those students, they were like, ‘Oh, I actually understand fourth-grade math.’ I’m like, ‘Der! You’re doing all of this stuff right now!’ But there was such this, I call it a math trauma, you know, I don’t wanna throw around that word, but it really was, because it was impeding them from moving forward in their math journey. So anyway, I wanted to have a way that we could identify that piece of their story. And then, at the same time, we do project tunings at High Tech High, so before we embark on a semester, we chat with a group of teachers and they tune our projects for us. And a humanities teacher I was with was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I have my students write “Dear Books” letters or something. It’s modeled after that Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan thing, you should have ’em do ‘Dear math’ letters.’ And I said, ‘Oh my gosh, you’re right, I should.’ So it came from another teacher at my school, and that’s where it kind of started. And during that project, the students wrote their letters, but then we did a lot of analyzing and revising and adding to our stories throughout the semester to explicitly address our evolving understanding of our math identity.

Gigi Butterfield (14:11):

I will say as a student taking part in it, it was very cathartic, and yeah, I remember going back and helping a eighth grader with some of the math they were learning, and I think there’s an element that you touched on, Bethany, of like, oh, when you go back to help someone, you realize they’re so small and they’re just trying their best. And I think with everything in math, it’s very easy to be really hard on yourself and we label other people as good and bad, but before we even get to that, we label ourselves as that. And so in eighth grade, I had labeled myself as bad at math and then I went back and I started helping someone. And the idea of telling this young person that because they were struggling, they were inherently and endemically and forever gonna be bad at math is insane. And so you of course didn’t do that, and you were kind of able to see yourself then in this young person and really heal a lot.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:11):

That’s so beautiful, yeah.

Gigi Butterfield (15:12):

It was pretty amazing. It was one of my favorite things I did in all of high school.

Dan Meyer (15:16):

I’m often guilty of assuming that other subjects have it better than math. I just have a hard time imagining that it would dredge up quite the same catharsis and psychological repair, for some reason math, and there’s some amount of data on this, that math occupies a unique and kind of mythic quality in the mind of students as this really formidable villain in people’s development. You’ve read all kinds of letters from students and I feel like you, when I referred to you as having this data set, like you have, I think, access to the psyches of students who have experienced that, you know, that math trauma, as you put it, Sarah. I wonder, Gigi, since you have the student’s lens there on your classmates as you’re examining those letters, what were some of the themes that popped out to you of why people find math so enormously challenging and hurtful in some ways?

Gigi Butterfield (16:14):

So the themes that Sarah and I found, and then eventually tabulated, end up being the different chapters of the book. So each chapter is an adjective that we saw coming up a lot in students’ letters. So there’s intimidating, hierarchical, useless. Those are some of the negative ones. And then in the back half of the book, we wanted to end on a good note, so we get to the positive ones and there’s, you know, fun, powerful. Paradoxical is even one of them because, like all things, you know, it is. And so I think a lot of the reason that, to reference the title of the book, kids hate math, and to kind of echo what you were saying, Dan, because I do agree in some ways, that other subjects have it easier—like, I am a writer, I love writing, and I think it’s because a lot of other subjects are viewed as less binary than math is. In math, you’re right or you’re wrong, you’re good at it or you’re bad at it, you’re a math person, you’re just born that way, or you’re not. And I don’t think that we view students in that binary manner in a lot of other disciplines. In writing, for instance, there’s a lot of individual work with the teacher that goes on in improving things, or people can have their own style to their writing, their own flair, which I think is fully applicable to mathematics, but we’re not teaching it that way.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (17:42):

We have a friend of the show, Mandy Janssen. Her book, Rough Draft Math, reminds me of that idea that, I think you put it so beautifully, Gigi, that you’re either right or you’re wrong, right? And how can we create those spaces where it is complex and it is all those things you list.

Sarah Strong (18:00):

I was gonna say, that’s why we actually ended the book on paradoxical, cuz we were like, ‘We’re gonna end on a high note,’ and then we were like, ‘Actually it’s not realistic that everyone would think all these positive things about math all the time.’

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (18:13):

Yeah.

Sarah Strong (18:14):

Nor is it even the goal. It’s actually really a part of the goal, is that we would, like you just said Bethany, be able to hold these feelings together and actually maintain a strong math identity through all of these emotions that come and go and to be grounded and like, ‘I’m a mathematician because I am a creative thinker who asks good questions and makes connections and listens to other people’s ways of thinking and models and all the math practices and all of these things.’

Dan Meyer (18:43):

So I’d love to know the kind of pushback that I imagine some teachers would offer here is that it feels, it has the feel of being non-mathematical, which is to say, it’s not, you know, in my scope and sequence or my chapter list or that kind of thing. And I just wonder how you could, how you might respond to people who’d love to know like, what is the bang for the buck? What am I getting back as a return on this kind of investment?

Sarah Strong (19:02):

I have heard that very critique and I’ve sort of gotten to the point where I’m like, ‘How can I start working with these students without knowing their stories before they’ve arrived to me?’ Like I want to understand them and who they are so I can know them well and then support them on their math journey for this whole year. We’re gonna be together for an hour every day for a whole year. <laugh> We’ve gotta know each other. So I’ve sort of, with students and even from students sometimes, I’ll say, ‘Why are we writing in math class?’ What I usually try to do is offer them my story first. So I have my ‘Dear math’ letter and I read it aloud to them and I share my story with them and ask them, what surprised you? What makes sense? What parts of that did you connect with? And then I’ll say for the next 20 minutes, ‘I’d love to hear your math story. I know it’s sort of unusual to do writing in math class, but this is gonna help me understand you more so that I can be the teacher that you need me to be for the rest of the semester. And I promise you I’m gonna read every single one and really be hearing your voice in my head as we go through the rest of the semester.’

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (20:07):

I’ve definitely had those assignments where I wrote something and maybe poured my heart out and then I had the sense that it was kind of just stuck in a drawer, right?

Sarah Strong (20:15):

Mm-hmm.

Dan Meyer (20:15):

I think there’s something about these ‘Dear math’ letters, at least the ones that you shared in the book, the excerpts you shared in the book, that were vulnerable, that were, like you said Gigi, they were cathartic, right? So even though I wanna champion folks to do this in their classroom, it’s like, as a teacher, whether you’re curious or not, you still wanna handle these folks’ stories with care, right?

Sarah Strong (20:41):

I think I write in the book about how, before I was about to read all the math letters, my heart would start beating fast a little cuz I knew there were gonna be kids in there that hate it <laugh> and I was gonna have to just accept it. But then I thought, well that’s the most important thing for me to hear, cuz it, I’m delusional if I’m not accepting that they have those feelings as they arrive to me every day. I just think, ‘Look, everyone showed up here and they’re happy to learn with me!’ But it also can feel heavy to the teacher. And so I like the ‘handle with care.’ Do something with the letters, confirm to the students that you read them and that you really value it, keep bringing it up, revisit it with them partway through the semester. It’ll impact a lot.

Dan Meyer (21:23):

I’m curious, Gigi, what other experiences you can point to that were the work of mathematics, like through doing the math, where you felt like your relationship was being rehabilitated with mathematics.

Gigi Butterfield (21:36):

I would say one was my senior year, I believe. Sorry, you can correct me if I wrong, but I believe my senior year. So this was also, just to set the scene, height of COVID, virtual learning, perfect setting for kids to love math when there’s chaos going on outside and no one wants to think about it. And Sarah implemented a project about voting systems around the world and throughout history and how voting systems are implemented into our modern day, how they work, the benefits and the drawbacks to different ones. And this was, you know, 2020. So it was during an election and it was so poignant that you couldn’t, as a student, you couldn’t not care about it, you couldn’t not be interested. You were coming to the table with some opinions, some ideas, and then we got to explore those ideas further in that, the end of the project, the sort of final piece, was collaborating with a group to create your own voting system that you thought could solve most of the problems, if not all of the problems that the other voting systems were introducing. So it was so relatable and it was so important that the math that you were learning, the struggle of it, felt worth it. I still remember that math really well because I remember the purpose, I remember all of the applications. And that was an instance where I really remember thinking, ‘Wow, math is powerful. Math is absolutely powerful and is important to me as an individual.’

Dan Meyer (23:31):

What else? Yeah, I’d love to hear another one.

Gigi Butterfield (23:33):

In collaborating with other students, which, at High Tech High, we did every day, and consistently with different people. And in doing that collaborating, it was really eye-opening to learn how many different skillsets there are within the discipline of mathematics. Because coming into this high school math classroom with that unfortunate binary thinking of, there’s good and there’s bad, one great way to disrupt that is to work with a lot of different people. And then you learn that people can be good at a lot of different things. There can be people that are fantastic at asking questions to understand the context more deeply. There can be people that are so great at creating tables and organizing thoughts. There can be people that are amazing at being skeptical of an answer, it seems like we’ve all come to a consensus and they say, ‘Wait, that might not be quite right.’ Or, ‘How did you get there?’ And it really makes you think deeper as a mathematician. And that’s something that I’ve really loved and cherished about math as well.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:36):

At one point, you reference a lot of different students, and I love going on the journey with them. And I’m remembering at one point, you talk about a student named Zelma who said she was bad at math, and then how she had all of these, and you say, ‘reference points to support her claim.’ And that phrase just stuck with me. How do you begin helping students speak back to that evidence? Because that evidence can be powerful.

Sarah Strong (25:05):

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up Zelma, cuz I thought her story was particularly poignant and it’s told at the beginning of the Hierarchy chapter and, maybe it’s obvious to people, but this chapter theme was maybe, statistically, the most prevalent in letters, this notion that students are always talking about how they were ahead or behind or not where they should be compared to either their perception, mostly their perception of everyone else. And we did a focus group on this chapter with a group of students and they were saying, ‘Nobody actually ever feels like they’re in the right place. Everyone always feels like they’re somewhere in this hierarchy that’s wrong.’ And I reference some research in there that there’s this pervasive story of a narrow path of math learning that’s sometimes in curriculum or in teacher prep programs or in schools. And it’s one of the biggest problems in terms of helping students form more whole math identities grounded in a lot of different things. But Zelma was referencing that she felt like everyone else thought she was stupid and I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m so shocked. I don’t see you in that way and I’m fairly certain that everyone else in this room doesn’t.’ It seems that she had built that thought of herself a really long time before. What I tried to do was to point out to her ways that I saw her being mathematical myself. But it was almost like she was like, ‘Yeah, yeah, you’re a math teacher, you’re supposed to tell me that.’ And so the intervention that we actually talk about about in that book, in that chapter, is Belongingness Buddies, which is not necessarily something that you would have to do in math class, but I started realizing that in order for students to shift how they saw themselves as mathematicians, they needed to know that I saw them as a mathematician, but also that their peers saw them as mathematically valuable members of the community, authentically, not just like, ‘Eh, my peer told me good job today.’ What Belongingness Buddies did was, they checked in on each other. They were the person, like if you were absent, your Belongingness Buddy is texting you today and saying like, ‘Hey, we missed you in math class today.’ Like all these kinds of things. And I once even had a student FaceTime their person who was on a trip so they could participate in our daily discourse that day. And it just built this idea that we are a community and we actually all need all of us to be here for our community to be whole and functioning. And when one of our members is gone, we reach out to them because we’re not whole without them. Through that the students were able to start developing deeper relationships with each other, in a variety of ways, but also where they were like, ‘Oh, my Belongingness Buddy shared with me a new idea about this math problem and I learned something new.’ Zelma, through working with her Belongingness Buddy, got some more confidence that I couldn’t actually instill in her myself despite my best efforts, that her peers started celebrating her. She was an amazing discussion leader! She was so charismatic and she would be in the front of the room calling on people and connecting their thinking and she was like, the best at that. I started thinking, ‘Oh my gosh, people need to tell her that she’s brilliant and an important member of this community, all these people.’

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (28:29):

And when I think about joy in mathematics, which again is our theme for this season, belonging seems at least like, you wanna feel like you belong in the space. You know, if you’re gonna experience joy, and you don’t feel like you belong, how can you have space for that joy? Right? And it’s really, really beautiful and I think belongingness or feeling like you don’t belong in math class is something that comes up again and again when folks talk about not having joy in math. So the fact that you are calling that out and bringing it into your space, that’s really beautiful. Thank you.

Dan Meyer (29:05):

Overall, this whole interview to me just speaks for how the most transformative work that teachers do as students often winds up transforming the teacher as well. And you’ve just described, and we’ve heard from other guests, Sarah and Gigi, just what this kind of work does on the people who are doing it, whether you’re a teacher or a student. Thank you both so much. The book is called Dear Math, Why Kids Hate Math and What Teachers Can Do about It. We’re so lucky to have had on Sarah Strong and Gigi Butterfield. Thank you both for being here with us and sharing so much knowledge and wisdom.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:33):

Thank you so much for joining us in the Lounge. Thank you.

Sarah Strong (29:36):

Thanks for having us.

Gigi Butterfield (29:38):

Yeah, thank you.

Dan Meyer (29:42):

Wow. That was a very unusual chat for a math podcast for math classes. It was off the beaten path for us, I think, I loved it. I wanna know what you think about it, Bethany.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:52):

I definitely heard of an assignment where you share with the teacher your math autobiography, where you talk about your journey with math. But a ‘Dear math’ letter is a whole ‘nother level. And the thing I loved most about it was the way Sarah was so focused on centering her students’ experiences. I mean, Gigi’s in college, you should have talked to me in college, Dan, I was not that self-reflective! I mean, that was awesome.

Dan Meyer (30:20):

Yeah. Awesome. Same. And I hope to hear from you folks out there in podcast land, if you try this assignment with your students, it doesn’t sound like it needs to take a long, long amount of time. Just some moments to reflect on your relationship with mathematics and to think about what to do next could be really valuable for you and your students. And we would love to hear more about that, how that goes for you and your classes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:43):

Yeah, and I think also remembering what Sarah said, that the biggest theme was that trust that she built, right? So she didn’t assign it and then stuck it in the drawer. She used it to inform conversations with students. She said even, make sure you at least acknowledge that you’ve read them, you know, they’re sharing something for some of them, something that they’ve never been asked before. And you’re trying to create this relationship, this space for future conversations and you’re building a community. I love it. So thank you, Sarah and Gigi, for being a part of this Math Teacher Lounge convo. We hope that we hear more from you listeners, like Dan said, about how this conversation impacts you and how you might use it in your classroom space.

Dan Meyer (31:33):

Find us @MTLshow on Twitter or the Math Teacher Lounge group on Facebook. And yeah, get in touch and we’d love to hear your own story about mathematics. We’re doing a little bit of a book giveaway also in the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group. So stop on by and share your story and get entered for a chance to win a book.

Presenter (00:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, from Math Teacher Lounge, we have Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer! <cheering>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:08):
Doesn’t go well that the door was locked. Like, I could not get in! <Laugh>

Dan Meyer (00:12):
Yeah. Gotcha. All right. We’re gonna sit a little bit. Let’s see how that works—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):
Hi!

Dan Meyer (00:16):
Yeah. I think we’ll stand up? Or whaddaya think, sit…?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:19):
Should we stand? Hi.

Dan Meyer (00:22):
Hello. Great to see you folks. Yeah, I can hear you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:25):
Can you hear me? That’s—I know YOU can me. Can you hear me OK? OK! We’re here. Hello. Thank you for like, lining up and coming out and being here. Thank you!

Dan Meyer (00:35):
Means so much to me that you could be here for me, on my show, with Bethany Lockhart Johnson, my co-host. <Audience laughs>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:40):
The hour has just started.

Dan Meyer (00:42):
We’re just getting going. Yeah. If you folks have heard the podcast, you don’t know how much gets cut out. And it’s like, mostly me just having, you know, anxious nerves and saying something silly and then we cut it out and we can’t do that here today. So it should be real fun for all of us, I think. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:55):
It’s not true. It’s mostly dancing. “Bethany, can you stop talking? Bethany?” Cause it’s mostly—

Dan Meyer (00:59):
“It’s my turn. It’s my turn! Bethany <laugh>! I haven’t been heard for a while.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:02):
Dan. We’re at an in-person conference.

Dan Meyer (01:05):
In-person BIG conference, I would say. I’d say a big conference. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:08):
And have you been to the Amplify booth?

Dan Meyer (01:11):
I have! Have these people? There’s a claw machine with free socks.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:16):
Yeah. You’re saving me socks, right? That’s what you’re saying. <Laugh> I mean, it’s exciting. How has your conference been so far?

Dan Meyer (01:21):
So far it’s been a blast. I feel fed. I feel like the community’s been awesome. How are you feeling about it?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:29):
OK. Let’s talk about me for just a second.

Dan Meyer (01:31):
Yeah. Talk about you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:31):
Last night, Dan, was the very first night that I was away from my toddler. <Audience: Aw!>

Dan Meyer (01:38):
Big commitment being here. Thank you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:40):
I got super-emotional walking back to the hotel after dinner, and then I got in my room, <laugh> I put on pajamas, and I turned on music. I slept so good!

Dan Meyer (01:50):
Yeah. <Audience laughs> Give it up for no kids! <Audience laughs> Hey!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:55):
I love him so much. But I slept all the way through the night. Oh, by the way, I ordered room service in the morning.

Dan Meyer (02:01):
On Amplify.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:01):
That bill’s coming. But it’s been a great conference and I’m so delighted to be here in person and to get to share energy…and hopefully that’s all we’re sharing today. Y’all got your tests, right? Yep. Sharing energy and community today. Because we know it’s been hard. Hardness. Hard.

Dan Meyer (02:25):
Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:26):
Years. Hard. And to be in person, I know conferences reinvigorate me and I go back into my educational spaces feeling revitalized with new connections and new ideas to try. So yeah, I’ve been excited to be here. And thank you all for being here.

Dan Meyer (02:40):
Yep. I don’t care if I get six different strains of Covid here. I’m just thrilled to be here. <Audience laughs> I don’t know if you’ve had the same feeling, though, Bethany, you folks…I’m a little bit confused to some degree about what we’re doing. I just wanna be really transparent. This is my sarcastic voice but I’m being sincere here. It kind of feels like we’re in a little bit of a time capsule. Like we all got in a time capsule in 2019 and, you know, you open it back up and it’s like, OK, so we’re still, you know, talking about X, Y, or Z protocol for establishing classroom routines or whatever. And I’m like, OK! Like, I loved that in 2019! But I do admit, I’m still trying to figure out a little bit like, what are we doing now? What’s our relationship to the world out there? Things are very different. I have had some great sessions that I’ve enjoyed. I’m also like, still waiting for a session to draw a little blood. Do you know what I mean? Like there’s been sessions…no? OK. You’ve been in these sessions where it’s like, “Oh, ow.” Like, and you look down and there’s and there’s blood there. It’s like, I thought I knew what we were up to. Like, I thought I knew what teaching was and how we relate to the world. I dunno, like in any Danny Martin session in 2019, “Take a Knee” was one, where I was like, “Oh, OK. Like, I’m not as hot as I think I am here. Like, I’m part of a system.” That kind of thing for me draws blood. And I haven’t been in one of those yet. Been some great sessions. I’m a little hopeful that today we draw a little blood and think about what we’re doing here, is my hope here, if that’s OK. So Bethany’s gonna moderate that impulse and she’ll be the fun one and I’ll be the blood-drawing one.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:05):
No, I don’t…that metaphor doesn’t speak to me personally. But what I will say is, I get what you’re saying about really wanting to be in that room where there’s like this synergy happening. No promises about that today other than—

Dan Meyer (04:18):
I promise. <Audience laughs> Go on.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:20):
Other than I get what you’re saying. I’ll find my own metaphor that does not involve bloodshed, but.

Dan Meyer (04:25):
Sure. There’s a lot of ways we we could go about this today. And the one that I’m excited about is, you know, we could like, you know, analyze some results from students, and talk about what went into that. Look at classroom video. Lots of possibilities. But here’s what we’re up to today. Hope you’re into it. Which is, we are here in the heart of the entertainment industry. You know, Tinseltown! Um, the Big Apple! Uh…

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:47):
No!

Dan Meyer (04:47):
Come on. What do you got here? Um…

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:51):
It was daytime at night. Like the lights were so bright.

Dan Meyer (04:54):
The City of Lights.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:55):
There was a movie premiere outside my hotel room, which I was not invited to, unfortunately. But so what are we doing today?

Dan Meyer (05:01):
So here’s what we’re doing. We are gonna settle, once and for all, a question you have not asked yourself yet, perhaps, but will want to know the answer to in a moment. Which is: Who is the best teacher in all of film or television? OK? We’re gonna do that. It’ll be fun. But I hope that in debating this a little bit with a special guest we’ll bring up in a moment, that we will start to uncover some truths about what makes good teaching. How that’s different from teaching as we see it in movies and tv. Why middle-class America wants teachers to look a certain way in movies and tv. What all that means. And it’ll be awesome. I think. I’m hopeful it’ll be awesome. So what we did here is we’ve invited eight people. Eight folks you people may have known. You’ve been in their sessions today, in this conference, perhaps. And asked them: Who’s your fave? Like, we might have our favorites, but we wanted to democratize it a bit. So asked some cool people who you folks like, who are very smart and thoughtful about teaching: Who’s your favorite teacher?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:58):
A few of whom are in this room. Thank you for your submission.

Dan Meyer (06:00):
Thank so much. Yeah. We’ll see what happens here. <laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:03):
As they shrink down.

Dan Meyer (06:03):
Yeah. Might draw some blood that I don’t mean to right now. We’ll see. OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:06):
That metaphor, what IS that??

Dan Meyer (06:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I’m still going with it. <laugh> And you folks will be a huge part of this. THE part of this, really. So what will happen is I’ll share with you our first nominees. A few of us will make a case for our favorites, or least favorites, as the case may be sometimes. And then by applause, by acclamation, you folks will decide who wins and advances to the next round. Start with eight, move to four. You folks know math.You know where this goes. OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:34):
No, keep going. Keep going.

Dan Meyer (06:36):
Two, then one.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:36):
Yeah. Got it.

Dan Meyer (06:37):
Then a half of it. No?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:38):
He had to school me on the making of brackets. But we got it. Yeah.

Dan Meyer (06:41):
How brackets work.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:41):
But we got it. March Madness, what?

Dan Meyer (06:44):
Yeah, in order to do this right, we had to bring up—all the folks that you’ll see are also former Math Teacher Lounge guests, or like, just fan favorites. And we’re also bringing up a former Math Teacher Lounge guest to help us decide this and debate this in a respectful manner.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:59):
New dad.

Dan Meyer (07:00):
New dad.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:01):
You see where my brain’s still at? I miss him. <Laughs>

Dan Meyer (07:03):
Friend from San Diego. Really cool teacher.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:06):
Incredible teacher.

Dan Meyer (07:06):
Works at Desmos and Amplify. And I just want you to welcome up your friend and mine. Chris Nho!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:11):
Chris Nho!

Dan Meyer (07:13):
Come up, Chris. Let’s go, buddy. We didn’t talk about it, but did you want to do the cornball stuff too?

Chris Nho (07:22):
Wow. Would I love to do—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:23):
And then the door could be locked! And then you have to wait and like, just—

Chris Nho (07:27):
Yeah, I’ll skip that part.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:28):
Hi. Welcome. You’re here. We’re here in person.

Chris Nho (07:30):
Very glad to be here. Thank you all for having me.

Dan Meyer (07:33):
Tell me who you are.

Chris Nho (07:34):
My name is Chris Nho. I live in San Diego. I’m a new dad. A three month old, just had. Yeah, she’s actually here at the conference with us in the hotel room. And I promise you she is not by herself. She is with…come on. I was like, “Hey, just gimme one hour. I’ll be right back. I have to do very important work.” But yeah, I think I got invited here because I have opinions and I’m willing to draw…some…blood.

Dan Meyer (08:02):
There we go! Two outta three! We’re good on the metaphor now.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:06):
We’re so glad you’re here. If you haven’t listened to the episode where Chris and Molly and some other public math folks share their ideas and ideas of how to take math out into the world, please listen, because we had a blast.

Dan Meyer (08:19):
Inspiring work. Really inspiring work. Very cool. Cool. OK. Right on. OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:23):
Let’s do this!

Dan Meyer (08:24):
Let’s get started here. Yeah! <Audience cheers> Yeah. And we might ask you who your favorite teacher is, who’s missing from our list of eight? We might have forgotten some people. Anyway. All right. So here’s our first two. Our first two are nominated by way of, let’s see, um, Mandy Jansen is a professor at the University of Delaware. Got some awesome talks here this week, a Shadow Con talk last night. She’ll be nominating one. And also, um, Lani Horn is a professor at Vanderbilt, also extremely cool, prolific author and speaker, just all-around great human and friend of teachers everywhere. And she’ll nominate another in this bracket, which is the Northeastern Comedy bracket, Northeastern comedy bracket.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:06):
It just worked out that way.

Dan Meyer (09:07):
Yeah. Here it is. Here is Tina Fey in Mean Girls.

Tina Fey in Mean Girls (09:12):
“OK. Everybody close your eyes. All right. I want you to raise your hand if you have ever had a girl say something bad about you behind your back. Open your eyes. Now close your eyes again. And this time I want you to raise your hand if you have ever said anything about a friend behind her back. Open up. It’s been some girl-on-girl crime here.”

Lani Horn (09:52):
I am nominating Sharon Norbury from Mean Girls as the best movie math teacher. She is an awesome teacher who is always there for her kids. She always sees the best in them. She shows that she can forgive even some pretty bad behavior, if she sees that kids are trying. She’s a strong feminist who makes sure that smart girls don’t dumb themselves down just to impress boys.

Tina Fey in Mean Girls (10:22):
“Katie, I know that having a boyfriend may seem like the most important thing in the world right now, but you don’t have to dumb yourself down to get guys to like you.”

Lani Horn (10:30):
She’s also super hard-working. She works three jobs. She’s always there for the kids. She plays piano in the talent show and takes them to Mathlete competitions. And she’s also socially aware. And when things go really badly among the girls, she does some pretty creative things to try to get them to be kinder to each other.

Dan Meyer (10:54):
OK. That’s one.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:55):
Helen Case.

Dan Meyer (10:57):
All right. Settle down. Settle down. Settle down. All right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:59):
Piano too!

Dan Meyer (11:00):
Bethany’s already trying to bias people here. All right. Chill out. Hold on. So next one is Mandy Jansen with Jack Black from School of Rock. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

Jack Black in School of Rock (11:09):
“What was your name?”

Kid in School of Rock (11:10):
“Katie.”

Jack Black in School of Rock (11:11):
“Katie. What was that thing you were playing today? The big thing.”

Kid in School of Rock (11:14):
“Cello.”

Jack Black in School of Rock (11:15):
“OK. This is a bass guitar and it’s the exact same thing, but instead of playing like this, you tip it on the side. Chellooooo! You’ve got a bass! <Laugh> Try it on.”

Mandy Jansen (11:25):
And I’m nominating for best teacher in a film Jack Black as Dewey Finn playing Mr. Ned Schneebly in the film School of Rock. So why this portrayal? First of all, playing a longterm sub. Those are so hard to find right now. <Audience laughs> Really hard. And then he teaches using class projects. That’s brilliant. Integrated learning. And then love this. He gives students roles and tasks that are differentiated and align to the specific strengths that each student has.

Kid 2 in School of Rock (12:05):
“I can also play clarinet, you know!”

Jack Black in School of Rock (12:06):
“I’ll find something for you when we get back from lunch. I’ll assign the rest of you killer positions.”

Mandy Jansen (12:13):
And the film culminates in a performance of a collaborative song that they all wrote and performed together. And the students experience that collaboration and teamwork and creating something beautiful is much more important than winning first place. And finally, one of the songs that the character sings in the film is “Math is a Wonderful Thing.” Can’t beat that.

Dan Meyer (12:40):
All right. That’s tough. That’s tough. So here’s the deal. What we have right now is just a quick minute—so Bethany, you ranked, we all ranked our own faves here outta the list of eight. And Bethany put Jack Black in School of Rock a bit higher than Tina Fey in Mean Girls.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:54):
Missed the piano part though.

Dan Meyer (12:55):
And Chris, vice versa here. So Bethany, would you start us off and just make a quick case here for Jack Black versus Tina Fey?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:01):
OK. So here’s what I’m thinking. There’s been rumor that maybe they’re putting less than credentialed people into classrooms to fill teaching gaps. I mean, just rumor. And so here’s this guy who is a rocker. He is not a substitute. He has no teaching training. And yet he goes in there and it turns out that he has the ability to see students’ potential and to recognize their unique abilities. And like Mandy said, he really tapped into, like, he saw them and said, “No, more is possible for you than what you think is possible.” And there’s like real sub anxiety. When you walk in, you can either be like, happy there’s a sub, but I was usually really nervous. Right? And he goes in and he makes that classroom into a home.

Dan Meyer (13:53):
Wow.

Chris Nho (13:54):
Wow.

Dan Meyer (13:56):
Chris, speak on it. Tina Fey needs you. Chris.

Chris Nho (13:59):
Tina Fey. Here we go. I’m gonna argue here that—when was that movie made?

Dan Meyer (14:03):
T is for terrific. I is for Interesting.

Chris Nho (14:06):
Decades ago. And I’m gonna argue that Tina Fey was very progressive for her time. OK, let’s talk about social emotional learning. Hello. <Audience laughs> Love that. Right? Stand up if, I mean, she’s getting people to talk about their emotions. And there’s a curriculum. But let’s just pause, because that’s not what’s really happening in the classroom right now. So social emotional learning, I think she’s, she’s got that a lot. And then number two, you know, if you remember the plot of Mean Girls a little bit, she gets her name written in that Burn Book. Like she sees what they say about her. Restorative justice. Let’s go. <Audience laughs>.

Dan Meyer (14:38):
Whom amongst us. Yes.

Chris Nho (14:40):
You write Mr. Nho in the Burn Book?? Well, your grade book is gonna look like a Burn Book! OK? <Audience laughs> Tina Fey, Tina Fey, she was like, “No, you know, know what? I’m actually gonna spend more time with you. You’re gonna become a mathlete.” And Lindsay Lohan discovers—she drops the most iconic line in all of math education. “The limit does not exist.” Thank you, Tina Fey, for that. For that gift.

Dan Meyer (15:04):
Bless. Bless you. Tina Fey. Wow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:05):
Oh, man. Wow.

Dan Meyer (15:09):
Let’s see what the people say here. I do wanna just add one quick thing about—it’s interesting to me how often in these movies—just kind of go in a little bit, zoom out just a minute—how often it’s a teacher who has no training as a teacher. <Bethany laughs> I am kind of curious why it is. Like, those are the movies that get hot, that get made. Again, these are all kind of a mirror of the taste of the moviegoing public. You know what I’m saying? Like, these, these are not movies—I wanna believe they are made for me and for us as teachers. But they are not. There’s not enough of us to justify, you know, Jack Black’s, you know, M&M budget or whatever he’s got going on in his trailer or whatever. That needs to be for everybody in middle-class America. So what is it about middle-class America that wants to see teaching as something that anybody can do? Just like, you know, just, just run up there in your van and make it happen.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:54):
Magic magically manifests.

Dan Meyer (15:56):
Yeah. Manifest. Yeah. That’s just interesting to me. I just toss that out there as some red meat. Let’s see what the people say here. All right, OK, so you’re ready. Let’s get the bracket going here. The question is Tina Fey versus Jack Black. You had a moment here. Just whisper to someone real fast who you’re going for here real quick. What are you thinking here? <Crowd murmuring> All right. Crowd’s buzzing. Crowd’s buzzing. Would you folks…? All right. Bring it back. Go ahead and make some noise for Tina Fey. <Crowd cheers> OK. OK. Make some noise for Jack Black! <Crowd cheers> Judges say Tina Fey. Tina Fey moves on. All right. All right.

Chris Nho (16:44):
Stunned. I’m stunned. I’m speechless.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:46):
Tina Fey moves on. Wow.

Dan Meyer (16:48):
This has exceeded my expectations in terms of having some fun, but also getting deep, getting deep and real about teaching. I’m into this right here. Yeah. What’s up?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:54):
That’s the goal. That’s the goal. OK. You wanted blood? Oooh, this next matchup might just be where that blood comes forth! OK. Stretch. Warm up. Dan Meyer, who’s up next?

Dan Meyer (17:11):
We’ve got the animated/animatronic round here in the Southeast. And repping the two contestants here, who do we have? We have Allison Hintz, professor, author outta Washington, as one of the two nominators. And the other nominator is one of my heroes, though we’ll find out very wrong about this nomination, Jenna Laib, who’s in the crowd, and I’m trying not to make eye contact here. <Laugh> And here are the two nominations. A couple minutes each. And then we’ll chat about it. And one of us will probably die. But we’ll see how it goes.

Allison Hintz (17:50):
A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, MTL, we began learning from the Jedi Master of Teaching. With the Socratic and experiential approach. With unparalleled mindfulness, compassion, and humility. The best teacher in TV and film, Yoda is. <Audience laughs> Yoda lives the values we share as teachers and learners. He humbly comes alongside us as we construct new knowledge.

Yoda (18:29):
“You must unlearn what you have learned.”

Allison Hintz (18:32):
Yoda allows us to struggle and sees mistakes as critical to learning.

Yoda (18:39):
“The greatest teacher, failure is.”

Allison Hintz (18:43):
Yoda values curiosity and reminds us of the beauty and joy of teachers learning from children.

Yoda (18:52):
“Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.”

Allison Hintz (18:59):
MTL! Join the Resistance! Let the force flow through you in declaring, the best teacher in TV and film, Yoda is.

Dan Meyer (19:18):
Give it up for Allison Hintz! All right! <Audience applauds>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:20):
Alison! And to have that on hand too, which Is kind of perfect.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:26):
Just to be clear, the helmet is not a part of a Zoom background.

Dan Meyer (19:29):
You may evaluate the quality of the nomination based on the costumes of the nominator. That is acceptable. That’s acceptable.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:35):
That is a REAL HELMET.

Dan Meyer (19:35):
All right. The next nominator here, this one is from Jenna Laib, math coach, all-around stellar human. Here we go. This is Ms. Frizzle.

Ms. Frizzle (19:42):
“Single file, class. Our rotten field trip has only just begun.”

Jenna Laib (19:47):
And I think that the best teacher from TV or movies is Ms .Valerie Frizzle from The Magic School Bus. First and foremost, Ms. Frizzle believes in her students. She encourages them to take an active role in their learning, and also to advocate for change in their local community. For example, there’s an episode where there is a logger who’s gonna cut down a rotting log that would benefit the local ecosystem. And the students figure out a way to convince him to leave the log so that all of the animals and the plant life can benefit. She orchestrates really challenging situations for these students, and she allows them the space to ask questions and engage in problem-solving and puzzle their way out of these really, really difficult scenarios. Ms. Frizzle has unmatched pedagogy. She’s bold, she’s innovative, and she’s a major proponent of experiential learning. So these students are heading straight into a storm to learn about weather systems. <Audience laughs> These students are heading into the human body to learn about digestion and disease. They literally get baked into a cake to learn about some chemistry and reactions.

Children in The Magic School Bus (20:54):
“What’s happening?” <Audience laughs> “Why is it suddenly getting so hot?” “Maybe it’s because the floor is on fire!” <Audience laughs>

Jenna Laib (21:02):
This pedagogy is all led by her outstanding catchphrase, which is:

Ms. Frizzle (21:06):
“Take chances; make mistakes; get messy!”

Jenna Laib (21:14):
From her pedagogy to the classroom community that she creates, Ms. Frizzle is an inspiration, and that is why I think that she is the best teacher from TV or film. <Audience applauds>

Dan Meyer (21:25):
Right on! Give it up for Jenna. Give it up for Jenna. All right. I’m gonna take first pass at this. Chris knows my argument already, so I’m gonna take this here. I see some of you are feeling how I’m feeling on this one. OK, so I don’t have tons to say in favor of Yoda. I think it was all true what Allison said. I think the costume was banging. It was awesome. So there’s all that, but I have more to say against Ms. Frizzle than for Yoda.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:48):
No, no, no. Wait a second!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:49):
Let’s let it happen. Bethany, I’ve come prepared.

Dan Meyer (21:54):
I may have made a misstep here, I realize.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:56):
I’ve come prepared.

Dan Meyer (21:56):
So I think Jenna is all correct. I think those clips spoke for themselves. I think that what they add up to, to me, is not “great teacher,” but more “someone who should be locked up.” <Audience laughs> Or at the very minimum, “someone who should be kept away from children.” <Audience laughs> Do not let that woman around children. I mean, check it out. Look, I don’t wanna throw down credentials. I’ve been to grad school, though. I know how this works. When your brain is stressed, you get these—all the cortisol happens. Your working memory shrinks up. You cannot learn when you’re stressed. And those kids, like whatever lesson Ms. Frizzle is teaching by sending them into an oven, I repeat, an oven <audience laughs>, like, they’re not gonna learn anything ’cause their brains are freaking out with stress and fear. OK?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:41):
“What’s happening??”

Dan Meyer (22:43):
“What’s happening? Am I on fire? Well…I’m learning lots, though! Sure is magical!” <Audience laughs> It’s like, “No. Get that woman out of a classroom.” That’s my opening and closing argument. Right? There’s all it is.

Chris Nho (23:01):
All right. All right. All right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:02):
Chris knows.

Chris Nho (23:03):
I’ve got, I’ve got lots to say. First off, I think Dan was in charge of the editing of those video clips. So let’s let that be—you know, let the record stand. <Audience laughs>

Dan Meyer (23:11):
Where’s the lie though? Where’s the lie?

Chris Nho (23:14):
And, you know, second, I think, um—this is the guy up here saying, “I wanna see blood.” You know? And then he has a teacher who literally takes the students into a blood cell and, and you get a little scared! You get a little worried for the students, you know? So I just don’t get it, Dan. This or that. OK? I think Ms. Frizzle—so I actually went to a project-based learning school. I taught at a project-based learning school. And the best thing about it is like, your learning, it doesn’t just stay in this box of math lesson or writing lesson, history lesson. And I think with Ms. Frizzle, like you can’t help but learn things because you are getting baked in a cake. <Audience laughs> Yeah, it is a little scary. And I imagine there’s cortisol and things happening, but guess what? Probably the next episode, they go into their own brains and explore what’s happening. That kind of thing. You know?

Dan Meyer (24:07):
The kids that survived, just be clear. <Audience laughs>

Chris Nho (24:10):
Yeah. OK. Would I want Nora, my three-month-old, to be babysat by Ms. Frizzle? Maybe not. <Audience laughs> But what I have to say about Yoda is Yoda maybe wins the best tutor award. Give it up for Yoda’s Best Tutor Award.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:24):
Oh, yeah…

Chris Nho (24:25):
That ratio’s looking really nice. I could teach the heck outta Luke Skywalker. OK? But 20 little Luke Skywalkers running around. I’m not sure. OK?

Dan Meyer (24:34):
Luke did survive the training, though. <Audience laughs> So that’s awfully nice to say about it. All right, Great words from Chris here. I’m still not convinced. We’ll see how you’re convinced here. Would you whisper to someone where you’re leaning here? Frizzle or Yoda? <Audience buzzing>

Chris Nho (24:47):
I tried. I tried.

Dan Meyer (24:53):
All right. That’s enough of that. Let’s hear it folks. Give it up for Yoda. <Audience cheers> Give it up. Give it up. You. Give. It. Up.

Chris Nho (25:05):
Hey, next. Next.

Dan Meyer (25:06):
All right. All right, all right. <Mutters> Give it up for Ms. Frizzle. <Audience cheers louder> I dunno, it’s pretty close. Call a tie. Maybe Yoda? Yoda by nose? <Audience laughs> All right. All right. Let’s…let me see who’s it. Let’s get the people advancing here. I’ll keep on moving here.

Chris Nho (25:26):
As you’re doing that. Um, Dan ranked Ms. Frizzle last in his personal ranking. And I ranked Ms. Frizzle very high, so we knew this one would be spicy,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (25:36):
<laugh> Spicy it was. Are you having a good time so far? <Audience cheers> So while we love seeing these images and we love seeing these video clips, at the core, what are these things about how teachers are portrayed? And how accurate is that to our real lives? I mean, besides the cake part, right? That my chemistry class did often feel like I was on fire. I was so stressed in it. Um, we’re ready?

Dan Meyer (26:05):
Yep. Great. We’re ready, we’re up here. So the next two nominees are coming to you folks from Tracy Zager, who is the editor of my book, forthcoming in 2027 at the earliest and 2032 at the latest. And also your very own Zak Champagne from Florida, here in the room. Hey, Zak. Zak, let’s see who the nominations are. I’m gonna skip past that, didn’t work out so well for me. Here it is. This is Marshall Kane from the TV show Community.

Michael K. Williams in Community (26:32):
“You two complete your case to the class and let them decide your grades.”

Joel McHale in Community (26:37):
“Professor, thank you.”

Michael K. Williams in Community (26:40):
“It’s not a favor, Mr. Winger. Man’s gotta have a code.”

Joel McHale in Community (26:44):
“Awesome.”

Zak Champagne (26:46):
This is a pitch for an underdog. This teacher didn’t stand on desks or encourage his students to follow their musical passions. In fact, this teacher was seen only in a few episodes of my favorite TV show of all time, Community, Community has set at Greendale Community College in Colorado. And in season three, we get to meet Dr. Marshall Kane, a biology professor whose story is an inspiration to anyone who just takes the time to look and listen. Dr. Marshall Kane slowly earned his PhD while in prison, serving a sentence of 25 to life. In his classroom, he inspires students to love biology, question why LEGO has become so complicated, and randomly pairs his students for group projects to ensure no one feels left out. His greatest performance comes when a group of students believe their yam project was intentionally sabotaged. Dr. Kane took this as an opportunity for some trans-disciplinary real-world learning. So yes, at community college, he felt that a middle-school mock trial was the best way to determine who killed the yam. So let’s all pick the underdog and vote for Dr. Marshall Kane. After all, man’s gotta have a code. <Audience goes “oh!” and applauds>

Dan Meyer (27:53):
Thank you, Zak.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:54):
I have a code.

Dan Meyer (27:56):
Next up is Tracy Zager, nominating an unusual nomination, not a single person, but an ensemble performance. A bunch of people from a movie called Searching for Bobby Fisher. Here we go.

Rapid-fire movie dialogue (28:11):
“What’s that?” “Schleimann attack.” “Schleimann attack? Where’d you learn that from, a book?” “No, my teacher taught me.” “Aw, your teacher. Well, forget it. Play like you used to, from the gut. Get your pawns rolling on the queen’s side.”

Tracy Zager (28:26):
Hey, Math Teacher Lounge. This is Tracy Zager. I’m excited to share my nominee for the best movie teacher. But I have to admit that when I first got the email, I thought, oh, who am I gonna nominate? Because most movies about teachers are highly problematic. They usually have like a saviorism thing, usually white saviors. And I just felt like I couldn’t suggest any of those. So rather than nominate a movie about a single teacher, I wanted to nominate a movie that taught me something about teaching. And that movie is a deep cut. It’s Searching for Bobby Fischer. It’s a movie about a chess prodigy. And what I love about it is that all of the different adults in the movie are in teacher roles in some way. And the student, Josh, the chess player, is a fully realized character, not an empty pail, who pulls from the strengths of each one of those adults while also dealing with their flaws and humanity. And there’s just beautiful synergy in the way he gets the best out of everybody, but also has to overcome some of the barriers that they put in front of him. So I feel like it’s a much more authentic and humbling, but also inspiring, movie about the power of teaching. So if you haven’t ever seen it, check it out. And I can’t wait to see who the other nominees are. Thanks so much.

Dan Meyer (29:53):
Right on. Thank you, Tracy. Wherever you are. <Applause> We’ll move a little quicker here. I’m curious, Bethany, you put Marshall Kane pretty high. I put Bobby Fischer pretty high. What do you have to say about Marshall Kane for us here?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:04):
Well, I just wanna say two things. One is that, like Zak said, he has this code of conduct that he brings in. And he stays true to it no matter what happens. If you saw him in in Community, you know that he held himself up to such high esteem, but not just himself, his students as well. And he took accountability when he felt he had done wrong, even though, well, that’s controversy. But first—oh, the other thing, rest in peace, Michael K. Williams. Oh my gosh. The actor who plays Marshall K. And the thing that I wanna say most of all about it is that he brings his whole self to the classroom. He was in prison for decades. He brings his whole self and says, “This is who I was. This is who I am today. And this is how we can work together as a community.”

Dan Meyer (30:58):
That’s big. I love your comments about code of conduct too. It makes me wish that Ms. Frizzle had a code of conduct also.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:05):
I knew that was coming back!

Chris Nho (31:06):
Two slides ago, Dan. That was two slides ago.

Dan Meyer (31:08):
Can’t let it go. So yeah, I love what you said there. I have no strong beef here either way. Bobby Fischer’s a movie I have loved dearly and can’t be objective about it. I love that the kid in that movie, more than any other movie here, the kid teaches the adults so much through his innocence and how he challenges them and how they’re treating him. Dig all that so much. Will not, will not begrudge anyone any vote either way here. I do begrudge many of you your vote in previous rounds. <Audience laughs> So let’s just, let’s hear. We’re not gonna ask you folks at all to chitchat. We’re gonna move on this one. So would you folks make some noise here for Marshall Kane in Community? OK. OK. And would you make some noise here for Bobby Fischer, the kid in Bobby Fischer, the ensemble? <Audience cheers, applauds>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:56):
Marshall Kane.

Dan Meyer (31:57):
Marshall Kane takes it. All right. Good job, Marshall Kane! All right. Zak’s feeling good. Moving on to the final four here, Zak, right on. OK. Our last—the Northwest Division here is also the large urban district division here. We have a couple different teachers in sets of large urban schools. They’re nominated, they’re advanced by a couple people here. One is past president of NCTM, Robert Berry. And another is Fawn Nguyen, Southern California phenom. Great teacher and friend of lots of us. Um, let’s see who they nominated here. First from Robert Berry, let’s see, who is it here? Janine Teagues from Abbott Elementary.

Abbott Elementary dialogue (32:37):
“Hey, you know what? I’m probably probably gonna be Kenny’s second-grade teacher. Why don’t you just let him get a head start with me today?” “That’d be great.” “Yeah? OK. Hey, Kenny, would you like to be in my group today?” “Not really.” “That’s the spirit.”

Robert Berry (32:54):
My nomination is gonna be Quinta Brunson, the Emmy Award-winning Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary. Janine Teagues is the character. She exemplifies care not only from an affect way, but she also exemplifies care in the things that she does for her students. While the scenes in the show are entertaining, they do represent the challenges that teachers experience when they’re trying to meet the needs of her students. So she goes, goes all out for her students and finding resources. She accesses other people to get resources for her students. But the care shows up in the way that she is mindful of their needs. And so, for me, when I think about teachers and teaching, sometimes we can talk about pedagogy, but sometimes we also can talk about those kind of intangibles that makes a teacher a great teacher. It is apparent from her students that she cares about them, she supports them, and she goes all out 100% for her students. Janine Teagues, Quinta Brunson is, I think, is my choice of the best teacher on television because of the realism and the representation that she brings to this character of what teaching is about. <Applause>

Dan Meyer (34:28):
Right on. Right on. OK. OK. Next up, we’ve got, Fawn Nguyen is nominating Erin Gruwell from Freedom Writers. Here we go.

Hilary Swank in Freedom Writers movie (34:39):
“Look, you can either sit in your seats reading those workbooks or you can play a game. Either way, you’re in here till the bell rings. OK? This is called the Line Game. I’m gonna ask you a question. If that question applies to you, you step onto the line and then step back away for the next question. Easy, right? The first question. How many of you have the new Snoop Dog album? <kids move around> OK, back away. Next question. How many of you have seen Boys in the Hood?”

Fawn Nguyen (35:26):
We all learn about Miss G and her 150 students in the movie Freedom Writers starring Hilary Swank. All great teachers share a common set of traits. They care deeply about their students, have high expectations of them, and always believing wholeheartedly that they will succeed. Great teachers go above and beyond, not because they extraordinary—as Anne Gruwell would always refer to herself as an ordinary teacher—but because extraordinary things happen to people when we believe in them, give them hope, help them write their own story with a different ending. So what stood out for me with Miss G is the scope of her reach, the ever-expanding sphere of her humanity. The red tape she had placed on the classroom floor for the line game shows just how much we all have in common despite our differences. Her students didn’t just learn from her; they learned from one another. If you’d like to be part of this expanding sphere to give voice and hope, please check out Freedom Writers Foundation dot org.

Dan Meyer (36:38):
OK. This right here is a tough one for us. Thank you, Fawn. We collectively ranked—that’s our number one seed and number eight seed, which I hasten to say does not have to do with Erin Gruwell, a person, but the portrayal and the movie. So we don’t have like a whole lot of…there’s not a lot of defense we have to offer here of our eighth seed. And I heard like a kind of a little bit of a murmur over the crowd on Erin Gruwell. So I’m more interested than having a defense back and forth. I’d be curious what you, Bethany, think about what, like, what both movies have to say about like, what teaching is, especially teaching urban schools with black and brown kids and lower-class kids, for instance. They both have, I think, very different things to say about them. Do you have thoughts about that?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (37:19):
Well, it’s interesting because there is some overlap in the sense that the arguments that both Fawn and Robert Berry put out, they both care deeply about their students, right? We’re not gonna argue that. They care deeply. And something that I would say about Miss Teagues is there’s something about the way that she sees not only her classroom, her students, but she sees all of the students in the school as her students. And her idea of resource generation is really helping the teachers to generate resources from their community themselves, and to also realize that the students see themselves reflected in the teachers. And I think that—you know, again, this is not about the real person—but the movie portrayal, and we often see kind of this, for Freedom Writers, we often see this like, Great Last Hope whisked in and her personal sacrifices are what makes these students, these brown and black students’ transformation possible. Because of her sacrifices. Including her marriage. Including, you know, three jobs. And it’s just portrayed in a way that I think really celebrates her sacrifices rather than what the students have already brought—they already come into the room bringing so much as they are, already, without her intervention.

Dan Meyer (38:38):
I love the portrayal of the teacher as part of a community of teachers. Versus in so many of these movies, it’s the teacher as the only person who gets it, you know, oftentimes coming from outside of the world of teaching and everyone’s against them and wants ’em just to fall in line and do the thing we always do, and they’re the outlier. But in Abbott Elementary, it’s like we all rise and we fall together. And teachers are investing in each other’s success, especially with Gregory the longterm sub. We’re all rooting for his, you know, his flourishing. I love that. And yeah. That’s bigtime.

Chris Nho (39:09):
Yeah, I think one interesting thing is that Freedom Writers, when it came out, I think it was like a commercial success.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:17):
Oh, big time. Yeah. It was.

Chris Nho (39:18):
It probably influenced a lot of people to try teaching out. So I do wonder what it says about us, right? Like that we want teaching to fit this narrative, and we wanna be those people who could go into a classroom and <puts on “cool voice”> “Y’all listen to Snoop Dog?” and just have that question HIT. <laughter> And you know, I’ve taught in a large urban school district, and I’ve been that person and I’ve seen other people try and be that person. And I think stepping away from it a little bit, just—it’s a reflection of what people want out of teaching and what they think better education looks like.

Dan Meyer (39:57):
Yeah, yeah. This idea that, so I’m a middle-class person, let’s say, and like, there’s this idea, like, “I know what I would do if I was going into circumstances of impoverishment.” Like I have—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:06):
“All they really need is…”

Dan Meyer (40:07):
…for me to give ’em some real talk and tell ’em, you know, pull their pants up or whatever, listen to Snoop Dog, that kind of thing. And that will be the key. And that’s not how it is in, you know, in Jack Black in School of Rock or Tina Fey school, which are, you know, coded as largely like upper-class or largely white schools. And in those movies, it’s interesting, like how it’s about students discovering themselves, oftentimes. And the central figures are often students. And the students need to reject an oppressive parent figure or something and find themselves. But no, in Freedom Writers, it’s like, “You need to become more like the middle-class teachers who are coming in here to give you this wisdom.” It’s just interesting. I do find it—a pet peeve of mine is when movies portray teachers as only successful if you endure, for instance, the failure of your marriage, or even in Stand and Deliver, for instance, like Jaime Escalante, they depict him having a heart attack. And, like, the job oughta be…easier. <Audience laughs>

Chris Nho (41:04):
Truth.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:05):
That’s the barometer for how much….

Dan Meyer (41:09):
Like, no heart attacks and no divorces related to the job, that kind of thing. I do love how in Abbott—one last thing and we’ll vote and Abbott will win <audience laughs>—is like how, like there, there is a lot of degradation in Abbott, but it’s not a divorce or a heart attack—it’s the petty indignities of asking a student, “Do you wanna hang with me?” And a student says, “Nah, not really.” And that just spoke to me like how it’s not cinematic, but teaching, successful teaching, is like a collection of developing an immunity to students saying, “You’re not hot.” <Laugh> You know? And so I love that. I do wish that there was more depiction of students in Abbott Elementary. It’s a lot of adult stuff. Whatever. Give it up for Abbott, if you would, please. Let’s just get this done here. All right. That’s plenty. That’s plenty. Not gonna ask folks about Freedom Writers. OK, let’s move on to— all right, let’s hear it for Freedom Writers! Yeah. OK, cool. We go, yep.

Chris Nho (42:05):
Plot twist!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:07):
OK, let’s see our final four. Cut and paste. Real time. Real time.

Audience member (42:12):
Where’s Dolores Umbridge?

Dan Meyer (42:14):
Oh….

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:16):
Hey, did you hear that? He said, “Where’s Dolores Umbridge?”

Dan Meyer (42:20):
All right. OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:20):
See, we missed so many. We could…

Dan Meyer (42:21):
So coming up here, we’ve got in the Eastern Conference, Tina Fey and Ms. Frizzle. Y’all know how I feel about that one. Let’s just get this one done. OK, let’s give it up for Tina Fey. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers> OK. All right. Yes! Let’s give it up for menace to children everywhere, the terror, the Ms. Frizzle. <Audience cheers> One more time for Tina Fey. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers> One more time for Ms. Frizzle. Let’s hear it. <Audience cheers>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:59):
Yeah. OK.

Dan Meyer (43:00):
It took ’em one round, but they made the right call in the end. <Laugh>

Chris Nho (43:04):
All it took was 10 minutes of constant Ms. Frizzle-bashing. <Laugh>

Dan Meyer (43:09):
Persevering and problem-solving, that’s my game. Yes. All right. So, do either of you want to influence the audience one way or the other?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:16):
That’s not how I play, Dan.

Dan Meyer (43:18):
Oh, OK. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. You’re good. On Abbott versus Marshall Kane, should we just let ’em have it? All right. All right. Give it up For Abbott Elementary. Not bad. And for Marshall Kane. OK. OK. I hear Zak and five other people. All right, cool. <laugh> Right on. All right. We got our, we got our finals,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:45):
We did it. We made it to two. And we know: We left out a lot of people. Right? And honestly, I kind of wish we could poll like everyone. I mean, think you put it on Twitter, right? Like, who would you pick? But I would say we had a pretty solid eight there. I’m excited to see who… Look at the little crown he put, you guys. Come on.

Dan Meyer (44:05):
I worked hard for you. For you. <Laugh> Yeah. I liked that it was a good bunch that had a lot of different kinds of qualities…and lack of qualities in some cases. And it allowed us that—I shouldn’t knock her while she’s down, and she IS down, it’s true. <Laugh> And I appreciate the conversation we’ve had, what they have revealed overall about teaching and what the world wants teaching to be versus what it actually is or actually should be. I appreciate that. So let’s settle this here. Give it up, if you would, for Abbott Elementary. <Audience cheers> And give it up for Tina Fey in Mean Girls. <Audience cheers>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (44:49):
Wow.

Dan Meyer (44:51):
That was close. I almost give that to Tina Fey.

Audience member (44:55):
Yeah, we do!

Dan Meyer (44:55):
I don’t know. That was a bracket-buster for me right there. Yeah. I lost money in the office pool off that right there. Maybe let’s just find out one more time here. One more time.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:03):
Last time.

Dan Meyer (45:03):
Time to summon up all your conviction on one or the other here. No half-measures right now. All right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:07):
Emmy Award-winning Quinta Brunson.

Dan Meyer (45:09):
Yeah, you saw Robert Berry on that, right? He was like, “Oh, I got one more card to play. Emmy Award-winning.” That’s admissible. That’s admissible. We’ll take that. All right. So…give it up for Abbott Elementary, one last time. <Audience cheers> OK. All right. All right. And give it up for Tina Fey in Mean Girls. <Audience cheers>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:30):
Drumroll, please!

Chris Nho (45:33):
Best teacher is….

Dan Meyer (45:34):
Tina Fey in Mean Girls! Yeah. Not a bad pick.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (45:39):
I love it. And I think, too, I think we’re gonna have a little bit of a more reflective lens than we thought we did when we see depictions of teachers in film and television. And, you know, hopefully we’ll see some new tropes come in, right?

Dan Meyer (45:55):
Yep. Yeah. Every dollar we spend on movies with lousy teachers is just encouraging these people to make more lousy teacher movies, you know? Awesome. Thank you for being here for a live taping—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:06):
Thank you for being here.

Dan Meyer (46:06):
—of our podcast, Math Teacher Lounge, in a hot room. Appreciate that. Yeah, it’s been fun for us to have you here. Um, super-important, super-important final remark: Bethany loves Oprah and Oprah occasionally, in the show—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:18):
Is she coming?! Is she here?!

Dan Meyer (46:19):
Not here! Not here! Calm down. Calm down. Um, but we do have in Oprah fashion, not something—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:24):
Oh. Oh, OK. Oh, that’s, that’s OK. Sorry. I got, had really excited for a second. As if the Amplify playing cards, The Amplify t-shirts being chucked at you at high speed—I did try to get a t-shirt cannon, and that was quickly ruled out <laugh>. They didn’t know about my rocket arm, right?

Dan Meyer (46:46):
Yeah, you got a cannon. <Laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (46:47):
Yeah. Oh, that’s a compliment. Oh, is that a compliment? Thank you, Dan. Thank you. Look under your seat because we have five winners. We wanna thank you for being here in person. We wanna thank the folks who are listening. We wanna thank Amplify. Oh my God. Somebody just pulled off the chair tag. You get to take that chair home with you.

Dan Meyer (47:08):
Does anybody have a prize?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:10):
OK, stand up if you…stand up if you…Yes! Stand up if you have one!

Dan Meyer (47:16):
Free set of classroom dry-erase boards, right here. Congratulations.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:22):
And for you who pulled off the chair tag, I don’t know. We gotta we gotta find something for you.

Dan Meyer (47:27):
Put that in your backpack.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:30):
Thank you again for being here. Thank you. Amplify. Thank you, Desmos. Thank you. Dan Meyer.

Dan Meyer (47:36):
Thank you folks. Chris, thank you buddy.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:38):
Chris! Chris Nho, everybody!

Dan Meyer (47:40):
We will be, we will be at—Bethany and I will be at the booth, if you wanna chit-chat and hang out, sign some stuff. Whatever. You wanna have Bethany sign you, she’ll do that. Um, come on down to the Amplify booth and we’ll—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:50):
We’ll talk to you more about Ms. Frizzle.

Dan Meyer (47:52):
Fun and prizes. I will share with my real thoughts about Ms. Frizzle down there. I’d love to see you. Thanks for being here, folks.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (47:57):
Thanks for listening. Bye.

Dan Meyer (00:00):

We’re recording. What’s up, everybody. This is Dan Meyer with Math Teacher Lounge.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:08):

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. We are so excited to be back. Season Four, Episode Two. Hi, Dan.

Dan Meyer (00:16):

Hey, Bethany, how are you doing today?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:18):

I’m so excited to be talking with you! You know, as we record this, our reunion at NCTM is getting closer and closer.

Dan Meyer (00:28):

The NCTM live show is gonna be bonkers. I don’t think people are ready for it. You think you know what we’re about on MTL from listening to us, but the live show is gonna be outta control. You cannot imagine how many clowns and elephants Bethany wants to have at the live show. We’re still—we’re trying to talk her down from like three to one, but we’ll see.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:44):

All I want is the t-shirt cannon. Because I used to go to these baseball games and they would have a t-shirt cannon. And I thought, I wanna operate a t-shirt cannon! So like, if I could be standing on stage aiming t-shirts at people who are jumping up and down requesting a t-shirt? I don’t know. Doesn’t that sound fun?

Dan Meyer (01:01):

Sounds awesome. High point of my college education was catching a t-shirt. No, it was—it was a burrito. It was a burrito cannon. But I think it was just a t-shirt cannon, but it was a burrito cannon. And I caught a burrito at a game and it was probably the most memorable moment of all of college education for me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:16):

Was the burrito still warm?

Dan Meyer (01:18):

Oh yeah. I think it got—like, I think it might’ve been warm at one point and then it got warmed back up through the muzzle velocity of the cannon. So it was a pretty great system they had going on there. <Laugh> Yeah. <Laugh> Anyway, I’m off topic, but, we’re thrilled to—I’m thrilled to chat with you and we’re thrilled to be listened to by you folks out there in MTL land. In the lounge itself. We got a fun show today.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:40):

So if you listen to Episode One—which if you haven’t, hope you go back and listen to it—if you listen to Season Four, Episode One, you’re gonna hear—we asked Huon, KT, who is this delight of a joyful teacher. We asked her to talk to us about what’s her math bio. And we want to ask all of our guests—like, I wanna go back and ask every single guest we’ve ever had to tell us their math bio.

Dan Meyer (02:06):

Yep.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:06):

Because, while seemingly simple in nature, our students enter our math classroom already having had this relationship with math and these notions about their role in math or what they think about math. And it impacts our school year with them if we’re a teacher. And it impacts our relationship with math as we move through our education and beyond. Right? And I I’m so excited about this question, ’cause I think it also ties into this theme for Season Four, which is joyful math, and diving into “When has math felt joyful? When has it not? Does it feel like—how do we think about how our math bio, our relationship with math, has evolved into a joyful or less joyful place?”

Dan Meyer (02:54):

I get it. And what’s really key here, I think, is that teaching more than other professions is a generational profession. You know what I’m saying? Like, no one is like, “Well, you know, I sold insurance to you and now you’re selling insurance to, you know, my grandkids; that’s amazing!” But people are always posting photos when, like, you teach someone who then becomes a teacher later. Teaching is a generational sort of thing. So the kinds of joyful experiences that we offer or don’t offer students now affect the experiences that students who haven’t even been born yet will have, you know, some 20, 30 years later. That, to me, is a trip. And well-worth exploring, you know, how we got here, mathematically speaking.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:39):

I remember a friend had sent me this image of an assignment that her son got that was asking for their Mathography. They wanted to know about their history of mathematics. And this was their first assignment. And this teacher, I would like to imagine, read them all and used it to inform conversations about students’ relationship with math. And, you know, some of the questions they asked were thinking about whether you consider yourself, quote, unquote, “good at math.” Like “what kind of experiences have you had? What do you like or dislike about math? What is, you know—what do you expect to learn in math this year?” Just asking students to actually pause and examine and reflect on their relationship and then also looking forward to, like, what kind of a classroom community do we wanna create? And I loved that assignment. And yeah, so today’s episode Dan, guess what?

Dan Meyer (04:32):

What’s going on? What’s happening?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:33):

I figured we should ask each other about our math bio.

Dan Meyer (04:39):

I think the people out there would love to know this about us. ‘Cause you know, we’re both awesome. But also what’s really cool here is that like, I don’t know this about you. Like not, not a lot. You know, the folks at Amplify, they kind of assembled me and Bethany together in the same way that record labels assembled pop boy bands, girl bands, that kind of thing, back in the day. You know, grabbing some stars from screen or film and just like throwing ’em together and saying, “All right, now you’re here to perform together.” And so it’s just a really good moment for us to, like, settle back and just know who we’ve been working with for the last three seasons and change here. I love it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:15):

Well, I don’t know. I don’t actually agree with that, Dan. Because don’t you remember? We knew each other beforehand. And while I would like to think of us as…oh, I’ll say One Direction—well, no, One Direction is now defunct. Who’s another band that got formed by one of those shows and is still together and still—

Dan Meyer (05:33):

BTS! K-Pop, you know! Let’s go!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:35):

K-pop. BTS.

Dan Meyer (05:38):

Let’s go, Bethany <laugh>.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:39):

So can we incorporate some K-pop into the NCTM Math Teacher Lounge live episode? Don’t answer now. Don’t answer now. OK. So not only are we gonna share our math bios, but we want to encourage you listeners to share your math bio with somebody in your life. It could be a child in your life, maybe talking to your kiddo about what was it like. What was math like for you? It could be a student that you have. It could be a partner, a friend, a parent. I mean, the sky’s the limit. Share your math bio. And most of all, share with us. We wanna hear about your math bio and you can share it with us at Twitter, at MTLShow, or in our Facebook group, Math Teacher Lounge.

Dan Meyer (06:26):

Stop on by, please. All right. I’m gonna just share like, just a couple of quick, signposts. Not the full bio. Gotta leave them wondering about something here. But here’s a few quick highlights and lowlights of my math bio and how, maybe, it made me the teacher that I was and the educator I am. Is that cool?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:44):

Wait, I didn’t even, I didn’t ask you yet.

Dan Meyer (06:46):

Ask me what?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:47):

Hey, Dan!

Dan Meyer (06:49):

Is there like a magical word? Like, what’s your math bio? <Laugh> Oh, go for it. No, no, that’s right. They won’t know what I’m talking about. Why is he talking about his math bio? Bethany—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:57):

That whole lead-in that we just gave? They might not know.

Dan Meyer (07:00):

Yeah. We just talked about math bios for the last 20 minutes. But yeah, they might not know what we’re—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:04):

<laugh> So Dan, why don’t you go first? ‘Cause I know you were gonna ask me to go first, but why don’t you go first? Dan? What’s your math bio?

Dan Meyer (07:12):

Oh, wow. Well, thank you for the formal invitation to share my math bio, Bethany Lockhart Johnson. So, I’ll just share—I just wanna share a couple items here, not the full history. Gotta leave ’em—leave a little mystery in there, you know what I’m saying? But here’s a few highlights and lowlights, and I think what it means for me as an educator. So, I was homeschooled for eight years. That was big—did a lot of math learning on my own. Couple of lowlights from that, a lot of highlights, in terms of just like being able to, like, learn at my own rate and just jump on ahead and pursue different wacky things. But I tried to switch into public school in fourth grade and I lasted, um, four hours. I didn’t even go to class. I enrolled and then it was like, boom, I was out of there. Because we went to the school; we met the teacher, saw the room, very nice person and place. But I got the homework assignment and the homework assignment was gibberish. I had no idea what to do and such was this feeling of just, like, despair and hopelessness, I was like, I cannot be a part of this. I remember the assignment. It was about identifying scalene, isosceles, and equilateral triangles. I’ll tell you this: I am quite good at that now. But at the time, like, I didn’t know what those words meant. And you know, at that moment we had Encyclopedia Britannica, could not Google this or even Ask Jeeves or AltaVista this so well back then. It just—it was an entry moment of failure and realizing that so much of math is like a, kind of a social kind of construct. And if you’re not part of that social circle, what can you do? So that was a bummer. Another bummer was eighth-grade math, learned it all by way of videotape. You know, put in the tape and watch—not gonna say the person’s name and not this person’s fault—but it was just like watching someone work on a whiteboard. Kind of a precursor to Khan Academy, kind of a drag. Went to high school—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:02):

Wait, wait, wait, wait. We were—I’m not ready to jump to high school. Wait. Can you pause for just a second?

Dan Meyer (09:06):

Yeah. Rock on.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:07):

I just need you to go back to the triangle thing. So in that moment, what did that mean for you that you had had all these experiences with math and then you encounter math in a completely different sphere, a public school, and it did not have a connection or meaning to you because prior to that, it sounds like it was pretty positive. Right? Explore these things you’re curious about; there’s not, like, a level you need to stick with…

Dan Meyer (09:33):

Yep, yep. Yeah. I think that’s right. Maybe it was a little bit of a classic, like, “Oh, I didn’t have a growth mindset; my mindset was like, ‘Oh, I’m good at math because I am, you know, born that way,’” and all of a sudden, that identity was, you know, thrown into question. And, you know, my foundation was all of a sudden quite shaky. And yeah, that’s—you know, I think I taught a lesson recently where I was like, “Hey, this whole thing with a less-than or equal-to sign and a greater-than or equal-to sign, like what those signs are: it’s just, it’s language. And if it’s confusing to you, it’s not because you’re bad at math; it’s ’cause language is oftentimes confusing ’cause people have to agree on it.” So I dunno, that sort of thing is kind of filtered in, filtered back in periodically, some sympathy for like how a lot of math is like just socially agreed upon ways of working with, you know, numbers, shapes, patterns, that kind of thing.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:20):

OK.

Dan Meyer (10:21):

Anyway.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:21):

1. And in this home school—I have a lot of questions about that, but I’ll stick to one—were you in a community of people that you talked about these math ideas with? Were you homeschooled solo? You have a sibling, so I think you were together, right?

Dan Meyer (10:39):

Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a twin sister. So we were, you know, like, right on with each other the whole way through there. And yeah, so we had—but it wasn’t, it wasn’t like a—it was a lot of individual work, with my flavor of homeschooling.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:54):

1. Got it. And the tapes—wait, before you go to high school, the tapes, the VHS tapes, which I’m just loving this image—

Dan Meyer (11:02):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:02):

Was that a positive experience? Was that because that was an area of math that whoever was homeschooling you wasn’t that comfortable with? Why was it that route for the tapes, and what was that? Was that joyful for you?

Dan Meyer (11:15):

Yeah, definitely not joyful. Yeah, it was like, if you had questions, you couldn’t really ask them of the VHS tape. It didn’t work out so well in that way. And it was a lot of operational-type math. It was, you know—there was no give and take; it was all kind of take. From the video teacher. And yeah, I was doing that because my homeschool teacher, my mom, who is very smart in lots of areas, did not have the math knowledge or confidence, especially to help with math at eighth grade. And that was a big reason why, flash-forward to the next year, went to high school.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:48):

Nice segue. OK.

Dan Meyer (11:50):

<laugh> You caught up to high school…I encountered just like four years of just crazy-good, just bonkers-good math teachers who just really changed a lot for me. Especially, Mr. Bishop and Mr. Cavender, very cool folks who did a lot. And especially, I think Mr. Bishop and Cavender both modeled for me what curiosity from a knowledgeable adult looks like. Like someone who, you know, now I can say to myself, “Oh, they were kind of like putting on an act of being very curious about answers they were hearing for the 2000th time from a student,” let’s say, but what a powerful experience that was for me to feel like, “Oh, wow, my thoughts are interesting to someone besides myself.” I got like, maybe it’s two real highlights that I’ll just point to, from my math bio that made me the math teacher and person that I am. Let’s see here. Maybe three, if you you’ll indulge me. One is just like the idea that you could do math wherever you have your brain, a pencil and a paper. And so I remember like in high school, I was in church with my family and kind of a little bit bored of whatever’s going on. And I just had the Bolton and I like drew a pentagon, a regular one, then a hexagon, a regular one, and kept on drawing, like adding sides to the shape. And it was like, it was becoming a circle. And, you know, I was able to take the area of each of those shapes and say, you know, “What happens as you send the number of sides to infinity?” And watch as the formula for area of a circle, Pi R squared, popped out. And it was kind of a literal religious experience, in that moment, just like, “Wow, like my brain’s so cool and math is so cool and paper and pencil’s so cool.” And so there’s that. Just that kind of experience was pretty awesome. And then I would just say like, I’ve had some really fantastic experiences with math in the world itself. Stuff like—let’s see, this is gonna invite more questions from Bethany, probably, maybe I should avoid—I got, I have a Guinness—I have a Guinness world record that’s almost 20 years old. This Guinness world record is—it’s old enough to drive basically at this point. And almost old enough to drink. But like it was—it was a record for chaining the longest paper clip chain together in 24 hours. And the only way I was able to break that record was through mathematics. Where, like, I would be finishing a box of clips. And I would say to my buddy who was there, “I just finished a box of clips.” And that person would type in the number of clips that I had just done. And then a mathematical formula that I had created would tell me how many—how long the chain was at that point. It was being rolled around a spool. And like, it’s just like, wow. So math just made this possible. You know, math revealed that the record I was trying to beat was beatable, because I did the math on it. It was, like, thousands of feet long in 24 hours. And other folks might be like, “Oh, like, that’s that’s huge!” But me, I was like, “All right, let’s divide this out. You know, divide by 24 hours in a day, divide by 60 minutes an hour, 60 seconds in a minute. Oh, that’s like one clip every four seconds. That’s really slow.” You know, think about that <counts aloud>, “Clip, two, three, four. Clip two, three…” It was just slow. So math helped me, you know, wreck that record. Which to my knowledge still still stands. Don’t get any ideas, Math Teacher Lounge Folks! Is this news to you, Bethany? You haven’t blinked in the last, like, five minutes. I’m curious if this is new.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:20):

It is news to me. And I have so many questions. Because OK, if four seconds was slow, so then what was your like—so then I’m assuming a hundred clips per box? Like, what was the rate, you know, per box? How long did it take you to complete a box? What did this friend like? Did this friend stick with you for the whole 24 hours? Did you really do it for 24 hours? Or once you beat the record, did you rest? How did you account for biological function? Like, needs? Like a restroom?

Dan Meyer (15:51):

<Interrupting> Like what?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:51):

Eating.

Dan Meyer (15:51):

Like what, Bethany? OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:52):

Um, Sleep.

Dan Meyer (15:55):

So yeah, maybe we dive into some of the specifics in a different time.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:59):

Just tell me one of ’em. Tell me one.

Dan Meyer (15:59):

I’ll just say. So as to discourage other Math Teacher Lounge listeners from taking this on—back off of the record, folks!—this was back in college, so I was a little more limber back then. But I did one—I think it was 1.8 seconds per clip. For an entire 24 hours. Just like, so just like think about it, would you? If you’re gonna step to me on this one, just think about that, OK? And then, and then, you know, make an informed decision.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:28):

Wait. Wait, wait, I just wanna tell you one thing. I’m picturing somebody with a straw, and like, giving you water as you keep clipping. I’m picturing, like, music, I…

Dan Meyer (16:37):

That’s not far. That’s not far. That’s not far from—yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:40):

So many questions! OK. Go on. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Go on. This is your bio.

Dan Meyer (16:44):

We gotta, I gotta wrap this up. I wanna hear your bio. But, like, I would just say like this move to this sense that math is actually a thing that’s useful for more than just a grade; it’s useful for more than just, you know, the societal, you know, adulation that comes from being a math nerd. That kind of thing. And so that, I think that affected a lot of math teaching for me. And, if I gotta, like, summarize math teaching itself in a journey, it went from like, “Hey kids, aren’t I awesome?” to, “Hey kids, isn’t math awesome?” to “Hey kids, aren’t you awesome?” And like that journey was facilitated by lots and lots of people, you know, a lot of personal growth, but at this point, at one point I was like, “Hey, math can help you get records and whatnot. It’s really useful.” And now I’m like, “Wow, your brain’s just doing just really interesting things. I can help you understand how interesting those things are, and maybe make them more interesting, or interesting in a different way, with some help here.” Let’s put a pin in that. That’s the math bio.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (17:50):

1. So I have no doubt that if you ask someone in your life, listeners, for their math bio, that you will discover things about them that you never knew. Literally the questions that I have…I have so many question. And Dan is very good at, you know, bringing me back. Bring me back, like, come on, come on. But I just wanna say, overall, your journey seems pretty joyful. It seems pretty joyful. It seems pretty full of confidence. I don’t wanna say “ego” in a negative way, but I wanna say you were buoyed by these experiences that allowed you to feel like math was a place for you to thrive.

Dan Meyer (18:36):

Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (18:36):

Where you could try out things. You could try it out and just, “I could do that!” Right? Like…your relationship just felt very, like…you felt like you had autonomy, agency, perhaps much like you, you operate in this world. Dan, is that, is that right <laugh>?

Dan Meyer (18:54):

Yeah, I think it’s fair to say. And without telling too much of her story, my twin sister with whom I share most things, including genetics, you know—she had a very different experience in math early on. She’s brilliant. She’s a doctor. And not, you know, the book kind of doctor that I am, but like a real, you know, medical doctor. She’s brilliant. But we were—we encountered different messages about who math was made for, early on in, you know, in our entire math learning. And she—we both digested the messages that we were sent, and took, you know, different, different paths because of them, for sure.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:31):

Funny how that works. I thank you, Dan. I do. For in all sincerity, I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that it’s exciting to hear how it influenced your teaching. It feels like you want to cultivate those experiences for your students. And I’ve been in the room when you’ve presented; I was in a room where you taught a class live. It felt like you were making space for the students to have these aha moments. And it feels like in your work at Desmos, and now Amplify, you’re trying to create these products that allow folks to recreate these amazing math moments. Right? And that it’s for everyone and that it’s accessible and it can be very positive. I feel like I have this new perspective on kind of the energy you bring to your teaching. So thank you for sharing that.

Dan Meyer (20:24):

Yeah. Been a pleasure. Thanks for your questions here, Bethany. And it’s been—it’s been fun to reflect on it. And I do—I do feel very lucky in lots of ways. Privileged. Lucky. I know, like—I think the world has been set up for my success in lots of ways, as who I am. But I do just…yeah, I feel—I want more people to experience what it’s like when you walk into a math classroom and it’s like, “Hey, this place is for you. You have interesting thoughts about this. Let’s get ’em out.” So that’s awesome. I would love to hear about you and how you…I mean, we have taught different kinds of kids. You know, I taught kids who I think were somewhat set in, they’re a little bit more solid at secondary in who they are as a math learner. Like “I know who math is and who I am with math.” And I’m really excited to hear what your math bio allowed you to do with students who were perhaps open to the idea that they are very mathematical or at least not yet closed off to those possibilities. So, yeah. What are some of the high, the, you know, the high and low water marks of the making of Bethany Lockhart Johnson, math teacher? <Laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:24):

Thanks for asking, Dan. <Laugh> I’ve shared aspects of my math bio because I think it really informs the way that I talk to people about math and think about math. And I like to share it because I want folks to consider their own journey with math, as we like engage with problem-solving and sense-making and thinking about the students in our classroom. My dad is a math and computer science major. So he had a computer very early on. I wish he had invested in Apple early on when he had like one of the first Apple computers ever. And, sorry, dad, but it’s true. I do wish you had done that.

Dan Meyer (22:10):

I’m sure he does too.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:11):

Oh, he does. So math and computers and conversations about counting, you know, it felt like it was kind of just normal. Like it was around me. And I went to Montessori, which is a private school that—oh, they have some public Montessori—but it’s very self-directed. And so we would have these kind of charts, these goals for the day that you explored. And so we would explore math in very, I don’t know, very organic ways, with these natural materials. And I feel like I excelled at math, but it wasn’t something that I was conscious of. It was just like, “Oh, well, yeah. Math, it’s, you know, something we do.” And then when I went to—when I left Montessori in fourth grade, I remember that year being a lot of like repetition. I was like, well, we did this. We covered this. And except for the mission project that we hadn’t done, that was all new. And that’s it. For another time I’ll share about that. But <laugh> then, they actually, I was moved with a group of students to the fifth grade math class, ’cause we had already done the work that we were doing. And so, it wasn’t that it felt like it came easily, but it did make sense. What we were doing made sense. And then it all kind of changed. There was a lot of change in my family. There was, like, missed school time. And we moved and I went to a new middle school and I was in this environment with students who—it was like an accelerated program. And so I was in this environment with students who were pretty competitive with each other. And I remember going—and I was not from of a competitive environment; like Montessori is not competitive. It’s not about that.

Dan Meyer (24:02):

Right. Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:02):

It’s—it was very strange to me that I would be competing against anyone, even competing against myself. And I, you know, knew how to set goals. But it was a different level of energy. And I felt like, because I wasn’t competitive in that nature, I felt like that kind—I felt on the outside of a lot of the energy. Besides the regular, like, middle-school feeling outside of things. And I remember the first friend that I made. Hi, Susan! She had said to me, this was like maybe our second week of school, she’s like, “Oh, at lunchtime, come with me to math club.” And I was like, “OK.” And I remember walking into that room and I had no idea what was going on. And so that was one of the first times where I was just like, “Whoa, I have absolutely no concept of what they’re talking about or what.” These are my peers. I felt very—it was very—it was strange. It was strange. I was like, “This doesn’t feel like a space for me at all.” When I think ordinarily I was kind of excited about the idea of going to math club at lunch, you know? And over middle school, I kind of just got progressively more and more behind. It started with missing some work and then missing more and then checking out. And, you know, the problem was that I really made it about myself. That, like, it wasn’t something that I was then good at or could do. When really it was that well, pre-algebra, I was having a really hard time in like the rest of my life. And so I wasn’t real present in that class. And so when I got to algebra, it didn’t make a whole lot of sense. And then if I missed Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, well, Thursday is gonna be hard, you know? And, it just got progressively harder and harder. So I had this great idea that between eighth grade and ninth grade, I was going to take this accelerated geometry class. ‘Cause that was the ninth grade class, it was geometry. And I would take it. It was like geometry in three weeks or something. So then when I entered high school, I would’ve gotten this like jumpstart. But I wish I had said, “Oh, I’ll take this, and then in ninth grade I’ll take geometry.” So like I’ve already kind of gotten a preview of the material. But instead I went to the 10th grade math, which was like intermediate algebra, trigonometry. I had absolutely no clue what was going on. And I had a very, very difficult time and I wasn’t ready for that class. But it was exacerbated by the fact that this teacher felt very free to let the freshmen in that class know that they shouldn’t be in that class. That this class was for 10th graders.

Dan Meyer (26:49):

Oh wow. Oh, wow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:51):

And we had a rather contentious relationship. And I will never forget that we were in the hallway, and he says to me, “You don’t belong here.” And I’ve talked to—I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine about her experiences with this teacher and she has the fondest memories.

Dan Meyer (27:13):

Wow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:14):

She—in fact, almost everyone I’ve spoken with, you know, if we are talking about past teachers or, “Oh, what was that class like?” I mean, they just have these wonderful memories! And for me, my sense of like belonging was already so on a tight rope anyway, that to have this adult, this teacher, tell me, “You do not belong here,” just crushed me. And in hindsight, I think he was saying like, “This class is too hard for you.” I mean, maybe. <Laugh> But all I heard was “You don’t belong here.” And I extrapolated it to connect to math and to anything having to do with math in general. And it just got worse and worse through high school in the world of math. My next math class was even—I had to repeat that class, and still didn’t understand what was going on, and felt more out of place, and, you know, it’s one of those things that I just kind of had started to accept that, I guess, math isn’t for me. I guess I’m just not a math person. Or whatever these stories are that I started to create and build and find evidence for around me that was informing that this wasn’t for me. And I had always done well in school. I was in, you know, accelerated classes. I felt like I was capable of problem solving. And yet in math, I just felt like I had all of this evidence saying that I didn’t belong there. And so when I went to college, I took whatever two math classes were—you know, I was in performing arts and then I did ethnic studies as well. And I remember you had to take two math classes that were GEs. There were these classes that if you don’t wanna deal with math, you go take those classes. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’ll take that. I’ll take that.” The gulf widened, you know? <Laugh> And I didn’t feel like anxiety when I had to do things like balance my checkbook or navigate math in everyday spaces. It was just, it would never occur to me that I would like seek out opportunities to engage with math or think about it or talk about it.

Dan Meyer (29:35):

That is—yeah, that’s just so wild, how, I don’t know, like it’s often, from the student’s perspective, it is them in a vacuum with math, and the two of them interact and decide if, you know, if they’re right for each other. But from the grown-up perspective, it’s just, you know, it’s a little bit clearer that your story with math was not just you in math, but you with, you know, various external things happening. With family, various teachers playing their different roles—sometimes, you know, really tragic and horrible roles—and then like the compounding mathematical debt that it feels like you were kind of building up, as challenges in one year didn’t get resolved and moved into the next year and so on. And all that makes me wonder—it makes me, like really, really scared, first of all, because I would bet that your teacher might not even remember that moment, that for you is part of just a pivotal moment in your math story, and how many kids have I played—have I been a part of their story in that way and wouldn’t even recall? You know what I’m saying? So that’s a scary part. And then also I’m just wondering, like, how can we, how can we help kids who are in those moments recognize that, “Oh, this kid is like absent a bunch,” and give them more resources to be successful rather than say, “Well, you just gotta try harder now.” Those are things I’m wondering, hearing your story. Thank you for sharing that. I’d love to know more about how you then became a teacher and what all that did for you as you helped students.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:06):

Well, but to answer what you were saying, it wasn’t that I wasn’t—I was always absent physically, but at least like mentally at that point, because it had become so difficult. It didn’t make sense to me. So I was just really checked out in math class, you know? So in hindsight, you know, as a teacher, for sure I can look back, and especially hearing these stories and these experiences my friend had with this teacher and just like chalks up as one of like her most favorite teachers ever! And you know, he clearly did a great job for so many students. But for me, and I think for some people, they would’ve taken those challenges and, you know, it would have fortified them in a different way or something. But for me, I took it upon myself to mean certain things about myself and about my ability and what I was capable of. And so I think, I think in some ways, you know, yeah, it’s all, it’s all interconnected. You know, when your students walk in the door, they’re not this—the things that are impacting them in their life are coming into the room with them. And I don’t think we can take that for granted and think, “Well, if they just focus hard enough…”

Dan Meyer (32:21):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:23):

So let’s go back to my love of Oprah. You know, Oprah talks about living your best life. And something I really appreciate about Oprah is that she encourages you to examine, like, sticking points, right? Like she doesn’t just say, “Well, this…just pretend nothing ever happened, and everything’s fine!” You know, she really talks about making time for reflection. And I kind of got mad that anytime I thought about math, or math schooling came up. Or, you know, whatever, any time that came up that I just felt UGH about it. And I felt like a failure. And I’m like, “You know what, what if I took a math class? And I’m an adult at this point. I’ve graduated. I have—I’ve left college. I have my degrees. But I said, “What if I took a math class?” So I went down to, the city college and I found out that you have to take this exam, like a placement exam. And I went and took the placement exam. And I remember it’s one of the responsive tests where if you get it right, the next question’s a little harder. And so I’m taking it, panicking, because it’s getting more like…I just, you know. And I remember it placed me in like, whatever, Algebra Something, this class that was far more advanced than I thought I should be in. And I was like, there’s been a mistake! You know, and I went to the counselor and said, you know, “I got these results, but I couldn’t answer a lot of the questions on the test.” She’s like, “No, no, no, that’s how it works.” So I go take this class and the class was hard. And I decided that I was just gonna keep showing up. And every day before class, I kid you not, they had a little math…it was like a math center where you could go in and they had a bunch of tables and you’d sit at the table and you could sit and do your work or whatever. If you had a question, you walked up and put your name on a clipboard and then somebody would come and help you. So I did that, every single—like before every single class I would go in. I’d sit there. I’d do the work. I’d go. And I’d get help. Like somebody would walk over and you know, some kid for whom they’re like this…you know, they’re math—it might be you, Dan! It could be you! It could have been you! You know, would walk over and be like—

Dan Meyer (34:38):

Yeah, I was in Help like that. Naw, it’s awesome. Love, love those people. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:42):

And you know, I did it. And I did so well in the class. I did exceedingly well in the class. And I said—

Dan Meyer (34:50):

Take that! Take that, everything! Every other math experience!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:53):

I said, what?

Dan Meyer (34:55):

Yeah!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:55):

Wait a second.

Dan Meyer (34:56):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:57):

And it was that I was present. I was not afraid to look at what didn’t make sense. And if something didn’t make sense, it didn’t mean there was something wrong with me. Whaaaaat?

Dan Meyer (35:10):

Yeah. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:10):

So I was just in such a different space. And then I took another math class and that class was even harder. And I did the same thing where I went to the little lab and, you know, and it just buoyed me. And it made me realize that, like, this story, that my experience with it was very powerful and that was a real lived experience, but that it didn’t have to define my relationship with math. But then! I decided I wanted to go back to school to become a classroom teacher. And I totally—this was a couple years after that math class experience. So now, you know, I’m healing my relationship with math through basic positive experiences, da, da, da, you know, doing other work. But fast-forward, for a whole number of reasons, decided to become a classroom teacher. And I freaked out. All of my—like, I’m studying for the GRE and the CSET and all the things you have to the hoops you have to jump through to apply to the masters program and the credential program. And I freaked out. I was so close to quitting, Dan. Because I was convinced that the reason I couldn’t be a classroom teacher is because I wasn’t capable in math. Like I was—it was all that resurfaced. And even though I now had evidence to say something different, to the contrary, it was still so visceral. And I was so scared. But I passed that Math CSET.

Dan Meyer (36:47):

Get it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:47):

I did well enough on the GRE—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:50):

Yes!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:50):

You know, I finished my credential. I worked really, really hard. I had to work so hard in my student placement, when I was student teaching for a fifth-grade class, ’cause I felt like, “Oh my God!” I mean, now I could do the mathematics, but I couldn’t TEACH it to someone, you know? But I had amazing professors at UCI, and my math professors really like just—and my mentor teacher! shout out to Jennifer! shout out to Phil!—these amazing mentor teachers who just loved teaching and who loved—like you said, you have these teachers in your life who you got to see the way that they listened to students. They taught me about that love of listening to students. And then I fell in love with, you know, CGI, cognitively guided instruction, and started learning all about all of these educators who just wanna learn from students’ thinking. And it was just so powerful. And I realize as a kindergarten teacher that I have this really special role in helping to create space for a positive school experience. Like we get to talk about—I talk about my students as mathematicians; they’re writers; they’re thinkers; they’re problem-solvers. And I also want to make space for parents. Some of them, this is their first kid in kindergarten, and they brought all of their experiences, a lot of it negative, that they had had with mathematics. So I felt like it was such an exciting opportunity to help show parents how they could have conversations about math with their students. That also, I hope helped heal their own anxiety with mathematics.

Dan Meyer (38:41):

Right, right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:42):

Like, I’ve not even scratched the surface of math learning. But I just have such a changed perspective and relationship with math. And I just fell in love with the sense-making. And I fell in love with the journey of it. I still experience math anxiety about a wide variety of things, but I do love it. And I feel like there’s a space for me in relationship with math. And that really excites me.

Dan Meyer (39:09):

Yeah. Wow. Listen to that folks. We, we don’t deserve her! Bethany Lockhart Johnson! She got some math game and could have gone off there and, you know, become an accountant or something. And she chose to hang with kids and their parents. That’s so wild that you’re like rehabbing parents and their self-conception about mathematics at the same time. I think that is so cool.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:32):

Well, thanks Dan Meyer. I gotta tell you, I don’t know when or if I’ve ever shared that much of my math story. So there is a certain amount of vulnerability there. But thanks for listening. And I’m glad that, you know—I think there’s space for us to talk about these things that we care deeply about, but that can be really complicated.

Dan Meyer (39:56):

Yes. Yes. And I love how you you’ve really sharpened the point on what I feel like I know in my brain, but not my body all the time: That individual teachers are huge. Like, individual teachers, and individual moments of teaching, are just not something to play with. You know, like that kid that’s in fifth grade having a tough time, like there could be a month or a day-long period where all of a sudden, like, you’re just like, “Oh yeah, I’m back in the mix; like, me and math are still buddies.” And there’s also like moments that you had, where like one casual word from a teacher can just really put a huge wedge between you and a discipline that needs and wants you and your intellect in it.That’s a really powerful testimonial. Not just for math, but for teaching, your teaching bio.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:43):

I agree with you. And I also, I also…you know, I think we can’t put this—we are human. Teachers are human. And so I’m sure there’s things I’ve said to students. Twenty-second story: a student stapled his finger in my class. <Laugh> And I remember holding his hand and saying, “Why did you do that?” And I wasn’t yelling at him, but it was like, I am sure the panic in my face…like, that’s what he’s gonna remember about kindergarten. Right? <Laugh>.

Dan Meyer (41:19):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:20):

That. He will remember that. He won’t remember the really cool city project we did. He’s gonna remember his teacher holding his hand, in his face: “Why did you do that?”

Dan Meyer (41:30):

Yeah. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:30):

You know, so we’re human. And yes, it was awful that that teacher said that to me. There were a thousand other ways that he could have said whatever it was he was thinking. And that did deeply wound me. But despite his influence—because teachers do have a lot of power and I think they need to examine that power, ongoing—it still doesn’t have to define us. So I don’t wanna put this pressure, like—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:55):

Sure.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:56):

“So never ever say anything negative!” You know, we’re human.

Dan Meyer (42:00):

I feel like that kid is currently on some office-supply podcast talking about “your office-supply bio” and saying, “Let me tell you how I first got really freaked out by staples. Here’s the deal: I only use paper clips. And here’s why.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:15):

“Here’s why.” But then—callback!—he’s going to stumble upon THIS podcast and think, “And because I’m so adept with paper clips, I can beat that record!”

Dan Meyer (42:30):

Though—aaay! whoa! Settle down!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:31):

BOOM.

Dan Meyer (42:31):

Don’t get any ideas, kid. No way. Uh-uh. I don’t like that at all. That’s not what—that’s not what I want to have happen here. No, thank you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:41):

Well, I’m spent, Dan. I need a nap.

Dan Meyer (42:45):

Yeah. I need a box of Kleenex. I need a nap. I need a—yeah, for sure, a baba. Uh-huh. Definitely. Hey, so look, I’m not expecting you folks out there in the lounge to kind of give us the same depth or breadth. You know, we are here, of course, for your entertainment. Feast on our stories and dramas. But I would love to know at some point, like, what are a few, a few moments that really came to define you mathematically? Came to influence you as a teacher? I think we would do really well for each other to understand that about all of our processes. So yeah, I would just toss in a plug in for Twitter, @MTLShow, or Facebook, Math Teacher Lounge; it would be fantastic to hear from you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:24):

Thanks so much for listening.

Dan Meyer (43:25):

Thanks, folks. Bye now.

Please refer to the following Keeping the Big Ideas at the Center documents to review specific lesson designs and alignments with the Big Ideas for each grade level.

• Kindergarten
• Grade 1
• Grade 2
• Grade 3
• Grade 4
• Grade 5
• Grade 6
• Grade 7
• Grade 8
• Algebra 1
• Math 1

Click here to see how the Big Ideas are represented within the K–8 core lessons.

Please refer to the following Amplify Desmos Math California alignments to the Standards for Mathematical Practice, provided by grade level.

• Kindergarten
• Grade 1
• Grade 2
• Grade 3
• Grade 4
• Grade 5
• Grade 6
• Grade 7
• Grade 8
• Algebra 1
• Math 1

Each unit begins with an “Explore” lesson, which allows students to engage with authentic exploration in low-floor, high-ceiling tasks. These tasks are designed to promote an inclusive and differentiated learning environment—allowing all students to access basic mathematical concepts, while offering advanced exploration and problem-solving for those ready for more complex work.

Our innovative course-level investigations are designed to facilitate multi-part exploration. Students grapple with Big Ideas, diving deep into key concepts that encourage comprehensive understanding. Data science is infused into the approach, giving students a solid foundation from which to interpret and apply data-driven solutions. They’re also encouraged to understand and appreciate the interrelatedness of Earth’s environmental systems via our lesson’s focus on the Environmental Principles and Concepts (EP&Cs).

Amplify partnered with the English Learner Success Forum (ELSF), a national nonprofit organization that advocates for high-quality instructional materials that are inclusive of multilingual/English learners (ML/ELs). ELSF reviewed Amplify Desmos Math California, and provided directional guidance and feedback to ensure that the program reflects their research-based instructional strategies for multilingual/English learners.

Amplify Desmos Math California recognizes the diverse language needs of our students and is designed to be inclusive. Each lesson in the program features a parallel language activity, designed to be available to all students, in the form of teacher guidance and student activities. The activities in the Math Language Development Resources have level ELD differentiation to support all levels of ML/ELs. This approach ensures that all students, regardless of their language skills, can participate fully, grasp the material, and excel in their mathematical journey.

Our Multilingual Glossary includes, in addition to Spanish, nine languages: Simplified Mandarin, Tagalog, Vietnamese, Arabic, European French, Russian, Brazilian-Portuguese, Haitian-Creole, and Urdu.

Amplify Desmos Math California will include Spanish student-facing materials beginning in the 2026–27 school year.

Each unit begins with an “Explore” lesson, which allows students to engage with authentic exploration in low-floor, high-ceiling tasks. These tasks are designed in such a way that all students can access the basic mathematical concepts, but they also offer possibilities for advanced exploration and problem-solving for those ready for more complex work, promoting an inclusive and differentiated learning environment.

Our innovative course-level investigations are designed to facilitate multipart exploration. Students grapple with Big Ideas, diving deep into key concepts that encourage comprehensive understanding. Data science is infused into the approach, equipping students with a strong foundation in interpreting and applying data-driven solutions. The Environmental Principles and Concepts (EP&Cs) are also a focus of our investigations, enabling students to understand and appreciate the coherence and interrelationship of Earth’s environmental systems.

In building Amplify Desmos Math California, we partnered with the English Learner Success Forum (ELSF) to provide guidance on our multilingual/English learner support for teachers. ELSF is a national nonprofit organization that advocates for high-quality instructional materials that are inclusive of multilingual learners. ELSF’s guiding documents reflect research-based instructional strategies that are critical to curriculum design and were created by researchers, linguists, and practitioners from across the country. ELSF reviewed our materials and provided directional guidance and feedback to ensure that the program fully supports multilingual/English learners.

A component of our K–5 curriculum is the engaging unit stories that interweave mathematics with real-life situations and relatable narratives. These unit stories are specifically crafted to inspire curiosity and foster a deep connection between the learner and the math concepts being explored. This unique approach not only makes learning fun and interesting, but also allows our young learners to see themselves in the math.