Marjorie Schaeffer (00:00):

I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high math-anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school year.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:12):

Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson.

Dan Meyer (00:15):

And I’m Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):

We’re onto Episode 5, Dan, of our series on math anxiety. And I wanna say it feels so lovely to imagine all of these people out there doing work to help combat math anxiety. I dunno, it just makes me feel excited about the possibilities. This work is out there; it’s happening! Kids and teachers and caregivers are being impacted by these conversations. Not just — I mean, I don’t just mean the conversations we’re having on Math Teacher Lounge, but I mean, that these researchers are doing. Like, yes, we can change this!

Dan Meyer (00:53):

This is great. Yeah. We have people who are extremely smart, who have dedicated their professional lives to studying math anxiety and resolving it. And each of them that we’ve chatted with — they share lots of ideas in common, but I’ve loved how they each have their own different flavor or take or area of emphasis on a problem that hits everybody everywhere. It’s in your home, with kids and caregivers. It’s in schools. It’s in our places of teacher preparation and professional learning. Every place is a place where we can focus on resolving issues of math anxiety. It’s exciting.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:26):

Yeah, I feel like … if there could be a course in — we all know that our teacher prep programs, in MOST teacher prep programs, there’s not nearly enough math methods or time to cover <laugh> — it’s like ready, set, go! And depending on who your mentor teacher is or what your math methods course … I mean, it can totally shape the way that you are prepared or really not prepared for going out there to teach math! And so I love that we’re having these conversations.

Dan Meyer (01:55):

What I love about today’s conversation is, one, it’s got a little bit of a technology flavor, so there’s that. But I also love, it’s got one of my favorite features about change, which is that it focuses on change to action, change to routine, rather than change to belief. Rather than saying like, “OK, everybody! Everybody stop thinking bad beliefs about math and transmitting them to your kids!” Instead, it says, “What we’ll do is just, hey, we’ll set that aside for a second and we’re gonna do a certain thing every day and watch as those actions make your beliefs change.” That to me is extremely cool. And I think it has a higher likelihood of success than just, like, me telling parents, “Hey, stop thinking these thoughts!”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:37):

“Ready, set, stop being anxious!”

Dan Meyer (02:39):

Exactly. Exactly. So it’s an exciting conversation we’re gonna have here.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:43):

Right. So it’s not a, you know, “wave the wand and all of a sudden, you’re not anxious about math anymore.” But these incremental changes, these incremental conversations, this validation, can really, really impact change. I’m with you on it, Dan. I hear what you’re saying.

Dan Meyer (03:01):

To help us talk through all of these ideas and more, we’re joined by Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer, Assistant Professor of Psychology at St. Mary’s College in Indiana.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:10):

Enjoy. <Jaunty music> So, yes, Dan, we are so excited to welcome Marjorie Schaeffer. She’s Assistant Professor of Psychology at St. Mary’s College. Dr. Schaeffer, we’re so excited you’re here. Hello!

Marjorie Schaeffer (03:28):

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Dan Meyer (03:29):

Yeah. We are super-lucky to have had so many prolific and brilliant researchers about math anxiety on our show. You’ll be no exception. And every time, we love to find out about how you came to study math anxiety, which winds up being a really interesting glimpse into your backstory bio. So tell us, what is the route by which you came toward studying math anxiety?

Marjorie Schaeffer (03:51):

Oh, I love that question. I’m really interested in how the attitudes and beliefs of parents and teachers influence children, especially around math. And I actually became interested in this idea in college, when no Child Left Behind was actually first starting to be implemented in schools with high-stakes standardized testing. So much so that I actually did my thesis on this thinking about, “Do children understand the importance of high-stakes testing? Do they have anxiety around that idea?” And so that was really my first foray into the anxiety literature. And that was kind of the entry point into math anxiety for me.

Dan Meyer (04:28):

So you started by studying a very high-stakes assessment, like our students connecting with this. And the assessment is once per year. And classroom instruction is every day. So how did you move from the assessments to the everyday instruction?

Marjorie Schaeffer (04:44):

That’s a great question. So, after college, I actually taught kindergarten. And so from that, I saw the day-to-day impact of instruction and the day-to-day impact of children’s individual attitudes and beliefs. And so I really became interested in thinking about, “How do we understand why some children are really successful from the instruction happening in classrooms and why other children need a little bit more support?” And so math anxiety was one way for me to really think about the individual differences I saw in my kindergarten classroom.

Dan Meyer (05:18):

It feels like you headed … you went farther upstream, is what it feels like. Where assessment … there’s like some kind of anxiety around assessment, let’s say. And then you ventured farther up the stream to classroom instruction and then still farther into kids’ homes. It seems like your research invokes a lot of curiosity about the sources of a kind of amorphous, flowing phenomenon called math anxiety. And I’d love to hear a bit about what you know about how caregivers transfer, transmit — whatever the word is — math anxiety to their kids.

Marjorie Schaeffer (05:55):

For parents … we think that the attitudes and beliefs of parents matter. And we see that for lots of areas, not just math anxiety. But I think math anxiety, we see that really clearly. And so, we can think about it both in terms of what kind of input parents provide. So, how do families talk about math with their children? What kind of support do they provide around homework? And those are ones that I think are a little obvious. But we can also think about the offhanded comments that parents say to children when they’re talking about math generally. Right? So, we see lots of memes going around, talking about how hard math homework is. And so, I think when parents say offhanded comments like, “I’m not a math person,” or “We’re just bad at math,” that communicates values to children. I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high math-anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school year. And this specific mechanism by which that happens is still an area for a lot of research. And so some people think it’s about input. So maybe if I’m math anxious, I’m avoiding math. And so, when I have an option to read a picture book that has math content, I focus on the colors instead. And so, my child is actually getting less math than other children. We can also think it’s about these messages that are provided. So, when I talk about math, I send the message to my child, it’s not for them, and therefore the child wants to engage in it less. And some of my work looks at things like expectations and values. So, thinking about, “Do math-anxious families actually value math less than other families unintentionally?” And so, we have some support for this idea that they expect less of their children. And so maybe when they struggle, they respond in different ways than a family who’s lower in math anxiety.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:53):

This is so fascinating to me. I also was a kindergarten teacher. And I remember a mom who just … she had such like palpable math anxiety. And during one of our conversations, she was talking about these homework sessions with her daughter. And I may have mentioned this on the podcast before. But she was talking about how every night they would sit together and they would do all this math. They’d do, like, extra math together. And it always ended in tears. And despite her math anxiety, she didn’t want her daughter to experience the math anxiety that she did. So she was trying to pile it on, so her daughter was more proficient and comfortable. And instead, it was perpetuating this anxiety about it. And so, it’s a phenomenon then, right? Even if a parent is saying, like you said, maybe completely unwilling, this mother was actually trying to do the opposite. She was trying to help, you know, imbue the love and comfort with math. Right?

Marjorie Schaeffer (09:01):

Absolutely. This is why I think in my research, it’s really important that we find low-stakes, low-stress ways for high math-anxious families to do math. They absolutely can support their children in doing math. But they need a little support. We want it to be a fun, low-stakes environment, right? So maybe that’s the connection back to high-stakes testing, that I want children to have fun math experiences.

Dan Meyer (09:28):

Yeah. This is challenging, because it feels like the more caregivers know about math anxiety, and its pernicious effects on students, and how easily transmitted it is, one could become quite anxious about math anxiety. And, you know, no one makes great decisions when they’re anxious. So if I’m recalling our various episodes we’ve done, we’ve heard from people say, “Well, you need to validate students’ math anxiety. This is not something to just ignore or brush past. But also, not validate it in a way that says, you know, ‘This is OK and generational and inevitable.’” Which presents parents with a very thin path to follow, it seems like. So I love what you’re saying about how we gotta just de-stress the whole process.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:11):

You’re avoiding the whole, “I wasn’t a math person either” kind of thing. <laugh>

Dan Meyer (10:15):

Right, right, right. Yeah. So I’d love to know more. We’re excited about the technology that you have studied and helped develop, presumably, called Bedtime Math, anapp for caregivers. And I’d love to know more about what that is and what it offers parents who know enough about math to know that they don’t want to transmit math anxiety to their children, but also want to support. So what does that offer them?

Marjorie Schaeffer (10:39):

So Bedtime Math is an app. It’s freely available on iTunes or the Apple Store or Google Play. And what it’s designed to do is to provide a nightly topical passage. So one of my favorites is the one about Groundhogs Day. And so it talks a little bit about the history of Groundhogs Day, and then it asks math-related follow-up questions. So starting at a preschool level, going through late fifth grade. And it’s really meant for parents to pick the one that meets their children where they are. And so the preschool-level question asks children to pretend to be a groundhog and walk to the left and walk to the right. So a skill that families might not think about as being math, but we actually think that IS part of understanding math. Understanding left and right directionality. And then the next question can ask questions like, “If it took the groundhog three seconds to climb out of the hole, and then two more seconds to see its shadow, how much time did it take all together?” So a simple addition problem, but it’s phrased in a fun way. And so the hope is that for high math-anxious families, these interactions are fun and playful. They don’t look like fights over homework. They’re just conversations that families can have around topics that are naturally interesting to children. And our hope is that when families have lots of these positive low-stakes interactions, they actually can see that we can talk about math in unstressful ways. In lots of ways, right? We can also do this at the grocery store. We can also do this while we’re cooking in the kitchen. It doesn’t just have to be fights over homework.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:14):

And I actually have the Bedtime Math — one of the Bedtime Math books. And I was so excited to find out that there’s an app. And I think one of the things that I loved about the book is that these are invitations, right? They’re exactly that. Low pressure <laugh>, and they’re invitations to have a conversation. And if we were just to tell parents, “Oh, just count!” or, “Hey, just count wherever you go!” You know? No. It’s, in a way, I think, like you said, it’s retraining the parents on what math could look like. Like, “Oh, I didn’t even think we could just kind of have this conversation and we’re actually doing math together.”

Marjorie Schaeffer (12:55):

Yes, absolutely. I absolutely agree. We want it to be fun and playful and not stressful. And we want it to also be things that are meaningful to children’s lives. So these are topics children are interested in. It’s not that we are using flashcards or making children practice math facts over and over again. These are things children should wanna do that can naturally fit into a child’s routine. So almost all families read books before bed, and what we hope is that math can also be a part of the nighttime routine.

Dan Meyer (13:27):

There’s something really subtle here going on that I just wanna name and ask a question about. First of all, it’s cool that you started with studying high-stakes stuff and now you are developing low-stakes stuff. And I’m really curious what makes a thing low-stakes? Like, a few things I’m hearing from you is that there’s, like … I have a small child that I read literature to on a nightly basis. And I feel very anxiety-free doing that. And it’s almost as though, because each of the — tasks is the wrong word for this, but experiences — involve some reading, it puts me, the parent, in a mode that is comfortable and familiar to me. I’m curious: Are there other, as you design, what, one per day for a year? All these different experiences. What are some of the principles that you lean on that help make a thing low-stakes for kids and for parents?

Marjorie Schaeffer (14:17):

Yeah, that’s a great question. So one thing we wanted to be really intentional about is that our app doesn’t look like a lot of traditional apps. There isn’t noises that go off. You don’t enter an answer. And so one of the things that we thought made it low-stakes is that while there is a right or wrong answer — there is a correct answer — we aren’t giving children upsetting feedback. Instead, what we wanna encourage families to do is, if you struggle to remember how many seconds it took the groundhog to come out of the hole, you can work through that with a parent. So it doesn’t feel like you’re getting negative feedback; you’re being told you’re bad at math; you did it wrong. Instead, you’re just getting natural support moving forward. And so that’s one thing we wanted to be really intentional about, was that it wasn’t going to be a negative experience for children. And we are trying to build on all of the positive interactions families are having around nightly book reading. So many ways this can look very similar. You get to read another story that’s topical and hopefully interesting. And then do these little questions together. And so for a lot of families, their children don’t actually really look at the question. It almost feels like the parent is just asking them on their own. Like, they just came up with it. They just wanted to know what would happen to the groundhog. If there were three more groundhogs? How many groundhogs would we have all together? Not like it’s gonna be like homework or other parts.

Dan Meyer (15:38):

So my understanding is that there isn’t a blank into which people type a number in, press “submit” for evaluation, receive the red X, the green check. That’s a key part of the design here.

Marjorie Schaeffer (15:50):

Yes, absolutely. And for research purposes, we would’ve loved to know what families were saying. But we think it’s really important that it’s fun, interactive, that families are working together to get to the right answer, that it’s not a test for children.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:03):

In your research, when you were — maybe you could walk us through the study a little bit. But I’m also curious if you heard from parents that it was carrying over beyond the bedtime routine. Because I would imagine, if I am building these skills and reading these questions and learning that I could talk to my kid like this about math in a fun way, that’s gonna happen then, like you said, when I’m in the grocery store. Or when I’m waiting in line for at the bank. Or whatever, you know? People go into banks now still, right?

Marjorie Schaeffer (16:35):

Yeah, absolutely. So in our study, we recruited almost 600 families and we randomly assigned them. So they had an equal chance of getting both our math app and what we call our control app. And that’s really just a math app without the math. We think of it as a reading control app. And that’s because we wanna make sure that families are having a similar experience, that it’s not just that having high-quality, fun interactions with your child is actually impacting children’s math achievement. And so what we then did is followed those children over the course of early elementary school. And so we worked with them in schools in the fall and spring of first, second, and third grade, really to look at their math learning. And so what we find is that children of high math-anxious adults, when they have the reading app, so what we think of as what’s happening in the real world, we see that really classic gap between children of high math-anxious adults and children of low math-anxious adults. So if you have a high math-anxious parent, you’re learning about three months less math over the course of first grade. But for children who receive this math app, we see this gap as closed. Those children look no different than a low math-anxious parent. And so that’s leading us to think that we’ve helped families talk about math in fundamentally different ways. We did a little bit of just talking to families to see a little bit about what might be going on. And a lot of families do report exactly what you’re describing, where they say this did help them talk about math in different ways they were doing it other times.

Dan Meyer (18:10):

That’s a really extraordinary study design. I don’t know … I love that you folks gave the control group not nothing. Like it’s possible that just parents and kids bonding over a thing regularly would be enough to provoke some kind of academic gain. But you gave the control group a thing that had them interacting socially, bonding, and still this large common gap between high-anxious and low-anxious parents, their kids shrunk together. Is that what I’m gathering here?

Marjorie Schaeffer (18:41):

Yeah, absolutely. So we’re basically seeing we can no longer, when we look at children’s data, say that parents’ math anxiety explains individual differences. So these children look really similar. They’re learning more than children who has a high math-anxious parent and just got our reading control app.

Dan Meyer (19:01):

just diving into the study a little bit more here, what is the time commitment? Or, did you guide parents to say, “All right, we’re gonna do this do this delightful story about a badger for an hour”? Or did people do it for five minutes? And what was the time commitment, roughly, for people?

Marjorie Schaeffer (19:17):

So we tell families to do it however they see fit. Because it is an app, we are able to get some sense of how long, and we are talking about three to six minutes for many families. For a lot of families, they’re reading a paragraph, the paragraph and a half, and then answering one or two questions. They’re not going through every possible question. They’re just doing a little bit, really meeting their kids where they are.

Dan Meyer (19:39):

Roughly how many times per week was that?

Marjorie Schaeffer (19:41):

So we asked families to do it as much as it fit. But we’re seeing about two and a half on average in the first year. And so families are fitting it in a couple of nights a week. It’s not every night.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:52):

So what it sounds like you’re saying is what really was powerful about this app is that it was the space and time and prompts between the caregiver and the child, that chance to really sit down and have some of these meaningful and positive math interactions. How did it shift those relationships?

Marjorie Schaeffer (20:12):

So one of the things I think that makes the app effective is the changing of expectations. After a year, families are really using the app a lot less. And I think that’s OK, that they have found other ways to incorporate math into their lives. And we find that we don’t see an impact on their math anxiety, that they aren’t becoming less math anxious from this experience. Which I think makes sense, because they have had a lifetime of math anxiety. But we do see a change in parents’ expectations and value of math. So they expect their children will be better at math, and they also report that math is more important in their children’s lives. And so I think that’s an important part of it, which is, we can change these values for families, even if we aren’t able to change the math anxiety of the adults in children’s lives.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:01):

I want to for a second before — because I’m loving this idea of the app, and I’m excited to find out more ways to cultivate these conversations in my home and also share this with other folks. Because even folks who don’t even maybe realize they have math anxiety … like you said, so often it’s unconscious. So often we’re putting these little snippets into our everyday conversation, like, “Oh yeah, I’m not a math person.” And we don’t even realize how much is impacting our kiddos and ourselves, right? So I am really curious: What do you think … in your research, what were some other takeaways that you feel like are really strategies that we can think about for combating math anxiety in general?

Marjorie Schaeffer (21:47):

So I’m particularly interested in thinking about how math-anxious adults can help tone down their anxiety so that they can have high-quality interactions with their children, that they interact with. And so one of the big takeaways for my research, I think, is that math-anxious families can help their children with math. They just need support. And so I think there are lots of ways for that support to look like. One, I think it can be an app, but I also think reading a little bit about math can be really helpful. So it’s not new. So the first time you aren’t thinking about some of these ideas is as your child has their homework open in front of you. And so you can process your own feelings separately before you have to do it with a child. I also think reminding parents that math is everywhere and that math is actually lots of things that we all love to do. Math isn’t just calculus. Not that calculus isn’t wonderful. But that math is measuring, math is counting ducks at the park. Math is talking about how many times did I go down this slide. And talking about math in this way, I think reminds families that they are great at that. That even if maybe they’ve had bad math experiences before, they can do math. Especially the way their preschool or early childhood, early elementary school student needs them to. And I think that can then set the foundation for being really successful later.

Dan Meyer (23:13):

So is your research then, your subsequent studies, your line of inquiry, is moving more towards how to support parents, then? Is that what I’m hearing?

Marjorie Schaeffer (23:22):

Yeah. So I’m really interested in both understanding how the math anxiety of parents and teachers influences children. And so math anxiety is really common and we know that it’s particularly common in early elementary school teachers. And so it’s very likely that children are interacting with a highly math-anxious adult. And so I’m really interested in thinking about how we can support those individuals in doing it. And so both, I think, things like Bedtime Math, which provide fun, unscripted ways to do that, but I’m also interested in the teacher equivalent. So, thinking about whether having things like a math coach can help teachers have more positive experiences with math. So if you see someone else play math games with your students, can that help you do it as well?

Dan Meyer (24:09):

It makes me wonder a lot about an app for teachers or an app for parents, one that’s not designed to be co-consumed with kids and their parents. But what that would look like … yeah, that’s really interesting.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:21):

If we have a parent who, let’s say they have a third grader, fourth grader, fifth grader, or a middle schooler, right? Outside of early education. And they say, “OK, but what do I do? I’m with my kiddo; I don’t remember this math.” And they’re realizing that their anxiety may be influencing their kiddos’ disposition of mathematics, Or maybe they’re just in the midst of the battle <laugh>. What would you say to those folks, especially if it’s math that maybe they’re not comfortable with?

Marjorie Schaeffer (24:56):

One, I think we should like tone down the stress, right? Remind ourselves that it’s homework and homework feels really high-stakes, but these other outcomes are really high-stakes too, right? And so I’m really interested in the idea that can we help parents feel more comfortable about math by watching their own children teach it to them. So what’s a concept that the fourth grader actually feels really good about? And can they remind their parent how to do it? Can, together, they problem-solve the math homework? And so it’s not just on the parent to give the child the right answer. We know that’s a recipe for communicating some negative things about math. But instead, help the parent-child pair figure it out together. So what are some resources we can do? Can we look it up on the internet together? Can we write an email to the teacher together? Can we think about what are other problems that maybe we know how to do, and therefore we can use that same model here? So I want parents to feel like they are not solely responsible for it. That they can help figure it out with their child together. And so it’s a fun interaction.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:02):

I love that. I love that.

Dan Meyer (26:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah. A conviction that I have, and I think it’s true, is that any math that we’re learning at middle school, the attraction can be dialed down to a degree that a very small child, or a parent who has a very small child’s understanding of math, can appreciate. So instead of calculation, estimation. Instead of proof, just make a claim about something. And it makes me wonder about a companion to the work that’s happening in schools that parents feel inadequate to support, that students might not want to teach their parents. But which they could both, on a daily basis, say, “Here’s a way we can engage in this at a level that is comfortable to both of us.” Just dreaming out loud here. No question asked. No response needed. I just love your work. And made me wonder about that. Can you let me know your thoughts about technology? It is very rare that we have someone on the call who is an academic and very well-versed in research, but who also is published not just in in papers and textbooks, but also in digital media. It’s consumed by lots of people. So I am trusting that you have opinions about how math looks in technology. And I wonder if you’d offer some thoughts about how it goes, right? How it goes wrong from your own eyes.

Marjorie Schaeffer (27:14):

OK. That’s a great question. I think that we need more research. I first wanna say that I think that technology has really exploded in the last few years. How children have access to technology and screen times has really changed. And what we need is high-quality research happening. That said, I think that all of the things we know from child-development research still apply to technology. And so we know that children learn best when they are engaging in interactions with their parents. And so when families can use technology together, or at least can talk about what’s happening, it can be really effective. I also think technology, especially math apps, are best at teaching concrete skills with very clear answers. So I think practicing math facts is a great use of technology. So I love that Sushi math app where you solve multiplication problems and then get to quickly pull the sushi off the cart, right? But for higher-level questions, where we’re thinking about word problems or where what we’re helping to teach students is complex thinking, apps have a harder time doing that. Because students can often figure out the answer without engaging in the thinking that we are hoping that they’ll learn. And so I think technology absolutely has a piece. I think technology is helpful for parents. I think the logistics of helping parents live their lives is a good reason to use technology. But I think we need to be conscious of what it’s replacing. And so I think a world in which we think fourth graders can learn math only from apps is not realistic. But absolutely apps can be a great supplement to what’s already happening in the classroom.

Dan Meyer (28:56):

Yeah, that’s super-helpful. We have done a lot of work in digital curriculum here at Amplify, and often face the question on a daily basis, “Should this math be digital or on paper? Should we have the students stand up and talk or type something?” And those decisions are way too crucial and way more sensitive than a lot of the app-based education gives credit to. So appreciate your perspective there.

Marjorie Schaeffer (29:22):

OK. And I don’t think there’s one answer, or one answer for all classrooms. I think it’s like always a balancing act. I do think that one of the reasons our work is successful is because the parent-child interaction. And we want parents to learn from these experiences. And I think the same thing is true for for teachers.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:41):

Dr. Schaeffer, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing about your research, and again, for inviting us to reconsider ways that we can develop a more positive relationship with math. And that parent or caregiver or teacher relationship with a child, we’re seeing just how incredibly impactful that is. And I really appreciate your work and your voice on this. Thank you so much for your time.

Dan Meyer (30:07):

Thank you.

Marjorie Schaeffer (30:08):

Thank you for having me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:12):

Thank you again, Dr. Schaeffer, and thank you all for listening to our conversation. You can check out the show notes for more on Dr. Schaeffer’s work and to see a link to the app that we shared about Bedtime Math.

Dan Meyer (30:25):

Please keep in touch with us on Facebook at Math Teacher Lounge Community, and on Twitter at MTLShow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:32):

We would love to hear … you’ve been listening to this series; we’re dipping our toe into all these aspects of math anxiety. Is there something that you’re still wondering about? Something you wanna share about your own story with math anxiety?

Dan Meyer (30:43):

And if you haven’t already, if this is your first exposure to the Math Teacher Lounge podcast, please subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get your fine podcast products. And if you like what you’re hearing, please rate us! Leave us a review. You’ll help more listeners find the show.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:01):

And let a friend know. But you know, it’s, it’s nice and cozy here in the Lounge, right? There’s no pressure. We’re hanging out. It’s all about learning. We’re learning together. We’re glad you’re here and we want others in your community to join us in the Lounge as well. You can find more information on all of Amplify’s shows at our podcast hub. Go to amplifycom.wpengine.com/hub. Next time on Math Teacher Lounge, we’re gonna be chatting about where we are today that we weren’t a few months ago in this topic.

Dan Meyer (31:31):

We’ll be chatting about this last series about math anxiety, and trading our favorite insights and observations from the run of the season.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:41):

I just love this series, Dan. And thanks, all, for listening. We really appreciate having you in the Lounge.

Dan Meyer (00:01):
Hey, folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m one of your hosts, Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:05):
And I am your other host. I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Season five! Hello!

Dan Meyer (00:11):
Bethany, how are you doing? How have you been spending the long break between our recording sessions?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):
As much as I loved sharing content from previous seasons, I am so thrilled that we’re back for season five. I have been, you know, chasing a toddler. I think he’s already tired of me saying, “Ooh, can we count that?” He’s like [sighs] “One two, one two.” Like, he’s done already.

Dan Meyer (00:36):
Too much counting. Yeah, I worry about that so much, that my love of mathematics might be perceived by my kids as smothering. Yeah, I worry about the same. We shared with you folks some bangers of reruns, in my humble opinion. Some great guests. But, we’ve been excited—me and Bethany—to hop back on the mics, on the ones and twos, and explore some new ideas together.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:01):
Well, I loved our season talking about joy in mathematics. And personally I could…like, we could turn this whole podcast into joy in mathematics. However, we’re kind of going a different route. Because if you ask folks why they don’t feel joy in mathematics, a lot of times at the root of that is some really intense math anxiety. So this whole season, we’re going to be delving into math anxiety. Exploring what it is, who has it, why do we think it happens, what do we think we can do about it, and how can we navigate through it, so that we can experience that joy in math? These are questions that we’re gonna explore over the course of the season. Dan Meyer, how do you feel about that?

Dan Meyer (01:49):
It feels big and it feels personal. I mean, as we shared in our math stories back from season…whatever it was, math anxiety was a huge part.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:59):
It was last season, Dan.

Dan Meyer (02:00):
Last…? I mean, who can remember? Big part of your journey. I’ve had some very punctuated but intense moments of anxiety in math class. And socially, we have built math up to be this incredibly powerful thing. You know, restricting movement on economic ladders, preventing people from getting into careers they want. Whether or not they have much to do with math class, math anxiety is a really large part of educational but also social life. And yeah, I’m really excited to explore it with you. We’re bringing on some really excellent guests. Some researchers, yes. But not just researchers! Also people who practice in the field and know firsthand what it looks like to resolve issues of anxiety with students.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:45):
Yeah, you’re right, Dan. My math story contained quite a bit of math anxiety, so I am particularly invested in this season. I mean, I still navigate math anxiety. And, you know, many of us do, and let’s talk about it. And let’s—I love that you reminded me. We’re gonna have a lot of great researchers all throughout the season, and a lot of times folks feel like the research happening, there’s sometimes a gap between researchers and what’s actually happening in the classroom. Not in all cases, but a lot of times. Right? And I remember a lot of conversation about the latest research when I was in grad school, but unless you’re actively studying something, sometimes we don’t know what’s happening. Right? We’re really focused on what’s happening right in front of us in our classroom. So let’s take some of that research; let’s break it down; let’s talk to some of the folks who are thinking about this for the bulk of their day, right?

Dan Meyer (03:41):
Yep. So we got our first guest coming up in a moment here.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:45):
So to kick off this season, we’re starting episode one by talking to Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University. And he’s been researching math anxiety for more than a decade. He’s worked with so many amazing folks in the field. He’s worked with students, he’s worked with teachers, with educators…I’m just so excited to talk to him. If you look up math anxiety, you see his name as one of the folks who is really thinking about this at so many different angles, and we get to talk to him. So enjoy our conversation with Dr. Gerardo Ramirez.

Dan Meyer (04:29):
We are so excited to have Dr. Gerardo Ramirez on the show with us. Dr. Ramirez is an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University. Thanks so much for joining us.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (04:40):
Yeah, thank you for inviting me to talk about math anxiety.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:43):
So with your interview, Dr. Ramirez, we are actually launching the season. We’re gonna be talking about all different aspects of math anxiety, and it feels pretty perfect that you are first guest of the season, because of the sheer breadth of research and conversations you’ve had about math anxiety. Could you start us off kind of telling us a story of how did you get interested in studying math anxiety? Or why, you know, why did you dive into this topic that, you know, I think a lot of folks might…like, if you’re on a plane, and you say, “Oh, I study math anxiety,” what kind of reaction are you gonna get?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (05:24):
Oh, sure. Yeah. I think most people are actually very interested because they all have their own story about feeling anxious about math, or just being anxious about evaluation situations that involve math. And, yeah, they wanna share those stories. People feel quite comfortable talking about their anxiety about math, for some reason. But for me, I started off, when I was in undergrad, I was studying to take the GRE quiz. I was hoping to go into a psych program. But I wasn’t exactly sure what direction yet. As I took some of the practice tests, there’s some situations in which I was very nervous about taking the practice test. And I just noticed that I did really poorly on some of these exams. And so I became very interested in issues like choking under pressure, which means when you underperform relative to what you expected to perform. And so, as I was researching these issues, I started to come across this whole field of math anxiety. And I saw that while there are some people who choke under pressure during tests, there are other people who just have a strong general fear of mathematics.

Dan Meyer (06:29):
That’s really helpful. I can imagine you’re doing a lot of free psychology sessions, free therapy for people on airplanes when they bring to you their own stories of math. So let’s thank you for your service in that sense. I’m super-curious. So Bethany and I have both taught math. We both have seen firsthand what it looks like when a student is anxious in math class, though maybe we don’t have kind of the clinical language to describe it. And I’m curious, from a clinical sense, how do we define math anxiety?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (06:57):
Sure. So first off, math anxiety is not something that you would find in the DSM, for instance. But we generally define that as a fear or apprehension to situations that involve math. So it doesn’t have to necessarily be educational situations. It could be someone asks you a math-related question during a party, or you have to calculate the tip at a restaurant, for instance. It doesn’t have to be about schooling situations, although that’s obviously where it seems to matter a lot for many people. So it is basically a fear or apprehension to situations that involve math. And I think distinguishing the term “fear” from “anxiety” is really important here. A lot of times people use those terms interchangeably, and the term “fear” is obviously within our definition of math anxiety. But oftentimes what differentiates anxiety from fear is that, anxiety is—think of it like a recipe. Anxiety is fear plus a little bit of unknown. OK? So if, for instance, if you hated snakes, and they threw a snake at you, you’d be in intense fear. Whereas if you hated snakes and they said, “There is a snake in the room, but I’m not gonna tell you where,” that’s gonna cause anxiety. And so the reason why we call it math anxiety is because a lot of times people experience this fear for a possible unknown future that involves math or possible unknown evaluations that people might have about your competence, because of math. And so for a lot of kids, they feel anxious about how they’re gonna do on a test or whether they’re gonna be able to pass a class or whether they’ll be able to understand what you’re saying in your lessons, for instance. And so the anxiety component really gets at fear of something that’s unknown, but related to mathematics situations.

Dan Meyer (08:47):
Math is somewhere in the ceiling right now. Perhaps I might be surprised with a math situation!

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (08:52):
Yeah. yep.

Dan Meyer (08:52):
So I have this tendency to assume that every other subject that we teach has it better and easier than math does. It’s not true. I know this is not true. But I’m kind of curious here. Is math anxiety, like, part of a general just set of anxiety around schooling itself? Like, is there a reading anxiety, a writing anxiety, and does that all just flow from the same kind of fount of anxiety around schooling or situations about learning? And what makes math special in this regard? If it is its own special anxiety, for instance?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (09:27):
There are different…so some people obviously suffer from generalized anxiety. Right? And so they would, you know, feel anxious both for evaluative and non-evaluative situations. But in the research that we’ve done and that other people have done, there are differences between things like reading anxiety, math anxiety; I’ve also studied spatial and creativity anxiety. A lot of times what we’re trying to do in these studies is we measure all of the above, and we try to show that, look, math anxiety predicts math situations above and beyond these other things. So yeah, we definitely distinguish those things. And so what’s special about math is that, well, I think the symbolic nature is a big part of it. The abstract symbolic nature is just not as tangible to students. They can’t touch it. And so it doesn’t allow ’em to use their full cognitive faculties to play with it, as you might see, for instance, in science. Or it doesn’t allow people to relate math to their own interests the way you might see, for instance, in English. So maybe I hate reading novels, but I’m interested in zombies and you give me a book on zombies, well, ok, great, you’ve connected my personal assets to the topic. Whereas with math, either that’s harder to do or instructors don’t do such a good job of setting that connection up.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:46):
Also, I think, you know, I’ve heard of students being really anxious, let’s say, during a reading session, when teachers used to do—hopefully they’re still not doing it—the popcorn reading, where you just randomly call on a student to read out a sentence. Right? But you don’t really hear students or adults talking about, “Oh, no, no, no, I don’t read; I don’t mess with reading.” You know? Whereas with math, you do hear, “Oh, I’m not a math person. Oh no, no, no, don’t ask me any math questions.” And that is such a distinction.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (11:18):
Yeah. And I think a lot of that’s because it’s just so common. As an adult, to be nervous about reading is kind of an uncommon thing. So people feel a stigma around admitting that. But math is something that everyone feels like they’re inadequate in. And so there’s a lot of comfort in telling you how they’re just one of the many people who don’t like math. And that, you know, can have a lot of different consequences and outcomes. I think on the one hand, I think for a lot of kids it becomes a normalized message that if you fear math, that’s OK, join the club. Right? But we have to be careful about that, ’cause a lot of math anxiety researchers will oftentimes say, part of what leads to math anxiety is adults normalizing that it’s OK to be scared of math. So I think a lot of times adults, teachers, for instance, math teachers, they’ll tell kids, “You know, if you’re scared, that’s OK.” And so a lot of the math anxiety community says, “No, no, no, you’re not supposed to do that.” But my recent view is different. I view that as a form of validation. Because math is hard. And so telling kids, “Hey, look, it’s actually easy if you just try,” I don’t think that’s true. It’s actually just hard. And I think even if it was easy, to the kid, it feels hard! And I think something that’s not really well-studied right now in our field is the value of validating people’s math negative math experiences. We don’t want to validate that, ’cause we think that we’re gonna reinforce that. But actually, I think the opposite. I think when you validate people’s negative math experiences, it helps ’em to feel that they can handle it. They can start to take control over their own emotions.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:52):
I love that. And I, I actually, I think that’s so powerful, what you’re talking about, that validation. I taught kindergarten, and I vividly remember being in a parent-teacher conference and that parent saying, “Oh, I wasn’t a math person either,” right? Or, you know, their language and their experience with their own math schooling, their anxiety about math was actually impacting their students’ experience of math. Or the conversation that, when I would go to talk about a math assessment, let’s say, you could see the parent actually tensing up. And there was this moment of validation, that I felt like we needed to make space for that in the conversation with the parents, right?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (13:38):
Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:38):
Like, this is a real thing. And we are working on teaching students that math is something that gets to—your experience with math gets to look all sorts of different ways. And it’s OK if we, you know, make a mistake, or if we kind of only get this part, but we’ve really got that part. Or let’s talk about it; let’s write about it. So I really feel like that that validation is something that’s so missing. And instead of the validation, like you said, you see folks being like, “Oh yeah, me neither. I’m not a math person either.” Right?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (14:10):
Yeah. I think…part of the reason why people are comfortable sharing this because they’re looking for validation also. When they say, “Oh, I’m not a math person,” you know, I think they’re hoping that, you’ll say like, “Yeah, me neither,” or “Of course not, ’cause math is terrible.” Right? They’re looking for validation, not to reinforce their perspective, but to feel that it’s OK not to be a math person. And I think that’s one of the techniques that I’m trying to work on in my research right now, is to provide evidence that actually people will work harder when you validate their math experience. You don’t have to tell them a positive story per se. If your current story is “Math is hard and I’m very, very anxious; I’m scared,” then we can just validate that and help you work through that. And it actually will strengthen our relationships. Because if you’re a student and you’re struggling with math and I tell you, “Yeah, it’s hard; it’s OK to struggle with math,” that makes you feel seen. And that’s gonna lead you to want to ask me more for help, because I’m someone who understands you. And that’s a great, you know, remediation opportunity.

Dan Meyer (15:14):
A common thread that I think I’m seeing here in several answers is that math sometimes asks students to disassociate part of themselves. Where success in math oftentimes means working from an a level of abstraction with symbols, like you said, that can feel alien. Like, who am I here? And in the same way, I love that you’re proposing we validate and reassociate people with a very deeply felt part of themselves that is anxious about mathematics.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (15:44):
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s what validation’s supposed to do, right? So a lot of us, when we feel these strong emotions, we wonder, “Is this even a real thing? Are other people feeling this? Is there something wrong with me?” So we feel the emotions, but we can’t actually deal with them, because we wonder if they’re legitimate. And so when someone says, like, “Yeah, this is hard,” it crystallizes that emotion. And once something is made real, you can actually choose how you want to deal with it. Some kids are gonna deal with it by staying anxious. But some people are gonna choose to deal with it by saying, “Well, there’s nothing I can do about it now; I have to take this math test, so I’m just gonna think positive.” And that’s great. If the kid can end up saying that to themselves, that’s much more effective than me telling the kid, “Hey, you just gotta think positive. You’re gonna start the test anyway.” And so we want the kid to make meaning of their experience, and the way we do that is by crystallizing their emotions through validation.

Dan Meyer (16:36):
Yeah. I love that. And so what you’re proposing there, I think, sounds like, a solution, like a post-talk solution after students are feeling anxiety.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (16:43):
Yes.

Dan Meyer (16:43):
To validate and empathize.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (16:45):
Yes.

Dan Meyer (16:45):
And over the course of our season, we hope to explore a lot about solutions to math anxiety that are preventative, that reduce the odds of anxiety arising, through instruction and curriculum, before it arises. And I’m just wondering if you’ve seen anything that would hint at either specific or general words of wisdom you wanna share with the educators, about not just addressing it after the fact, but preventing math anxiety before it arises?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (17:14):
To be honest, at this point, I haven’t seen enough evidence for me to recommend anything concretely as an intervention for math anxiety, or an intervention to prevent its development. All I can really do here is rely a lot on the more broad cognitive-behavioral research on anxiety, which says that one of the ways we prevent people from developing anxiety is by helping them to make more positive appraisals of challenge situations. So a lot of times, when kids are challenged, they don’t know how to interpret that. “What does it mean that I’m struggling with this thing?” And so that’s where I think a lot of teachers can help students’ interpretations of that. ‘Cause if you leave kids to their own devices, they’re gonna think, “I’m struggling because I’m stupid. I’m struggling because I’m not good enough. I’m struggling because my dad is right; I’m gonna be a failure.” You know? They’re going to impose an interpretation to a challenge situation regardless. And so, as teachers, one thing we can do is we can help shape that interpretation and say, “What does it mean to struggle with math? People will say it means you’re stupid. That’s one interpretation. What’s another one? It means that your brain is working really hard to think through something. That’s another interpretation. What’s better? What do you think is more helpful?” And then, helping students to see how interpretations matter to how you ultimately feel about something. And that’s a very metacognitive way of thinking about things. So yeah, I would say that one way to prevent it is to help students to take more positive interpretations of their experience. But another way, and I think a more successful way, I think, is to give students early experiences where they feel efficacious dealing with math. One of the ways you do that, for instance, is by obviously making sure that the students understand the material—but that’s obvious; people are trying to do that. One of my favorite recommendations is to keep reassigning assignments, the same exact assignment, for, say, three weeks, back-to-back. So if in week one you do the homework assignment, you do OK, you don’t do so great, when week two you do it, you give the exact same assignment, and now the student can see like, “Wow, OK, this was much easier.” And then, week three, you give the exact same assignment; now the kid’s feeling really confident. And the reason why that’s great is because it helps kids to see that they’re growing in confidence. A lot of times kids don’t get to see that because we’re constantly throwing new assessments at them. And so they’re never seeing that growth. All they’re seeing is a new challenge, a new challenge, a new challenge. So I think we need to set up situations where they can feel that they’re growing, when we keep the assessment static. That can be a formative assessment, for instance—doesn’t have to be a summative assessment.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:55):
That feels so powerful and it feels like it really connects to that validation piece, right? We are actually helping to create a culture in our math classroom where we might struggle with something, but we keep revisiting it. And it’s not so much to reach mastery, but as Dr. Megan Franke — we talked to her about this partial understanding and about pulling on those threads of things that you do understand, so that you can build your confidence…build, not just confidence, but build your…I guess, kind of get your footing, right? You’re saying, “Well, I do understand this. I see how this works.” And if I’m revisiting an assignment, I feel like that would give me permission to like, “Hey, I don’t have to have this figured out on the first pass. You know?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (20:44):
Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, I’m gonna give you a silly analogy, but I think it works. You know, a lot of times people will have nightmares, right? And they’ll keep having the same nightmare over and over again, right? And so one reason that we suspect this happens is because they haven’t worked through whatever that nightmare’s supposed to be about. So if, say, I’m scared of driving, I may be having the same dream about driving and crashing over and over. And we keep having these nightmares. And I think math anxiety is kind of like a waking nightmare, where you keep rehashing something because you haven’t had the chance to finally address that dragon. You know? And so if someone was having a lot of fear over driving, then one behavioral approach would be, you know, to work with a therapist to actually get behind the wheel and maybe drive around the same track over and over until you feel comfortable at that, and then the nightmares stop. Well, the same thing is true, I think, about math, math and math anxiety, is that you wanna give people these opportunities to feel confident by going back to that original experience that caused them to feel anxious, and saying, “This one assignment that we did in week three that really freaked you out, let’s try it again now in week five. How was that?” “Yeah, it wasn’t so bad. It was still kind of annoying.” “OK, we’ll we’ll come back to it.” “Now it’s week seven. Now let’s go back to that assignment. How is it now?” “That’s actually…it wasn’t that terrible.” And that gives people the opportunity to reflect on how they’ve grown past that nightmare.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:05):
I have to say, Dan talked about you being like a therapist. I’m like, wait, “How did you know, Dr. Ramirez? I did have this recurring dream! I did! And I had to face it. No, but I had such intense math anxiety in high school and it was debilitating. And the biggest thing for me, I thought I was the only one. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought, “Why can’t I figure this out?” There wasn’t a conversation about “Here are some tools,” or “Here are some, some, some…”. Like, “This is OK, for you to feel scared about this or overwhelmed!”

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (22:41):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:42):
You know, I think often when we talk about how widespread math anxiety is, I think a lot of folks automatically jump to high schoolers or college students avoiding math courses. But we see this in really young kids.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (22:56):
Yeah. So people are…people are just constantly making meaning of themselves, regardless of the age range. And that’s true even with young kids; they are trying to figure out who they are. Right? And so one of the things you see oftentimes with young kids is you ask ’em, “What are you good at?” And they say, “Everything!” And that’s their attempt to, you know, make meaning of themselves. But sometimes they’re not good at everything. Sometimes they actually struggle in math. And I think even early on, they have to make meaning of that. They say, “Well, I’m good at everything except math.” And how do you make sense of that? Well, why not math? “Oh, because math is terrible. It’s not for everybody. You know, it’s not something that I like.” And so, yeah, in a lot of the studies that we did early on, we basically went into these first-grade classrooms with the purpose of trying to assess whether we can actually show variability in kids’ math anxiety, even early on. In other other words, do kids even report feeling anxious about math situations? Or do they tell us that they’re great at everything? And what we found was that in fact, a good chunk of kids are, again, perfectly willing to tell you that “No, certain situations involving math make me very anxious.” Counting or addition, or doing a problem on the board. And the way we do that is by—I think there are probably more sophisticated ways that can be done, but this is the best we have at this point—is we go in there and we ask them, we show them a bunch of smiley faces and anxious faces. And we say, “I want you to tell me how you feel about these different situations that involve math.” And so we say, “If you feel kind of nervous, I want you to point to this face. If you feel very nervous, point to this face.” And we basically will read to them situations. We’ll say, “How would you feel if your teacher asked you to open up your new math textbook and you saw all the numbers inside of it?” And they’ll point to the really nervous face. So right now, those are some of the more reliable assessments for math anxiety among young kids. And that work showed us that even young kids are self-reporting math anxiety.

Dan Meyer (24:51):

Obviously this is worth our study, because we would hope people would not feel anxious in general, and especially if we have a mandated…kids are mandated to be in math classes for their entire childhood. So I see the need for this study, these studies. I’m curious: What are the consequences, though? Like what, what correlates with math anxiety? What are other reasons why we should care about math anxiety and work to remediate it?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (25:16):
Oh, sure. So it correlates with their actual math performance. It can correlate when they choose to do homework. Right? So a lot of times, the parents report having to fight with their kids over math homework a lot. And you also oftentimes see a lot of frustration over mathematics specifically. And so it can, you know, not only affect their academic ongoing outcomes, like math tests and math assignments, but it can also affect their relationship with their parents. So if every time you come home, your dad’s screaming at you because you haven’t done your math homework, and when he asks you to solve the problem in front of them, you don’t remember, ’cause you were checked out, ’cause you’re so stressed out, that’s gonna cause a really negative experience. You know, a lot of times people grow up and they still remember their dad screaming at them over the math homework. You know, it’ll affect your relationship with your teacher. So if you’re making me feel incompetent, if you’re stressing me out, you’re not the kind of person I wanna come to for help. So it can predict relational outcomes as well as academic outcomes. And down the line, of course, when it affects students’ opportunities to get into things like AP classes, it affects students standardized test performance and their choice of colleges, as well as scholarship opportunities.

Dan Meyer (26:29):
Once you show that it correlates to performance, then that opens up a whole range of other correlations that are pretty important, it sounds like. Whether that’s career options or, you know, post-secondary education and the like.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (26:40):
Yeah. And a lot of times, when people are choosing a career at college, a lot of times students will make a decision specifically based on what career has less math requirements or less math courses. So I think this finding needs to be verified further. But, there’s some studies showing that, for instance, elementary ed teachers, one factor that feeds into the decision to go into elementary ed is the math requirements are very low in elementary ed. So that can…obviously it’s not what we wanna hear, because these are our first formal math teachers, right? For our kids.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:16):
It feels so powerful, the impact that math anxiety can have, not only while you’re in, let’s say, elementary school, high middle school, high school, but then the impacts beyond that in terms of your career. And I shared this last season, when we talked about our personal math story, but I know when I was navigating the deepest part of my math anxiety, I really felt like, maybe this is a reason I can’t be an elementary school teacher. Because I was so worried that I wouldn’t be able…not that I wouldn’t understand the math for fourth grade, fifth grade, but that there was something about my ability to teach it or understand it or develop a love and passion for it that I wouldn’t be able to do. And I really had to reclaim it in my own way. But, you know, something that I think is so powerful about your research is just the applicability — not only to the field of mathematics, but folks’ everyday lives. And the way that you have talked in the past about math being a gatekeeper…I have a family member who, brilliant American Sign Language interpreter. I mean, amazing. Like a dance with her fingers. I could just watch it all day. And she actually didn’t complete the program because she couldn’t complete the math requirements. And I remember talking to her about like, “Well, have you gone to the free tutoring? Have you gone to, you know, this or that?” But it was a paralyzing fear, you know? So Dr. Ramirez, what do you wish educators understood about math anxiety? Or the research about math anxiety? Or maybe even the general public at large, what do you wish folks understood about math anxiety?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (28:58):
Oh, I think that a lot of students, they struggle with math. And I think we wanna normalize that struggle as much as possible. We want to create a culture where it’s OK to do math slow; it’s ok to take your time. And I know that’s not possible with a lot of these requirements that a lot of math teachers have to do. But I think if we want to prevent math anxiety, we have to create opportunities to tell better stories. So that’s ultimately what I tell people is, why do people develop math anxiety? Because they had experiences that challenged their competency and they told a negative story. And so making space to reflect in math classrooms about what does it mean to go slow in math, or what does it mean to make mistakes, and then helping kids to tell better stories, I think it’s really the best thing we can do as math educators. ‘Cause you know, your job is not to be a therapist ultimately. You know, there’s only so much math teachers can do. But I think one of the most powerful things we can create is setting up students’ experiences where they feel confident, and they can tell better stories, so they can have better dreams about math.

Dan Meyer (30:06):
Really appreciate this introduction to math anxiety. It’s been a fantastic kickoff to our season. Dr. Ramirez, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (30:14):
Sure. Thank you.

Dan Meyer (30:16):
Thank you folks so much for listening to that conversation with Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:25):
Dan, OK, if not for your frantic signaling, I would’ve probably asked another 20 questions. I need to know what you thought .

Dan Meyer (30:34):
I found it interesting at all points. And especially I think I started to understand a little bit better where the anxiety comes from for some students. I got a little bit here, which is that I think math, more than other disciplines, involves alienation. Check that word. You like that? Alienation? I’m into it. I’m feeling it. It’s like…to get good at math, to be successful in math, you gotta, as a kid, lose your attachment to the world you understand. And I mean, “got to” as in like, “you are asked to” — many times, unfortunately, by curriculum and instruction. Which is to say, you’re turning things you can hold onto into numerals. Right? You’re turning the world and its patterns that you can see and touch into Xs and Ys. And I just don’t know that other disciplines deal with that as much. Maybe I’m wrong and just guilty of, you know, “grass is always greener” syndrome here. But I think that’s an experience that kids have in math. And I thought that Dr. Ramirez got at that when he’s talking about the need to validate a student’s experience of anxiety. Like, in treating anxiety, sometimes we alienate people further by just like saying, “Oh, no, no, no, it’s just like, you need to, you know, drill yourself more, practice more,” and kind of invalidate that. So this feeling of alienation, I think permeates a lot of math instruction. I’m looking forward to learning more about that with our future episodes

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:00):
Alienation. That’s interesting. I definitely felt, I definitely felt isolated and alone many times in my math journey, when I was having my…you know, in high school, when I was feeling like, “Clearly everyone can look at tan, sign, cosign, and that means something to them.” Right? I think it’s really interesting, because I’m thinking about the other disciplines; I’m running through them, and I’m like, even in science, which can seem abstract, so oftentimes there’s these experiments that accompany these concepts, where you’re like, “Look at this concept made real in front of you.” Right? . And so yeah, that’s really interesting.

Dan Meyer (32:39):
You’re always one step away from blowing something up! Or, you know, dissecting something that’s tangible to you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:46):
Yeah. That’s really interesting. I did really love how he brought up the abstract. And how, I think, even validating it…he talked so much about validation. Which to me was like, YES. If somebody just said, “Hey, it’s not only possible to have math anxiety, but it also doesn’t mean that you don’t belong here.” If somebody had said that, it would’ve literally changed the trajectory, you know? And I wonder what those conversations could look like in our classrooms, where teachers celebrate that. Like, WHOA, this is a new way to think of this. This is a new way. Asking how many, or what do you notice for this image, through a mathematical lens, or looking…we talked to Alison Hintz and Antony Smith, like mathematizing books, like looking through these lenses — it’s an invitation to step into this other world, right? But there’s not only one way to do it. And I think oftentimes it’s like that anxiety of “Am I gonna say the right thing?” or “Am I gonna notice the right thing?” Right? How do we create that space more, where there’s so many possibilities and we want kiddos to notice what they notice, right?

Dan Meyer (33:54):
You gotta become a certain kind of person to be successful in math class. I feel like is part of the implied deal. Where you’ve gotta—like how you said—say a certain thing or think about a certain thing a certain kind of way. You’re trying to become someone who is not necessarily you. Which I think is fundamentally an experience of alienation, separating you from important parts of yourself.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:19):
I will never, ever dive into mathematics on the scale and level that you have with your PhD. You understand math in a way that my brain just…I won’t get there, right? And yet I’m allowed to call myself a mathematician, with all of my deep dives in elementary math and my love of early numeracy and thinking about how we start thinking about counting and numbers. Right? It’s like, if we make more space for what mathematicians can look like, and what is your personal relationship with math…I mean, that to me feels really exciting. ‘Cause I think we both have something to offer each other.

Dan Meyer (35:03):
I think I have never found early math more interesting than when I talk to early math educators. And learn just like all the different ways that students come to understand a concept that I had thought was simple. Like addition of whole numbers. Whoa! There’s a lot of ways kids do that work, and their brains think those thoughts. And, yeah. That’s a good word there you’re offering us and our listeners.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:27):
Yeah. Yeah. I’m really excited about this season. I think there’s — again, there’s no way we’re gonna cover all facets of math anxiety. But I think having the chance to explore it over the course of a season is going to be really fascinating. And really, I hope, destigmatize it and open up the conversation for our listeners. And, you know, if you listeners…we wanna know what you thought of this episode. Do you have any particular questions? Do you have questions related to math anxiety? Questions related to this episode? We are in development for this season, so we’re gonna do our best to get those questions answered. You can keep in touch with us in our Facebook discussion group, Math Teacher Lounge Community, and on Twitter at MTLshow.

Dan Meyer (36:14):
Next time, we’re gonna go deeper into the causes and consequences of math anxiety.

Dr. Erin Maloney (36:20):
It’s not just the case that people who are bad at math are anxious about it. It’s actually that the anxiety itself can cause you to do worse in math. And that for me is really exciting, ’cause it means that if we can change your mindset, then we can really set you on a path with several more options available to you.

Dan Meyer (36:41):
Til next time folks,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:41):
Bye.

Dr. Erin Maloney (00:00):

It’s the anxiety itself in many ways that can cause people to underperform.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:06):

Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson.

Dan Meyer (00:10):

And I’m Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:11):

This is episode two of our new season, all about math anxiety. Who has it? What is it? What do we do about it?

Dan Meyer (00:20):

I’m learning so much, learning a ton.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:22):

I loved our first conversation with Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, episode one, our first episode of the season. Really, our goal with that conversation was just to—we need to talk about the basics of it, for reals. Like, what is math anxiety?

Dan Meyer (00:36):

What is it? How do you measure it? How’s it defined? Super-helpful stuff.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:40):

There’s not only one way that it’s measured. But it’s like, in active research right now, how are folks making sense of it? And I think Dr. Ramirez did such a fantastic job of sharing that with our listeners. And I learned a lot. You learned a lot, Dan?

Dan Meyer (00:56):

I did. And I’m also super-excited to take that knowledge that we have developed together and go and build on top of it and keep on climbing up up the mountain here, and learn more about math anxiety. Which is why we’re super-excited to have a guest on, Dr. Maloney, who is going to help us learn more—especially about what happens to the brain when it’s experiencing math anxiety. There’s some really complex stuff that happens there, including the role of parents and educators in creating and resolving math anxiety. And I think we’ll also learn that the whole situation is a bit of a hot mess. And we’ll try to make it a little bit less messy together.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:34):

Little bit less messy. Dan, if we do nothing else, can we make it a little less messy?

Dan Meyer (01:41):

I sometimes prefer more mess, but in this case I prefer less. So.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:45):

I have a two-year-old, so everything is a mess.

Dan Meyer (01:47):

Your life is mess. Yes. <laugh> Right. Well, I’m excited for you folks to hear this. It was a delightful conversation, so yeah, tune in. We are joined by Dr. Erin Maloney.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:56):

Let’s go. We are joined by Dr. Erin Maloney, associate professor in the School of Psychology at the University of Ottawa, where she directs the Cognition and Emotion Laboratory, as well as serving as the Canada Research Chair in Academic Achievement and Well-being. Welcome to the show, Dr. Maloney. We’re so excited to have you in the Lounge.

Dr. Erin Maloney (02:20):

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is fantastic.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:24):

So our last season was all about math and joy. And even when I read your title, I felt more joyful. Like, somebody is thinking about academic achievement, but with well-being in mind. I love it.

Dr. Erin Maloney (02:39):

Aw, thank you.

Dan Meyer (02:40):

Cognition and emotion!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:42):

E-mo-tion!

Dr. Erin Maloney (02:43):

I don’t think they can be separate. I think that you have to think about them together, ’cause they’re so intricately connected.

Dan Meyer (02:49):

Love that. People try, but we love that. Yeah. That’s our vibe here, too.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:52):

People try. That was a big problem with my math anxiety. They just wanted…there was no room for my emotion. They’re like, stop weeping at your desk—

Dan Meyer (03:00):

It’s rearranging neurons….

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:01):

—you’re distracting the other children. So would you mind telling us the story of how you even got interested in this topic? You know, when you tell people that you study math anxiety—or, actually, I don’t know how you describe it to them; I’m hopeful you bring in that well-being part—but how did you get here? What do you, what do you, what do you…yeah, tell us! We love it!

Dr. Erin Maloney (03:23):

<laugh> I feel like what you’re actually asking is, “How did you make life choices that got you to here?” <Laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:29):

Justify your life choices! Ready? Go!

Dr. Erin Maloney (03:32):

<laugh> Whoo. OK. So, all right. So we often, in psychology, we joke that instead of doing research, we do “me-search.” And that’s, that’s admittedly true in my case. I was a student who absolutely loved math up until about eighth grade, and then something changed, and all of a sudden I was terrified of math and I had absolutely no sense of self-efficacy in it. Despite trying really hard, I was extremely anxious about it. And so I initially, I set out…my parents were completely convinced that I was absolutely capable of doing mathematics and that I was getting in my own way. And when I went to university, I decided to prove them wrong. So I set out to prove that some people just can’t do math, and that’s the end of it. And, you know, 20 plus years later, my parents were right. And it turns out that many people—well, I would argue virtually everyone—can do math. And that if you are really anxious about it, it can get in the way. And interestingly, you know, in, in the years that we’ve been doing this research, there’s really good strategies that can be used—that hopefully we get a chance to chat about—that can really help reduce the amount of anxiety that students are experiencing. But I really did set out, like the bold teenager that I was, to prove my parents wrong. And that backfired <laugh>. So I know it’s kind of a strange answer, but it’s the truth. So I was really interested in understanding why it was some people just could not do math.

Dan Meyer (05:10):

That makes two for two so far, on guests for this season who did a version of me-search. And I feel like this is pretty common for a lot of researchers. Like, I wanna figure out…my experience as a teacher, the part where you, I think, diverge from a lot of people I knew in grad school, myself included, is that you actually let counter evidence change your perspective on things. Whereas I feel like a lot of us go in: “I know this is true and I’m gonna gather data!” and lo and behold, I’m true! But only now, with the research TM, you know, trademarked research, attached to it. So that’s, really exciting. Thanks for sharing that.

Dr. Erin Maloney (05:43):

No, you’re welcome.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:44):

But don’t people say that the more personal you get, the more universal it is? Right? So if you go and get your doctorate about something that you think is just your experience or in your brain, then people are gonna be gonna be like, “Wait a second; you think that too?” “Wait, that math anxiety isn’t just you?” I don’t know, it sounds like a pretty great path to me. When you tell folks that you study math anxiety or when you’re speaking to folks about your research, do you find that there is a lot of folks who relate to what you’re studying? Or how does that conversation typically go?

Dr. Erin Maloney (06:20):

Yeah, so it is I think an extremely relatable topic. Not in the sense that everyone experiences anxiety about math, but everyone seems to know somebody who’s really anxious about math. Or everyone’s at least aware of the stereotype that like some people are math people and some people aren’t, and that’s just the way it is. So it feels like everyone has feelings about math and everyone seems very happy to share those feelings. So one thing I’ve always found really interesting, and actually, so I, I know you mentioned that you had Gerardo on recently. Gerardo and I have had really interesting conversations about how people are really quick to tell you that they hate math and they can’t do math, and they’re anxious about math. And I’ve yet to have anyone ever tell me they hate reading, they can’t read, they’re really anxious about reading as an adult. So for some reason math seems really different. And in that sense people always seem to be pretty excited to talk about their feelings towards math.

Dan Meyer (07:23):

Yeah, definitely. Been on an airplane or two myself and had those conversations. You know, people asking to be reseated because they found out that I do math for a living or whatever. Or just unburdening themselves, for sure. I’m super-curious: I think that the fact that you are doing the me-search is reason enough to want to dedicate your life to this study. But I am curious: If you were gonna justify to someone else, why is math anxiety important to study? What are its consequences, even outside of math education? What would you say to that?

Dr. Erin Maloney (07:57):

So I think it’s probably not hard to convince people that success in math is important, right? So we know that children who start elementary school behind in mathematics tend to stay behind in mathematics, unless they have any kind of very targeted intervention. We know that children who do worse in mathematics throughout K to 12 education in general get lower-paying jobs when they’re older. We also know that when they do worse than mathematics relative to their peers, there’s fewer jobs that are open to them, relative to if they excelled in math. Right? And so I think in many ways there are really clear consequences for students who are not comfortable with math and who avoid it. But I think one of the really, really interesting things about math anxiety, and maybe part of why I’ve fallen in love with it as a research topic is that it’s the anxiety itself in many ways that can cause people to underperform. So it’s not just the case that people who are bad at math are anxious about it. It’s actually that the anxiety itself can cause you to do worse in math. And that for me is really exciting, ’cause it means that if we can change your mindset, then we can really set you on a path with several more options available to you career-wise. And I think that is really empowering.

Dan Meyer (09:18):

Hmm. Yeah, definitely. And I’d love for you to explore — your laboratory is the cognition and emotion laboratory, which I love, how you’re creating those linkages between how you feel about a thing and what your opportunities or your aptitude for learning it. I’m really curious, can you say more about the, the relationship there? How does feeling anxiety impair your ability to do mathematics?

Dr. Erin Maloney (09:41):

Yeah, so feeling anxiety, typically what you tend to experience is these negative thoughts and ruminations. So you can imagine, you’re somebody who doesn’t really love math, you’re pretty anxious about it; you know, Bethany, maybe you’ve had this kind of experience before. I’m gonna call you out on it. I’ve had it many times, where you sit down to do a math test and all of a sudden you’re not focusing on the actual math test in front of you. You’re focusing on things like the consequences of not doing well on this. Right? Or “my parents are gonna be really disappointed if I don’t pass this test,” or “my teacher is gonna think negatively negative of me,” or sometimes we see things like, “I’m a girl, girls don’t do math.” These types of stereotypes. And what happens is that those thoughts actually tie up really important cognitive resources, like, really important memory resources, that you need to do the math test. And so if you are trying to essentially do two things at once, right? You’re trying to deal with all these negative thoughts that are distracting you and you’re trying to do the math test, then you’re not going to do as well as someone who’s sitting down and doesn’t have all of these distracting thoughts to deal with. And we actually know that from research that we have in our lab right now, where we just ask people like, “Hey, when you did this math test, what kind of stuff are you thinking about?” what we find is that the people who are really anxious about math report a whole bunch of thoughts that are unrelated really to the math test, per se. It’s more about the consequences of doing poorly. And as a result of those thoughts, they actually end up doing worse.

Dan Meyer (11:14):

This has been really helpful to figure out, how the emotional state of doing math affects the ability to do math. And it’s really interesting how you’re saying that the direction of the causality can go from the emotions to the cognition. And I’m just curious then, what is the source of the bad emotions about math? Where does that come from? Is it nature? Is it nurture? Some combination? How do you see it?

Dr. Erin Maloney (11:39):

Yeah, so one, that’s a fantastic question. And there’s been a whole bunch of people all around the world that have been spending a lot of time really trying to pinpoint that down. And I think the answer is that it’s, you know, it’s complex. So most of what it’s looking like right now is that it is a combination of both. So essentially what we find is that kids who start elementary school who are a little bit behind in math—and for the question of why they’re behind, that’s also complex; it could be genetics, it could be just environmental input, before the child ever entered formal schooling kind of thing—but in essence, what we find is that kids that start school behind in mathematics, those are the children who are most likely to develop anxiety about math by the time they’re finished first grade. OK? But we also know that once they’ve developed the anxiety about math, then that’s when they get these thoughts and ruminations that kind of tie up those memory resources, that then is gonna make it harder for them to succeed in math tests. So you get into this sort of vicious cycle, right? Where maybe you start behind a little bit and then you develop the anxiety, the anxiety causes you to underperform relative to what you should be able to, so now you’re even further behind, you get more anxious because you’re not doing as well as you’d like to…but again, kind of coming back to the “Why are the children starting behind in the first place?” Some of that seems to be the role that parents are playing in the household. So some kids come from a household where parents are playing a lot more math games with them, talking about mathematical concepts on a regular basis. Maybe they have older siblings who are, you know, practicing arithmetic and, and mathematical processing in front of them. And so those kids are exposed to more math before they ever even start formal schooling. Those kids seem to do better. And then we also know that the parents’ attitudes matter a lot too. So what we find is that when parents are high in math anxiety themselves, especially when they help their children a lot with their math homework in really early ages, we find that those kids end up being more anxious about math by the end of the school year, and they also end up doing worse in mathematics. So it really does seem to be, you know, kind of a complex set of factors that have something to do with both maybe genetic predisposition to success in math and genetic predisposition to anxiety, but then also the social attitudes and stereotypes about math to which you’re exposed at home that really seem to be coming together to create this anxiety in young children.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:24):

I feel like everything you’re saying is <laugh>…it makes so much sense and yet it’s so often not talked about, right? Because it’s just more like, it gets boiled down to, “Oh, they’re just not a math person,” instead of all these other factors that are at play. And I completely remember the anxiety I felt, whether it was a test or not, walking into my math classroom when I was in ninth grade. And there’s no way I was set up and ready to learn. Right? <Laugh>. And something with—we mentioned Dr. Ramirez, he was talking about validating that anxiety. If teachers validate that like, “Oh, you know what, sometimes you might feel stumped, or this might feel overwhelming.” Even the power in creating space for that in the classroom, right? And acknowledging that it doesn’t—math doesn’t have to “come easy” to you in order for you to have access or make sense, is such a powerful concept. And I love the way that you are looking at all these different factors and saying, “Hey, it’s both simple and also a lot more complicated than we’re we’re making it.” Right?

Dr. Erin Maloney (15:36):

No, and I agree with that sentiment so much. Like, I think, though—one thing I will sort of caution is that I think when teachers are validating the anxiety, or when parents are validating the anxiety, I think there’s a very fine line that needs to be walked where we need to be able to say, you know, “It’s OK to struggle with something. That’s, that is completely OK.” And as we’re, you know, as we’re working towards something that’s really valuable, right? We can, we can work hard at something and by working hard at it, we’re going to get better. And I think that type of validating is really, really important and valuable. I think what we wanna be careful of is not to say things like, “Oh, it’s OK. I also never loved math.” And, you know, “Oh, I was never a math person either.” And so even though we might be bringing comfort to the the child, I think that that’s sending the wrong message. And so sometimes it’s really well intentioned and really not great—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:37):

A hundred percent.

Dr. Erin Maloney (16:38):

—in terms of the messaging. So that’s the only…so just for people listening, the only sort of caution that I would give there is that I think there’s nuances to the validating of the feelings that are important.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:50):

I am so glad you said that because as a kindergarten teacher, I vividly remember—and this is as early as, you know, the kids are five years old, right?—and I remember in a parent-teacher conference, a parent saying, “Oh, I wasn’t a math person either,” or, “Oh, no, ugh.” And they were so quick, like you said, they wouldn’t say that about reading, but they were so quick to talk about their lack of natural math aptitude, right? And, and it was really interesting because you know that even if they’re not saying that specific thing at home, those attitudes are absolutely carrying over at home. And they’re absolutely carrying over to, to how they interact with their kiddo around math and around what’s happening in the conversations about math. And I felt like a lot of times my work as a teacher was also to help support parents through their own math anxiety, and help give them some new language for how they can talk about math. And that math is more than just getting to an answer quickly. Like, let’s talk about, let’s go on math walks, let’s go on number walks, what numbers are around the home? Or oh, is that bigger than this? Do you have more of this? And even those little things, I, my hope was that it was starting to shift the conversation around what math was possible in the home, particularly when you saw that it was the parents who had palpable math anxiety. Right? And how much you know that that’s gonna impact what’s happening when you sit down to do homework together.

Dr. Erin Maloney (18:22):

Yeah. And I love that you have worked to encourage parents to do that. So we do similarly. Like even from a research perspective, where I will often give talks to parents and teachers and we talk about the idea of trying to mathematize everything, right? So just the idea that math is absolutely everywhere, and you know, whether it’s a matter of playing games in the car with your kids where you’re thinking of a number and it’s “My number is higher than 42, but lower than 80, and what number do you think I might be thinking of?” And, and gradually trying to get the child to that number. Or, you know, asking questions like, “What’s your favorite even number and why?” And just little things like that that, that I think can make math fun for kids, that help—I don’t even know how to explain it, but just that idea of bringing joy into it, so it’s not always this heavy subject that kids have to come to. So we definitely try to talk to parents about the idea of, like I said, mathematizing everything. And usually it’s well-received, ’cause often parents find it empowering, right? They’re like, “Oh, well, I could do that! But like, that’s not math!” And you’re like, “No, but it is.”

Dan Meyer (19:33):

Yep.

Dr. Erin Maloney (19:34):

Like, it is! And sometimes parents will say like, “Well, I don’t know how to do fractions.” And you’re like, “OK, but how do you bake?” “Well, I don’t know! I just, like, I know how to do those fractions!” And you’re like, “OK, but that’s the starting point. Let’s work with that.” Like, let’s, you know. And I think a lot of times, it’s reminding the parents that they’re actually far more capable than what they think they are, despite the fact that maybe they struggled with math when they were younger.

Dan Meyer (19:58):

Yeah. This is so interesting. And I feel like part of the challenge around conversations about anxiety and math and how to, how to resolve it and where it comes from, is that it, like, it presupposes a single definition of math. And so, you know, we’re talking about like how to be more mindful about math. But you know, like if kids were walking every day through a treacherous street, you know, the solution might not be become more mindful about that street. It’s just like, we gotta fix the treacherous nature of the street, really. You know, I love that we’re talking also about redefining what math is, making it more playful. That feels like a super-important component here. I’d love to know more about what you know about the role of gender in all of this. Are there differences in the way boys and girls experience math anxiety and how it relates to achievement in math?

Dr. Erin Maloney (20:48):

Yeah, so, there’s really, really interesting research on gender in math anxiety. So in general, we find that girls tend to experience more anxiety about math than boys do. So one hypothesis is that it has to do with just social stereotypes that, you know, girls are, are good at reading; boys are good at math, kind of thing. So there’s some evidence to suggest that that might be playing a role. There’s other evidence to suggest as well that maybe boys actually do experience as much anxiety, they just don’t really own up to it.

Dan Meyer (21:20):

Ooh, yikes.

Dr. Erin Maloney (21:21):

So thoughts are, you know, there’s a bit of an apprehension for males to admit experiencing the anxiety. But I think one of the things that is extremely interesting about it—at least to me—is that we don’t tend to see gender differences in young children. So in early elementary school, even though we’ll see that kids as young as six years old will experience anxiety about math, and that that anxiety is related to how well they do in math and how much they enjoy math, it doesn’t seem to vary as a function of gender at that young age. It doesn’t seem to be related to gender until kids are at about sixth, seventh grade that we really start to see this gender difference coming online. And so that, to me, suggests that it’s probably something more social than biological at play. It probably has something more to do with these stereotypes and stuff. But another really interesting—or at least, I’m biased, but to me—another really interesting line of research that comes into play—and some of this is stuff out of my own lab—so we know that boys in general tend to do better at spatial processing than girls. And we know that spatial processing is really important for math, right? So math and space are pretty connected. And by spatial processing, I mean things like being able to picture something rotating in your mind or, you know, envisioning how these puzzle pieces might fit together. And so we know that boys tend to do better at that type of processing. And the gender difference there seems to be related to gender differences in math anxiety. So there’s some speculation, too, that it might be that as the math starts to become more reliant on spatial processing, that that’s when we see this separation between boys and girls with respect to how much anxiety they feel about math. So a lot of this is to say, I think the answer to the gender question right now is what I think what we would officially call a bit of a hot mess, <laugh> where I think there’s probably more questions than answers. But I think that there’s definitely something going on. And it really seems to be coming on later in elementary school.

Dan Meyer (23:32):

That’s a refreshingly honest admission from a social scientist, that it’s a hot mess and not perfectly clear, <laugh> so I appreciate that. It’s interesting what you said about the spatial reasoning. In our work creating curriculum at Amplify, I find we lean a lot on trying to tie abstract math towards spatial topics. Like, can you estimate a quantity before you calculate it? Can you identify a pattern and where it breaks before you prove it abstractly? And, I dunno, it’s just interesting to me. I’m just thinking out loud about how I feel like math becomes more abstract rather than more spatial. The farther you venture into secondary math…I’m wondering if I misunderstand what you’re meaning by spatial, and the progression of math from K–12.

Dr. Erin Maloney (24:20):

Yeah, so I think you can still have—you can have math be abstract, but still really relying on spatial processing. Right? And I think part of that is maybe a bit of us having different definitions of when we say “spatial.” So in cognitive science, when we talk about spatial representations or spatial reasoning, it’s really like anything you’re picturing in your mind, any time you’re really picturing these things in your mind and manipulating those images at all. So if you imagine, even like at a simple level, but it’s gonna hold when you’re going more complex as well. So doing like equivalence problems, for example, where you have to balance the equations.

Dan Meyer (24:58):

Yeah.

Dr. Erin Maloney (24:59):

Even just being able to envision things kind of moving around that equal sign and bringing one piece of the equation from this side to the other is actually an extremely spatial kind of reasoning. Right? Or when you’re expanding, that’s actually extremely extremely spatial, despite the fact that it might not feel like it initially. Obviously anything in geometry is going to be very spatial. So I think, in that sense, we would argue that the spatial processing is still playing a pretty important role. But it’s maybe a different type of spatial processing than what we’re seeing at a very early level in elementary school. That said, you can completely disagree with me too. ‘Cause I could also just be wrong, and that’s fair. My kids tell me I’m wrong all the time. So I’m used to <laugh> being told that I’m wrong.

Dan Meyer (25:47):

Well, we’re a bit more deferential on this here show, with our guests. So I would not do that. But it makes sense, what you’re saying about how these are things that you manipulate in your mind, whether they are Xs and Ys or numbers and fractions. These are all things that we manipulate. That ties into differences in this spacial reasoning category, it sounds like, which then contributes to math anxiety. And it does start to feel like there’s a lot going on here, is what it feels like.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:14):

You mean hot mess?

Dan Meyer (26:16):

I meant hot mess.

Dr. Erin Maloney (26:17):

Yeah. <laugh>, I think that’s the technical term, right? I’m pretty sure that’s the technical term for it.

Dan Meyer (26:21):

I didn’t know the citation for it. So I didn’t say it. But I knew who in literature named that. But yeah.

Dr. Erin Maloney (26:28):

I’ll write something at some point.

Dan Meyer (26:30):

We’ll cite Maloney, 2022. Yeah. Yes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:34):

So I will say that one of my dreams in thinking about this season and last season, but particularly this season, since we’re really getting to talk to some researchers who get to think about this, and have really interesting conversations about it all the time…one of my dreams is that we’re bringing—’cause we do have some folks who are researchers that are listening, right? But then we also have teachers and folks who are in the classroom every day, and parents and caregivers listening. And so I think one of the beautiful things about the way that I hear you talking about it is you’re thinking about the research, but it’s so applicable. Right? And I wonder if there’s anything else you can say around it. I wanna reduce that divide, that gap, between the research that’s happening and then what’s happening with the kiddos and in the classroom and at home. And I don’t know if it’s like a magic wand thing where like <laugh> if there were changes you’d wanna see at a societal level, to try to combat math anxiety, but you see where I’m going. You know, it’s like <laugh>….

Dr. Erin Maloney (27:39):

1. So I’m gonna answer maybe in two ways. So I think the first thing that I’m hearing from you is that idea of diminishing this divide, right? And so one thing I try to keep in mind, as someone who’s a researcher and working in the lab, I will often be called in to talk to teachers and give professional development sessions. And they often want the sage-on-the-stage academic, that stands up there and tells you the answers to things. And one of the first things that I’m gonna admit when I get up there is, “I am not on the front lines.” So what I do in the lab, for me to tell you that that’s gonna work in a classroom of 30 kids who may or may not have eaten dinner that day, and may or may not have snow pants, and may or not…like it’s–

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (28:23):

Mmm, yes.

Dr. Erin Maloney (28:24):

You know, I think we also need to be a little bit reasonable. So I try really hard in my own program of research to make sure that I’m always talking to teachers and to principals and to curriculum designers to make sure that the ideas that I have make sense. In fact, one of the most recent book chapters that I wrote, I wrote in collaboration with a really good friend of mine who’s a principal, an elementary school principal, and a former math consultant. And we wrote it together, to really say like, “Hey, here’s how we can help each other inform how research can inform practice and how practice can also inform research.” ‘Cause he can come to me and say, “I’m doing this. I can’t find anything in the literature to support this, but I’m sure it works!” And we can design something in the lab to test whether or not it seems like it’s gonna work.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:11):

That’s huge. Yeah.

Dr. Erin Maloney (29:12):

Empirically. And so I think that open communication is massive. One thing that we’re doing in my own lab to try to keep that open communication available. So to anyone listening who’s ever tried to get access to a journal article, they’re held behind paywalls, right? So one, the way it works, my understanding of this anyway, is that the journal owns the formatted version of the paper. So what we do is we put up audio recordings of all of the research papers that we ever publish. So I’m pretty sure I own the words as the author, and the journal owns the prettified version that you can buy. So we audio-record all of our papers, so that if teachers or parents ever want to hear the actual science that’s going into some of these decisions, they have access to at least the stuff that we do in our lab. And we also put up an infographic for every paper, just highlighting kind of the main questions and main findings. And we do that because I think that the only way for the information to actually be useful is if it gets into the hands of the stakeholders that actually need that information.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:21):

And is accessible. That’s huge. That’s huge!

Dr. Erin Maloney (30:24):

Yeah. Yeah. So that’s one way that we try to do it. And like I said, the other thing, we try to always be working with principals and with teachers. I joke that the way that I remedied this in my own life…so my husband’s a teacher; it’s like, I just married one! It’s fine! <laugh> I can grill him on a regular basis, and be like, “I wanna try this experiment. Do you think it’s gonna work?” And he can say, like, “It’s not going to. Here’s why.”

Dan Meyer (30:47):

That’s awesome. Marrying a participant—you know, a research participant—is unethical, of course. Would not clear IRB. But turning your partner into a participant? Like, what are you gonna do? That’s great.

Dr. Erin Maloney (30:57):

Yeah, no, that’s fair game.

Dan Meyer (30:58):

Yep.

Dr. Erin Maloney (30:59):

Yeah. So that’s—I think we we compensate each other <laugh>. So, no…so I do joke a little bit about that. He was a teacher simply ’cause he wanted to be one. Not ’cause I needed him to be one. But, I think that communication part is, is really key. That’s one thing. Then the other part of the question or the other sort of piece of the question that I was hearing is that idea of, how do we fix math anxiety. Right? Like, what’s the great, “I’m glad that there’s a whole bunch of time and effort and energy going into trying to understand this, but what, where are we at?” And I think with that, it’s really, really promising. So there’s been a lot of research coming out looking at how best to help children or even adults manage their own anxiety about math. And there’s a few really interesting strategies that seem to be quite effective. So one, and I don’t know if—um, it feels weird calling him Dr. Ramirez, just ’cause I know him well!—but I don’t know if Dr. Ramirez would’ve talked about this when he chatted with you, but he has some really interesting work on expressive writing. Did he chat about that at all?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:07):

He didn’t, but I’ve read some of his work about it and I think it’s so fascinating.

Dr. Erin Maloney (32:11):

Yeah! So, OK, well, I’ll tell you about his work on it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:13):

Yes, please. Please.

Dr. Erin Maloney (32:14):

Because it’s super-useful. So when we talked about that idea of how anxiety causes these thoughts and ruminations, and they tie up the memory resources that you need, what Gerardo has found is that when you get students to write about their anxiety for about 10 minutes before they do a test, what ends up happening is they end up doing better on the test, relative to if they would not have written about their anxiety at all. And this is particularly true for students who are really high in anxiety. OK? And the idea is that all of those thoughts that they were going to have about the test or the consequences of the test, et cetera, you just kind of get ’em…it’s like a mind dump where you get ’em all onto the page at first before you even go to do the test. And now when you go to do the test, you’re not having to do two things at once. You’re no longer dealing with these thoughts ’cause you got ’em all out on the paper beforehand. And so Gerardo has some really interesting work showing that that works for math anxiety. And then it also works for just testing anxiety in general. And so that’s a strategy that I love. I also—part of what I really love about it is it’s so low-cost, right? You need a paper and a pencil and it’s great. So those are always my favorite strategies, the ones that don’t really cost us anything. So that’s one way of dealing with like the cognitive part of the anxiety. The other thing you can do is try to deal with the anxiety part of the anxiety. So for that, what we find is that the typical strategies that you’re gonna see for anxiety tend to work for math anxiety. So things like focused breathing. Right? Making sure you’re doing deep inhales and exhales. That really diaphragmatic breathing seems to be quite helpful. We know that what we call progressive desensitization is really key. That’s the idea of doing things, you know, starting with the questions that you know how to handle. And then gradually working up to the more difficult questions. So you’re sort of gradually exposing yourself to the more complex stuff. And how that can play out on an actual test at school is, you sit down, and instead of just starting with question number one, you actually read the whole test, see which questions you feel like you know the best, start with those questions, and that helps build your confidence so that you’re better able to tackle the questions that are maybe a little bit outside of where you’re currently at. So that seems to be really helpful. The other part that I will say, too, that’s extremely helpful: So we know that anxiety really ties up those memory resources. And so the more you can make the math automatic, the more immune it’s going to be to anxiety in the moment. And so I know that this part can be a little bit controversial, because we don’t wanna necessarily demotivate children, and kill the enthusiasm for math that we’re trying to cultivate…but really, you know, really committing your arithmetic facts to memory can be extremely helpful. So really learning those times tables, really learning your addition and subtraction facts. ‘Cause what happens is, then when you’re in a situation where you need that information, even if you’re anxious and you’re working with fewer cognitive resources than what you would normally have, you actually don’t need that many cognitive resources to be able to pull something from memory that you’ve memorized. So it really helps to kind of protect you against some of the negative impacts of the anxiety while you’re doing that test.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:37):

And you’re not using all your cognitive resources to figure out seven times eight, because you can really focus on what you’re trying to do with that. Oh, that’s fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Erin Maloney (35:47):

Yes. No, a hundred percent right. And so I know that’s one that, like I said, I know it can be somewhat controversial because it’s…you know, we’ve talked about—or we haven’t talked about in this conversation, but we often talk about—the idea of drilling and killing. Right? So you drill the facts, you kill the, the enthusiasm. But I think that there are ways that we can drill arithmetic facts, or help make them automatic, but still fun, right? It doesn’t have to always be in a high-pressure kind of way.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:16):

Totally. And we’ve talked about fluency, and I’m sure we’ll talk about it more in the Lounge. And that is interesting, that link between anxiety when the fluency isn’t there, that—or, of course we hear about anxiety with timed tests, but the idea of that IS something you can do to reduce it, because you have those facts just at your ready. Right?

Dr. Erin Maloney (36:37):

Yeah. So I actually, again, I’m gonna be a little bit controversial. So I don’t hate timed tests in the way that a lot of people do. But I love time to practice. So I think once we’ve got to a point where children have a fairly decent understanding of skills, of a skill, once they’ve got a fairly decent grasp on it, then I love the idea of the timed practice. So it can be still in a low-pressure situation, where in many ways it doesn’t matter if you get the answer to the question correct. But we’re practicing doing it in a situation in which you might be feeling a little bit of pressure, but it’s not real pressure, if that makes sense. And I think that can be really, really useful for students. And again, it can be done in a fun way, right? It doesn’t have to be these super-intense ways. It can be fun. But I think that in life there are situations in which the time that it takes you to complete a problem matter. And I think that we have to make sure that we don’t get too far away from that.

Dan Meyer (37:40):

Yeah. It feels like we should do an entire other episode thinking about ways to develop that fluency and automaticity that don’t contribute to anxiety, or create further disparities between people who are high math anxiety and low math anxiety. Not a small question, I’m sure. And I appreciate you alluding to all of that. You know, this whole thing, as you said, is quite the hot mess. And I feel like you, Dr. Maloney, have helped us make this a little less messy, in our heads, and hopefully the listeners’ heads. I really appreciate that. I just love…you’ve mentioned lots of resources that you have. You’ve alluded to them: audiobook-style readings of your research, which I need ’cause I just finished, you know, Harry Potter, the seventh book, so I need a new thing to listen to like that. Also infographics. Can you tell our listeners where they can find this work of yours, and if there are any other kinds of resources that you wanna plug for our listeners here?

Dr. Erin Maloney (38:32):

Yeah, for sure. So all of our resources can be found on my lab website. So the address for that is www.ErinMaloney.ca. So there we have, like you said, the infographics and the audio articles and all that stuff. And then we also have a link to a new kids’ book out, actually, that a colleague of mine and I have published recently, that really walks through some of these strategies on combating math anxiety. The book is written as a children’s book, so it’s Peyton & Charlie Challenge Math. But it secretly is a book that would also work for adults. So if you are a parent that’s a little bit anxious about math, or a teacher that maybe is a little bit anxious, and you wanna see how some of these strategies can play out, in that book—we linked to it on the website, but it is available for purchase on Amazon. And the one thing I will say about the book, ’cause this is something that we were pretty proud of, so Sheri-Lynn Skwarchuk, who is a school psychologist, and I wrote the book. And it’s available for purchase at our cost price, so we don’t actually make any money on the book. It was literally just a way of getting some of the science out to people who might be able to benefit from it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:45):

Reducing that divide!

Dr. Erin Maloney (39:46):

Yeah, well that’s what we’re trying to do! Right? So I think in the U.S., I think it’s like $6 on Amazon. And then in terms of other resources, we’re in the process right now of creating some informational videos and and stuff like that that hopefully will be useful for parents and for teachers, just in terms of understanding a little bit more about the anxiety and understanding how to deal with the anxiety in the classroom more, at home or wherever it might be coming up.

Dan Meyer (40:15):

Well, thanks so much. I really appreciate—we appreciate!—you coming on, and hearing about how you’re trying to bridge so many different barriers from research to practice, and school to home. It’s just really inspiring. And we’d love to have you back on sometime. So thank you so much for joining us.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:29):

I feel like we’ve just hung out! Don’t you, Dan?

Dan Meyer (40:31):

Are we rolling here? Oh my gosh, we’re rolling. I just thought we’re just hanging. Yeah,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:34):

I thought we were just hanging!

Dr. Erin Maloney (40:36):

I know, I do, I really appreciate that it has a very kind of chill vibe to it.

Dan Meyer (40:41):

Chill vibe. Like a lounge.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:42):

It’s the lounge!

Dan Meyer (40:43):

Thank you. You get us; you get us. <laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:45):

Dan Meyer. I was shopping for children’s books, and there was this book, and it was talking about being at home with Mom. And it’s going through all the things that the child did that day with Mom. It’s like, “We played outside, we ran through the sprinklers, we even did some homework.” And it shows them sitting at the table with the homework, that’s clearly math homework, in front of them. And the mom is like, “Harrumph!” Like a very perplexed, anxious face. And there’s all these question marks above her. And it’s just like,

Dan Meyer (41:24):

“There should not be numbers on that paper!”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:25):

Exactly. And the child is like, “Ohhhh,” you know. And I mean, I have to give credit to the illustrator, because they really did capture the clear message of this interaction, which was sitting down to do math homework or think about math together is a source of angst. Right? According to this author and according to too many people. And so I think what’s really important is that we recognize those images when we see them out there and speak back to them, and say, “Hey, wait a second.” Yeah, it can feel like that, and it doesn’t have to. And what’s going on that that’s just the assumed way that it’s gonna feel, to sit down and math together. You know?

Dan Meyer (42:11):

Yeah. It feels like we all have a lot of work to do on the whole math-anxiety front. Dr. Maloney helped us see how parents play a part, educators play a part, society and how they create people plays its own part in how we all define math as a thing where we evaluate student thought or where students play it with their thoughts, has its own huge part as well. So yeah, it was a really fantastic conversation with Dr. Maloney. I hope you folks will check out the show notes, where you will find links to Dr. Maloney’s website. A lot of her work, which as you heard, is very geared towards practitioners and parents and even directly at kids, especially the new children’s book she co-authored, Peyton & Charlie Challenge Math.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:55):

Next time we’re gonna dive even more into the nitty gritty of combating math anxiety. To do that, we’re actually gonna be joined—I am so excited about this—by Dr. Rosemarie Truglio from Sesame Workshop.

Rosemarie Truglio (43:09):

Our core audience are two- to four-year-olds, and they love math. And what’s not to love? Children don’t come with this math anxiety. Math anxiety is learned.

Dan Meyer (43:23):

So excited.

Dr. Erin Maloney (43:24):

Sesame Street was a huge part of my childhood and my toddler doesn’t know it yet, but Sesame Street is coming. It’s coming. Like, we’re we’re gonna introduce Sesame Street to him. We just haven’t yet.

Dan Meyer (43:37):

Sesame Street straight raised me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:38):

Right?

Dan Meyer (43:39):

Yeah. Don’t tell my parents. But that’s, yeah, that’s true. I’m excited, too. It’s gonna be a blast.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:45):

I’m really excited. I think that the more we dive into this topic—which, again, we’re gonna look at math anxiety from a lot of different angles—and I’m excited to talk to Dr. Truglio about how we can take this research and these conversations that are happening about math and how it can actually impact what’s happening in homes. ‘Cause we wanna help create positive relationships with mathematics, with kids in math. I’m so excited. And I hope you folks keep listening. We love having you here in the Lounge. And if you haven’t already, please subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get podcasts. And if you like what you’re hearing, please leave us a rating and a review. It helps more listeners to find the show, and let other folks know about this show. Recommendations are great. Thanks so much for listening.

Dan Meyer: (00:01)

Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. My name is Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:03)

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Hello! Happy New Year! Hello, Dan Meyer.

Dan Meyer: (00:09)

HNY, Bethany. HNY to you and to all of the listeners out there in Math Teacher Lounge. HNY is the abbreviation that I use sometimes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:18)

Oh, is that what that is? Is that—I wasn’t sure what that was. If on my birthday you send me HBD…no.

Dan Meyer: (00:25)

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:25)

No. Unacceptable.

Dan Meyer: (00:27)

I will. No, you want the full thing. To demonstrate my care for your birthday, I gotta spell the whole thing out. I’m just trying to stay relevant. You know, I’m just trying to stay relevant and youthful. So I’m using The Abreevs.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:38)

The Brevvies.

Dan Meyer: (00:40)

To the extent of even abbreviating the word “abbreviation.” . So, any New Year’s resolutions you wanna share with the listeners, Bethany? While you think, I’ll just share mine real quick here. This is the year of the perfect Wordle streak for yours truly, Dan Meyer. I’m going the full 365. Watch. Watch me do it, folks. I’m naming it here. Live on air. recorded on air. Perfect Wordle year. What you got for the listeners, Bethany?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:10)

Let’s see. It’s raining very hard here in Southern California, and my newest resolution is to embrace nature. My child wants nothing more than to go and splash in all the puddles.

Dan Meyer: (01:22)

Nice.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:23)

And be amongst the mud. And what I’m gonna keep telling myself—and so far, so far, I’ve been doing pretty good with this—thrive, child. Splash. Squish. We can dry you off. You will not melt. So I want to keep finding opportunities. Like, for instance, my response is, “It’s pouring rain. Let’s stay under covers and let’s read this book together!” And his response is like, banging on the windows, like, “Please let me go outside.” So I myself have some rain boots. I’m going to go forth and splash with my child. So hopefully you’ll see me doing that a bit more.

Dan Meyer: (02:08)

Love that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:09)

Ask me what I’m doing. I’m outside, splashing in nature.

Dan Meyer: (02:12)

I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I have felt a bit like parenting is a means for rounding out aspects of my own personality that I have felt are—or habits or hobbies that are lacking. Like, I’ve never been real outdoorsy or into camping, but I don’t want that to limit my own kids’ aspirations or interests. So let’s do the thing that’s not super natural for me, for their own sake. Which is kind of what I’m hearing a little bit from you, which—that sounds exciting.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:35)

Do you wanna go camping together? Like, our families?

Dan Meyer: (02:38)

Uhhh. Let’s take this one off the air. I also love something that’s more relevant to a teachers audience that you said, that I think is super interesting, is how there’s ways that we can make the jobs harder for ourselves, that are optional. And what I hear from you is like, “I’m just not gonna freak out. We’re getting wet. We’re getting soggy. And I’m just not gonna freak out.” And I just think that that’s interesting to think about, the things that we take on, you know, that’s optional. Freaking out is optional, sometimes. And there’s other areas, I think, for parenting or for teaching, where it’s like, “Oh, do I really need to choose this particular battle?” And to reconsider that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:19)

And in that spirit, our whole Wordle episode that we talked about? Do you remember you talked about how beautiful Wordle mistakes are, and how you keep learning from mistakes? I mean, you obviously want the final correct answer, but just, you know, when you get on a losing streak, Dan, I hope you’ll continue to pat yourself on the back.

Dan Meyer: (03:38)

Well, I will not be taking on a losing streak, or even lose one day. This is what’s gonna happen here. I’m just speaking that and putting it out in the universe.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:49)

Speak it!

Dan Meyer: (03:50)

But if it happens, I will be taking a long break from all human interaction. And lamenting, as I do.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:59)

Camping. Dan’s off in the woods, weeping.

Dan Meyer: (04:01)

That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Well, we wanna share with you folks—an exciting programming note is that we are currently working very hard on producing a special fifth season of this podcast. You thought the other seasons were special? Let me tell you, this fifth season gives new meaning to the word “special.” And we can’t wait to tell you more about that. But in the meantime, Bethany, you wanna tell ’em what we’re up to in the meantime?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (04:26)

Well, Dan and I went back and we were having a conversation about some of our most favorite conversations, or the conversations that people bring up to us. Like, when we were at the CMC conference, or NCTM, folks, when we talk about the podcast, they’re like, “Oh, I loved this one.” “Oh, I love this one.” And that, to me, I don’t know, that is exciting. And so, while we’re putting together this new season over these next few weeks, we’re gonna feature a few of our favorite conversations from our first four seasons. Dan, four seasons!

Dan Meyer: (04:59)

We’ve been at this for four seasons! And I do want to just emphasize something you said, Bethany: that all of our conversations are our favorite conversations. They’re all our special children. What we just felt like you, the listeners, did not quite learn enough from some of these, and so we really needed you to hear them again to make sure you got everything that you should get out of them. So, let’s tell ’em who’s up first. And who’s up first is a conversation we had about problem-solving with Fawn Nguyen, who’s an advanced math team specialist here at Amplify. Been a former math coach, math teacher. Just really done the work, is what I’d say about Fawn.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:38)

If you have been listening to this podcast, you’re like, “Whoa, whoa. Wait, I have not missed an episode. I didn’t hear Fawn’s interview.” That is because we used to be video only, not podcasts. So this conversation with Fawn was from, what, our second season?

Dan Meyer: (05:55)

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:56)

And we were on video. And another thing about it is it was, this is a conversation that, when folks talk about problem-solving, a lot of the responses we’ve gotten are like, “Wait, I’ve never thought of problem-solving this way.” In fact, you’ll hear us say that exact thing . So we really appreciated the time with Fawn. And yeah.

Dan Meyer: (06:17)

Enjoy it, folks. Especially enjoy Fawn’s—I think a four-part?—definition of problem-solving, a word that’s often kind of mushily defined. And Fawn really goes into, I think, precision and depth on it. So hope you folks enjoy it.

Dan Meyer: (06:35)

Give a wave, Fawn, to the camera. Would you? Cool. Fawn has been a teacher for a very long time. She is someone who could have left the classroom at any point and taken any number of jobs in the math-teaching universe. But I’ve always admired that Fawn has taught kids for a very long time, and that has given her, in my view, just a lot of clarity on what is important to her about students. I’ve seen her not get upset or obsessed with certain kinds of small niche issues that a lot of us, like, they get a lot of us down in the classroom, sometimes. And she’s maintained a laser focus on among many other things, problem-solving as a virtue in mathematics classrooms. So, please welcome Fawn to our show. Fawn, thanks so much for being here.

Fawn Nguyen: (07:18)

Hey, thank you so much. Thank you. I am so excited and honored that you guys invited me for this, Bethany and Dan.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (07:24)

Thank you for being here.

Fawn Nguyen: (07:26)

I love you, Bethany. Dan, I can tolerate, but I love you.

Dan Meyer: (07:30)

I really worked myself up there on that complimentary opening for you, and that’s how you get me back, here? OK. Problem-solving is fully on the consciousness of math teachers. Every math teacher knows that they need to say, like, “Yeah, oh, problem-solving. Yes. Love it. Do it. I dig it.” But even so, I feel like it’s become kind of a buzzword. Like, it’s not always obvious what that means…or am I doing problem-solving, really? So we’re curious: As someone who is a problem-solving expert, who is asked all over the world to talk about problem-solving: How do I know if I’m doing problem-solving in my classroom?

Fawn Nguyen: (08:12)

This is not my definition of it, but—nor am I an expert, by the way, Dan, thank you! but I try really, really hard and work on it!—my definition—or it’s not my definition, but I like it because it’s short and honest—is “problem-solving is what we do when we don’t know what to do.” And so—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (08:32)

Ooh!

Fawn Nguyen: (08:32)

—with that mind-frame, I’m hoping teachers think more about what they task. Because I think it gets mislabeled a lot, as to what is problem-solving. If the kids already know what to do, there’s a solution path. Then it’s not problem-solving.

Dan Meyer: (08:48)

Yeah. So what are examples then? An example of, like, I might call something problem-solving, but it it fails that particular definition that you just proposed there. Very short, very honest definition.

Fawn Nguyen: (08:59)

Just, it needs to have constraint and contradiction to what the kids think naturally. It should come as a surprise. There’s an element of surprise in it. There’s tension.

Dan Meyer: (09:11)

Maybe if there’s harder numbers or, you know, decimals or fractions in the same kind of procedure…I can feel myself thinking, “Yeah, this is hard. This is problem-solving. Problem-solving equals hard. But we already know what to do.”

Fawn Nguyen: (09:27)

Or just word problems. That’s the most common thing. As soon as it just has words attached to the math, it becomes problem-solving. But that’s just coding it to me. That’s just coding it with words, wrapping it around. It doesn’t mean anything until we read through and see if there’s true problem-solving in it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (09:45)

Like, what’s the moment that it becomes problem-solving? In the way that you envision it?

Fawn Nguyen: (09:53)

Well, I think there’s the bigger problem-solving of really bringing a task…I wanna call it left field. It just—we rarely ever, if ever, see it in the regular coursework, but it can also be problem-solving if we just take what we expect the children to do at the end of the unit, how about we front-load that? To me, that’s also problem-solving. And I’m trying to encourage teachers to do that last problem first. The task writers put more thought—not that they don’t do the rest of it!—but you know, this is a special one, because they label it “challenge,” or “enrichment,” or “are you ready for more?” I’ve seen those. And so it is this really special problem. And I would love for us to think about “do that first.” Because my biggest fear is that because it comes at the end, that not all the children are involved. And so that to me is the saddest part. Because we might not get to it, right? In mathematics, we always think, “OK, well, let’s do these problems and then we don’t have time for the rest.” But I think that’s your richest task right there, is at the very end. So why don’t we front-load it, start it, and it’s OK—of course it’s OK!—that we don’t all get it. But the exposure to all students is so important. Talk about, you know, equity. Talk about that, everybody gets the same thing. If everyone dug into that first one with everybody’s collaboration, and we get to share that, and then we leave it, because “Yeah, OK, now we learn more of the other stuff, right? That hopefully support. And then we can go back. And now everybody had a chance to go get into it, and then we can come back to it as, as many problems, we need to go back to it.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (11:37)

And that feels so powerful. Because it feels like—as a teacher, I’m thinking it would also inform my work, how I approach the unit, and how I approach the next steps. Right? Like, what kind of work would we be doing if I let it, if I allow it, to change the way that I approach the unit.

Dan Meyer: (11:58)

Yeah. What you’re describing is so powerful, and really asks a lot of the task designers as well, I think. There are problem-solving tasks that really require, like, abstract knowledge of the way formulas and variables fit together. And what I love about what Amplify is doing with their problem-solving, what you’re helping them do, is that they start with a true low floor that can draw in every student. And they might get stuck at different places; that’s fine. But everyone has a way in. That’s exciting.

Fawn Nguyen: (12:24)

It’s a big deal for me to have this opportunity and this trust, to integrate problem-solving into the curriculum, make it intentional. It’s difficult to implement. It is, to be honest. Because for me, what is a good task? This makes one of my four criteria: One is, it is non-routine. It is simply stated. Simply stated—that’s like your low floor. And then has multiple solutions. And the fourth: This makes it. Because that the teacher enjoys solving it. And so you have to enjoy solving it to bring it. Because so that way I can say to my kids, “This is my gift.” It really is, Because, you know, it has so much fun and joy. And I appreciate the struggle. And I wanna illustrate an example. For example, let’s say Dan and I are classmates. And I know that Dan gets A’s on his tests and the lowest score he ever got was an 89%. I, on the other hand, just sitting right next to him, I average D. I have a D average on everything. While Bethany, our amazing and wonderful teacher, brings in a problem. And when she brings it in, she says, “I worked on this problem. I found this problem; I worked on it; and I struggled with it. And it was amazing. I enjoyed it so much, I’m sharing it with you.” And all of a sudden it’s like, “OK!” And I”m sitting there, right? My teacher loves this problem so much; she’s bringing it in to share with us. And now, all of a sudden, it’s not, you know…and I know she only gives us non-routine. When she talks about problem-solving, it’s non-routine. So it’s not directly tied to the textbook that I’ve been struggling with. So it gives me a chance, it gives me a chance to contribute. To think differently. And now, suddenly I look forward to working with Dan, because in this space, in this problem-solving space, Dan is no longer Mr. Know-It-All. And so that’s what I mean by—I am saying this a hundred times, and I will not stop saying it—problem-solving levels the playing field. Our world is filled with unsolved problems. Are you kidding me? Right? We look around us, we have so many things that are not solvable, or people are working on it, and yet in mathematics, what happens? The bell rings; we start; and we solve everything during that time, and we leave. And that’s…yeah. No! No! We need to wrestle with problems.

Dan Meyer: (15:04)

And that was our conversation with Fawn Nguyen, which we first released way back in November, 2021. You folks can follow Fawn on Twitter at Fawn P Nguyen. Um, that’s @ F A W N P N G U Y E N.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (15:18)

So our episode today is a double feature. We are featuring another conversation that we loved from Season Two. This is a conversation with Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind. They’re authors of the book, “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math.” And I don’t know if you remember, but not only did we have a conversation with them, but we did a whole book study on Facebook, a Facebook Live book study, over the course of several months. And it was one of my most favorite things. And then they did a webinar at the end. So our conversation with them on the podcast for me felt like such a beautiful dive into their book. And you know, I’ve said it before, you think you have something down in the classroom, you’re like, “Oh, hand-raising, I’ve got that down.” You think you have it down, but then somebody says, “OK, but have you ever considered thiiiis?” You know, and it just—

Dan Meyer: (16:17)

NOT that??

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:18)

, Not that? Something totally different? And I loved talking with them. They’re a lot of fun. And I loved the book.

Dan Meyer: (16:23)

Wonderful conversation, great book. Very provocative ideas. Yeah. As someone who’s like, “OK, classroom management, I gotta get the hand-raising going…”. In the classroom before we talked, they offered a really potent challenge to some really standard classroom management ideas. Yeah. Loved it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:40)

And this conversation also offers some really practical tips for facilitating student conversations. So we think you’ll enjoy it. Here’s our conversation with Christy and Kassia.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:53)

So today we are talking about “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math, K—5.” And we have the authors here, Kassia Omohundro Wedekind and Christy Hermann Thompson. Before we begin, let’s define what a hands-down conversation is. A hands-down conversation is just another way to structure discourse in your classroom. So in a typical classroom, you might see students raising their hand and waiting on a teacher to call on them before they share their ideas or engage in discussion. But in a hands-down conversation, it’s students’ ideas and voices that are taking the lead, and teachers are stepping back and focusing on listening and facilitating. Hello! Welcome to the Lounge.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (17:44)

Thank you. We’re excited to be here. We’re fans of Season One. So we’re ready to go.

Dan Meyer: (17:50)

I was a secondary teacher but I still found so much to love about the book. I think facilitating conversations is just generally challenging, and perhaps even more so in math, where answers feel so tightly dialed-in, in lots of ways. But I loved it. I would love for you to just explain to our audience, what is a hands-down conversation and how does that contrast with what might be standard practice for some people? For some classes?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (18:13)

We just started using the term hands-down conversation because we wanted to differentiate the fact that there are different times to have different types of dialogue in the math classroom, in the literacy classroom. And we use this as one of our tools. Right? It’s not that every day, all day long, we’re very against hand-raising and should never see that again. We find that having this as one of our tools will be where we make really clear to the students that this is a moment where we’re turning it over to you to negotiate the space and make the decisions about when your voice comes in and who speaks next. You know, carry on kind of like that dinner table or that playground or, you know, whatever is your natural habitat for talk. And bringing that into the classroom and then hoping that it also someday transfers back out of the classroom back into the real world.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (19:09)

For the teachers who feel like that’s terrifying to have students just start speaking, and speaking without any sort of control or my little equity sticks, my little popsicle sticks, or my popcorn, or whatever other thing they’re using, what would you say is the first step?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (19:25)

So I think recognizing and naming that fear is part of it. And then saying to yourself, “What’s the worst that could happen here?” You know, I think the worst that could happen is that nobody talks and it’s totally silent. Or on the other hand, everybody talks at the same time. And both of those things will happen! And so what? It’s gonna be messy. And if you just acknowledge that it’s gonna look messy, and that’s part of growing; that every child as they learn—and every adult—is messy as they grow.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (19:59)

And we have to see what kinds of things will happen in a hands-down conversation. Like there’s no prerequisite. You just start and then you see what happens. And those are the signs that tell you, “What can help this community grow as talkers and listeners? If everyone’s talking at the same time, and they’re kind of pushing each other over with their words by saying, “I have something to add!” “I have something to add!” or something like that, that’s a common thing that sometimes happens at the beginning. Then you know that the next step is to do some work about how to hold your thoughts back, how to add, wait for a space in the conversation to talk. And those are all things we need people to know out in the world.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (20:41)

So can you give an example of a micro-lesson that…well, first, what do you define as a micro-lesson? And then, what’s an example of one that maybe somebody who wants to dip their toe into the world of hands-down conversations that they could try?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (20:56)

The reason we call them micro-lessons is because we wanted to differentiate from the term mini lesson, which is out there and tends to describe about 10 or 15 minutes that might take place at the beginning of a work period of time. And this is much smaller than that. We usually follow a pretty predictable structure of naming. Here’s this thing that’s so helpful when we’re having conversations, and we love to especially be able to name something that a student had done: “Kaylee did this yesterday and it really helped us.” So what we might call that is, “And then here’s how Kaylee and other people might do that. They might do something like this.” And, you know, having a little anchor chart, so there’s a visual reminder of that skill. “So when we’re having a conversation today, you could try…”. And that’s basically a micro-lesson, just in a nutshell.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (21:51)

When I was doing these hands-down conversations and I had more space for myself to listen as a teacher, I’m like, “Well, look at those kids, like, slumped onto the ground, like, pulling the carpet apart, but they’re having this amazing conversation!” And so I learned that listening is a lot broader. So in this lesson that I’m thinking about, we just talk with kids about what are lots of different ways that listening can look like. Sometimes with younger kids, I’ll take pictures of them listening in different ways and we’ll notice things about them together. And then we invite them to talk with their Turn and Talk partner about like, “How do you like to be listened to?” Or “Tell me about how you listen.” And just kind of broaden that. And really, I like to think that like the micro-lessons are for the kids, but also I’m saying those things to say them for myself. Like, “Remember, you don’t have to insist that kids are staring each other down in the eyes all the time. Like, “It’s OK when they’re doing other things. There’s other ways of listening.” So I think I’ve learned as much from the micro-lessons each time I do them as the kids that I’m trying to help grow as listeners and talkers, as well.

Dan Meyer: (23:00)

You folks have a lot of really eloquent ideals you express, around democratic classrooms and engagement. But you also have just some very tangible, practical…even down to, like, how a teacher positions their body in space and the way they use their eyes to connect. I think it would be really helpful for teachers to hear that it’s not just they’re signing on to a manifesto of sorts, but there’s ways they can act their way into the beliefs that you both expressed here.

Christy Hermann Thompson: (23:26)

When I’m starting hands-down conversation work, if I put myself a little bit outside of the circle and look down, and give myself a clipboard, it, it helps me bite my tongue and it helps me give better wait time and see what the kids are doing before I have that tendency to jump in and teach and do lots of teacher-y things.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (23:48)

Kassia and Christy, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have this conversation and to share your work. This is exciting. And I feel like this conversation is just the beginning of a deeper dive into this book.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (24:01)

Thanks for having us.

Christy Hermann Thompson: (24:02)

Thank you.

Dan Meyer: (24:03)

Thank you both.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:06)

Thanks so much for listening to our conversations with Fawn Nguyen and Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind, both of which were released in 2021, part of our second season. And, you know, we hoped you enjoyed listening to it for a first, second, maybe third, fourth time.

Dan Meyer: (24:24)

Let’s be real. There’s some real fans out there.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:26)

We loved it then. We love it now!

Dan Meyer: (24:28)

Yep, yep, yep. Please keep in touch with the show by following us on Twitter at MTL Show, and join our Facebook group, the Math Teacher Lounge community. We’d love to hear from you there. And please stay tuned for more info on what we’re cooking up here in the Math Teacher Lounge. Thank you folks for listening. Take care, Bethany.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:47)

Bye now.