Marilyn Dieppa (00:01):
I think my favorite thing is their success. Whether it’s robotics, whether it’s in the classroom, that they pass a test for the first time, those are my moments of success. And that’s what makes me happy.

Eric Cross (00:15):
Marilyn Dieppa is a veteran middle-school science educator at Miami-Dade County public schools. Dieppa launched her school’s STEM Academy in 2016 and developed professional development through the STEM Transformation Institute of Florida International University. Dieppa’s coached numerous new teachers and was the 2018 Miami-Dade County public schools’ middle-school Science Teacher of the Year. In this episode, we discussed her transition from a career in journalism to the science classroom and the value of personal and professional support systems for teacher longevity. And now, please enjoy my conversation with Marilyn Dieppa.

Marilyn Dieppa (00:52):
Nice to meet you, Eric.

Eric Cross (00:53):
Nice to meet you too. Thank you for being willing to come on the podcast.

Marilyn Dieppa (00:58):
Not a problem.

Eric Cross (00:59):
So you’re out in, you’re out in Florida. In Dade County. I’m out here in San Diego. So I’m like literally on the other side of the country. Have you—were you born and raised in Florida?

Marilyn Dieppa (01:09):
I’ve been here for 40 years, so I’ve been here most of my life. Yeah. I’m Puerto Rican, but I was, you know, my young childhood, I was in New Jersey. And then when I was 15, I came down.

Eric Cross (01:23):
I looked at like your—some of your accolades, which are really impressive. The things that you’ve done for students with robotics, and all the education, or, kind of like teacher enrichment, a lot of mentoring and coaching that you do now.

Marilyn Dieppa (01:35):
I am part of leadership team for the district. I do a lot of training. I work on curriculum. I help with pacing guides to make sure that everything is based on what the state wants, what the district wants. I have done a lot for the district in the last, probably 20 years.

Eric Cross (01:52):
What got you into teaching initially? What was your…like, why middle school science? We’re like a unique group.

Marilyn Dieppa (01:57):
This is the second career choice for me. So I’ve only been doing this for 24 years. I was a journalism major and then I got married and then I had my child and I wanted to do something. My thing was that I wanted to go to Iraq. I wanted to cover the news. I have a minor in Middle Eastern culture. so there was a lot of things that were in my mind when I was young, pre-married. and after, you know, you have children, priorities kind of change. So I totally changed, pretty much had to start from scratch, with my degree, because nothing kind of transferred over from journalism to teaching. So before I actually did that, I started subbing just to see if I liked it. And I fell in love with teaching right away. And that’s how I got into it. So my degree is really in elementary.

Eric Cross (02:45):
Now, when you were subbing, you were doing elementary school.

Marilyn Dieppa (02:47):
Yes. Pretty much elementary.

Eric Cross (02:48):
How did you go from there to like, middle-school science?

Marilyn Dieppa (02:50):
My thing was writing, not necessarily math and science. But I ended up with my cooperating teacher, my CT, she was a math and science teacher. So I was put with her, and who knew that I liked science and I liked math? So I ended up with that and I infused a lot of labs. So in elementary you tend to—I think teachers are a little bit afraid of the labs, so I infused a lot of literature with my labs. I infused all my—I did it like a whole-group type thing, everything I did with my labs, I incorporated the math. I incorporated the science. I incorporated, you know, the reading with it. And from there, I just—you know, they ended up putting me in a lot of leadership roles with science. And then my principal was opening up the school where I’m at now, my former principal. And she, you know, she took me with her. And so her dissertation was in looping, on how following your students, did that really make a difference in test scores? So I was part of her like test study, and I had students that I followed for two years in a row. And she would look at data and that was part of her dissertation. So that really made a difference. So I ended up moving with my students and my first group of middle-school students, I had them for four years.

Eric Cross (04:10):
Oh, wow.

Marilyn Dieppa (04:10):
And that was—those were my children. I, like, boohooed when they left. And I ended up, you know, literally following them from fourth grade all the way to more than four years. Because it was all the way until they left eighth grade.

Eric Cross (04:21):
What did you think of that model of looping with students?

Marilyn Dieppa (04:24):
I think it’s a great model, depending on the kids that you have. I love, you know, the school that I’m at. I’m very blessed, because it’s a great school. It’s really a wonderful school. I’ve had really good relationships with students. They always come back, and they always come back when they wanna tell me that they’re in something in science, right? They’re an engineer or they’re a nurse, or they’re, you know, doctors at this point. So I’ve seen a little bit of everything with my students. And it’s very rewarding.

Eric Cross (04:52):
That’s super-exciting, right? When they come back and they’re either telling you about their college major or what career they’re in. And I like to recruit them at that point and ask them to come talk to my students. Because Google photos gives you unlimited storage, if you have a teacher account, I actually have photos of students from like 10 years ago.

Marilyn Dieppa (05:09):
Oh, wow.

Eric Cross (05:10):
And I’ll put their middle school picture next to their—and then their current picture.

Marilyn Dieppa (05:14):
Oh, that’s awesome. I’ve never done that.

Eric Cross (05:17):
Yeah. You could see, like, they could see the younger version of them.

Marilyn Dieppa (05:19):
And it’s funny because even with the STEM Academy, which I have now, I have the same group of kids for three years. So I’ve had already few groups that have gone by, and those kids come back to me, they come back to our competitions, they help out, you know, they’re very integrated with the robotics. So I’m getting those students back as well. So I’ve maintained that relationship with them as well.

Eric Cross (05:46):
How do you develop your own classroom management style? How did you figure out where your—where you fit and what works for you? What was your process like for that?

Marilyn Dieppa (05:55):
You know what I think, just by teaching, teaching them to respect. And one thing that I’ve developed that—I don’t scream in my classroom; I just talk to the kids. I have very good one-on-one communication with them. I show them respect. I treat them as an equal.

Eric Cross (06:12):
And what grade are you teaching currently?

Marilyn Dieppa (06:14):
Eighth grade. So I do science. I teach high school science. I teach comprehensive, which is like our regular students. I have kids who are inclusion. I have kids that are ESL. So I teach all, you know, dynamics of students. And then I have the academy, which is something separate. But I infuse a lot of physics and of course that they need in order for them to be competitive.

Eric Cross (06:38):
So tell me about that. What is the STEM Academy?

Marilyn Dieppa (06:40):
It is an enrichment program. So it is an advanced enrichment program, because they do follow like the math enrichment. so they have to be really good at math in order for them to be accepted into the program. So, one day we got like a grant, and we got a little robot, the VEX. I don’t know if you’re familiar with VEX. I know it’s big in California. So I was told, “Here, this is for you. See what you can do with it.” So I started with an after-school club, the following year. It kind of hit off. We went to our first little competition. The kids did really well. And then the following year, they told me, “Hey, we need an academy, make it happen.” So it’s not like I had a curriculum. I kind of do my own thing. But we do a lot of different types of things. Our big portion is the VEX, but I also do sec me, we do Future City. We do a whole bunch of competitions within the district. You know, Math Bowl. So I get my kids prepared for anything that really has to do competitive-based. I do that with those students.

Eric Cross (07:38):
What age range or which grade range?

Marilyn Dieppa (07:40):
Sixth to eighth. We have kids who stay the three years and then we have kids that after, you know, sometimes it’s more the parents that want them to be part of the engineering. but sometimes we lose kids after the first year and you know, that’s fine because we wanna really have kids who really wanna be there and are, you know, committed to it. Because there’s a lot of commitments to that program.

Eric Cross (08:01):
Those types of programs, there’s so many like outside-of-the-classroom things that you need to take care of. If you’re going to competitions, and weekends, and all those types of things. Is there a team of teachers that are doing this or is it just you?

Marilyn Dieppa (08:10):
Team of one! .

Eric Cross (08:11):
A team of one! Right? Like, yeah. And how long have you been running this yourself?

Marilyn Dieppa (08:16):
This is probably like my sixth year.

Eric Cross (08:19):
OK.

Marilyn Dieppa (08:20):
So we’ve been very successful. That program is totally inquiry. It’s totally on them. I don’t know how to use a little, you know, remote control. I don’t know how to do anything. I’m there for troubleshoot and to make sure that they’re on task, but they have been very successful because I do put everything on them. And I go, “It’s not my robot. This is your robot.” So they build everything

Eric Cross (08:40):
And that seems to be the theme, especially with, a lot of times, with science teachers. And encouraging them to say, “You don’t have to be the expert in everything.” Teachers tend to be more like risk-taking and innovative when they’re willing to like, not have to be—I don’t have to know everything in order to do something.

Marilyn Dieppa (08:54):
Exactly. So we’ve been very successful. Very proud of my students because you know, we’ve, gone to Worlds twice. We’ve qualified three times in the six years. Actually, I had two teams that went last year.

Eric Cross (09:07):
What is, what is Worlds? That sounds like a big deal.

Marilyn Dieppa (09:10):
It’s a huge thing. And it’s teams from all over the world. You can actually look it up online. It’s—from this year, there were teams, although they said China was not gonna be in there, there were actually some teams from China. There were teams from New Zealand. There were teams from South Africa, the UK, a lot of teams from, from Europe. And then there are teams from here. We are the host country. We’ve been the host country for a while. But it’s amazing. The first time we went, the first team that we were paired up with was a Russian team. So, you know, there was Google Translate and the kids—and it’s, they didn’t need to know the same language because they communicated with the robots. So it was really amazing. They work collaboratively. So it’s not like a battle box. So they work two teams together and whatever, they both get together, they both earn the same points. So it teaches leadership, and there’s so much more to it than just a robot. They have to know how to communicate, because they do get interviewed. They do online challenges. It’s so many things. It’s just—I think it’s one of the best things that our district has really invested in, because these kids are so into it, and they love it so much. For the last year and this year I have the same kids that are in the robotics. I’m also gonna be teaching them physical science. So I have to teach them that separation between what we’re doing in our science classes versus what they’re doing in the class. So there has to be a separation. So they see one side of me in this class where it’s very laid back. It’s very chill. No, no, you, you guys do it. There’s no sitting down. It’s like organized chaos, I call it all the time. But then in the classroom, it has to be a little bit more organized.

Eric Cross (10:53):
Is that something that, as far as getting the parts—like people do, like, GoFundMes and donations and Donors Choose. Can you—

Marilyn Dieppa (11:00):
We get grant money, grant money from the town of Miami Lakes, the town that I work in. So the town actually sponsors us. Without them, we could not do that. It is a very expensive activity to do. If you go online and you look up the prices, you’ll be, “Oh my gosh, goodness, it’s very expensive.” You know? But the smiles on their faces when they come back and they have those little certificates, it means nothing, you know, it’s a little piece of paper. But that, to me, to them, it means the world.

Eric Cross (11:27):
Well, teachers, if you’re looking for ways to get that stuff funded, be fearless on behalf of asking for free things for your kids. Find a local business that somewhat connects to even robotics and say, “Hey, look, I’ve got 50 kids that really want to get after it. And we need X amount of dollars so we can buy those robotics kits. We’ll put your banner up somewhere. We’ll do all these other things. But come support our students. Come to the competition. Donate whatever you can for our students.” And many organizations will say, will say yes. Many just aren’t asked.

Marilyn Dieppa (11:57):
Right. And a lot of towns do have, like, education advisory boards. You wanna reach out to those people. ‘Cause those are the communities where they have money set aside in order to assist things like this.

Eric Cross (12:09):
Do you notice any carryover between the students that do get involved with these extracurriculars into the regular science classroom?

Marilyn Dieppa (12:16):
For sure. They’re more, they’re more disciplined. They tend to care more about the sciences because they see that link in the science. I mean, my kids are talking about gear ratios. They’re talking about, you know, mass accelerations. They had—they infuse all these things. And when they see it in the science class, they’re making that connection, which is really wonderful.

Eric Cross (12:41):
It seems like there’s a high level of engagement because this is an authentic thing. It’s almost, this should be science.

Marilyn Dieppa (12:46):
Yes. And not only that, the writing skills that have to be interpreted because part of the program is that they, they don’t necessarily have to have it, but in order for them to go far and make it to Worlds, they have to have an engineering notebook. So our strength sometimes is not the robot, but the engineering notebook.

Eric Cross (13:02):
his is where the journalism major shines.

Marilyn Dieppa (13:05):
Yes. And I go, “Guys, this is your Ikea manual. You have to explain what you’re doing, what pieces you’re using, what’s going right.” You know, and then they have to interpret and see what didn’t work. How can they fix it? So there’s so much problem-solving. It’s real life, it’s what they’re doing there. More so than sitting and learning rote, you know, vocabulary or whatever the case might be, ’cause they’re actually applying what they’re learning.

Eric Cross (13:31):
Yeah. And that’s, that’s so critical, the communication piece. Because seems like now in society, more than ever, even just being able to communicate something with bad science is convincing to people. Versus if you have great science, but you can’t communicate it, you’re not gonna be able to get it out into the public. It’s so great to see a program that exactly brings together this literacy aspect, in addition to kind of this content and skills aspect of doing the science.

Marilyn Dieppa (13:57):
And that’s what really, you know, since I started, that’s pretty much what I’ve done. My strength, believe it or not, when I was growing up, was not the science. I think I didn’t really have a really good science background. But I remember reflecting and saying, “I don’t want my students to feel like I felt when I was a child.” I wanna make sure that I give them everything, you know, give them the hands-on experience. I think I had one teacher when I was growing up and I still remember him. He was my second-grade teacher and he was just so amazing with the science. And it was just like the only really good experience I had. And I think that always stayed in the back of my mind. And when I started teaching and I go, “I wanna give these kids these experiences.” You know, sometimes I see kids in eighth grade and I go, how sad! They see water boiling and they’re just, like, in a lab room. And they’re just like, in awe, because there’s water boiling. And I go, “You guys haven’t seen water boil before?” And he goes, “No, no, no, not like this!” And I go, oh wow.

Eric Cross (14:58):
Even if it’s simple, everyday phenomena, everyday things that people deal with in a science classroom, or when you’re a teacher in that setting, it’s just—it just hits different, right? Like you, you know, you drop dye into water and watch it diffuse. And it’s like, whoa! Because they’re looking at it through that different lens. And that’s why one of the reasons why—I’m super-biased, but as science teachers, we get to do the coolest stuff.

Marilyn Dieppa (15:21):
Yeah, we do.

Eric Cross (15:22):
We just do. It’s so much fun. And basically anything that happens, that’s cool, like in, innovation and things like that, we can figure out ways to incorporate into our classroom. Now, as a coach and as a mentor, you’ve had multiple student teachers in your classroom. And we have, you know, huge need for new teachers. I teach teachers who are getting their CR, getting their credential. And the landscape of education is, is constantly shifting. You’ve watched it shift over the years. What are your biggest tips that you give to new teachers?

Marilyn Dieppa (15:49):
Well, I just had an intern last semester. I’ve had a few interns where, you know, not only are they doing this, but they’re also learning robotics too. So they’re really getting aspect in how to incorporate that. You don’t have to have everything separate. You can include everything together. But I think, I think it just comes from the foundation where they’re not exposed. Even me, when I went to college, I don’t remember doing so many labs as I should have. And I think it’s just a fear of them trying new things and failing. And I go, you know what? I, sometimes my first class is my guinea pig class, because I always change my labs. I don’t like to do the same thing over and over again. If I see something online, I go, “Oh wow. You know what, I’m gonna try it.” And I go, “Hey guys, this is the first time; we’re gonna do this together.” And it’s really—it’s just for them not to be fearful. And I think especially for science teachers or like even elementary, to give the kids the foundation that they need, they’re afraid. They’re afraid of failing and not trying something new, and say, “Hey, it’s OK. There’s other ways of doing this.” You know? So I always say, “My first class is always my guinea pig class, ’cause that’s the class I’m gonna try this on.” And then, you know, when you have to tweak, reflect, then we do that.

Eric Cross (17:06):
What are some of the things that you’ve seen or encouragements that you give to teachers who are teaching, kind of, in this kind of newer landscape, where as teachers, you become more than just a science teacher. I mean, you’re a mentor. You’re an encourager. Sometimes you’re a counselor for students. And then there, there are things that happen externally that impact teachers as well. It’s a tough job.

Marilyn Dieppa (17:24):
So I always say, you know, when you have a child, we have to be very aware of what’s happening with our children. Especially after these two years of the pandemic. That was kind of crazy. Last year was a really tough year, I think, for most educators that were back in the classroom. But I always tell ’em, you have to be really aware of what’s going on with these kids outside. When you see somebody who’s not doing anything and then you have the parents are there supporting. There’s something going—I mean, there has to be something going on. Kids are not just going to be so, so defiant. You’re gonna have very few that will be like that. But most of them it’s just gotta see and read those kids and see what’s going on, and don’t be afraid to—and I always say, I’m not there to really be your friend, but I’m there to help you. And you gotta tell ’em, you know, if you need to talk, come talk to me. Have an open-door policy with those kids.

Eric Cross (18:16):
What’s been your favorite part of the job? Something you really enjoy about the job? Especially having been teaching for as long as you have.

Marilyn Dieppa (18:23):
I think my favorite thing is their success. Whether they have struggled all the year and they’ve had that one piece of success or they don’t realize what they got out of middle school until they get to high school and they come back to you and they tell you it’s, you know, seeing my kids, whether it’s robotics, whether it’s in the classroom, that they pass a test for the first time, those are my moments of success. And that’s what makes me happy.

Eric Cross (18:52):
So you get those ahas, you get those wins, those turnarounds. And it’s like, “Ah, this keeps me going. This is so good!” But there’s something that I say to myself when I do get challenges in the classroom is teaching seventh grade, I say, “They’re 12. They’re 13. They’ve been on earth for 13 years. And for the first five or six, like, you know, they’re just kind of coming online at that point. And they’re going through all these changes.” And it grounds me in the fact that ’cause sometimes the things that you experience can be really, really challenging kind of interpersonally. And I remind myself, “Well, it’s like—you’re not 28 years old. Like, you’re, 12 and 13, and you need me to not be Mr. Cross, the science teacher. You need me to be, you know, Mr. Cross, the mentor, or Mr. Cross, the coach.” Like you were saying, open door. Keeping that open door, keeping that relationship. Because so much of what we’re doing is like life coaching in addition—and that connects to their success in the classroom. There’s a direct relationship.

Marilyn Dieppa (19:45):
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

Eric Cross (19:46):
Now what gets you back each fall? Because at the end, you know, every school year it’s like, “That was a tough one!” Especially with the last couple years. Right? So what’s been something, what gets you back in the classroom every fall, so that you’re ready for your students?

Marilyn Dieppa (20:02):
I think the support I get at home. I have a husband who is the most supportive person ever. He always tells me, “Your kids are grown up.” You know, my kids are adults now. “Enjoy these kids, what they’re doing. You don’t know how much they need you.” So he does tell me that. He goes, “And don’t complain! You love it!” And also my administration, they back me up. And that’s what I think what keeps you coming back. I love my administration. Whatever I ask for, they don’t tell me no. They tell me I’m crazy, but they don’t tell me no. You know, we have these huge competitions once a year at our school, administration has to be involved ’cause they have to be there, and they go, “We do this because we love you! But you know, you’re crazy!”

Eric Cross (20:48):
It’s interesting, ’cause both of these things, they involve human connection. And one is your support system at home, which is incredibly valuable. Shout out to your husband; I don’t know if he’s around. And then the culture, like, feeling supported. Teachers, you know—and it’s not just in education, but people, I’ve experienced—will work harder, longer, be more committed, when they have that intangible. When they feel like they’re connected to something bigger than them. Or on a team, not in a silo. And one person can really create or break whether that happens. And just like us in the classroom as a teacher, right? Like, “What makes you like this teacher’s class?” “Well, I feel connected. I feel safe. I feel it’s fun. It’s the culture!” I like to end with asking this question and you kind of alluded to an answer earlier, but who is one, or it could be multiple teachers, that you’ve had in your own life as a kid growing up or young person in kindergarten through 12th grade, could even be college, that has inspired you? Or made a difference in your life one way or another? Like, who pops out? I feel like we all have somebody.

Marilyn Dieppa (21:58):
One was my second grade teacher, as I mentioned before. Mr. Fernandez, never forget him. And my other teacher was my high school teacher, Mr. Velazquez. It was in New Jersey as well. And he was the one that really got me into the love of writing. He was my Spanish teacher, actually. He wasn’t even, you know—he was like an elective teacher. But he just made me believe like, “Wow, you’re like a really good writer!” To me, those two gentlemen really stood out. Very fond memories of being in school and really enjoying what I was doing.

Eric Cross (22:33):
There are so many teachers that we all have been impacted by. And many of us now who are teachers, we sit in that same seat. We fill those same shoes. And going back to what you had said earlier, one of the most rewarding things is when those kids come back to you. And I’m thinking about all the work that you’ve done, all the students you’ve poured into, all the competitions you’ve done. The ones that have come back to you are a small fragment of the ones that you’ve impacted.

Marilyn Dieppa (22:59):
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Eric Cross (23:00):
‘Cause we think about our own story, right? Like you’ve gone on and paid dividends for that one teacher in second grade. You know, Mr. Fernandez or Mr. Velasquez like, they went and they just gave you exposure to something or helped you fall in love with something. And you went on this trajectory. And if we could see the timeline of, like, this teacher created Marilyn, and Marilyn went and did this, and then what do all those students do? And that, I don’t know, there’s so many jobs that are gonna be hard work and that are gonna be challenging and stressful. But that is the thing that I think fills me when I listen to your story. I just think about like all the students throughout Florida that you have—you probably will never hear from, but have gone on to do amazing things or become great people who would go back and talk about you and say you were an inspiration for them. Marilyn, thank you for taking the time out to be on the podcast and for not only teaching students, but inspiring and coaching younger teachers and new teachers. It’s so critical. And for being willing to spend so much of your time beyond the classroom to create these opportunities for students to do this awesome, fun, engaging science, and go to Worlds. I wish you a great school year.

Marilyn Dieppa (24:11):
Thank you. You too.

Eric Cross (24:12):
We hope you make it to Worlds again and crush, in a competitive, collaborative type of environment. We’ll be checking out—I’m sure other teachers will check out Vex Robotics. Thanks for being on the podcast.

Marilyn Dieppa (24:23):
Thank you. You too, Eric.

Eric Cross (24:26):
Thanks so much for listening. Now we want to hear more about you. Do you have any educators who inspire you? You can nominate them as a future guest on Science Connections by emailing STEM@amplify.com. That’s S T E M at amplifycom.wpengine.com. Make sure to click subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And join our Facebook group, Science Connections: The Community. Until next time.

Juan Vivas (00:00):

But to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem-solver.

Eric Cross (00:28):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Juan Vivas. Juan is a supply chain engineer for SpaceX. His career in STEM has pivoted from chemical engineering to working on foods like Cinnamon Toast Crunch to his current role at SpaceX, where he’s responsible for his work on Starlink, a technology that uses low-orbit satellites to provide internet access across the world. In this episode, Juan shares his story of how he became an engineer and how a thoughtful teacher used robotics to inspire him. I hope you enjoy this great conversation with Juan Vivas. Juan, thanks for being here.

Juan Vivas (01:14):

Yeah, yeah, of course! Super-excited to be here.

Eric Cross (01:19):

Hey, and starting off, I kind of like to ask your origin story. We were talking earlier about Marvel, and your journey of one working for…what I consider the closest thing that we have to SHIELD in the Marvel stories is SpaceX. Like with my own students, we talk about SpaceX like it’s a fictional thing, and we watch the rocket launches together and we watch the recovery and it’s so cool.

Juan Vivas (01:45):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (01:46):

And so when I knew that we were gonna be able to talk to you, I was excited. Like, I felt like I was a kid.

Juan Vivas (01:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (01:51):

So I’d love to hear your origin story of you ultimately landing at SpaceX. And begin wherever kind of seems most natural to you.

Juan Vivas (01:59):

Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I wasn’t one of those kids at from a young age I said “Oh, I’m gonna be an engineer.” Right? “I want to go and build all these things.” Where I grew up, and the social circle that I had, a lot of people were like doctors or lawyers. Just figured, you know, I’ll go to med school and go down the same path that 90% of like everyone else was gonna take. But in high school, I actually got into robotics. And, kind of like I mentioned, I wanted to do med school, that is what I figured I would end up doing. And then I got into robotics in high school. And I think that was what really kind of like changed my perspective of what I wanted to do, because basically these competitions were just—it was full-on driven by students. So we designed, programmed, and manufactured, like, the entire robot itself. And so through that I ended up doing a summer engineering program at the University of Maryland, the summer before going into my senior year in high school. And there we worked on a competition with underwater robots. And so we spent the entire summer, kind of similar scenario, designing a robot, manufacturing it, programming it. And then in the end it was like a competition in the buoyancy tank with different teams. And, you know, I think one thing that was really neat about that experience is that I got to hear Dr. John C. Mathers, who is a Nobel Prize physicist, speak to us in a room with, like, only 10 high school students. And just hearing his experience of where he started and the accomplishment that he’s been able to do, down in the STEM path, was really neat. And that summer was my final decision that I’m “OK, I know I want to be an engineer.” What’s interesting is I ended up choosing chemical engineering, instead of mechanical, which a lot of people, you know, based on all the experience that led me up to be an engineer, they asked me why I didn’t choose mechanical engineering. And I think one of the reasons why I chose chemical engineering is it’s very process-based. So one thing needs to happen, and there’s different inputs to that one step, and that step has an end-to-end reaction to it, right? So certain things need to happen in step one in order for step two to occur. And however the inputs happen in step one, it’s gonna affect the rest of the process. Honestly, very different than what I thought it was really gonna be. But what’s neat about chemical engineering is that it’s one of the most versatile engineering majors that you can have. Chemical engineering, because you work with a lot of process bases. Everything has a process, right? Everything needs to start with step one, and with, you know, step 10, whatever. And it’s all about optimization and improvement along those processes. So you can really take chemical engineering principles and apply ’em to different areas of a career, which is essentially the experience that I had in college. I had three internships with Dow Chemical where I did environmental health and safety, production, and supply-chain improvement. I then did research and development with Clorox. And then I did manufacturing engineering with General Mills. So really different job roles, different aspects, but same methodology applied.

Eric Cross (05:36):

I feel like there’s so much that you just said, <laugh> and I was trying to always, “I wanna ask him about that!” And in there, what I heard was there was a real pivotable, pivot moment in your life. Was the club…or was it a club, the robotics program? Or was that a class?

Juan Vivas (05:53):

You know, it was actually…it was VEX Robotics, specifically.

Eric Cross (05:56):

It was VEX! OK. Yeah, yeah. Really popular. And they still have it; I think we actually have some downstairs. So it was a club, and not necessarily a formal environment, where you were able to build. And it’s both collaborative and competitive, right? Like, there’s both aspects.

Juan Vivas (06:11):

Yep. Yep.

Eric Cross (06:11):

And, and then you had access to one of the only two facilities in the country that have these…were they buoyancy tanks?

Juan Vivas (06:20):

Buoyancy tanks, yep.

Eric Cross (06:21):

And there’s this book, Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers, and then another similar book called Balance. It talks about how some of these innovators, like Steve Jobs and, and Bill Gates, they had access to things that other people didn’t. So, like, Bill Gates, I think at the University of Washington, had a computer that, you know, no one else did. And Jobs had one at, like, Hewlett-Packard. So it gave you this awesome headstart, where you’re able to test things in a real-life environment that kind of transfers into real-world skills. And then a few internships, so like, internships and mentors. So you had these people in the industry or people who were front-runners that were able to pour into you and give you these opportunities. And so it’s really neat to see how a program that starts as a club, kind of a competitive thing that introduced you to it and hooked you, then led to unfolding all of these opportunities that ultimately led you up to being here. And there’s one part—in looking at your LinkedIn profile, there’s a couple of really cool things that stand out. There’s a lot of cool things, but there’s two that really stood out. So one, working at SpaceX, and we’ll talk more about that, but I wanna go to General Mills and Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Because Cinnamon Toast Crunch is amazing.

Juan Vivas (07:39):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (07:39):

And you were part of the supply chain for that. In my head, I’m thinking, OK, like, what is he like responsible for? Like, getting the cinnamon and sugar?

Juan Vivas (07:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (07:51):

What was, what did your job entail, when you were running that?

Juan Vivas (07:55):

There, I didn’t even know what I was gonna be doing until my first day. It was just, whatever the business need is, that’s where you’re gonna be put. So this was actually a high-priority plan for General Mills. And the production line that made Cinnamon Toast Crunch was split up into processes. So you have, they call it the process-process side, which is like literally raw materials, like making the cereal from scratch, baking it, adding the sugar, and then sending it to be packaged. And then you have the packaging-process side. so I was then placed as a packaging process lead, for the packaging side of that production line. So I was accountable for two packaging lines that packed out Cinnamon Toast Crunch. And that is where—that was actually my first real, you know, call it “real job,” like graduated college, going straight into the industry. I was a process lead for the packaging side of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Eric Cross (08:54):

So you went from cereal to rockets, <laugh>, which which is an amazing trajectory to have.

Juan Vivas (09:03):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:04):

And when you kind of mentioned, back in your story about medical school, and, you know, it’s kinda like, what you see people doing, and you’re “OK, this is what I think I wanna do.” And then we have a perception in our mind about what a certain job’s gonna be like. And then reality hits. I think a lot of—when I ask my students, “What do you wanna do?” They think, like, “lawyer!” and when they think “lawyer!” they’re like, “I’m good at arguing!” Right? And until they find—until they talk to some lawyers and they find out like what that career can look like.

Juan Vivas (09:28):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:28):

You’re not just in the courtroom showing off your arguing skills. But, like, an engineer, when I talk to my students about what does it mean to be an engineer, often it’s very linear. It’s “I build bridges,” or, you know, maybe cars, but you’re a supply chain engineer. And, and that’s something that I think, now more than ever, it’s probably an incredibly critical role, especially considering that all of these supply constraints. Can you—what is a supply chain engineer? And what does it look like in your day-to-day? How is engineering rolled into that?

Juan Vivas (10:03):

Yeah, yeah. I think that’s an excellent question. I, too, once thought that engineering was just “I’m gonna be actually making something physical,” and like being super engineer-y about it. But, to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem solver. As a supply chain engineer, specifically right now in my role at SpaceX…you know, as you can guess, the supply chain in the entire world is crazy. There’s no raw materials anywhere, and nothing can ever get on time. And so what I work on is I help our suppliers develop processes to meet the design criteria that we set up for like a specific part. As my job as a supply chain engineer, it’s “Can I take this design and make it manufacturable?” Right? “Can I go to any supplier and can they actually make this to the tolerance that the design engineer set them to be?” Nine out of 10 cases, the answer is no, essentially, is the best high-level way to put it.

Eric Cross (11:10):

When you’re solving these problems, is it this iterative process of going back and forth? Or is it just this aha-moment when you finally figure things out? ‘Cause I imagine they’re coming up with a design; you’re going back and saying, “Can this be manufactured?” or “Can it be done?” They’re saying no 90% of the time. And then are you the one responsible for kind of iterating on this, or changing it and then going back to them and telling them, asking them, until you get a yes? Is that—

Juan Vivas (11:33):

Yep. Yep, yep. Exactly. So we go through a process called Design for Manufacturing, DFMing. And where I essentially take, you know, the design engineer’s proposal, and then I have conversations with the suppliers, and then, that’s where the iteration begins. Where we go back and forth, back and forth, until we kind of meet in the middle to have something that can be manufacturable. Most of the times, in my experience, suppliers will always tell you no, just because they always want something that is manufactured really easily. And so you just gotta learn through experience. Like, when are they actually telling you something that’s a fact, versus when they’re just trying to you know, get out of a tolerance, or that “all right, all right, they mentioned that would just like make their jobs a little bit more difficult.”

Eric Cross (12:17):

So I’m hearing like there’s soft skills that are woven into the technical skills that you also need to be able to have.

Juan Vivas (12:23):

Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, as an engineer—and this is something, again, that I feel like you can only learn through experience—you’re gonna see that it’s not just you working to solve this one problem. Especially for a supply chain engineer. You’re talking with marketing; you’re talking with an industrial design team; you’re talking with logistics; you’re talking with procurement, materials management—just a whole set of people that don’t necessarily have technical background. Right? So sometimes, depending on the audience that I’m targeting, I’m always very, very peculiar on what is my target audience, right? How can I—how deep in my technical knowledge do I need to go? Because if I just, you know, talk straight Engineer, they either don’t care or they’re gonna be really confused about what I’m saying. So there is a stronghold of soft skills that definitely go into engineering, which I think are really important to communicate, you know, to, let’s say, students that are really interested in engineering. So you can be extremely smart and intelligent and really good at problem-solving, but if you don’t have those soft skills that you apply in the real world—’cause in the real world, you’re never only gonna be working with engineers, no matter like where you’re at—so having those soft skills to be able to manage with different backgrounds and different sort of people and different ways of thinking, it’s, I feel, really critical, for, for an engineer in the real world.

Eric Cross (13:50):

No, I think that’s a great point. It reminds me of teaching! And so many other professions where your ultimate goal is to really pour into this person in front of you and help develop them and create a sense of inquiry and wonder and personal growth and inspiration. But you’re also working within constraints and people and relationships. You know, you have your other teachers, you have parents, you have administrators, you have a district, you have communities, stakeholders. You have all of these different dynamics that you have to kind of navigate in order to ultimately help this child thrive. Versus just, like, being in the classroom: “OK, I just got <laugh>, the hundred or 200 students, just you and me. That’s it.” But that’s not the real world. And there’s this report that came out, I think Google ran it, Project Oxygen and Project Aristotle, and they asked the question, “What are the most effective traits of a good team and a manager?” And the top seven skills were all soft skills. So it is like exactly what you’re saying, where, yeah, it’s great that you have this technical aptitude, but if you’re not able to work with other people, problem-solve together, work with people of different backgrounds and perspectives, then you’re gonna run into some roadblocks. And that kind of dovetails, like, looking at things like if you looked at education from the perspective of an engineer. So you’re all about optimizing, right? Optimizing, working with what you got. When you look at education, are there any things that you would optimize to help improve the experience of students? Like, looking back, that you would fine-tune, that you think could provide better outcomes in the classroom?

Juan Vivas (15:28):

You know, I feel…I don’t know. Obviously I’m not a teacher. And I’m sure teachers just have so much stuff going on. But I think just like, finding…giving a chance to those students that you see a lot of potential in and really taking the time to mold them. You know, I did have a teacher who was able to mold me and give me that kind of one-on-one personal experience, right? I think honestly to me it just comes down to mentorship, and motivating students on what, you know, they’re passionate for. Like, putting them in front of engineers, right? Like finding engineers to come volunteer and explain to them. I genuinely believe it just takes one spark to really get a student on a trajectory where they can make an impact in the future. So to me, it comes down to, really, exposure. How much are you really exposing your students to…you know what, something I’ve learned, when I joined SpaceX, is that Elon doesn’t believe—well, you know, there there’s a lot of things that Elon believes and not believes in; there’s a whole different type of conversation!—but he doesn’t think that you can just take a curriculum, let’s say, and just apply it massively to everyone and expect like everyone to be it. That’s just naturally not how it works, right? Students learn at different paces; they have different sort of interests. This is actually why he created his own school for his kids in LA, called Ad Astra. You know, if you take that mentality, what that school is doing is that they’re working at the students’ pace and at the student’s interests, right? And I actually have a coworker who has his kids in that school. And I mean, these are one of the most brilliant kids I’ve ever known. Like, they are taking differential equations in the eighth grade. And I didn’t know what differential equations was until I was in college already and they told me, “This is a class you have to take.” <Laugh>. But it’s finding that crossway where, where is the curiosity of the student? What are they really interested in? and exposing them to that.

Eric Cross (17:51):

Yeah. And what I’m hearing of that is, in teacher-speak, a lot of personalized learning. Like you were talking about…is it Ad Astra?

Juan Vivas (17:59):

Ad Astra? Yep.

Eric Cross (18:01):

Ad Astra. You know, every student learns in their own way and they develop knowledge in their own way. And being able to personalize learning according to the students’ abilities and needs, and then accelerate or slow down, really produces some amazing effects. I know this is something that we as teachers try to do with the classroom. Scaling it is the challenge. But it’s great because even with people who are in charge of policy or people who have decision-making ability, hearing people from the top down saying, “Hey, look, this is what worked for me. This is how I was able to become successful. I had a teacher that was able to be a mentor to me because they knew me, they had a relationship with me, they were able to tap into my passions and use those passions to drive me to do or put me in programs that I might not have known about because they, they knew who I was.” And it’s not one-size-fits-all for everyone. So having—maybe it’s curriculum or learning experiences that are kind of modular, where students are able to maybe try on different things and get that exposure, I’m a big, big believer, like you are, in mentorship. That was a huge, huge thing in my life. Having mentors. It’s the reason why I became a science teacher. In seventh grade, I had a mentor who had us doing college-level science, you know, at UC San Diego. And it completely changed the trajectory of my life, in a direction that I wouldn’t have had without him. So I think that’s great. And it’s something that we as teachers would appreciate hearing. Going back to what you said…earlier you said your wife is a supply chain engineer as well. And so that means that there’s two people who are process-minded in the household. And this is kind of a lighter question, but I gotta wonder, do you have the most optimized flow for grocery shopping? <Laugh> Because…

Juan Vivas (19:49):

Yeah, I think we don’t spend more than like 20 minutes at a grocery store. Mind you, we only shop at Trader Joe’s and we have a very specific list before going in. And if you ever shop at Trader Joe’s, you just know where everything is ’cause it’s always there and it’s small, right? But yeah, like we’re, we’re in and out in like 15, 20 minutes. It’s great.

Eric Cross (20:11):

I love it. I love it. I feel like I’m that way by design. I go in with a purpose and this is exactly what I want. I know where the cookie butter is, <laugh>, I know where my coffee is, and then, OK, I’m in and out. Apple Pay or whatever I’m using. And then we’re good to go. Do you think…so as someone listening to this or some people even just becoming aware of supply chain engineering, what advice would you give someone that’s interested in pursuing this career path? If you maybe reverse-engineered your process, knowing what you know now, you were gonna give advice, you were that mentor, what are just some kind of tips or ideas or thoughts or trajectories that you’d think that they should aim for? I’m assuming like robotics….

Juan Vivas (20:56):

Yeah. You know, I think I would say definitely finding some sort of program that exposes you to a lot of things that you won’t be exposed to, like on a day-to-day basis, or something that you just can’t be exposed to naturally at school. And mentorship, honestly. I was born in Colombia and my parents were both—they’re still both professionals, but they were both professionals in Colombia. And when we moved to this country, this was like December of 1999. My parents started from scratch, and so they didn’t really grow up in the States, right? So when it was my time to go to college and do all of this stuff, it was just like me on my own figuring this stuff out. And, you know, they definitely made some mistakes when it came to college applications and whatnot. But once I was in college, I knew that the best way for my success was gonna be through mentorship. And that’s when I joined the, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, which is a nationwide organization. And each college, well, most college campuses, have their own chapter. In joining that, I was exposed to resume workshops, mock interviews—basically how do you even talk to a recruiter? Which is so critical, right? And personally that that organization was really what molded my actual professional career.

Eric Cross (22:19):

There’s this theme that I’m hearing, kind of weaving through this. And in addition to—as we’re talking about STEM and technical skills, in addition to that, there’s this thread that I’m receiving of…being able to form relationships with other people, for our students, is an important skill to teach and should be taught explicitly. Which isn’t…it’s not really a curriculum, right? Like, you don’t get tested on your ability to….conflict resolution or how to write an email or how to develop a relationship. And then the other part in I think what you just said is the aspect of community. Through this organization, you learned kind of some of these hidden rules, maybe I would call it.

Juan Vivas (23:04):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:04):

It’s not that you didn’t have the…you had the aptitude. You had the drive. But there were these kind of hidden rules, and from moving to the US, you needed a community to be able to show you, so that you can kind of go through the proper steps.

Juan Vivas (23:16):

Exactly.

Eric Cross (23:17):

And so that created a lot of value for you.

Juan Vivas (23:19):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:20):

Well, the last question that I have is, is just kind of a wondering. You have this awesome story, and the story continues to unfold. I gotta say, <laugh> I’m gonna be following your LinkedIn profile, because I think you just have kind of the coolest trajectory of going from, you know, General Mills, working in chemical engineering, and then ultimately it’s SpaceX. And every time I see the rocket taking off and landing, I’m gonna be thinking, thinking about you. So cool!

Juan Vivas (23:47):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (23:49):

And personally, I have a hope that one day, one of my students will be at a company, you know, like SpaceX or Tesla or wherever, and one day I get to interview them and talk to them and see what they say. But the last question I want to ask is, is there, is there a teacher who inspired you, or a memorable experience that you have that made an impact on you?

Juan Vivas (24:16):

Yeah, yeah, of course. It was kind of you know, middle school going into high school. The way my school worked, everything was divided from pre-kindergarten, whatever, first to sixth grade, and then seventh grade to 12th grade. So I had a high school science teacher, Ms. Brown, Ms. Velda Brown, who, came from a small little island town on the east coast of Canada. Somehow landed, in the high school that I went to, to teach science. Going back to the beginning of the story where I mentioned that I figured whatever, I’ll go to med school. I played soccer, basketball, and, you know, I said, “I’ll figure it out once I graduate.” It might have been like life science in the eighth grade or something like that. But then she went on to teach me chemistry and physics as well. And when I was in the 10th grade, she approached me and she asked me if I wanted to join the robotics club. And I remember saying robotics? I don’t know. You know, naturally, in school, it’s different sorts of crowds: people that play sports and people that are like in like STEM clubs or whatever. And I was, “Ah, I don’t know; I don’t know how I feel about robotics; not really my thing….” But somehow she convinced me to join robotics. It’s me, coming into this group of kids that already knew each other, and they were all working on robotics. And I’m, “Yeah, I mean, I guess I’m just here to try this thing out.” It was a thing where we met every single Saturday at like seven in the morning. And there were times where I literally had to choose, “Do I go to like a soccer game or do I go to you help my team with robotics?” And I completely loved it. Like, I fell in love with the aspect of building something from scratch, and just making it operative. And she ended up just being a huge mentor for me in high school, actually. With her, with the help of her, I ended up opening the robotics club at my school. And before I left, we opened it up to middle schoolers. And then, you know, later, years later down the road when I was in college, I found out that it was now a whole-school thing. So there was an elementary robotics club at the school, the middle school one, and then the high school one were still a thing like years after I left. And that was like just so amazing to hear. But yeah, it was Ms. Velda Brown, my high school science teacher, that really took her time to mold me and get me into robotics, and really mentor me. And honestly, I’m sure you as teachers, you guys probably hear about it a lot, but you can have a lot of power in shaping a kid by just telling—believing in them, right? She believed in me so much that I would go on to be a successful engineer. And I’m. “OK, yeah, yeah, you’re just saying it.” But she spoke life into her students up to this day. I still speak about it with my wife, and when I’m in conversations about this, that if it wasn’t for my high school science teacher, I would not—well, no, I would probably not be an engineer right now.

Eric Cross (27:38):

Wow. Shout out to Ms. Velda Brown <laugh>. Would you say she spoke…I think one thing that just resonated with me is when you said she “spoke life” into you.

Juan Vivas (27:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (27:46):

That was really powerful. And I think we as teachers have that power and we don’t realize it. Because, you know, we get so we’re so familiar and living day-to-day, but we do have the power of life, speaking life, into our young people. And, yeah, that was—

Juan Vivas (28:03):

Absolutely, yeah. You know, I think obviously people grew up with different backgrounds, different communities, life situations, right? So imagine having like a student that is similar in that environment and then they just hear someone at their school, like, “Hey, you’re really good at this. why don’t you consider doing this?” And that’s when I feel teachers have that power. Where like they don’t necessarily know the background, but they can make that opportunity, or make that decision in the moment, to really shape a student’s life.

Eric Cross (28:37):

And we need to hear that. And I think, I hope that other teachers listening to this will be reminded that many times we don’t get to reap the harvest. We don’t get to see the <laugh> Juan Vivases at SpaceX. They just kind of go, and they disappear, and we hope for the best, and we get a new group. But every once in a while they come back, and we get to see what our watering or seed-planting was able to produce. And so, just know that you sharing your story for educators, and for definitely Ms. Brown, makes a huge difference and is a huge encouragement. So.

Juan Vivas (29:11):

You know, I think we touched on earlier, you know, how do I end up going from cereal to rockets, right? And I think it ties along with what I mentioned earlier of just taking—as an engineer, you’re really a critical problem solver, right? And you think that methodology. And if you find a way, you can apply it to different sectors. When I was doing a lot of like the packaging process stuff at General Mills, being a lead on a high-volume manufacturing line, what I do for SpaceX specifically, right now, I’m actually on the Starlink project. So if you’re up to date with Starlink, it’s, it’s essentially high reliable, fast internet that we’re providing to areas where usually people don’t have access to internet, right? Or maybe they do, but it’s extremely expensive. Because to an internet provider company, the benefit is not there, if they extend an entire internet fiber line out to their place because it’s only directed to them, right? So that’s, that’s essentially what Starlink is trying to solve. And this is the first time that SpaceX is facing a consumer packaging scenario. Before it was just rockets. And now they’re selling a product to consumers. They had never done that before, especially in a high-volume manufacturing setting. And so I am the supplier development engineer for all the consumer-facing packaging for the Starlink product itself. And that’s essentially how all those thoughts connected, where I had this experience coming from General Mills and packaging high-volume manufacturing. And then when Starlink started, they’re all, “Right, well, who knows anything about packaging?” Right? “We know so much about rockets, we need someone with this technical background.” And that’s essentially how I bridge over to SpaceX.

Eric Cross (31:11):

And so while you’re working at SpaceX, you’re working on Starlink, which I know you mentioned that—you said that it’s providing internet globally, which in and of itself, we—especially those of us that live in major cities—we kind of take for granted. Internet is like a utility. But we don’t maybe realize that in many parts of the world, internet is not reliable or even accessible.

Juan Vivas (31:33):

Right. Right.

Eric Cross (31:34):

I see every once in a while, I think, the StarlinK satellites sometimes are visible?

Juan Vivas (31:38):

Yep.

Eric Cross (31:39):

Low orbit?

Juan Vivas (31:39):

Yeah. Yeah. You can go—they’ll kind of be like a little train of bright stars that move along together. Yep.

Eric Cross (31:46):

And that must—that must feel…I mean, we all have jobs and we’re all doing different things, but you’re working on a project and you’re engineering something that actually can provide a lot of opportunities or close a gap in some parts of the world where they don’t have access to internet. They’re gonna be able to have access and be connected all over. I dunno, the word would be “existential.” Existential value. Like, what you’re doing is actually providing a service for people. Humanity. Like, addressing a critical need in many, many places around the world.

Juan Vivas (32:26):

Yeah. We’ve had stories where we have sent Starlink kids to a small school in a village in rural Chile, right in South America. And for the first time ever, they’ve had internet. We have supported disaster relief in Europe. I think this past summer, Europe had really bad floods. We sent Starlink kits out there. You know, the vision of working at an Elon Musk company and SpaceX and Starlink—this is all stuff that is being done for the first time in history. We have never, ever done anything like this before until now. And to be able to provide those that don’t have the access to—to your point, it’s kind of wild, right? Like we, we just take it for granted. “Oh yeah, I just have internet. Let me log on.” There are people on Earth right now that have never been on the internet. Or don’t even know what the internet is. And that’s essentially the, the gap that Startlink is starting to close.

Eric Cross (33:26):

Yeah. We think about that while my students are doing TikTok dances. <Laugh> And there are people who, you know, never, never been connected. And, it kind of makes me more like, just inside, if I can ask: What’s it like working at SpaceX? I showed my students what it’s like working at some of the Silicon Valley companies. ‘Cause just to show them there’s slides and food and, you know, they kind developed this ecosystem inside so that it’s really kind of homey to kind of keep you there, you know. When you’re working and there’s bikes and things like that. And that’s a very Silicon Valley type of thing. But, you know, in listening to you talk about SpaceX and Elon, you know, you’re with a really visionary kind of company, and when I hear you talk about it, there’s I can hear this passion, this, “we’re doing something.” Is that culture, like, pervasive everywhere? Are you around folks that kind of are on that same wavelength? Because I definitely get it from you as you talk about what you do.

Juan Vivas (34:28):

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. I think, as an engineer, you know, going to SpaceX and working at SpaceX, it’s essentially—personally, I believe right now in the US it’s like the mecca of engineering, right? Like, it is where engineering in this most, you know, shape and manner, it’s being applied. I think what’s really interesting is that the way that Elon looks at it is just iterate, and iterate fast, right? Like, fail and fail fast. I think as an engineer, you always want to have things perfect, right? And so you spend a lot of time in making a decision or investigating something or whatever. And working at SpaceX is the complete opposite. It’s just you know, “Assume, state your assumptions—like, what are you assuming right now? What are the risk at it? And just make a decision and then see what the result is.” You know, so it’s an environment where you learn, really quick.

Eric Cross (35:28):

You said something that I think was powerful and I hope, I think <laugh>, this is definitely, I’m gonna get a clip of this <laugh> of you saying it. Because it speaks directly to, I think, what a lot of students struggle with in the classroom, is there’s this competition or feeling that you always need to be right. And you need to be right the first try, on the first time. And a lot of times it’s because students will compare themselves to each other, or there’s a tremendous amount of pressure to be successful. But you said, “Fail and fail fast, iterate, state your assumptions.” And it sounds like this critical part of being an engineer or in what you do, like there’s no room for ego or attaching your identity or your sense of value or worth or ability to whether you’re able to solve a problem in the first try.

Juan Vivas (36:13):

Yep.

Eric Cross (36:14):

Like, you have to be OK with the cycle, is kind of what I’m hearing from you. Is that, is that right?

Juan Vivas (36:19):

Yep. Exactly. It only took six months to develop the product from scratch and launch it to the public, which is insane. Nowhere in the world will any company ever iterate that fast and come up with a brand-new project. But it’s because of that mentality—like you’re saying, it’s not about like just trying to make it perfect and have all this information. And I think Elon has learned this personally, you know, through Tesla and the beginning of SpaceX. It’s, “I can wait to have all this information, and most likely I’m still gonna be wrong after I make the decision.” So it’s, “Might as well take the risk, do the decision, and then just see where you learn from it, right?” And then you keep applying that, applying that. So it’s like you iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate until you get what you want.

Eric Cross (37:00):

I think this is even, like, great advice. I’m taking this personally because I get paralysis by analysis <laugh>.

Juan Vivas (37:06):

Yep.

Eric Cross (37:07):

You know, I’ll research something to death but then not actually execute. Like, I need to make a decision and do it and then course-correct along the way. Somebody once told me it’s a lot easier to turn a moving car than it is a car that’s sitting still. And so as you’re kind of flowing, you’re just making these adjustments along the way until you end up on the path that you want to be. So I think that there’s so many gems in the things that you’re saying right now. What I’m thinking through the lens of my seventh graders that want to work in any STEM field—I mean, really, any field in general, but especially engineering, especially the STEM fields—knowing that, pick it, make a decision, move forward, and then course-correct along the way. That’s what science looks like in the real world.

Juan Vivas (37:49):

Yep. Exactly. Yep. And definitely most important—and I feel like this is sometimes where, not necessarily education in general, but it’s just, we want students to, “OK, you need to get it right the perfect time, right?” But it’s like, every student is gonna think differently. A student is gonna take a different assumption based on their background and experiences. And I mean, you know, we can go a lot deeper in that, but the way a student is shaped, they’re gonna take certain assumptions. So that’s where it gets interesting. OK, why are you assuming that? Where’s your thought process in this?

Eric Cross (38:25):

And we all come from different backgrounds and mindsets and filters and biases that cause us to look at something a certain way. And it’s not just like calling it out, just going, “Hey look, this is what it is.” Like autopsy without blame, this is what I’m working with. Let’s discuss it openly. Right? And if we started that process earlier, you know, younger, in classrooms, we can de-stigmatize the right answer being the best answer more, as opposed to focusing on process as opposed to outcome. And then you kinda get used to wanting to go through the process. I look at it like video games and I talk to my students. I say, “You know, you don’t pick up a video game that’s brand-new and then play it and then you die once and you’re ‘Ah, I’m never gonna play this game again.’ You know, it just doesn’t work that way. You’re going through this iterative process, and no matter what you play, you’re trying things differently. You’re data collecting. And then you’re making new decisions based on the data that you collected.” And for some of my kids, they’ll just raise their hands, say, “No, I just get mad and throw the controller across the room.” <Laugh> But I go, “Yeah, and then you’ll try it again.”

Juan Vivas (39:33):

The best way to know how not to do something is to fail. And so you already…I mean, what is that famous quote? I think that’s why Thomas Edison’s, “Oh, I, did not fail 99 times. Right? I only found 99 times…” I mean, that is that is true. And I feel like at work in a SpaceX, that is something that probably the core of it comes from there. It’s you know, any failure, quote unquote, that you may take it as a failure, it’s really not. You’re just “OK, we, we tried that. It didn’t work. Like what are we gonna do next?” So it’s just like taking that learning and like moving off with it quickly.

Eric Cross (40:09):

I heard a couple of teachers say, “Things fail: First Attempt In Learning: F A I L.” And then another teacher, one of my mentor teachers, she said, “There’s no such thing as failure, just data, in science.”

Juan Vivas (40:20):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Exactly. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:23):

And so I’ve always taken that to heart. And I share that with my own students, just, “A ‘no,’ a lot of times, will tell you more information than a ‘yes.’” ‘Cause if something works in the first try, you may not exactly know why it worked. It just did.

Juan Vivas (40:34):

Yeah. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:37):

So yeah. Well, I went on your time, brother. Dude. <laugh>. The time flew. It was…

Juan Vivas (40:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (40:47):

There were so many things I was trying to write out as you were talking, that I just felt like, “This guy is sharing so many gems!” But yeah, I want to thank you for taking time outta your day and for sharing that information for your passion for what you do. And, I don’t know, I think that students and teachers that listen to this will get an insight from a perspective that really matters. ‘Cause ultimately we’re, we’re trying to really prepare our students for real life. Maybe I’ll email you privately if I order a Tesla, if you can move me higher up the Cybertruck line. <laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:22):

Yeah. No promises.

Eric Cross (41:24):

<laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:25):

Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys having me, having me here, and be able to speak on my experience. And hopefully it sparks a couple, one, even if it’s just one teacher that will spark another student, that is already success there. So.

Eric Cross (41:42):

Well I know, I know what you said resonates with me and it fills my cup. And I’m excited. So I’m already thinking of some ideas of things that I can do, just because of this conversation, and I know other people will as well. And, again, this is Juan Vivas, who’s a supply development engineer at SpaceX. He’s worked at some amazing places. And someone who believes deeply in not only the power of the technical skills, but the heart skills, and how community makes a huge impact in his life. It made a huge impact in him ultimately becoming a scientist, and now working on a project at SpaceX, Starlink, that is going to provide access to the world, to the web. And that’ll ultimately help us solve more problems and innovate and create some solutions that will benefit everybody. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

Juan Vivas (42:30):

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Eric. Appreciate it.

Rebecca Abbott (00:00):

So it’s not like you have to teach language arts or literacy in a separate block and then put all that language arts and literacy away, and now it’s time for science. But really you can think about them merging together.

Eric Cross (00:25):

Welcome, everybody. This is Eric Cross with the Science Connections podcast, and today we have Rebecca Abbott from the Learning Design Group at UC Berkeley’s Lawrence Hall of Science, otherwise known now for short as The Lawrence. Is that what you call it?

Rebecca Abbott (00:41):

That’s right. We’re calling it The Lawrence.

Eric Cross (00:42):

The Lawrence. I changed my school. I teach at Albert Einstein Academy. We just need to call it The Einstein. I like the name The Lawrence. Rebecca is a professional learning lead there. And is it fair to call you a literacy guru? I’m calling you that. Is that…?

Rebecca Abbott (00:57):

Sure. If I’m gonna be a guru of anything, I like the name Literacy Guru.

Eric Cross (01:02):

I am going to say that some of my colleagues would be proud—my professors, when I was in a credential program—because one of the things they taught me when I was getting my credential years ago is that we’re all teachers of literacy. When I was getting my science credential. And that was ingrained in me back then. And so I know they’ll be really excited to listen to this one. And so, Rebecca, welcome.

Rebecca Abbott (01:26):

Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Eric Cross (01:28):

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey to the Lawrence Hall Science and becoming the professional learning lead and teaching teachers about literacy?

Rebecca Abbott (01:39):

Sure. Yeah. Happy to. So my background is that I taught elementary school. I always wanted to be a teacher. And I came to the San Francisco Bay Area and started teaching mostly third grade. And then I also taught—I was also an instructional coach. So I moved from being a classroom teacher for many, many years to working with teachers. And so that was one big leap where I…if you’re a classroom teacher, you know that that there’s a weird feeling you get if you’re out of the classroom. Like everyone else is teaching, and I can walk around in the hallway during the day! But that was just an opportunity to work with teachers and see a wide variety of instructional practices and a wide variety of kids. And I just loved seeing teachers’ growth over time. And so that was my first step towards professional learning, where I would work with teachers individually and coach and that kind of thing. But my focus was really in ELA and in reading. And I was early reading intervention instructional specialist and a multilingual learner specialist. And so all of that led me towards professional learning, as I mentioned, and in particular in the integration of science and literacy. And so my first introduction to the Lawrence Hall of Science was through a couple of workshops that I took that introduced P. David Pearson, who is the actual literacy guru of our project. And he was the Dean of the School of Education at UC Berkeley. And he collaborated with the former director of the Learning Design Group, named Jackie Barber. And so the two of them got together and had this question of what would it be like to infuse literacy in the service of science? And they created this project that did the research and got into the development of what that might look like in classrooms. And so I was introduced to the project through a workshop with David Pearson. And then, amazingly, they had a job posting for a professional learning lead, or at the time it was professional learning specialist, with this project, that merged exactly the kinds of things that I was looking to do.

Eric Cross (03:46):

And so now you’re in this role where you went from being in the classroom to coaching and training teachers locally at your school, and then now you’re doing it for Lawrence, across the nation, equipping teachers. So your impact on students has grown. When I became a teacher, I felt like the focus on literacy was something that I didn’t see when I was in school. Learning about science, science and literacy, I think kind of extended to maybe like vocabulary words.

Rebecca Abbott (04:15):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Eric Cross (04:15):

That’s what it felt like. I learned a bunch of vocabulary words. Especially in biology, there’s like so much jargon I feel like you only say in biology. And we would get tests on them, and then we would go do the science kind of separately. And so can you talk more about the focus of on curriculum and research with literacy? Like you said, you said, in the service of science. Like this fuse-together that you have.

Rebecca Abbott (04:38):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that was the aim of the project. And the approach that the project and the program takes is figuring out where are those natural synergies, or the natural overlaps, of literacy and science. And it turns out that there are a million of them. That there’s just a wealth of opportunities within science to do reading and writing and listening and speaking. And it turns out that in fact, half of actual working scientists’ time is spent in the service of reading, writing, communicating with other scientists, making sense through their dialogue with their colleagues, and communicating their findings. So it followed that this most recent set of NGSS, the Next Generation Science Standards, incorporated that throughout. So the difference from between when we were going to school and what teachers are learning now and how kids are being taught, is that they infuse these literacy-rich practices throughout, NGSS. And it makes sense because it’s an authentic way that scientists do science. So we want kids to have those same opportunities.

Eric Cross (05:40):

I don’t know if this is…selfishly, but a science teacher, I feel like I would love to work with my team—and my team has been up for this, but it’s just been kind of challenging lately—to do interdisciplinary work, or trans-disciplinary work, where my science would be the context that they would learn math and English through in their classes. Is that something that you’ve seen have benefit? Or that something that teachers do? ‘Cause sometimes when I see them talk about or read certain books or things like that, I’m like, “Oh, we’ll talk about what I’m talking about!” My students are doing labs that carry over. It seems to be something that helps students, when you kind of cross it across disciplines.

Rebecca Abbott (06:15):

Absolutely. And I think when we think about it in those terms, in terms of just supporting students across disciplines, we can really look to those types of practices. NGSS calls them practices; the math Common Core calls them practices. And then the ELA standards don’t actually have practices, but there are researchers who have come up with, well, if they could distill the practices from the ELA standards, what are they? And if you just Google “Venn diagram practices,” you’ll see that there are overlaps. And there are convergences. And focusing on those convergences is a great way to support students across disciplines. It’s just interesting, ’cause the way we’re taught as teachers in our teacher education programs, the way that especially middle school and up is set up, is that we have these siloed programs. But kids don’t think in silos: Kids think across content areas. So practices is a great way to start to work and see where you can find the overlaps and the convergences across all those subject areas.

Eric Cross (07:14):

So we have this Venn diagram. We have this overlap of practices. What are some ways that we can incorporate these best practices? So if I’m a new teacher and I’m driving, listening to this, what are some things that teachers could do to start incorporating best practices?

Rebecca Abbott (07:30):

Well, if we think about literacy across subject areas, some clear winners emerge. So we think about reading across subject areas. And we can think about, “Well, how do I read as a student or as a person to gather information about the world around me?” And the interesting thing is that you do that slightly different in math. You do that slightly different in science. And you might do it slightly different when you’re reading a novel. So learning a little bit about those specific disciplinary ways of reading might be important. But regardless, you want to be reading closely. You wanna be reading actively. I think many of us have the experience—either our own reading or <laugh> when you’re teaching kids—that you just sort of gloss through something that you’re reading and you get to the end of a paragraph and realize you don’t know what you just read. And so helping kids, being explicit about, “Well, when you’re reading, you read actively. You come up with questions you wanna know about. You plan to ask someone else about the things that you’re confused about. And so by reading actively and then having a discussion with someone afterwards, you’re making sense of the article.” And that’s a middle school routine. But we can have a lot of parallels in elementary school, where either the teacher is reading out loud to the students and asking questions as they go, or the kids are reading in partners and talking to each other about the text and the pictures. We don’t just assume kids know how to pick up a text and engage with it or get the information they need from it. So being an active reader, or reading closely, is one strategy that teachers can take away in that convergence area.

Eric Cross (09:03):

With like elementary school teachers especially, who are teaching kind of all content areas and with a limited amount of time, and now with a limited amount of teachers in the classroom, how do we address those aspects of reading and instruction in a shorter period of time? Like, how can they develop those skills or fit them in? Or another way of looking at it is if we were to maybe focus on a couple key areas or critical areas that a teacher can go and do tomorrow, that would help build these literacy skills, what could they do?

Rebecca Abbott (09:39):

<laugh> I would say if they had limited time, you might be looking for efficiencies. And so one efficiency is that the science is a super-motivating context. And I think you mentioned that a few minutes ago. You want just to take this context and teach everything within it. Like, start from science and teach from there, right? So if you find that there’s subjects that the kids are excited about, you know—like, you know, second graders got excited about animals or, you know, kindergartners got excited about pinball, you know, these are the contexts that our science curriculum can offer us. And then they can investigate these concepts and these ideas, and again, the reading and the writing and the talking in service of science not only gives them those skills and the practice engaging with language and constructing explanations, and you can use all those to teach the language and literacy in this really motivating context. So it’s not like you have to teach language arts or literacy in a separate block and then put all that language arts and literacy away. and now it’s time for science. But really you can think about them merging together.

Eric Cross (10:51):

So it sounds very kind of cyclical, or very fluid, as opposed to, like you said before, siloed. Which is how many classrooms and education kind of is: Like, this is science; this is math; this is history; this is English. But life is not like that. And careers aren’t like that. They cross back and forth and—

Rebecca Abbott (11:10):

And elementary teachers in particular have a little more flexibility in their school day because they have the students all day. They may be beholden to a particular curriculum, so they don’t feel like they have the…I don’t know, the permission <laugh> to be able to do that. ‘Cause they’re supposed to teach language arts in a certain time with a certain curriculum. Or they’re supposed to teach a certain number of minutes of another subject area. So the challenge really is on a systems level. There are things that elementary teachers can do in order to capitalize on where those overlaps are. But it also might be speaking up and talking to administrators or talking with one another about what they can do, system-wide, to help break down some of those silos.

Eric Cross (11:56):

As I’m listening, I’m thinking about the word “literacy.” And I feel like it’s one of those words that you can ask 10 people and they can say 10 different things about what literacy is. And I feel like we need to talk; we need to address that <laugh>. When….what is literacy? As simple as it sounds, again, I feel like you can…. Literacy, I feel like in my science classroom when I was a kid, was vocabulary words. And it was vocabulary words in the beginning, and memorize, and then answer them, all 20 of them, on this little mini piece of paper. And, and that was it. But hearing you talk about it, literacy is so much more dynamic than that, it sounds like. Can you kind of maybe unpack that? What does literacy actually mean to a literacy leader?

Rebecca Abbott (12:46):

Sure. I mean, in its simplest form, we could say literacy is listening, reading, writing and speaking. Some might include visualizing in there. So you can read images and pictures as well. But the focus of the literacy instruction in science really is on, increasing students’ ease of reading informational texts, engaging in science discussions, writing scientific explanations and arguments. So all of those components, as mentioned, are very natural ways that scientists do their work already. So those are the kinds of literacy that we wanna embed in a science classroom. And as you mentioned, in a math classroom, or across the disciplines.

Eric Cross (13:27):

So we’re thinking about literacy and it’s not just reading and being able to memorize definitions and terms. There’s these talks about front-loading vocabulary, and I don’t know if the term “back-loading” is a thing, but I feel like adding it on later is…

Rebecca Abbott (13:40):

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Cross (13:42):

…is there. Is there a best practice, in your research, for vocab in science? And if you could, would you mind sharing it?

Rebecca Abbott (13:48):

Sure. And you’re gonna use this tomorrow, right? <laugh>?

Eric Cross (13:52):

I’m gonna use it tomorrow.

Rebecca Abbott (13:55):

Yeah, so vocabulary is a really good one. And again, coming from the literacy and language arts background, there was a lot of emphasis on front-loading. So, not to confuse folks, but if you’re teaching sort of a piece of literature, language, it is helpful to preview some vocabulary before jumping into some dense piece of text or poetry. So you can make your way through something that you’re trying to make sense of with reading. Now, with science, the methodology that we’ve relied on that’s based on a lot of, of research that we’ve engaged in ourselves and that we’ve relied on, has more to do with starting with students’ own language or starting with students’ own concepts. Because this is the philosophy and the understanding, that kids come to us with a wealth of world understanding and knowledge. You know, two-year-olds understand what happens when a ball drops. Kindergarteners understand what happens when you kick a ball across the field.They don’t need to be able to say, “I exerted a force on this ball!” but the word exert is something we want them to get to eventually. Even if they use their own words or try to explain something by showing you, by drawing, by, saying it in another language: They’re starting to formulate a concept. So the approach in science is to have lots of experiences to investigate, to make sense of phenomena that are happening around you, and eventually to start using the words that help you explain that idea. And ultimately to learn the vocabulary word, the sort of academic word, that might latch on to the concept that you’re exploring. So, it’s a concept first and the word later. Which is different from how I learned in language arts, how we would do that.

Eric Cross (15:48):

That’s a huge change. Like, you’re accessing this prior knowledge and then attaching on this term later. And I know for some students the terms can be a huge hurdle when they get the concept, but because the term is, you know, maybe so abstract or just not connected directly to anything obvious that they can latch onto, that can actually be the barrier. And I know sometimes for teachers, we can sometimes think that we’re not able to really assess what a student’s true understanding is, because the language is getting in the way. And so being able to, like you said, attach it to an existing concept makes a lot of sense. I was in this learning experience for teachers and we were able to label different parts of a flower whatever we wanted. And I called parts of it “the fuzzy Cheeto,” and I got to use that the entire time. And then in the end, we actually used the scientific terms. But we were able to explore the concept for a long period of time, and then later we added the words. And that was a really neat experience for us. I had never taught that way, prior, with my students, but when I did it with my students, they had a lot of fun, ’cause they came up with silly names for different things.

Rebecca Abbott (17:04):

Yeah, that’s a great way to illustrate that concept.

Eric Cross (17:07):

So when you’re training teachers—what does the data say about effective ways to equip teachers with these skills? I know, you know, we have professional learning. We have professional development. And your title is professional learning lead. And when you Google the term, the two, professional learning versus professional development, professional learning kind of wins out. It’s, like, this holistic, interactive thing. Versus, you know, a PD can sometimes even connotate things that are not always the most positive in teacher’s minds, depending on what their experience with PD is. So how do you go about equipping teachers with these skills, as you’re traveling, or now Zooming, around the country?

Rebecca Abbott (17:50):

Sure. Yeah, that’s a great question. And I had to recall for myself, “Why did we make the shift from professional development to professional learning?” Because as we just mentioned a moment ago, these words are concepts. So what is the concept behind those two terms? And you’re right, professional development more connotes something that’s done to someone. Like, I’m gonna give you some professional development, you’re gonna take it! And that connotes a little bit of training. The professional learning is really the goal, where we’re providing teachers and educators with a learning trajectory, where, like we would with students, we know they’re coming in with prior knowledge and are have goals that they want to work towards. And there’s a progression or a series of activities they can engage in so they can grow along that trajectory. So when we’re first working with teachers, you know, just because of the way school systems are set up, often you only get a single day or a single introduction. So one thing where you rely on is that the program materials themselves, the instructional materials that we develop, are hopefully also educative and also part of the professional learning. So if I do go and work with teachers for a morning, I try to remind them that their learning is just beginning. That they’re gonna learn through doing. They’re gonna learn through teaching. They’re gonna learn through their collaboration with one another, planning their lessons, learning from their students, et cetera. And that this is a long-term process ‘Cause learning new materials, learning something like NGSS, that’s years and years, as you know, to master or to get good at. And the professional learning never stops.

Eric Cross (19:28):

It never stops. And yes, amen to to the years of learning NGSS and getting it. Getting it to the point where you’re like, “OK, I think I got this.” Or “I think we’re doing it.” We realized a huge shift from how science was taught when we were in school, versus how science is taught now. And it’s easy to default back into how you learned, versus, this new, you know, iterative way of going through how we approach science.

Rebecca Abbott (20:03):

Absolutely.

Eric Cross (20:03):

I wanted to bring up, how should we see our pedagogy? How should we see things in these recent challenges, since we’re not out of it yet? I mean, I’m teaching at the university and they delayed us for two months, or two weeks, went back to virtual instead of in person, when this new semester starts. So how should we see our teaching? How should we see our expectations? When you think of…when you hear learning loss, what lens and what filters do you see that through?

Rebecca Abbott (20:30):

Yeah, that’s, it’s a tough one. And, you know, I keep wanting to refer to the pandemic or the school disruptions in the past and it’s absolutely not the case. That it’s ongoing. That the reality is that some are still in remote learning, or just absent from school, or they’re in schools where there’s a series of substitute teachers, or they’re in giant classrooms because there are no substitute teachers. So, you know, undoubtedly there has been a lack of the same high-quality instruction that there had been before the pandemic hit. And so during all these school disruptions, one thing I like to keep in mind is that students did learn a lot. They have learned a lot about being independent. They’ve learned a ton about being flexible. They’ve learned about their communities, their families. They spent more time at home…about technology, potentially. I think a lot of teachers learned a lot about technology during this time.

Eric Cross (21:19):

<Laugh> Yeah.

Rebecca Abbott (21:20):

So with all of that that we can rely on, you know, we can build from there. So the, the way I like to see it is to think about, “Now we’re in this moment.” And a lot of policy institutes and education organizations are talking about, “How can we accelerate learning from here on out?” And that kind of gets us in the mindset that we have a lot we’re building from, but we need to, you know, push it forward and speed it up, and make sure that we’re working towards this grade-level learning content. And not moving backwards. Because poor instruction that remediates never really worked for the kids that were behind in the first place. And so giving them the remediation solution is not gonna help them move forward. So accelerating learning, or addressing unfinished learning, or ways that we see that as…just the phrasing of it even sort of connotes the moving forward,

Eric Cross (22:13):

Even how we frame it and how we view it, I think, in the way that you just described it, it’s very much honoring the experiences of our students. Which also connects to something you said earlier, about accessing prior knowledge. How you just framed it is kinda a much more energizing, and, I think, empowering way for students to…when I honor your experiences and recognize what you’ve learned and leverage that, that’s gonna give a teacher and a student and a family much more positive momentum towards continuing learning. Versus if I’m in debt and I have to pay off bills. Like, “You lost learning! You’re two grade levels behind! Oh, you gotta read 80 books to catch up to a 12-year-old or a seven-year-old…!” You know, that doesn’t make us energized. But when we look at it like you just said…and I was thinking about this, “What are all the things that you learned that you wouldn’t have learned if you were just in school this entire time?” And like, let’s unpack that. This is like formulating a lesson right now, as I’m thinking about this. <Laugh> ‘Cause you’re accessing all this prior knowledge and you’re honoring this student’s experience. So I love the way that you described that. Because, again, we’re empowering students and we’re empowering their experiences by honoring them. So I think that’s really neat.

Rebecca Abbott (23:28):

Yeah. And the other recommendations for accelerating learning for teachers is really to focus on this grade level. I think there’s this tendency—like in science, there’s often—I’ve heard teachers say things like, “They just didn’t get that content about stars in fifth grade!” Well, some things like that are OK if there’s discrete pieces of learning; we don’t need to go back and backfill that. The recommendation is to really move ahead with this year’s learning. Because again, as you were saying earlier, there’s only so much time, and it feels like now there’s more things to stuff into a school year. So to sort of relieve some of that <laugh> stress on yourselves as teachers and to relieve some of the pressure on kids moving forward with this year, this grade-level standards is the recommendation. But being able to monitor student progress. They may still have difficulty or struggle with that concept if they didn’t get it the year before. But if you know that, and you can help them just in that moment to to move through it, then you can move forward.

Eric Cross (24:27):

Is there, is there data and research on this? Like looking at this? And if anybody would have it, I know you all would. As far as what’s driving you.

Rebecca Abbott (24:35):

There is research and recommendations from a variety of organizations. And I do have a list, actually, that we have called Accelerating Learning References and Resources that I can share with your listeners. And those are from a variety of places like the Council of Great City Schools and California Collaborative for Educational Excellence. And what they’re relying on is past ideas about —again—the failure of remediation. That students who don’t learn well from rote learning or remediating by filling in gaps and discrete pieces of information, they’re not gonna learn that stuff the second time. Or when they never got it. So, really, the recommendations to accelerate learning, are to teach in this more holistic way. Where you’re attending to the students social-emotional needs, attending to what motivates them, what they get excited about learning, involving their families, where academic subjects aren’t mutually—the academic subjects aren’t to the exclusion of making sure students’ voices and their excitement and their engagement are honored.

Eric Cross (25:46):

I wanted to shift…because it brought up another idea about those of us who are teaching emerging bilingual or trilingual, multilingual students. With literacy, this is an area that in many of our classrooms, we serve a variety of cultures and languages. And not only that, but also differentiating lexile levels. And I know in my classroom, I have some students that, that read—I teach seventh grade, so I have students that read at a very low elementary level, but I also have some students that read the college level. And for teachers who are listening like that, and they’re like, “That’s my classroom! I have, I have the whole range! For I’m teaching multilingual students.” What are some some tips or strategies or methods that they could implement into their classroom to best support the, the populations that they’re serving?

Rebecca Abbott (26:39):

Yeah, great question. And yeah, I think anyone who’s taught before understands that wide variety of reading ability, of writing ability, of language proficiency, that a single classroom can have. But in reading, for example, in the science context in particular, one caution we have when talking about reading—and particularly when you mentioned lexile levels—is that science text often has rich vocabulary. And the vocabulary connotes important concepts. And, and so in our program, for example, we’ve authored articles or books that are at grade level, and they’re considered complex text at that grade level. And we want…and complex being a good thing! We want them to be complex and rich and full of science ideas to support the kind of learning that we want kids to do, that’s developmentally appropriate for that age. And so instead of giving students leveled text or, you know, an easier version of that article, what we try to do is provide all kinds of scaffolds and supports for accessing that text. Whether that’s having them listen to it read aloud by a teacher or electronically, whether that’s breaking it down into parts, or whether that’s having them read it multiple times, or supporting with a vocabulary activity, et cetera. Those are all ways that we can support kids in making sure they access the text and access the concepts in the text. And then—but also, the same is true I think for writing. Like, you’re gonna have students who have difficulty or aren’t able to express their thoughts in writing, if it’s something complex, like an explanation or an argument. And so we would never have kids just sit down and say, “OK, explain your thinking.” But we don’t just wait till the end of a sequence: “Now come up with an argument!” We have lots of times throughout a unit, throughout the lessons, that students practice argumentation, either out loud with one another, with sorting evidence on their table, in cards, et cetera. So when it does come time to do create an argument, they have the skills behind them to be able to do that. Having those everyday experiences, having a build, having skills and strategies built up little by little, so that when they get there, they can’t do it.

Eric Cross (28:56):

A lot of my students will choose to go to the audio, even though with their reading level, they can totally read it and they’re fine. But they like doing the text-to-speech. In my head, as a teacher, I think, “OK, well, they’re accessing the articles, but is that a bad thing? To allow students to have access to that? Or should we be saying, ‘Hey, no, you’re gonna read it and that’s what you need to do. You can’t use the audio.’”

Rebecca Abbott (29:29):

Yeah, it’s a great question. And I have the same reaction. Like, I listen to audiobooks. I’m like, “Well, no. I actually read that. You know, I know the concepts now. I’ve listened to the whole thing.” But I would say, you know, you wanna give students—you don’t wanna deny students an opportunity to have the skill that they can read an article. ‘Cause they may be in a situation where they do need to read. So, you know, withholding the opportunity to be a better reader, on paper, I wouldn’t recommend that. But at the same time, why not do both? I mean, I know there’s time constraints, is the “why not do both.” <Laugh> But if students are—if you’re noticing, when you see a student over time, if you’re noticing they’re only listening to the articles, I think a great scaffold is listen to it and then read it.

Eric Cross (30:10):

Right. So doing both…I know for them, sometimes, I would see them listening to it, and then they’re looking off in the classroom and looking around, and I would tell ’em, I say, “Hey, this isn’t Spotify. You can use the text. You can use the audio. But your eyes have to be looking at the words. Because that’s gonna help you understand. And when you hear how the words are said, your eyes are gonna recognize it.” And usually that works, when I explain it that way.

Rebecca Abbott (30:32):

Yeah. Or it could be that they listen to it in class, and then they take it home and read it for homework. Or you have ’em read it the next day. ‘Cause they could do it in sequence, and so they’re still accessing the text. And they don’t have to do it every time. But maybe every so often, on something easier, or shorter. And as you know your students over the course of the year, you know who to sort of target and make those recommendations to.

Eric Cross (30:56):

The quality of literacy or parsing out information that is reliable…I feel like now, with the information—teaching students how to find reliable information to make judgments has been more in vogue and a big issue ever than than it ever has been in the past. Is there, are there…and I haven’t seen a ton of strategies on how to do that yet. I hear talk about it, but I haven’t… we do that. Is that something that’s kind of in your wheelhouse too? Of “OK, we’re developing these skills, but then how do we know that the thing that they’re reading is something that’s that’s a reliable text or media source?” Things like that.

Rebecca Abbott (31:39):

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that we want to, you know, arm students to be able to not just do this because they’re doing it in class with the controlled set of materials, but take these practices and be able to do them. And so, great, you want kids to be curious and Googling things and wondering and finding articles. And along with that comes that that media-literacy piece. Where they need to be savvy about their sources. Is it peer reviewed? Where does it come from? Et cetera. And science in particular. ‘Cause there’s so much information out there. Again, we wanna encourage students to personalize their learning and make choices about what they wanna study and what they wanna investigate. And with that comes the independence and the need to be savvy about such things.

Eric Cross (32:23):

There was this old website, it’s, I think it’s still out…it was about the tree octopus. I think that’s what it’s called?

Rebecca Abbott (32:28):

OK…? <Laugh>

Eric Cross (32:29):

Do you know about this? The Tree Octopus? So it’s a…let’s see, I’ll just look this up. Tree Octopus. It’s a fake website. “Save the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus.” And it’s a whole website dedicated to this tree octopus. And it’s completely fictional, but it looks like a legitimate site.

Rebecca Abbott (32:48):

Sure.

Eric Cross (32:48):

It looks like it could be real <laugh>. And this website has been out for, I don’t know how long. I feel like it’s, like, Netscape days. Because it’s so old.

Rebecca Abbott (32:54):

Oh my gosh.

Eric Cross (32:55):

You just look at how it’s set up. But I feel like sites like this were great opportunities. And my students, once I showed it to ’em, they’re like, ‘That’s fake.” Because they went and Googled it and <laugh> found out. But sites like this were great ways to introduce them to the topic of sites that were reliable or how to have cautious skepticism about the things that you’re reading. You know, things like that. It was—and it was a lot of fun. And when you talked about argumentation…the term, even, “argumentation” for a lot of students connotes something really negative. Because a lot of times the arguments that they’ve seen…they hear “argument,” it’s adults arguing. So I tell my students that I take the opposite of whatever position you’re gonna have in the class. And so I end up defending some really ridiculous positions, but when they use evidence, then I start losing in the argument. And so it was a fun way for us to go back and forth, and for it to be a safe environment, because they know Mr. Cross is just gonna take the opposite—but he’s never gonna tell them what he thinks. So I’m never gonna get my real position on something. I’m just gonna take the opposite of whatever you argue.

Rebecca Abbott (34:04):

Oh, that’s a great strategy. Yeah.

Eric Cross (34:05):

It was a lot of fun. But they didn’t like it when I made an argument about—we were talking about ecosystems and how hunters are controlling the population of deer. I had to take an argument to say that they were the most empathetic towards animals. And with 12-year-olds, if you wanna get ’em upset, that’s a great way to do it. But I said, “Hey, look, if the population gets outta control eventually all these animals are gonna go extinct.” And frustrated! They’re like, “I don’t want you to be right, but!”

Rebecca Abbott (34:38):

But yeah, that’s a good point, to distinguish the idea of, yeah, when they hear “argument,” they might think about people arguing. And that’s, you know, not what we’re doing with scientific argumentation. And so, yeah. Calling that scientific argumentation, where, you know, you’re taking your claim; you’re finding evidence that’s gonna back up your claim; and then you have to think of your reasoning: Why does your evidence support that claim? And that’s one of the hardest pieces for kids to articulate or to write. So if kids have never had an experience getting into scientific argumentation until they’re 12 years old, there’s a lot of steps that they have to take to get there. But I think that the scaffolds, like you said, to make it where they have to use that evidence to counter an argument, I think those are exactly the kinds of experiences we want them to have. So they understand what it’s for.

Eric Cross (35:31):

And the English teachers I’ve talked to mentioned CER, Claim, Evidence, Reasoning. We found that that skill is one of the easiest ones for us to transfer back and forth across our classrooms. And so one of the things we had done, we had had students write a CER paragraph about genetic modification. And then the English team took it and they looked at it through a different lens. But the students liked the fact that they could have one assignment that went back and forth between teachers. They’re not doing double the work, but then they’re getting feedback from two different lenses. It was a great experience for both of us. There were some logistical challenges with syncing up, as far as pacing and things like that. We found that they were talking about science in English. That was a great way. And I was thinking, as an elementary school teacher, when we’re doing literacy activities, using—like you said earlier—those engaging topics, you know, scientific topics, there’s so many of them. I feel like every class I teach, students always wanna ask me if something’s gonna explode. <Laugh> “Is the thing gonna explode?” Like, we teach biology. Like, right now. Maybe a whale that’s washed up on the beach. But like, for the most part, we’re not gonna make things blow up. But…

Rebecca Abbott (36:34):

You know, that’s just, it’s heartwarming to hear because that’s really why we do this work, is we want kids to improve overall. It’s not like we just need them to improve in our subject area.

Eric Cross (36:45):

Right. And the movement of breaking down the silos, it almost feels like it’s gonna happen faster if we kind of do it grassroots. When we reach out across content areas, grade levels, teams, things like that. But if we start teaming up and working alongside other content areas, I think our students will benefit a lot. And they, they really enjoy it. Plus it’s fun. Like, you get extra teammates to look at things through a certain lens. And I find myself growing as even as a writer, as I’m looking through my students’ work, as they’re developing writers too. What are some things that we’re getting right, right now, as you look at it from kind of this 30,000-foot view? You’re looking at education; you’ve been in the game for a while; you know what it’s like to be in the classroom; you know what it’s like to train teachers; you know what it’s like to train people who teach teachers. What do you think, what do you think we’re getting right? And then the follow-up question is gonna be, what are our areas for growth? <Laugh> That’s gonna be the follow-up. But what do we—let’s start off with the thumbs-up. What do you think we’re doing well, or we’ve improved in?

Rebecca Abbott (37:54):

Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say what we’re doing well in…more systems are going towards adopting high-quality instructional materials. When I was a teacher, when I worked in schools, often we were making up lessons and we would spend our evenings and our weekends writing lessons. And they weren’t nearly as coherent or as robust or met the standards in the same way that a group of a hundred-plus people <laugh> at the Lawrence Hall of Science could do over a couple of years period of time. Curriculum developers develop curriculum, and teachers should be able to practice their craft teaching. They can adapt instructional materials; they can adjust the instructional materials for the kids in front of them. But they shouldn’t be designing it and developing it in the moment. There’s just not time. And it’s not gonna be of the same consistency and quality across the schools.

Eric Cross (38:51):

So you—and you said something that I really keyed on and I felt guilty for doing this, and I feel like you just gave me permission for this, <laugh> is you said, you said, “Adapt and adjust.” And I found myself in the same position where every year, I was writing my curriculum, 80% I was changing it. Not based on any data. Just because I just felt like I should. But then that was teaching all day and then at night and summers rewriting everything. And you said, “Adapt and adjust.” And that makes me feel like, when you’re using Amplify, it’s not prescriptive. It is something you can kind of kind of remix. Was it designed that way?

Rebecca Abbott (39:32):

It was designed as a basis. As, a lever, let’s say. Like, you can take this lever and you can do what you need with it. You know, a lot of teachers hear from their administrators that they’re supposed to teach with fidelity. Teach with fidelity to the program. And we say more that we want you to teach with integrity. Integrity to the program’s goals. Understand the coherent flow of instruction. And you have your students in front of you. You need to adapt based on what their needs are. And you need to make adjustments if their interests diverge. So you want to understand the core flow and trajectory and learning progression of a particular sequence. But if you do need to make adjustments to the timing or to the types of activities or to the length of activities, that’s something teachers are always going to be doing. But it gives you a baseline from which to work, instead of starting from scratch.

Eric Cross (40:28):

So you hear that, teachers?

Rebecca Abbott (40:30):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (40:30):

We have freedom! You can keep those lessons, you know, our favorite lessons that we had. That lab; that activity that you did. We can keep that! Keep that in there, and insert it in different places. <whispers> That’s what I do anyways. <normal voice> But now we’ve just said it publicly. You can do that. We give ourselves permission. And then you said, “Teach with integrity for the goals.” And so I just wrote that down. That was really good.

Rebecca Abbott (40:52):

Good!

Eric Cross (40:52):

1. And the next one, we’re gonna limit to to one thing. If you had to focus on an area for growth…we’re looking at education as a whole, but if you wanted to target it in literacy, or whatever pops into your mind. An area of growth. Something we could improve on. What kind of pops into your head?

Rebecca Abbott (41:11):

Um, <laugh>, the first thing that pops into my head is more support for teachers and specifically pay <laugh>. I think it’s just….

Eric Cross (41:19):

All right!

Rebecca Abbott (41:20):

But that’s kind of out of the scope of what we’re talking about right now. I just think…

Eric Cross (41:23):

Well, that’s good too.

Rebecca Abbott (41:25):

…the professionalism, the professionalism of teaching is far beyond where it needs to be. If teachers are professionals, they work so hard, they get so much training and are so passionate about their jobs, and they just don’t have the status in the professional world that they deserve <laugh>. But that is maybe my own soapbox. I would say overall, the equity in our systems. I think that there is just an unfortunate reality right now where there are schools and district who have the time and the resources to have the best of the best for all of their students, and others that do not. So just resourcing schools with the appropriate materials, and teaching staff, and time to be able to learn and todo the best for their kids.

Eric Cross (42:11):

I think that resonates with probably everybody who’s listening to this. So thank you for sharing that. OK. Last question.

Rebecca Abbott (42:18):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (42:19):

Is there an experience or a teacher or something that you, you went through as you were going through school that really stands out to you? And if so, what is that experience or who was that person?

Rebecca Abbott (42:27):

I think it was in high school, where we had teachers—and it wasn’t just one, it was a few of them who got together. I mean, I think one powerful thing is I realized these teachers collaborated, <laugh> and came up with a system for their…we must have been juniors. ‘Cause I remember we could drive. So in my junior year of high school, they encouraged us to explore our communities. So I think just them encouraging us to make connections to the world, to our own lives, et cetera. That was powerful.

Eric Cross (42:59):

What a simple thing. Like a teacher encourages you to go out and explore. And you did that. You went out and just explored your community

Rebecca Abbott (43:07):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Places I, you know, hadn’t done before. ‘Cause as a young person, you’re not given permission to. And so by someone letting you, or giving you permission, or saying it’s a school assignment, that was different.

Eric Cross (43:22):

<laugh>. Yeah. “Hey mom, dad, I gotta—I’m supposed to go out and go check out the circus and the museum and all of those things. You care about my grade, right? You care about school. Hey, I gotta, I gotta go do this.”

Rebecca Abbott (43:33):

Now I have an excuse.

Eric Cross (43:35):

Rebecca. I want to thank you so much. One, professionally, because those active reading guidelines, those literacy supports, that you and your team have created, I’ve actively used over the years, and it’s helped me become a better teacher of literacy. Which, I know through this conversation, and I keep getting reminded, is not just reading, but writing, speaking, argumentation—all of those things are literacy. And going back to my professors when I was in college, we are all teachers of literacy. Even, especially, even science teachers. As we’re doing this. And, yeah, I just wanna thank you for being here, for taking the time, and for putting out great stuff for us in the classroom. And for all the kind things you said about the teachers that are trying to do what’s best on behalf of students. So, yeah. Thank you.

Rebecca Abbott (44:22):

Well, thank you for having me. It was great to talk about this. I can’t take credit for many of those approaches that I wrote, but I know our team will be thrilled to hear how much you value them and how they’re being used to great success in your classroom.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (00:00):

I know there’s other goals in mind, you know, standards and test scores. But at the end of the day, I wanna come back and I want them to come back.

Eric Cross (00:35):

My name’s Eric Cross, host of our science podcast, and I am with Ryan Rudkin, middle-school teacher out here in California just to the north up near Sacramento? El Dorado Hills?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (00:46):

Yeah. 20 miles east of Sacramento.

Eric Cross (00:49):

Nice. And I am down here in San Diego. And so Ryan, to start off, what I wanna do is ask you about your origin story, like a superhero. So how did you become a middle-school science teacher to become part of this elite profession of science folks that get to do awesome things with kids?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (01:08):

I would agree with you that it is definitely an elite profession. I got my credential and I thought I was gonna teach third or fourth grade elementary school. And the second day I got called for a sub job for middle school. And I just thought, “We’ll take it,” you know? And by second period, I knew: This is where I belong. The kids, middle school, students are just a species of their own. And you have to appreciate them. And if you do appreciate them, then you’re in the right spot. And I quickly looked at my coursework and I was able to get authorizations in science, history, and English, and I love science. So I chose science. And the rest is history. It’s been a wild ride and I wouldn’t have changed or asked for anything different. I love it.

Eric Cross (02:02):

I definitely agree with you. So, your history—you’ve been in various middle-school classrooms. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What classrooms have you been in? What disciplines of science have you taught or are currently teaching?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (02:14):

I was hired for seventh grade life science, and then I did that for a few years and then I got moved into eighth physical science, and I was there for 12 years. Love eighth grade science. I love eighth graders. Chemistry and physics are my favorite. There’s just so much opportunity for just awesome labs, great conversations, student discourse, all of that. And then the past three years I’ve been in sixth grade and now we’re integrated. So,a sixth grade integrated science and I also teach social studies and a technology design class.

Eric Cross (02:52):

Oh, nice. What do you do in your technology design class? That sounds cool.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (02:56):

Right now it’s mostly internet media and we use WeVideo, it’s an editing-video program, and we produce and put on our school weekly news bulletin. And then we weave in other projects. We do some interdisciplinary projects. Right now my students are working on a mythology God, Goddess, and Monster project that relates to our social studies curriculum. And we’re learning about Greece. So yeah, we just try to give them added projects and they’re using the WeVideo platform. By sixth grade, they’re coming to us now with wonderful skills with all the tech. I mean, if I need help, I ask them like, “How do you do something on Google Docs?” Or, “How do you do something on Drive?” The kids are definitely tech-savvy.

Eric Cross (03:49):

They must love being the teacher in the classroom. They get to—it kind of switches power roles, where they get to teach the teacher something.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (03:56):

Yes. And especially WeVideo, sometimes we’ve had some hiccups, and the kids show everybody, and that’s part of the design class. They’re trying to solve—we’re teaching them how to solve their own problems. So if there’s any kind of issue with anything with the technology, honestly, I usually tell them, “Go ask a friend,” or we kind of shout out, “Hey, who knows how to troubleshoot this?” And the kids are eager to help each other, which is nice.

Eric Cross (04:21):

And they have this authentic experience where they’re actually doing real problem-solving, as opposed to something that we manufactured. Like, those are real things that we have to deal with in life. And that’s exactly like how we solve it, right? We just go ask people! We look it up, and the ahas are genuine too. Throughout!

Ryan Renee Rudkin (04:36):

Yes, especially thinking on the fly. Especially yesterday, I was in the middle of teaching and my laptop froze, and it’s like, “OK, everybodytake a couple minutes, you know, work on this, this, or that while I switch out laptops!” And so I’m modeling, too, how to solve my own problems. And I think it teaches the kids how to do that too.

Eric Cross (04:59):

I’ve always thought it was interesting that when teachers get to teach in real time, how do we handle stress and frustration when it’s really happening? And I think the tech—at times, failure is the real one where you feel this chill or this sweat that kind of comes over you and you’re trying to present or cast or the video won’t play and things like that. I think I’ve done enough times in my years of teaching where now my students know what to do, or they want to come up and help, and we’re good with it. But I remember in the beginning when those things would kind of glitch or go wrong or the wifi goes down, and you’re like, OK, what do we need now?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (05:33):

I think it’s honestly, after the fact, when I think in the moment, I’m not thinking of feeling stressed, but just afterwards, then I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this has just been a wild day.” But yeah, you just have to kind of go with it. And that’s just the beast of middle school. I just added to the list of why we love it.

Eric Cross (05:53):

You said something about interdisciplinary work, and I wanna kind of ask about that. Because it sounds like you’ve had your hand in several different areas of science and grade levels. Working, doing design courses, working with tech. Are there certain lessons that are your favorites to teach? The ones that you really enjoy, or that no matter what, you’re like, “We need to do this; this is such a rich experience for students”?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (06:17):

Yeah. I definitely try to do lessons or activities along the way. I like to do projects at the end of my units. When I taught physics, we did a project and it was mainly an assessment tool called the Wheeling and Dealing. The kids, they would all get a different car. And then they to sell their car. And so they had to pretend to be a car salesman, and they did that with their knowledge of the physics unit. So everything we did on forces and speed and motion. So I like doing culminating projects like that. And you’re kind of tricking them into assessing them.

Eric Cross (06:57):

When I think about your car salesman project, I’m thinking of a bunch of students, but they’re like on Shark Tank, but they’re just littler versions. And they’re doing these sales pitches, but they’re speaking in scientific terms as they’re trying to do it. Do you record these or do they just exist in the classroom?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (07:12):

No…And that was a long time ago, when I taught eighth grade. I wish I had; I wish I had recorded. That was definitely—it was fun, ’cause the kids, they would get their little piece of paper and they—some of ’em didn’t know what car it was. And so they’re like “A Boo… A Boo-gatti? What’s a Boo-gatti?” And then someone from across the room would be like, “Ooh, I want it! Here, I’ll trade you my Ford Focus!” And <laugh> so they would kind of wheel-and-deal which car they would…and then once they got their choice, then they would do the project.

Eric Cross (07:44):

So they’re really embodying this persona of a car salesman. The wheeling and doing back-and-forth and trying to trade a Bugatti for a Ford Focus. <Laugh>

Ryan Renee Rudkin (07:53):

I know. <Laugh> I like to make my class, my learning environment, enjoyable. You know, I gotta be there; they gotta be there. So I know there’s other goals in mind—you know, standards and test scores—but at the end of the day, I wanna come back, and I want them to come back. And I just have that as a priority.

Eric Cross (08:18):

Well, based on the projects that you’re doing and the way that you approach education with students, I can see why middle-school students would want to come back, even if they had the option not to. Just because of the cool things that you’re doing. Now we’re on this—hopefully, fingers crossed—tail end of COVID in the classroom and schools, and I know it’s impacted all of us differently. Has student engagement changed since COVID and if so, how, and what have you done in these last two years to maybe adjust your approach, to continue that engagement and that richness that you provide for your kids?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (08:57):

I definitely—I think for me, I recognize that when the students are in my classroom, I want them to, I dunno, for lack of a better word, just escape the noise at home. And I know we’ve always had students that are going through divorce situations or their dog died, other things, but I think with COVID, it’s definitely been compounded. And just creating a safe place for the kids to want to be and…it’s hard. We’ve had a lot of students that have been out, absent, for various reasons and on quarantine. And they’re struggling with doing work from home, ’cause their parents are stressed and their parents are dealing with their work issues. And so I think just having grace for the kids and just keeping…I don’t know, I guess like I said, I’ve always had student engagement as top of my list.

Eric Cross (10:06):

It sounds like—the things I hear you say really have to do with who these students are as people.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (10:12):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (10:13):

And then as a second, who they are as students. How do relationships fit into your engagement? ‘Cause I’m hearing this connection that you seem to be making with kids as you’re talking about things that are beyond academics: their home life, how they’re impacted.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (10:28):

Yes.

Eric Cross (10:28):

Is there anything that you do to build these relationships, or to connect with your students, to make them feel wanted or feel connected to the classroom or to you?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (10:37):

Yeah, I do. I do a few things to build those connections. And again, this timeframe in their life is so out of their control, their peer relationships, relationships with their parents. And when they’re in my classroom, I want them to feel loved and appreciated. Something I do it’s called Phone Fridays. And in one of the social media groups, someone posted about it, and I’ve been doing it for over a year now, actually. So on Fridays I call parents and give good news. And so I’ll pick maybe one or two students. And it could be academic reasons. It could be behavior, I’ve seen a slight improvement of behavior. Maybe a role model in the classroom. And my goal is to get everybody every trimester. So everybody gets a phone call by the end of the trimester. And it’s funny ’cause sometimes the parents are a little like “Uh-oh”! When they pick up, they see the caller ID, and their school’s calling. ‘Cause Some kids don’t get good calls. So it’s a really—I would say every single parent that I’ve called, I usually get a follow-up email, either to me or my admin, just saying it’s such a cool idea I do this; thank you so much. And yeah, I just call and give good news and just put ’em on the spot. And usually the kids are a little embarrassed, but you can tell, even though they’re kind of—I think they’re faking it, that they’re embarrassed! ‘Cause You know that they got the Phone Friday, and everybody’s like, “Who’s gonna get the phone Friday?!” And so it’s a very big deal in my class.

Eric Cross (12:07):

What a great way to—I mean, it seems like that hits on so many levels. You’re making these positive calls home. You’re praising publicly, which a lot of times can happen where students can get criticized or redirected publicly and then praised privately, which is a lot of times the reverse what we should be doing. But here you are praising them publicly. And then you’re not only building a relationship with yourself, but you’re also connecting them with their parent or whoever is caring for them, because now when they go home, there’s this, “Hey, your teacher called; you’re doing awesome!” So it’s this kind of triangle that’s forming there. I think that’s super-cool and a great thing for teachers to do.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (12:45):

It takes, you know, the last five minutes of my class. I do it every class. And then I have a system. Like I said, I keep track of all the kids. That way, by the end of the trimester I’ve gotten everybody. Sometimes I let the students, whoever I call first, then I let them pick a peer and I tell them, “OK, we have to have a solid reason. Why are we calling?” And a couple times they’ll have a student, like one of my energized ones, they’ll raise their hand. “How About me? How about me?” And I and the kids kind of laugh a little and I said, “Well, how about this? Let’s make a goal. How about next week we’re gonna make a goal and we’re gonna have a reason to call home.” So just working on the kids that need a little push in the right direction. That’s other reasoning to it. But yeah, it’s fun. I love it.

Eric Cross (13:33):

And you have the community. You have this goal setting. We were talking a little earlier about this transition—so you’re becoming this…your school’s going through the IB process, is that right?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (13:44):

Yes.

Eric Cross (13:44):

And we were talking about the ATL skills and one of them is goal-setting management. You already kind of organically do this in your classroom, which is really neat. I know being an IB teacher, a lot of times I find the things that I’ve already been doing and find, “Oh, this is actually an approach to learning!” or “This is something that has a title!” I just thought it was just being helpful! Ah…So the kids are connected. You have this process where you’re calling parents; it’s working; students are involved, so it’s building this community. Now you’re engaging students. Do you have any favorite student engagement tools that you use in your classroom or when you’re teaching that you feel like you get a lot of bang for your buck? There’s so many things out there these days. And so many approaches, tools, web apps. Do you have any favorites that you use?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (14:40):

No. Nothing comes up top of my mind right now. Mostly just projects, like I said. And being excited. I think having my students see me excited about something…and I’m honest when we’re doing something that’s not quite my favorite, then I’m honest about that too. But just having my—like, we just started thermal energy this week and I told my students, I said, “OK guys, I’m gonna weave in some chemistry in there. I’m gonna weave in some particle motion,” and they’re like, “Oh! That’s when you taught eighth grade, huh!” Cause I talk a lot about when I taught eighth grade before. I don’t know, just showing my own enthusiasm, I think, is a good payoff to me. That’s a bang for your buck. Other things…I try to give ’em cool videos and Mark Grober, he’s definitely a favorite of mine I like to show my students. I like to bring in guest speakers from our community. When I taught eighth grade for physics, I always brought in a local CHP officer and they would bring in the radar and lidar guns and the kids would mark off the parking lot and they would calculate their speed. And then they would verify it with the radar gun. Two years ago when I taught math, I brought in a local landscaper company, a father-and-son outfit, and they showed the kids how they would do bids on jobs. And so, relate it to our chapter on volume and area. So just making that connection with real life. Plus it’s just a nice opportunity, too, for the community to come in. With our design class, put on our newscast. And then one of our units in our sixth grade curriculum is weather. And so I brought in a local weatheruh, chief meteorologist. And he actually talked to the students about his job as a meteorologist and then also being on the news and putting on a newscast. So we got him on our green screen and did a little like Mark Finan, you know, little cameo on our newscast for the week for school. So that was kind of cool.

Eric Cross (16:45):

They must have been excited.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (16:47):

Yeah. They’re pretty starstruck by him. So that was pretty fun.

Eric Cross (16:51):

This person was on their local news? So they would know him?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (16:56):

Yeah, he’s on Channel 3 out of Sacramento. Yeah. KCRA Channel 3, Mark Finan.

Eric Cross (17:00):

So all these guest speakers that you have…how do you reach out to these people? And you sound like you get a lot of success. Do you ever get nos? Like if I’m sitting here listening and that inspires me, but you’re getting celebrities and you see a few people…like, how do you reach out to them? And does everybody say yes? How does it go?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (17:21):

Well, usually at my back-to-school night, I always ask the parents if they have a career or hobby that could lend itself to the curriculum. And so sometimes I’ll hear about—students will talk about, like, “My mom’s a doctor.” And so I’ll reach out to parents and just say, “Hey, you know, your kiddo said, you’re a doctor. May I ask what type?” And most of the time the nos that I’ve received are just because of schedule conflicts. You just have to get creative! Look in your community and see what you have. People want to come and talk to kids. I’ve had some presentations that the person is so intelligent and amazing, but they just, weren’t very kid-friendly. I mean, that happens. Butsomeone knows someone. And just ask! I mean, it doesn’t hurt to ask to have ’em come out, come hang out for the day, with my students. Andone time I had a nurse practitioner she was in the cardiac unit. And so she brought in hearts and led a heart dissection with my students. And we did a station set-up. I’ve had elaborate ones like that, or just a mom come in to tell my students about her job as a nutritionist and relate it to our unit on metabolism. And so just did like a little 15-minute Q&A with the kids on nutrition. And I would just say, look at your community and/or post on social media. I always do that. Post in your school’s PTA groups. So the parents know someone, that’s for sure. Or someone’s retired. One time I had—I think he was a grandfather of one of the kids—he was into rocks. And he had a bunch of meteorites <laugh> and brought in his meteorites.

Eric Cross (19:15):

Bring in your rocks!

Ryan Renee Rudkin (19:15):

I know! Right? And he <laugh> just brought in his meteorite collection! I was like, sure, come on in!

Eric Cross (19:23):

That’s one of the things I love about being a middle-school teacher is that my students have such varied interests and I’ll get the Rock Kid every once in a while and he’ll come in and he’ll have all these rocks and crystals. And a lot of times there’s a grandfather that’s responsible for this inherited geologic treasure that they have.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (19:45):

Yeah, something like that—I mean rocks are not my favorites, but I don’t really tell the kids that. I was like, “Sure, yeah, come on in! We can have a whole-day lesson on rocks!”

Eric Cross (19:55):

<Weakly> “This is great!”

Ryan Renee Rudkin (19:58):

Just utilizing your resources. That’s all it’s about.

Eric Cross (20:02):

Well, I think the back-to-school night was really helpful. That’s something that’s super doable. You have a bunch of parents and you just simply ask, “Who do you know? What do you do?” And then just collecting that and then just asking people to come in. I’ve I’ve been reluctant to do it more often than I’ve wanted to, because I haven’t figured out—and maybe you can help me with this—I have three class periods a day plus other class periods that are not necessarily science. And I don’t want to dominate a person’s schedule. Do they tend to be willing to stay all day? Or do you do, one class gets it, and you record it? Like, how do you balance out the speakers with your school schedule?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (20:39):

Mostly they’ll they’ll just come for the whole day. When I taught eighth grade, I had five classes, so that was easy. That was an all-day thing. And then usually I’ll offer to call lunch, have lunch delivered, or snacks during the day. I mean—

Eric Cross (20:53):

Feeding them is key.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (20:54):

Yeah. Just something kind of nice. Donuts in the morning. I mean, you’d be very surprised. Most people that are in the field or retired, like I said, they’re more than willing to come. And even if they have to wait an hour, while you teach another class that doesn’t pertain to it, then they’ll either leave or come back or just hang out in the back and pretend to be a student during that history class that you have.

Eric Cross (21:20):

It’s my own limiting belief where I feel guilty. I don’t think about it. I need to think about it through the perspective that you do, that these people WANT to talk. I just assume everybody’s so busy. But I do know, the times I’ve had speakers come out, at the end of the day, they’re so energized or they’re so happy or they’re so grateful. ‘Cause They’re like, “This is what it’s like to teach every day?” I’m like, “Yeah, this is what it’s like.”

Ryan Renee Rudkin (21:42):

I think too, a lot of parents…usually being being in the stops at elementary. A Lot of parents don’t get the opportunity to come help out in the classroom, because the middle school kids, you know, it’s not very cool or it’s just not needed like in the elementary classes. So a lot of times, like I said, you’d be surprised. A lot of the parents they’re more than happy to come and hang out. And again, some students, they don’t want their mom or dad to be there, but then I talk it up. I’m like, “Everyone’s gonna be so like impressed that your dad’s a doctor,” or “your mom’s a doctor” or —so then I kind of like downplay it. Like, “Oh, whatever, you’re you’re faking it. It’ll be fine. Don’t be embarrassed.” Leading up to their parent coming into the classroom.

Eric Cross (22:36):

Right. Kind of redirect that energy toward something positive. With guest speakers, projects, pacing, all these awesome things that you have going on, how do you find balance as a teacher, as a person? And what encouragement would you give to new or aspiring teachers? We work in a profession that will take as much as you give it. And you fall asleep at night worrying about other people’s kids and we love it. And teachers by personality can just give and give and give and give. But in order for us to last—I’m thinking about those new teachers who are going into it, who are gonna go in and be there before the sun gets up and stay after the sun gets down. How do you maintain balance, taking care of yourself? You’ve been in education for—how long have you been teaching for?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (23:29):

Sixteen. This is my 16th year.

Eric Cross (23:31):

Enough to be that veteran. So how do you find balance? And then, what encouragement would you give to new or aspiring teachers?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (23:39):

I would say each year, pick one or two things to add on. You can’t add on 10 things, even though you’re gonna find 10 things that are awesome. But just make a little list, put ’em in a file, and every year, just get good at what you do and then just add on one or two things. And reflect on what’s not going well that you can get rid of to make room to add something else. Try to be patient with yourself. And don’t reinvent the wheel. There’s so many things out there that you can borrow and make it your own. Again, I think that’s a time-saver, just leaning on your colleagues. And take lots of notes, because then when you do it again next year, you can refresh yourself and, “Oh yeah, this lesson, wasn’t the best…” What can you add in to make it a little bit better? And yeah, I would say just take on one or two things each year. And then by the time you get to, you know, being a veteran, you can do all these awesome things and it’ll feel natural ’cause you’ve been practicing and just adding in one thing at a time. I coached Science Olympiad a bunch of years ago, and Science Olympiad is so rewarding. It’s just so amazing.

Eric Cross (24:59):

What is Science Olympiad, for the people who’ve never heard of it?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (25:03):

Oh, Science Olympiad is so awesome. Google it. I think it’s just ScienceOlympiad.org. It’s 23 different events across all disciplines of science, different topics. And then you have a team of 15 students. And so your 15 students have to cover the 23 events. So for example, if the student’s on the anatomy team, usually there’s a team of two kids they’re gonna study and learn. They provide all the rules and the guidelines. So the students learn and study whatever the parameters are for that year. And then they take a test. And then they compete against other schools. And there’s build events, the engineering events, they can build things like trebuchets matchbox cars or mousetrap cars. Oh gosh, there’s all kinds of things. There’s like a Rube Goldberg device. It changes every year. And it’s so rewarding to see the kids; they pick their area of science that they love. And sometimes you have to put them on an event that they don’t know, and then they end up loving it. It’s so rewarding as a teacher to see these kids that are just on fire and you know that one day they’re gonna go off and do amazing things. They just commit. They commit to their event. And then they blow it outta the water and they win medals and just the recognition…it’s super, it’s just an amazing program.

Eric Cross (26:42):

One of the competitions that’s really low-tech that I’ve taken into my classroom is Write It, Do It. Have you done that one before?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (26:50):

Oh, yes. Yeah. That’s one. Yep.

Eric Cross (26:52):

It’s such a low-tech, simple one to do, but it teaches such great skills. And for those people who haven’t heard of the Write It, Do It project, you create kinda some abstract art out of random crafts. That’s very difficult to describe. You have pipe cleaners and foam and balls and you know, all these different things. And you make it. And then one person on the team is the writer, and they look at it and they write the procedures, and then their teammate, who’s in a different room and doesn’t get to see it, gets all the materials to build it and the procedures, and they have to rebuild it as closely as possible to the actual original. Even though they don’t get to see the original. So they have to rely on their partner’s ability to write procedures step-by-step. And it was fun to watch my students become teammates in that. And they learned how to communicate in a really fun competition. So I expanded it to do it with all of my students as an activity, just to teach them how write descriptively, to write procedurally, to be technical writers. And it’s, it’s fun! It’s fun to see what they build based on what the students say. <Laugh> And it’s also fun to watch them interact with each other, which for seventh graders, usually it’s conflict. <Laugh> But, like, playful conflict. <Laugh> It’s pretty funny to see what they build.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (28:11):

They’re like, “Man, what are you talking about? That doesn’t mean this; it means this!”

Eric Cross (28:16):

<Laugh> I know part of me feels guilty, but not enough to stop the project. ‘Cause I know for some of ’em, it’s gonna be a really trial by fire being able to practice their skills with writing procedures.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (28:27):

But they’re learning among themselves how to provide more details and to be more thorough with their writing and and their thoughts, put their thoughts onto paper. So yeah, that’s a funny event. Definitely.

Eric Cross (28:41):

Earlier you had mentioned something about connecting your kids with kids and students outside of your classroom. What is it that you do with that? Because I thought that was a really cool project. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (28:57):

Yes, I’ve done—they haven’t had it in a few years, but there’s something called the Pringles Challenge. And if you Google that, I’m sure it’s on the Internet still. So you sign your class up, or your classes, and you get partnered with another school somewhere in the U.S., someplace else. And you decide individually teams, whatever they build. And they make a package to ship a single Pringle chip through the mail. And then you actually mail a Pringle chip through the mail. And then your partner team or partner school, they send their chips to you and then you open everything and then you can take pictures and video. And then there was a whole scoring process where you would score when you receive the chips. And then you input all the data on the website so you can see like how your—and most schools would trade pictures, so that the kids found out how their chip survived. March Mammal Madness is so much fun. Again, Google that.

Eric Cross (30:01):

Did you say March Mammal Madness?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (30:02):

Yes.

Eric Cross (30:03):

Like March Madness, with mammals?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (30:05):

Yes.

Eric Cross (30:05):

1. What is this?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (30:06):

It starts up in March. And you can sign your students up. And that one—it’s not too interactive with other schools, but this is opportunity to get the kids interacting within your site or within your district. Or if you have teacher friends at other schools. There’s like 60…I think it’s 64 animals? And they have this massive bracket that they post. And then you can have the students, I did it—it would be very time-consuming to have the kids individually research each animal. So I just gave one animal per student and so as a class we researched all the animals and then, I think it’s every three days or so, they have these bouts. And it’s all posted on YouTube. Google it. It’s kind of fun.

Eric Cross (30:56):

I’ve already got the website up, ready to go! Folks, everybody who needs to Google this: <articulates carefully> March Mammal Madness. And is it Arizona State University? Is that the main site, ASU?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (31:04):

Yes.

Eric Cross (31:04):

So people, listen to this. Check it out. March Mammal Madness. Look, I’m doing this! I’m already,—you’ve already sold me on this.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (31:14):

It is so much fun, oh my gosh. And then, then the kids—each round, they pick their pick, just like basketball. They do their picks and then you wait for the video. And they do it live on—I think it’s live on Instagram, or the next day on YouTube. And then the kids get all excited. And then usually the kids, whatever animal they got as their research animal, they’re rooting for that one to win, the whole thing.

Eric Cross (31:42):

But we still have time; we still have time to—

Ryan Renee Rudkin (31:45):

You can jump in anytime. Even if it’s already started, you can jump into it. It usually lasts—I believe it’s a two-week from beginning to end. When they do the first round, the wild card, and then all the way to the winner, I believe it’s a two-week process. Oh, maybe three, actually.

Eric Cross (31:59):

I’m already seeing this lead-up to the video being watched in class to see…I’m already thinking about like, “How do I prevent my students from finding the video?” Or like, “When does it go live so that I could be the one to show them so they didn’t go find it early?”

Ryan Renee Rudkin (32:13):

It takes time out of the class, but I believe it’s one of those things where you have to just…it takes 10 minutes out of the class, but it’s important. So when they each round and then the next day, they release the YouTube video. Last year, when it got down to the final round, we were on spring break. And so I told my students, “You guys, let’s do some optional Zooms. And so I had a bunch of kids log on and we all watched the videos together. So that was kind of fun. And then this year, the other thing, the first time I’ve ever done this and it’s going really well is—on social media, I was talking with one of the teachers from Ohio who teaches science and she and I decided we’re gonna do penpals for our students this year. Paper-And-Pen penpals. So that’s been a lot of fun. We just partnered up all the students, her students and my students, and once a month we send and receive the letters to each other. So that’s been a really cool experience.

Eric Cross (33:14):

If you keep doing that, and you need more teachers to be involved, can my students be penpals with your students?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (33:20):

Yeah!

Eric Cross (33:20):

If you open it up to more people? I think that, to get a letter, old-school? Letter in the mail? It would be so exciting.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (33:28):

It is. We mail them, the teacher and I, we just put them all together in one package. But yeah, it’s an actual handwritten letter.

Eric Cross (33:37):

The only letters I feel like I get in the mail now are bills.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (33:42):

Right? Exactly.

Eric Cross (33:42):

But I feel like the digital version of that is if someone calls me, it’s probably bad news. I don’t know if I’m the only one that’s like that, but I’m like, “Who’s calling me? Why aren’t you texting me? What’s going on? Text me first, then call! I need to know who’s going on, and if you’re unknown, you’re going to voicemail.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (34:00):

Exactly. The penpals has been a lot of fun.

Eric Cross (34:03):

You’ve been in education for a while. You’re on the other side of what it’s like to be a student in the classroom. Which can be surreal in itself, when we think about our own experiences as being a student. Is there a teacher or a learning experience that’s had an impact on you while you were a student in school that really stands out to you? And you can interpret the question however you want. But is there someone that’s memorable or an experience that’s memorable that you still carry with you today?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (34:32):

Definitely. My favorite teacher, and we actually still keep in contact on social media is Mrs. Sheldon. She was my fifth and sixth grade teacher. I had the pleasure when I was in elementary school, I was in an all-day contained GATE class—Gifted and Talented Education class. I vividly remember doing so many amazing projects. We built this big, giant—she brought in a big ol’, like, TV box. It was big, big, big. And you could stick like three kids inside there, standing up shoulder-to-shoulder. And we built this big dragon. The head, and we had the whole rest of the class in a big sheet behind us, and we would do a little parade around the school. And she had that thing for years after. They had to repair it every year, and they would do the little parade around school. She did a lot of traveling and when we would go on vacation and then come back, that was always the big deal: “Where did Mrs Sheldon go?” And she had sand from Egypt and pictures from the rainforest. And later when I became a teacher and then I looked her up and we reconnected I did ask her, “Did you go to those places? Or did you, like, lie about it? <Laugh> To get us engaged?

Eric Cross (35:52):

You went for the real questions!

Ryan Renee Rudkin (35:54):

I did. And she laughed and thought that was funny. And she did travel for real. But yeah, she’s an amazing woman. We still keep in contact. And I remember, you know, little things…like we would be out there doing our PE time and she’d have her long skirt, you know, dress on, with her tennies, and she’s out there playing kickball with us. Just a very kindhearted, smart, amazing woman. I’m very fortunate and I’m grateful that we are able to keep in contact. Love social media for that reason. So.

Eric Cross (36:33):

Yeah. And that’s Miss Sheldon?

Ryan Renee Rudkin (36:35):

Mrs. Sheldon. Marlene Sheldon. Yeah.

Eric Cross (36:37):

Shout-Out to Marlene Sheldon influencing the next generation of teachers, with engagement with your world travels and all those different things.

Eric Cross (37:04):

Ryan, thank you so much for one, serving our students. And in the classroom, our middle-school students who need us. I think that middle school especially, elementary school, those years are when students are really starting to decide, “What am I good at?” And the experiences that we create for our students really shape what they believe they can do. These really cool, engaging experiences, these projects that you’re giving them, whether they’re doing these car sales, Shark Tanks, or they’re doing penpals, or you have guest speakers, or they’re designing planets. These are things that students don’t forget. And then when they move on to higher grades, they remember more than anything, I think, how they felt about something. And it sounds like you’re crafting these awesome experiences. And so I just wanna thank you for your time. I know as a teacher it’s very short. And I thank you for being on the podcast with us.

Ryan Renee Rudkin (38:04):

Thank you. This has been a great experience. I just—I really enjoy my students. And I feel very, very grateful and very blessed for finding where I belong.

Aryanna Trejo (00:00):

I would hear teachers saying things like, “Well, I just can’t do coding; this is too hard for me; the time has passed.” And I would ask them, “Would you say that to your student about math or English?” And they would always sheepishly go, “No.” And I’d say, “Well, be as kind to yourself as you would be to your student.”

Eric Cross (00:19):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Aryanna Trejo. Aryanna is a member of the professional learning team at Code.org. Before joining Code.org, Aryanna led computer science professional development for elementary school teachers, and served as an instructional coach for new educators. She also taught fourth and fifth grade in both New York City and in Los Angeles. In this episode, we discuss Aryanna’s journey to Code.org, where she helps educators connect coding to real life, how to use a rubber duck to solve problems, and how coding and computer science principles can be taught to students in areas without access to the internet…or even a computer. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Aryanna Trejo. So I was born and raised here, and I saw that you went to UC San Diego.

Aryanna Trejo (01:11):

I did, I did. I actually just put a deposit down on an apartment in University Heights, ’cause I’m moving back.

Eric Cross (01:16):

You’re coming back?

Aryanna Trejo (01:17):

I’m coming back. Yeah.

Eric Cross (01:19):

So if you need a classroom to visit….

Aryanna Trejo (01:21):

I would love to do more classroom observations!

Eric Cross (01:24):

Are we doing this? Let’s do—we’re making this happen.

Aryanna Trejo (01:26):

We are. Yeah. So I’ll be there. I’m moving there in April. I actually grew up in Orange County too, so I’m like a very diehard SoCal person.

Eric Cross (01:35):

So I feel like I know the answer to, hopefully—Tupac or Biggie? ‘Cause you’re on the East Coast, and you’re on the West Coast.

Aryanna Trejo (01:40):

Yeah. I like Tupac, but I have more Biggie songs committed to memory. Which is not a lot. I have “Juicy” and “Hypnotized” memorized.

Eric Cross (01:53):

All right. So you’re just memorizing, and you have the Biggie songs memorized, but not the Tupac ones.

Aryanna Trejo (01:58):

No, but I do love Tupac songs. You know, it’s like, Biggie has the flow, but Tupac has the lyrics. Nobody’s—they both have something really amazing about them.

Eric Cross (02:06):

You know, I can respect that you broke it down into both of their strengths.

Aryanna Trejo (02:11):

Thanks for buttering me up before this interview. And not….

Eric Cross (02:15):

<laugh> Oh, we already started.

Aryanna Trejo (02:16):

Huh? We already started?

Eric Cross (02:17):

We’re already started. Yeah. We’re already into this.

Aryanna Trejo (02:19):

We’re into it.

Eric Cross (02:21):

You were in the classroom, fourth and fifth grade, and you were doing TFA.

Aryanna Trejo (02:26):

I did. I did Teach For America. I was 2012, New York City Corps. Right after graduation. ‘Cause I graduated UC San Diego in 2012. So graduation was on June 17th, and I touched down at JFK on June 19th.

Eric Cross (02:40):

Even though I wasn’t in TFA, I know a lot of the fellows that are in it. And there’s just some phenomenal teachers in there. How long were you doing elementary school when you were teaching?

Aryanna Trejo (02:49):

Yeah, I taught for—well, I did, three years of teaching fourth grade. Then there happened to be an instructional coach opening in my fourth year. I took that, did some instructional coaching within the same network, and then I moved back to LA and I taught fifth grade for a year.

Eric Cross (03:11):

1. And what was it like now? Did you go to Code.org right after the classroom?

Aryanna Trejo (03:17):

No, I didn’t. No. I transitioned after teaching fifth grade for a year in downtown Los Angeles, in the Pico-Union neighborhood. I ended up getting this email out of the blue from someone who had actually found me through the Teach for America job site. ‘Cause I was hitting the pavement; I was really looking to transition out of the classroom. And she invited me to interview with this company called 9 Dots. And they taught computer science to kids K–6 throughout Los Angeles and Compton. And I was like, “Sure, no problem. Let’s do it.” So I interviewed, I got the job, and yeah, that’s how I transitioned to 9 Dots. And then after almost four years there, I transitioned to Code.org, with the same person. Actually, she moved over to Code.org first, and then she helped me get this job.

Eric Cross (04:07):

Oh, that’s happened a lot—like, that relationship kinda carries over.

Aryanna Trejo (04:11):

Yeah. We’re meant to be coworkers.

Eric Cross (04:13):

Yeah. Are you still? Is she still there? Are you both still together?

Aryanna Trejo (04:17):

Yeah, we’re on the same team and it’s nice. I saw her last night for Happy Hour, with another coworker who’s in LA. So we’re tight. And she’s a wonderful, wonderful mentor to me.

Eric Cross (04:28):

That’s great. Did you have computer-science background, when you were doing elementary school teaching? Did you have—

Aryanna Trejo (04:34):

No. <laugh> Not at all. When I was teaching in New York City, I had like four desktop computers in my classroom, and we rarely used them. Which was such a shame. And then when I moved to Los Angeles and taught fifth grade there, we were a one-to-one school, and the joys of that are just amazing. It was just really wonderful to, you know, get the students used to typing on the computer, using different software to submit their assignments. Getting creative—as creative as you can get—with Google Slides. You know, to show off what they know. And stuff like that. That’s all I had, though. And you know, when I transitioned to 9 Dots I was like, “Sure, why not? Let’s give a shot.” And I learned a lot. It was really interesting, yeah.

Eric Cross (05:26):

And so now at Code.org you are…well, so my journey with Code.org, I’ve been in the classroom for eight years. Still in the classroom as of…an hour ago, I was there. <Laugh> And I use Code.org, and I feel like I’ve checked it periodically, and I feel like it’s evolved over the gaps. And I’ve seen it. It’s become more robust in the things that they offer, over the years I’ve been an educator. Just to kind of…could you give a thumbnail sketch? Like, what is Code.org? Who’s it for? Who’s the target audience? What resources are there?

Aryanna Trejo (06:00):

Yeah. So it’s for everyone. It is a nonprofit that provides curriculum and training and a platform for teachers and students. We provide curriculum for K through 12. It’s completely free. And it comes with lesson plans, slideshows, all that. We focus specifically on underrepresented groups. So we have targeted measures for Black students, for Native American students, for students who identify as female. That’s a huge part of our mission. But we’re really working to expand access to computer science to as many students as we can.

Eric Cross (06:41):

One of the things I’m hearing in your story is you were teaching in Compton; you were in Bronx, New York. One of the reasons why I got into the classroom is because of educators, and the impact they made on me in exposing me to science and technologies I’d never had access to. And that intentionality, that you’re going about it…are there…not just the code, but how you bring that across to different groups…are there strategies, or are there ways to connect this idea of coding to diverse groups and diverse audiences? Or is it kind of, the curriculum applies for everyone? ‘Cause in science, when I’m teaching, I’m always trying to make what I’m doing relevant to the backgrounds of my students.

Aryanna Trejo (07:28):

Sure.

Eric Cross (07:28):

So I’m teaching biology, and I’m trying to make this kind of connection. Sometimes it’s more organic; sometimes it feels kind of forced. Because it’s just not always a nice fit. But it sounds like Code.org is really about inclusion. And in the numbers that I’ve seen for representation, in especially computer science software engineers, the groups that you’re focusing on are not necessarily represented in the professional workforce. At least disproportionately.

Aryanna Trejo (07:54):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s correct.

Eric Cross (07:57):

And so how do you go about being intentional about reaching groups that we don’t see in, you know, the Silicon Valley software engineers? How do you start that? Like, at a young age, do you look for specific schools in specific areas to say, “We are going to bring this to the school. We’re going out to these populations of the cities”? Because we’re just not seeing…you know, on the map, we’re not seeing anybody really doing anything with coding here. Or we’re not seeing the numbers come out of these areas, out of these cities, of students who are going into STEM or going into computer science fields.

Aryanna Trejo (08:41):

Yeah. I don’t necessarily work on the recruitment side of it, is the issue, in my position. But I do work on the professional learning, that is brought out to teachers. And we have a huge focus on equity throughout the workshops that we create from K–12. It’s something we’re really passionate about. We definitely aim to prepare teachers to teach computer science. That’s a huge part of it. Knowing the content, but also thinking through, “What does recruitment look like at your school to make sure that the demographics of your classroom match the demographics of your entire school?” Also, thinking through, “How can we make sure that female students feel included in your classroom? How can we make sure that we are, giving students creativity to think about, or we are setting students up to be creative and think about the problems that are in their community, and how they can use computer science to solve them, or at least work towards them?”

Eric Cross (09:39):

So solving real-world problems and that inclusion aspect…are there things like…you were saying “female or students who identify as female”…are there things that teachers can do to ensure that they’re being more inclusive? Or to recruit, or encourage more female students to take part? One of the things I was thinking of, that I’ve seen, is I’ve seen coding kind of camps.

Aryanna Trejo (10:06):

Sure.

Eric Cross (10:08):

That were specifically for a female audience. And that seemed to help with recruitment. Is that something that you see on your side?

Aryanna Trejo (10:16):

That’s not something that we set up, no. But the curriculum that I work with is CS Principles. And it’s offered as an Advanced Placement course, as well as an AP class. So that’s a curriculum that’s designed for students who are in grades 10 through 12. And so at that point, we can really talk to teachers and ask them what the recruitment strategy is. But in terms of strategies that teachers can use to recruit those students…I mean, I’ve heard over and over from lots of different teachers who identify as female that they didn’t think that computer science was for them, until they saw a role model in that position. And so just being a role model for those students is really wonderful.

Eric Cross (11:00):

And I see it too, with—like, we do “Draw a Scientist” activity, which is like a popular science thing—

Aryanna Trejo (11:05):

Sure, yeah, I’m familiar.

Eric Cross (11:05):

But it’s the same thing, right? Like, it fleshes out. My students don’t draw themselves as scientists. They draw what they perceive, based on what television says. I imagine with computer science, it’s probably really similar, when you think about “What’s a software engineer look like?” Do students tend to draw themselves? Or is it even a mystery? Because I don’t even know what a software engineer looks like.

Aryanna Trejo (11:28):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things we love to do with our professional learning workshops is talk about understanding yourself, your identities, how they show up in the classroom as biases. And, you know, things like stereotype threat. We see that as really important to understand, and think through, and consider, before you step into the classroom. So that you’re not, you know, coddling certain groups of students because you don’t believe that they are able to be successful in computer science. Holding all the students to the same expectations and believing that they can succeed. And computer science, I think a lot of the times people have this conception of it being this utopian, bias-less, technocratic field. When in reality, everything has bias. And people talk about algorithmic bias and facial recognition, but also the people who created computers and computer languages have their own bias that comes through. And I think it’s really important to show students that. So that they can, one, know what they’re working with, and two, make sure that they can create products that reduce that bias.

Eric Cross (12:50):

It’s like…it’s not objective, just because we’re creating software. Like, once it gets to a point of being so sophisticated…I think, like, AI software, right? With facial recognition? And we’re seeing more and more articles come out about, you know, predicting trends based on historical data.

Aryanna Trejo (13:12):

Sure.

Eric Cross (13:13):

But then, the trends and things that they’re seeing tend to target things that have happened in the past. But it also doesn’t take into consideration a lot of other factors that can lead to certain groups or populations being identified. And I’ve seen some articles lately about how your code is really just representation of what you put into it. And like you just said, your bias—if you have that, conscious or unconscious—you’re gonna put that into your code. And the input is gonna be an impact, is gonna impact the output.

Aryanna Trejo (13:44):

Yeah, absolutely. Or even just—and I’m ashamed to say this, ’cause this is an idea that came to me just recently, through an article that I read—but computers themselves have bias. The hardware assumes that you have vision, that you can see the screen, that you are able-bodied, that you can use your hands to work the keyboard, the mouse, et cetera, and that you don’t have to use assistive technology. You know, there are small things like that, where we think that technology, like I said, is this utopian, futuristic science…but there are biases throughout.

Eric Cross (14:19):

You’re absolutely right. I’ve never even—I’ve never even considered that. Even though I do use assistive tech, and figure it out, I’ve never thought from the ground up, the process is built for an able-bodied, sighted, hearing person.

Aryanna Trejo (14:31):

Exactly.

Eric Cross (14:32):

To be able to engage with the hardware. And then these other things, these tertiary things that we kind of add on, so that you can do this, but it’s not designed from the ground up for people who are, you know, different audiences, physically. So I’m glad you brought that up, though. Now I’ve seen—and I haven’t done this—but I know Hour of Code is a big thing. And this is something that’s ongoing. Can you talk a little bit about what Hour of Code is? I know it’s, it’s a big thing for the classroom teachers.

Aryanna Trejo (15:08):

Yeah. So Hour of Code is really exciting, and it’s just blossomed from something small to something tremendous. This year is gonna be the 10th Hour of Code. So what it is, is it happens during CS Education Week in December, during Grace Hopper’s—or to honor Grace Hopper’s birthday. She was a computer scientist and Navy Admiral. And basically the aim of it is to get as many students on the computer doing an hour of code, and demystify what coding is. You know, to do seed-planting. To show teachers that this is something that you can facilitate for your students. And also to show students like, “Hey, computer science is something you can absolutely do. Not just for an hour, but more if you want.” So, yeah. Now it’s worldwide, and it’s really exciting.

Eric Cross (15:58):

That’s awesome. And I think about teachers and I still hear the apologetic—when I’m helping teachers in the classroom with education technology—the self-deprecating “I’m a dinosaur; I’m not good with tech,” which is never true. Like, they’re better than they even realize. And I feel like sometimes there’s still a stigma, too. It’s like <laugh> The Simpsons’ Comic Book Store Guy. The condescending tech support person—

Aryanna Trejo (16:27):

Sure.

Eric Cross (16:28):

—who has that tone. And so I feel like some people have been so negatively impacted by that person. So I know when I’m helping people, I actually try to go full-spectrum the other side. But I’m thinking about teachers’ barrier to entry. Sometimes code is like, “Whoa.” And I don’t teach computer science. Do you see those barriers to entry, or at least the perception of them? And then, what’s the reality for like someone listening, and going, “I’m a fourth grade teacher,” or “I’m a humanities teacher in ninth grade.” What’s the perception that you see, versus reality, with the teachers that you train? Is it much more accessible than we think? Or is there a level of sophistication that you have to have coming into it?

Aryanna Trejo (17:10):

No, not at all. I know computer science, and that says a lot! <Laugh> You know, I know my own corner of computer science. And you know, that’s me being self-deprecating, too. But I think learning computer science has helped me in so many different ways that I wasn’t expecting. I recently took the GRE in hopes of, you know, getting back into grad school. And I think just the way that computer science teaches you to search for bugs in your code, or errors, and kind of tirelessly look at a problem from multiple different angles, I was able to carry that into the math that I was doing. And I noticed just a huge difference in the way that I approached it, and the way that I was open to it. But you asked a great question, in regards to the barriers to technology. In my position at 9 Dots, I was working directly with teachers to lead professional development with them. Sometimes it would be a full day; sometimes it would be an hour after school. And the one thing that I always had in my back pocket that was really useful is that I would hear teachers saying things like, “Well, I just can’t do coding; this is too hard for me; the time has passed.” And I would ask them, “Would you say that to your student about math or English?” And they would always sheepishly go, “No.” And I’d say, “Well, be as kind to yourself as you would be to your student.” You know, it takes some patience and nobody’s gonna get it perfect 100 percent of the time. Have I banged my head against the wall trying to solve one tiny little syntax error in my code? Absolutely! But it feels absolutely phenomenal to fix that. And I was an English major in undergrad, and I had never done computer science before. So it’s something that becomes really satisfying.

Eric Cross (19:07):

Yeah, I imagine. I had someone—a trainer or a presenter—one time bring up the fact that our students rarely get to see us learn in real time.

Aryanna Trejo (19:19):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (19:19):

So we don’t get to ever really model failure. I mean, unless we’re in a classroom situation <laughs> in our failures, with classroom management. Then they see it, they see it! But they don’t get to see us model learning failure. And I don’t mean like failure—and yes, I know, “first attempt is learning,” and “no such thing as failure”—that’s not what I’m talking about. But just when we’re not successful with our code, and then we experience real-time frustration.

Aryanna Trejo (19:42):

Yep.

Eric Cross (19:42):

And they said that is actually a great learning experience for your students to watch you go through productive struggle. And that was really liberating for me. Because now I’m in the classroom, and I’m trying to go through it with my students, and the beautiful thing was, they started helping me. We were all trying to solve the problem. And then we had this authentic problem-solving experience. I think it was like a Scratch program, where we were trying to solve, trying to embed it somewhere, or something. And then, in the background of the class: “Mr. Cross! I got it! I figured it out!” And it was this really neat bonding experience. And I felt that—your ears get red, and you get hot, ’cause you’re not—

Aryanna Trejo (20:19):

Oh yeah.

Eric Cross (20:20):

You don’t know it! And you’re in front of 36 kids! And I said, “OK, I need to tell them how I feel.”

Aryanna Trejo (20:25):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (20:26):

So I said, “Now I feel really frustrated.” Like, “I want to go through this, and here’s my thoughts.” ‘Cause I knew that it would be helpful if they saw and would hear my thoughts. So I just did a quick think-aloud and I said, “In my head, <laugh> I want to just quit,” I said, “But I realize that this is the part where my learning’s happening. So I just want you all to hear what’s going on in my brain.” And now I feel like when I’m doing coding with my students, and it’s just basic coding, I feel much more comfortable, like, not knowing. But I needed someone to release me from that “I have to be the expert in everything” to do it.

Aryanna Trejo (21:06):

And teachers are used to being the experts. Right? And they should be. And coding is just such a different landscape. But I think once you kind of give over to the power of tinkering, I think it’s really gratifying. I love being able to…you can revise a sentence, and then read your paragraph back to yourself in English, and say, “OK, I get it.” But there’s something so gratifying about changing a line of code or a block and then being able to hit play and watch your program come to life, and say, “Hmm, that’s not quite what I wanted. Let’s try something different.”

Eric Cross (21:39):

I love your connection to tinkering. ‘Cause—I had never thought about it—’cause I love tinkering with my hands. But I always think about physical things. But coding is exactly that. It’s tinkering.

Aryanna Trejo (21:47):

It’s exactly that.

Eric Cross (21:47):

That’s exactly what it is.

Aryanna Trejo (21:49):

And a lot of it is, for me, especially when I’m trying something new, it’s guess-and-check. It’s like, “OK, that didn’t work. What if I add a semicolon here? Will it finally work? Or what if I add a ‘for’ loop? Will this get me what I want?” And it’s wonderful because you have that with students as well. Like, you have that record of their thinking, and you can ask them to go step-by-step and tell you, you know, “First, I added this, because I wanted the program to do this,” and so on and so forth. And so you have that record, but you can always get rid of it. Students often wanna get completely get rid of it. That’s something that I’ve noticed a lot as I’ve taught computer science. But, once you can get them to target the specific parts of the program, tinker with that, and continue, that’s a really wonderful learning space. There was also something you said about modeling failure. I love the fact that in computer science you can model failure for your students. You said to your students, “I’m getting frustrated.” I love that, because I never got that in math. Nobody ever showed me what it was like to be frustrated with graphing a parabola. Right? Like, my math teachers were always like, “Doot, doot, doot, here you go, you’re done!” <Laugh> And I would get so frustrated, because it didn’t come that easily to me. And I think there’s two parts to that. So there’s modeling the learning and the thinking and the productive struggle, but also there’s the identity of being a computer scientist and modeling what that looks like. So for me, when I get really frustrated with a program, I walk away. I take five minutes. I take a deep breath. I say, “I’m not gonna think about it in these five minutes.” And I come back to it. And I think once you start teaching computer science, you can facilitate that for students. And there’s so many different strategies that they can pick up. They can pick up rubber ducking, which is where they pick up a rubber duck or a similar object, and they talk to it as if they were a partner and talk through their code. And oftentimes, as you’re rubber ducking, you’re gonna find that error, because you’re explaining it to someone who’s a stand-in for a novice. And rubber ducking is a well-known strategy for computer scientists who make it their career. You know, there’s pair programming. Some students love pair programming; some students hate it. But the students start to build this identity about how they problem-solve. And how they approach failure. And I just love that.

Eric Cross (24:31):

I’m writing this down. Because the rubber-ducking strategy, I love. I just imagine my seventh graders, a bunch of 13-year-olds with, like, rubber on the desk. And not necessarily in coding, but I was thinking in my science class. And they’re working through a challenge, and they’re all looking at this duck, and they’re talking to it. But I just love the the idea of externalizing your thought process and talking through it yourself so that you can hopefully arrive at a conclusion. But it’s such a great practice, and this is something that’s been around for a long time, apparently. So.

Aryanna Trejo (24:59):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a real thing. And you know, you can go low-fi. It doesn’t have to be a rubber duck. You can have students talk to their pencils or their imaginary friends. That’s not the issue; the issue is, you know, talking to somebody.

Eric Cross (25:10):

I know you support teachers. But I just wanted to…I was just curious about your typical day, what that’s like. And then what you do, how you support ’em.

Aryanna Trejo (25:15):

So, at my previous job at 9 Dots, I was in there with the teachers in the classrooms. I was coaching our internal staff who went out to co-teach with teachers. And I loved that. And I had such a great impact on a local scale. But now at Code.org, I have a much broader impact. But I don’t get to interface with—that’s such a tech-y word!—I don’t get to interact with—

Eric Cross (25:42):

You work at Code.org! You get to—

Aryanna Trejo (25:42):

I know! But I’m a teacher at heart, forever, right? That’s my identity that I forged when I was 22 years old. And a typical day looks like opening up my computer, taking a look at my calendar. I often have meetings to talk about, different things that we’re doing to support our facilitators who go out to our teachers and lead their workshops for them. I recently worked on a product that was designed for CS principles, teachers, to onboard to the course if they weren’t able to get into an in-person workshop. And it’s completely self-paced, so it gives teachers an on-ramp into the course. And now I’m working on some in-person workshop agendas. So I feel really wonderful that my work is going out to thousands of teachers. But at the same time, I really, really miss talking to teachers. Because that’s something that energizes me so much.

Eric Cross (26:46):

When should students start learning computer science? I feel like we see it in this kind of narrow lane. Like, this is computer science if you make an app. Can it be more than that? As far as like the benefit of computer science? And—I guess two-part question—when should students, one, start being exposed to it? And then two, what are some of the benefits beyond just, “I wanna just make an app”?

Aryanna Trejo (27:08):

I taught coding to kindergartners. It can start as early as you as you want it to. And it doesn’t necessarily need to be on the computer. A lot of students that I worked with didn’t have computers at home, were interacting with computers for the first time. And that’s a huge barrier, of course, to a lot of teachers. But there are so many unplugged lessons that you can do to start to start to have students think about algorithms, which is just a series of steps to complete to solve a problem. As long as a student can use a computer, I think they can do computer science. There are products out there like codeSpark, where students—and Code.org has these products too—where students are moving an avatar around a board, kind of like a quadrant to…you know, they feed the directions to a computer and then the computer enacts it for them. And with that, they can learn algorithms. You know, that is computer science. And a lot of people don’t see it that way, but it really is. And it starts to set students up for more complex thinking as they move on.

Eric Cross (28:13):

One of the biggest underserved communities, geographically, are students in rural areas.

Aryanna Trejo (28:20):

Yep.

Eric Cross (28:21):

They can be reservations; they can be places just not an urban area. Is there a way to serve our communities of students and bring these skills in an unplugged way?

Aryanna Trejo (28:32):

Yeah. Yeah. If you typed in “unplugged computer science lessons” to Google, you’ll have a ton of hits. And there are so many students out there—not just in rural areas. But there’s incarcerated students. It hurts my heart to even say those words, but in urban areas too. Like in my classroom, where I only had four desktop computers. Access is a real struggle. And there’s things, like I said, instead of moving an avatar around a grid on the computer, I used to have an actual mat that I would take out to my kindergarten classrooms, lay it out, and it would have a grid on it. And we’d have one of the students act as the avatar and the rest of the students would give them directions to get to a different point on the grid. And there, you’re building an algorithm or just a series of steps. Like I said, it’s not some fancy term to solve a problem. And there’s multiple ways to solve that problem, too. And I think investigating that can be a really good way to stretch those lessons.

Eric Cross (29:32):

It almost sounds like an oxymoron, but this low-tech computer science strategy. Develop these skills and then transfer that once you have access to the tools.

Aryanna Trejo (29:39):

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it’s a good way for students who need kinesthetic means to start to understand something, or just different learning styles, to start transferring that over.

Eric Cross (29:53):

I probably have students in the classroom where those kinesthetic moving things would help be a great way—or WILL be a great way—for them to learn the principles and the fundamentals of coding. Instead of only giving the option to just do the computer, actually giving them some choice. Or giving them a way to be able to manipulate things. We’re still in the system of education that’s still very siloed. It’s been the same way for a hundred years. We got math and then we got science and we got English. I’m wondering, how can a teacher fit this into their daily lessons? And then, do you have any experiences or stories or things that you’ve seen, just really creative ways that you’ve seen teachers incorporate this? Outside the norm of, “This is a computer science class; we’re just gonna code.” But have you seen it branch out? In the trainings that you’ve done?

Aryanna Trejo (30:40):

I’ve seen examples of that. I’ve seen a teacher use Scratch to demonstrate different climates of California, and show the different climates. This past year for Hour of Code, my friend Amy—the one who helped me move to 9 Dots and at Code.org—she created this incredible tutorial called Poetry Bot. And it was a way to get students to match the mood of the poem to some of the elements that were happening in the stage. So they would have different backgrounds show up at different parts of the poem. When the words would show up, they would have different sprites show up. They would have, sometimes, sounds. Or the text would show up with different animations. So there are cross-curricular opportunities everywhere, if you can be creative enough to find them, or if you beg, borrow, steal from other educators who are doing this incredible work out there.

Eric Cross (31:36):

Yeah. I say this all the time, but I’m an educational DJ, not an MC.

Aryanna Trejo (31:44):

Oh yeah.

Eric Cross (31:45):

So MCs write their lyrics and DJs remix with things that other people have done.

Aryanna Trejo (31:48):

Absolutely.

Eric Cross (31:48):

I was like, I’m a DJ. I was like, all day. Sometimes I’ll write a lyric, once or twice, but most of the time I’m remixing things. So teachers, if you’ve been out there and you got an awesome interdisciplinary thing, or you’ve incorporated coding and it’s something that’s traditionally not seen, please send it to us. Share it with us.

Aryanna Trejo (32:03):

Yeah. And there are so many different places where you can find that. We have a forum for Code.org, but there’s also CSTA, the Computer Science Teachers Association. You can join your local chapter and get to know other computer science teachers out there.

Eric Cross (32:19):

I guess…to wrap up, I’ve been using Scratch programming, the MIT website. My students do the basic animated name, CS First, stuff. But over the years, I’ve noticed that my students are coming in with a higher level of sophistication in Scratch to where now the differentiation…some of my students are just doing very basic…and then I have other students who’ve created full-on video games with complex…like, you look at their Scratch page and it’s just an amazing amount of blocks and integrations and things that they have. Is there anything on Code.org that could be a next step? That takes them beyond, maybe like the visuals? And if so, what would be a good next step, to take students to advance them to another platform? There’s so many coding languages out there, I feel like. Or I might not even be thinking about that the right way.

Aryanna Trejo (33:20):

No, I think you are. You know, we have three different curricula out on our website right now. We have CS Fundamentals, which is probably more in line with what you’re talking about. We have a free CS Discoveries curriculum, and that is designed for, grades, I believe, 6 through 10. And that would be a really good entry point, for both teachers and for students.

Eric Cross (33:44):

There’s a lot of new stuff that I hadn’t seen yet, a few years ago.

Aryanna Trejo (33:49):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (33:49):

So I was really excited.

Aryanna Trejo (33:50):

One thing that I do know is that CS Discovery has just added an artificial intelligence slash machine-learning unit, that you can just pick up and give to your students. You don’t have to go in order with CS Discoveries, like you do with CS Principles. And I’ve gone through some of those lessons. They are really rad. And I would’ve loved to have learned that when I was in middle school or high school. So yeah, we’re constantly thinking of how we can make things one, relevant to our students, and two relevant to what’s going on in the world.

Eric Cross (34:20):

So would I be overselling it if I said, “If you go through this, you’ll be able to create an AI or a neural net to do all your homework”?

Aryanna Trejo (34:26):

You would be overselling it.

Eric Cross (34:27):

I would be? OK. So what I’ll do is, I’ll wait until the end of the school year, and then introduce it, and then by the time they’ve realized it’s not true, they’ll be eighth graders.

Aryanna Trejo (34:35):

There you go. Good old bait-and-switch.

Eric Cross (34:37):

You’re amazing. Thank you for serving teachers, and for being part of such a great organization that puts out great stuff. So much free curricula for teachers to be able to use. Especially nowadays we hunt and scour the internet for those types of things. And to be able to bring computer literacy into the classroom, and with your focus of serving communities of underrepresented groups, it feels good to know that not only is it high-quality material, but it’s also trying to raise everyone up. Because ultimately when we have more people trying to solve a common problem, we come up with better solutions. And I was talking to somebody who was a materials engineer somewhere in Europe, and he said one of the things about the U.S., As he was critiquing me on this flight, critiquing the U.S., He said, “One of the things about your country is that you have a heterogeneous group of people who, in a group, when you have multiple perspectives attacking a problem, you come up with more novel solutions.” He says, “That’s one of the great things, is that there’s not necessarily just a hive mind.” And I think that that’s one of the great things. We uplift different communities, and we uplift women, people of color, people who, have backgrounds that parents didn’t go to college but have these amazing qualities and strengths. And we put everybody focusing on the same issue. We come up with novel solutions that we wouldn’t have come up with if only select groups were trying to look at it and solve it. And so—.

Aryanna Trejo (36:22):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (36:23):

And we couldn’t do that without organizations like yours, that help empower teachers. So.

Aryanna Trejo (36:27):

Yeah! You really said it.

Eric Cross (36:29):

You’re coming to my classroom when you’re back in San Diego?

Aryanna Trejo (36:31):

Yeah! I totally will. Yeah. Let’s make it happen.

Eric Cross (36:34):

Last question. If you think back in your schooling, your own schooling, K through college, is there a person or a teacher that had a big impact on you? Or a learning experience that had an impact on you? And it could be, you know, positive or negative. But something that impacted you, even to this day, that stands out to you, that you remember?

Aryanna Trejo (36:56):

This is a big diversion from the topics that we’re talking about. But in grades 10 through 12, my drama teacher, Mr. Byler, who I still talk with, was such a huge impression on me. Really wonderful. And I couldn’t tell you the teaching moves that he did that were wonderful. I don’t know much about his management. But I can tell you that he gave me space to be confident, and grow into myself, through drama productions. They were high school productions, so they weren’t amazing. But I just really came into myself in high school, because I had the confidence to get on stage. And he was just such a wonderful mentor to all of us. So, props to Mr. Byler.

Eric Cross (37:39):

Shout out to Mr. Byler for creating space for Aryanna to fly! Thanks for making time, after your workday, to talk with us and to share Code.org with teachers.

Aryanna Trejo (37:54):

Of course. Happy to.

Eric Cross (37:59):

Thanks so much for joining me and Aryanna today. We want to hear more about you. If you have any great lessons or ways to keep student engagement high, please email us at stem@amplify.com. Make sure to click subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And join our brand new Facebook group, Science Connections: The Community for some extra content.

Shad Lacefield (00:00):
When you stay relevant, it’s being engaged with your students and figuring out, or what are, what are they liking? And every year it’s gonna be different. And that helps you stay relevant. When you have conversations and you build relationships with your kids,Eric Cross (00:13):
Welcome to science connections. I’m your host. Eric Cross. My guest today is Shad Layfield. Shad is a teacher at garden Springs elementary and a part-time professor at Asbury University in Kentucky during the first year of the pandemic, Mr. Layfield dressed up in over a hundred costumes to create a unique and engaging online learning experience for his students. He also created Vader visits, where he visited students at their homes, dressed as Darth Vader to celebrate their online successes and keep them encouraged. During a challenging time. In this episode, we discuss how creativity impacts engagement, transferring lessons learned from distance teaching back to in-person instruction, and how upper grades can apply the same principles to improve student learning. I hope you enjoy this discussion with shad lays field. So you’ve been in fourth grade for four years, and then you were in second grade and fifth grade. And so like how long have you been teaching for like total?

Shad Lacefield (01:09):
So this is my 15th year teaching.

Eric Cross (01:12):
Really? Yeah. You’ve been in the game for a while.

Shad Lacefield (01:15):
Yeah. Yep. It, it doesn’t, and it’s always surprising to parents too during that, that first like, come in and meet your teacher. And I walk in, I’m like, yeah, I’ve been teaching for 15 years and every time it gets ’em, they’re like no way. And I’m like, yeah,

Eric Cross (01:28):
That’s, that’s a good thing though. That’s a good thing. Right?

Eric Cross (01:31):
You know? So like, well the energy and then, and you’re just how you’re perceived. Like you’re, they’re just, I don’t know. It’s something about work with young people. Like it keeps you young.

Shad Lacefield (01:39):
That’s what it is. Absolutely.

Eric Cross (01:41):
So how did, how, like, what’s your origin story? Like, how did you become a teacher? Like what, what was it? Was it something like you knew second career, like right outta school? Like how did you end up in the classroom?

Shad Lacefield (01:53):
Yeah. No, and I love this question cause I’m a big Marvel and, and superhero. So origin stories are all, I love a good origin story. So I grew up on a 13 acre farm in a little bitty town called Gustin, Kentucky, and very early on, like we were instilled my parents, amazing, amazing parents. But they really instilled like a, a super important work ethic in our lives of like, it’s, it’s all about hard work and it’s important that you’re working hard in whatever it is that you do. And I’m one of six kids as well in my family.

Eric Cross (02:24):
Where are you in the–

Shad Lacefield (02:25):
I’m second to last.

Eric Cross (02:26):
Second to last. Okay. So you’re the second youngest.

Shad Lacefield (02:29):
Yes. Okay. And and so, and so growing up, like with that, like, you know, I worked in tobacco, I worked in hay, you know, we did things being on the farm and stuff like that. And within my family as well, there’s four boys. And so when I decided to go to college I was the first guy in my family to go to college. And the first and only boy that ended up going to college. And so it was like this big deal, like, oh, you know, we got one of our boys gonna go to college. So what is he gonna be? And I was like, well, if I’m gonna put forth the, the time and effort and then the financial strain that it would cause cuz we were not poor at all. My dad worked two jobs to make sure, but I really felt the responsibility of like, if I’m gonna go, I’m gonna work in a profession.

Shad Lacefield (03:09):
That’s gonna make a lot of money. And here I am as a teacher now. So I didn’t go to college to be a teacher. I actually was pre dentistry. I thought, now here’s a profession. You can, a lot of money. You don’t work weekends or holidays, you know, I can still be the doctor thing. And so I’m gonna be pre dentistry. But like all good origin stories. There was a, there was a flip. So in my first year I started working at the most majestic place that you will ever go. It’s called Squire, boon, caverns. It’s a cave in Southern Indiana. And it’s an amazingly beautiful little place. You have to like one lane highway, like road to go back there up and down. Like you, you think you’re never gonna make it. And if it rains too much, the bridge will flood and you actually can’t even get back there.

Shad Lacefield (03:52):
So that’s how we’re talking like way back in the sticks. But once you get back, back there totally worth it. And as part of the job you were a tour I also did grist mill demonstrations and gym mining adventures, or, you know, as they’re gym mining and stuff like that. And within that, I started working with school aged kids and on very large tours and stuff. And my manager at the time, Claudia, I’m still great friends with and we still take our kids back there. Every summer she, to me, you’re really good with kids. Like you’re really good with kids. We have this scout program that’s on the weekends. And then during the summers and you would be teaching kindergarten through eighth grade kids, geology and forestry. What do you think about doing that? And I said, well, right, let’s try that out. And then I got the teaching bug and it hit and I was like, oh my gosh, like I don’t wanna spend my life doing something that is all about money or, or that is like, this is where it’s at. Like, I love this, I enjoy this. I enjoy the response that I get when I’m talking. And kids are excited about learning and getting new information and learning new stuff. And so then I change my major and here I am now, all these years later teaching instead of being a dentist,

Eric Cross (05:04):
Are there, are there days, do you ever have days where you’re like, you know, dentistry, it’s still an option. Like I can, I can go back.

Shad Lacefield (05:12):
Oh, rare, rare occasions. Rarely. Yeah.

Eric Cross (05:16):
Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. Fair enough. I, I, I always joke and say that like we have, you know, sometimes I have my, my alternate job on the hard days, which is for me, it’s working at the gap where I just want to fold clothes and go home at the end of the day, you know, on those really rough days. And you know, it’s never the kids, right. It’s always other things. The kids are like the great part. And then there’s all these other things. And I just wanna work at the gap. I just wanna work at the gap. Fold some clothes. Yes, sir. Yes. Ma’am absolutely. I can find that size for you. And then I just go home cause about their job when they go home at the end of the day, when you work at the gap, at least sorry, gap workers. I’m sure hard of that, but my perception in my mind is that you close up shop and then you’re done. Yeah,

Shad Lacefield (05:52):
Absolutely. Like you said, they can turn it, like it’s a turnoff at the end. Exactly. As teachers we know, like you don’t ever turn it off, it’s always there.

Eric Cross (06:00):
Yeah. So one of the things that I was super excited about when I, when I first heard about you is I went on your website and there’s so many things I feel like I can just talk about your website and just the, the content that you’ve produced. I, I, there’s so many directions I can go. But one, one of the things I want to ask you is, is about that. Now, one of the things that’s on there, and this is coming from a fellow star wars, Fisha who finished Bobba FET and the Mandalorian recently and is Jones in four OB one to come out.

Shad Lacefield (06:33):
Oh, so yes,

Eric Cross (06:35):
I live in Southern California next to Disneyland visited Galaxy’s edge star wars. You have these things called VA Vader visits. And so what do you do in those? And like, where did you get the idea for these Vader visits?

Shad Lacefield (06:50):
So the costumes were bringing the kids into the classroom. But when they left my room because you would, we only had them for a certain amount of time. There was still a lot of extra work that they needed to get done. And what I was seeing was I could get them to come in and they were really engaged during my lesson. But then afterwards, when it came to work completion or getting things done, there was, it was starting to fall off. As you know, we were experiencing, you know, more and more craziness of what’s going on. So then as an incentive, I decided if you have everything turned in, by the end of the day, I’m gonna dress up in my Darth Vader outfit, full costume, the, you know, the, the full helmet, like everything. And I’m gonna show up to your house and we’re gonna hang out and play any game at all that you wanna play.

Shad Lacefield (07:34):
So then it was a way of rewarding. My kids for getting everything turned in. But same time I felt like it would also help me build a relationship with them. That was a very challenging part of online learning. Like, again, I want you to feel like you’re a part of my classroom. I wanna feel like I’m invested in you and wanna learn about you. And it was a commitment because some of those kids put me through the ringer, whether it was we’re gonna do gymnastics on a trampoline. And again, I’m in full costume doing gymnast on the trampoline, or we’re doing soccer drills with their soccer coach at their house playing football games. I mean, all kinds of stuff. I made a Yachty game for a kid that loves Harry Potter. And it was really a big part of getting work turned in because, and it’s the crazy thought they wanted to spend time with me. Like that’s what it was. And so it was like, yeah, absolutely. I’ll keep dressing up. I did over 50 plus Vater visits. It wasn’t just for my homeroom. It was for all of fourth grade. So I went over 50 visits and it was cool to see kids in their home and talk to them and meet their parents. It was a great opportunity for me to engage with parents as well. How is online learning, going, what can I do to support you? Do you guys have any questions and stuff like that? So

Eric Cross (08:39):
This thing of relationships is like leading to work completion, which isn’t, which isn’t always the, the thing that we think to as educators of like how, you know, work completion. A lot of times we think of like structures or you know, certain protocols that you do in class get work completion, but here you are addressing as Darth Vader. And, and you said students were turning in more work because they’re connected to, you saw an increase in, in yeah. Engagement.

Shad Lacefield (09:07):
And absolutely. And, and I remember even saying that to myself, like this is, this is what’s getting them. But it, it was, and as part of the Vader visit as well with the videos we recorded all of them and I said, I’m gonna make you a YouTube star. And so I would, I, I recorded them. I put ’em on my YouTube channel. And so a lot of the videos that are on my website, all those Vader visits are like the kids showing off and playing against the teacher. And I promise you, I didn’t take it easy on any one of those kids. Like when it was like a verse match, I went all out and I told ’em. I was like, if you beat me, you know, it’s gonna be like, you earned it.

Eric Cross (09:38):
What a great way to leverage, just what, what is relevant to our students? Like you used your platform and then now you’re showcasing them on your, you know, your platform or what you were using. And then they’re seeing each other. And I could just see, regardless of the grade level, like just students, like beam from, from getting that kind of positive praise through, through, you know a medium that doesn’t, that tends to be more of a, just content consumption, but you’re kind of watching other folks do stuff, but now it’s about them. Like, and they’re, they’re getting that attention directly. Now I have to ask about the Vader costume. Did you, did you buy it for this event or did you already have that Darth Vader costume in your closet?

Shad Lacefield (10:19):
I had parts of the costume, but not the complete costume. And honestly, the very first Vader visit I had, I had the Vader mask that makes sounds, and like you could talk and it makes you sound like Vader.

Eric Cross (10:29):
My dark saber is on order. Yes. And it keeps getting delayed from best buy. It’s supposed to arrive in April, but I do have dark staple and order that I ordered back in November. So the best to your point, I don’t know who doesn’t have one, I’m waiting for mine though.

Shad Lacefield (10:42):
There you go, come on. Best buy come through for us. So

Eric Cross (10:44):
You, you did all this investment in time and, and you created all this content, but then we went back in person. Were, were you able to bring this back into the classroom or any of the things that you had generated during distance learning back in the classroom? Or are you, are you using some of the things that you learned? Like what, or is it just completely separate and you’re just doing something completely different. Now

Shad Lacefield (11:04):
That’s a great question. So I still try to dress up at least once every week, if not once every other week just to make whatever we’re doing fun, cuz I already have costumes that were connected to the content that I was doing. So had I had made a character called captain Soundwave that will use when I’m teaching my amplify lessons over sound. And so then I, you know, I have that or I would have, you know, specific characters that were designed for certain lessons that I would do. And so I still

Eric Cross (11:32):
Lemme interrupt you real quick. Where did you get these character ideas from? Cause they are super creative. I clicked on one random one. And you have had like a, a knitted like skull cap and like some blue shiny like cloak and I like who is this guy? I think, is that him? Is that captain sound wave? That’s

Shad Lacefield (11:48):
That’s hilarious. That was, that was my attempted Elsa. Oh, that was yeah. Started buying more and more costumes and and making characters and putting costumes together. And so yeah, it just ends up being this thing where you never know when I’m gonna show up in a completely random costume and be like today, we’re getting ready to learn about how sedimentary rocks form. And I dressed in my rock outfit, which is the old school rock with the turtleneck and the gold chain with,

Eric Cross (12:16):
Wait, do you have a Fanny pack too?

Shad Lacefield (12:17):
I have a Fanny pack. Yes you have. Yep. You nailed it. And they’re like, what does this guy

Eric Cross (12:22):
Do? He raise the one eyebrow. Can you do the, the rock eyebrow? Oh yeah, you got this. Oh, people on the podcast. Can’t see. Chad’s got it down. He’s got it down. He’s got the, he’s got the eyebrow going. Okay, so you, so I feel like I can go on a tangent and talk about all your costumes that you have, but the thinking about this. So tons of engagement, younger people now taking like some of the principles that you’ve learned from this, how can, how can upper grades like bring this joy to their classroom? Like middle school students, you know, older kids sometimes, you know, they can, they’re still kids, but you know, they might not be the same thing as fourth graders. Like would you, do you have any ideas of like how teachers and upper grades can kind of take these elements that you’ve done and, and apply them?

Shad Lacefield (13:04):
Absolutely. So some of the things that you had talked about, like with YouTube can also be applied to like TikTok videos and things like that, that kids are, are willing to watch and, and be engaged in. And so those things, I feel like I’ve seen other middle and high school teachers really utilize in their classroom. But honestly, and this is a new initiative that we’ve started in our district. Minecraft has been something that a lot of kids play and are really engaged in and has shown an amazing engagement for all of our kids when it comes to science engagement, particularly. And so with that, so there’s 126 million active Minecraft players right now in the world. And Minecraft is one of the largest selling video games. The average age, cuz they’re always like, oh, Minecraft is for kids who actually the average age is like 24.

Shad Lacefield (13:51):
So a lot of the older kids are playing Minecraft as well with the younger kids. And with that in mind, it was a way when I looked at Minecraft and specifically like Minecraft educational edition came out and it was during COVID and it was free. So if you had a school email or it’s like the, what the go 365 account, you could get it for free and all of our kids got it for free. And so then, then we went from playing Minecraft on the computer as like a fun game to me looking at it and saying like, wait a minute. I feel like when I’m doing energy conversions, we can take Redstone and Minecraft and kids can now show how a simple system using different parts and devices can work and understand even more con creates how energy is converted from one form to another.

Shad Lacefield (14:39):
And so let’s make this a, a, a, an actual activity. Let’s take what I’m teaching in the classroom. And if they get done early as an enrichment piece, because there’s not a ton of science and enrichment activities at times for kids to be able to do, like, what do I do when I’m done, Minecraft ended up being that. And so I could have these elaborate worlds that I would build for them that they could then go and play and be super engaged in and show me way more on this Minecraft world, what they knew than what they were writing on paper sometimes, cuz I, you know, you’d get like a sentences out of them on paper, but then all of a sudden when they would build this elaborate system and you just had them record and talk, it was like, oh my gosh, you understand way more than I was thinking that you did with that last exit slip, an assessment that we did.

Shad Lacefield (15:25):
And so like, this is awesome. So then I went to my district and I actually proposed an idea what if we did tire Minecraft build challenges for the whole district? So our district has 37 elementary schools and I was like, I think this could be something that, you know, as we’re looking for science, curriculum engagement and making kids excited about learning science and stuff again, cuz that was always the hard part. I feel like sometimes with COVID everything kids lost this love of, of being in the classroom and, and, and learning and that it was like, you know, getting them to come back into the classroom and, and finding, learning fun again. It was like this, this started to get ’em excited and like, yeah, I get to play in Minecraft and I’m learning at the same time. And it was working for all kinds of content areas.

Shad Lacefield (16:07):
We’re doing a blast off to, to Mars. We it’s called blast off to us. We’re partnering with CLO of the future. They’re working with SpaceX. Our kids will actually get to send postcards to space and yes, it’s, it’s a super cool thing. And I love my district and all of the office of technology, individuals, Ashley Josh and Kelly for putting this together. And so it asks this question if you could a community in space, what would it be like? And the goal is that kids will write on the back what they want. And then we send this postcard off to space, they stamp it saying it’s been in space and the kids get to have it back and, and be able to use it. But what, what we decided, what we could do with Minecraft is what if they actually built the colony on Mars, like really research put time and effort into reading scientific articles about plants and how plants would grow and, and water and, and structures and apply all of that in a massive build challenge. And then that be, you know what we’re doing? That can be the answer to the question. And so it’s not just a couple sentences on a postcard, but it’s like a week or two week unit that pulls all this scientific content and standards that we’re working with and really allows kids to show so much creativity like on my Twitter I’ve been posting like pictures and stuff like that of some of the students builds. And I’m gonna continue to do that throughout the build challenge.

Eric Cross (17:26):
Now, are you using Minecraft EDU?

Shad Lacefield (17:28):
Yes. That is correct.

Eric Cross (17:29):
I love Minecraft EDU. Like it, it, you talking about it inspires me to, to try to dive back into it. One of the things sometimes I feel limited by is the time that I have and the things that we’re trying to cover. And it’s almost, it almost feels like we’re doing something wrong using a video game to teach, but it’s such a great educational tool. Like you said, you just said that students are able to show what they know in, in a way by creating something that’s different than if they would’ve just written it, but they’re actually creating, and this is one of the things, I guess you kind of hit on this, but I wanted to probe it a little more. Is do you have your students creating content like you do? Cause I kind of heard that they, you were, did you say that they were explaining or doing a video recording or describing it? How are they, how are they, how are they doing that work?

Shad Lacefield (18:17):
Yeah. So what they actually do is they’ll write a script and they will use Screencastify to record and then upload to Flipgrid. And then that way they can actually show their build to all of fourth grade. Since we weren’t allowed to be in the same class, like we were all departmentalized, so then we will have voting challenges. So after you record, you get to see everyone’s videos, you get to like and comment and leave feedback on their builds. So you can see what the other kids created. And then then from those initial videos and voting, we selected a certain of kids that then go on to the district level for our Minecraft build challenge. And then those videos are viewed by administration and other teachers to vote again. And then you end up having grade level winners and then an overall winner, which shout out to my boy in fourth grade, who was our overall winner, Eli, super proud of him.

Shad Lacefield (19:07):
He, he made this really, really space saving system, which was hidden stairs that ran off of Redstone and used motion, energy. And again, in his video, he talks about like how motion energy has changed to electrical energy and then back into motion through the process of how this hidden staircase would be in the wall. And then you’d be able to use this lever to then release that staircase. So you could go up and down but it was just, and again, when you, when you let kids talk about energy conversions and you let them build all of a sudden, you have kids making security systems for banks. Another kid that made a feeding system for kids for animals at the zoo, and it was just like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that this was what you guys could run out and do. When I, when I taught you how energy conversions work, that this is what you could produce and come over, like this is mind blowing. I love it,

Eric Cross (19:56):
What our kids can do and what they can create always kind of blows us away when we give them an opportunity to kind of have that freedom to, to create and take their knowledge and actually do something with it versus channel it into what, show me what, you know, but only do it like this. This is, this is the lane that you have to stay in. How do you get these ideas and, and stay, stay relevant? Like so many of the things like you’re touching, like pop culture, you, you have this hand in education technology, you have you’re, you’re doing video editing. Like where are you drawing from? Cause I’m just thinking like, as a teacher listening to this, that might be newer. And they go to the side like, oh my gosh, this, this guy is doing these so many things like where are you drawing from for inspiration or ideas?

Shad Lacefield (20:39):
I think a lot of it is like you say, when, when you stay relevant, it’s being engaged with your students and figuring out, or what are, what are they liking? And every year it’s gonna be different. And that helps you stay relevant. When you have conversations and you build relationships with your kids to figure out, you know, what’s going on. Because I was not a big Minecraft person. It was the group that came in that really challenged me to do Minecraft because it, it showed up on their Chromebooks one day and all of a sudden it’s like, oh, we can play Minecraft all the time. And I said, no, you can’t play Minecraft until that I’ve had training. And I know what’s going on because I’m super nervous about this new thing. And I wanna make sure you guys aren’t doing something that you’re not supposed to.

Shad Lacefield (21:13):
And like, they hounded me hardcore about you better do you need to do that training, Mr. Lacefield, you need to, we wanna play Minecraft. You better be doing this. Right. And so I was like, all right, man, I’ll, I’ll invest. I’ll, I’ll put some time into this training. And I’m so glad that I did yeah, again, that’s it just like building relationships and having those conversations help you realize like, what’s, what’s what are they interested in? What what’s going on and what would be really funny, even connecting that back to the costumes. What would it be really funny if I showed up in you know, today, princess Jasmine.

Eric Cross (21:42):
Yeah.

Shad Lacefield (21:43):
Been yes. Done that. That’s a great one. I,

Eric Cross (21:45):
I, I just went to the social studies page. I, and I stop laughing while you were talking. Cause I saw the princess Jasmine.

Shad Lacefield (21:52):
Oh yeah. Folks.

Eric Cross (21:53):
I’m telling you, you have to go, you have to go to his videos and see what he’s done. I mean, they’re just, they’re just amazing with my middle school students. They, I, I find myself having to be into things that I’m not normally into. And we have these intergenerational relationships, right? Like I think teachers are unique in this I aspect where I can connect with a 12 year old with what 12 year olds are in no matter where this 12 year old’s from. Cuz I get 12 year old culture. But sometimes when I go back into my adult world, like I forget that like, Hey yeah, haven’t watched a new anime you know, or, or whatever, you know, up

Shad Lacefield (22:26):
That. Yeah. No said too. And a kid will show up wearing a, a shirt to school and I’m like, I wasn’t the world’s that like, I’ve never even seen that before. And you’re like, okay, I’m gonna have to learn what that is cuz that yeah.

Eric Cross (22:38):
And then the next student asks you about, Hey, do you like, do you like these this game? I’m like, yeah, yeah, let me go Google that game real quick. Yeah, I’m totally into it. I’m downloading on my phone real quick. And, and now I’m connected to all kinds of obscure random interests, but to your, to what you said, it like, it helps keep us fresh, right? With I, with ideas, there, there is something that is super practical that you’ve done that you’ve created that I’ve encouraged teachers to do. And I think you really nailed it. On your site, you have these video tutorials. When I look at those, I, I think about how much time you must have saved yourself of not having to explain the same exact thing multiple times. Because you’ve created this virtual help section that allows students to log in amplify earth, check, Flipgrid, whatever. Like do you, when you’re, when you’re teaching students, do you, do you use those in direct students there so they can kind of support themselves? Or is that, what, how did that come to be when you, when you made these, these virtual tools? Because I could just imagine these are time savers for you.

Shad Lacefield (23:49):
Absolutely. Cuz again, like you said, it’s it saves on time. So a lot of when you have kids that are already visual learners as well, and they love watching YouTube and they learn stuff from YouTube, why not? I mean, make the video and then attach it to my Google classroom, keeping everything online. Everyone always has access. And by still having those videos, it allows kids to hear the directions multiple time, but on their time and at their pace. So then it’s posted on the assignment. So even though I probably still will give those directions verbally out loud if a kid forgets and maybe they feel a little nervous about asking in front of their peers, like, oh, how do I do this again? Or, oh, I don’t remember how to do that. That video is linked on there. So that way they can go back and watch it.

Eric Cross (24:28):
It’s almost like a little co-teacher that you have like a little aide that’s like, but it’s you, but it’s like a mini you who’s helping you out. I found that putting sometimes those tutorial videos on ed puzzle, where at different points in time, you can set it up so that at a certain timestamp, it asks a question and you can control it. So they can’t move faster past it until they respond to the question and you have the question be about whatever you just said. And then it, it syncs with Google classroom. So you can import all the grades and you can see how far through the video they got. But that was one other layer that I was able to do. So I can have some accountability and make sure that okay, everybody watched it and they answered all five questions of like, how do you do this?

Shad Lacefield (25:07):
Oh, see, now you’re sharing stuff with me, Eric, because I, I’m not as familiar with ed puzzle. I’ve used like near pod and per deck, but I mean just you saying that I’m like, okay, I need to check out ed puzzle and, and see what, what this is all about. Cause that sounds awesome.

Eric Cross (25:20):
Hey, I shared something with Chad and it it’s useful. I’m I’m feeling good right now. I’m feel I’m feeling good. So as we, as we kind of wind down one, couple questions I wanna ask. One of ’em is you’ve been in teaching for, for 15 years and I, I talk to you like right now and I get this energy and this vibe that’s just so upbeat, so positive. How do you stay fresh, fresh. And how did you stay fresh during a time when things have been so hard, you know, and it, and still is for so many educators, how do you stay encouraged? Like what, what have you done and, and to stay in, in education for, for this long,

Shad Lacefield (26:00):
I think it, it even goes back to like when I made my initial decision to switch my major to education, like I, I really felt like I found so thing that I thoroughly loved and enjoyed, and I always feel like you go through seasons. Like, and I definitely, when, when COVID hit, like you went through a season of where you start to feel again, that pressure like do I really like doing this as much as I thought that I like doing this and am I ready for this next thing? And then I just go back to just the, well, why did I do this to begin with? And, and it gets me, you know, excited to be like, I did it for the kids, like, and it’s about the kids. And I get joy when they’re laughing and smiling. So again, with the videos, it’s like, how can I make ’em laugh and smile because if they’re laughing and smiling and having a good time, I’m gonna get, you know, jacked and ready to start teaching again.

Eric Cross (26:48):
And I just hear that so much in what you’re saying is you’re serving your kids is, is being more than that building the relationship, that connection. And then through all that, the learning happens. The last question I wanna ask you is who’s one teacher that created a memorable experience for you or inspired you. Is it someone that you remember when you were in school or learn experience that just, that stands out to you to this day? Cuz as teachers, we remember thi like our kids remember us and it’s weird to be in that position to think that we’re gonna be that person. So is there anybody or anything that stands out to you that you remember from a, a teacher and experience?

Shad Lacefield (27:27):
Gosh, I have, I have a lot that you know, from my fifth grade science teacher, Mr. Goodman, who we did the ecology meet and the ecology team, and we went to OT Creek park and we competed against other schools about science, connected materials to my physics teacher in high school that let us build boats out of cardboard and take it to the only hotel in our town and the pool. And we had like boat races with the cardboard boats that we did. But really I, I go back to Squire boon and Claudia my manager and I remember not only was, she’s such a, a pivotal like getting me into teaching. But I remember the, the curriculum that we were using at the time that I was. And again, it goes back to what if I was to teach that curriculum, I would not still be a teacher because again, as sometimes you experience with curriculum, it can be boring and not engaging. And I was already putting my own flare on it at SQUI boon during the scout lessons. And I said, what if I just completely rewrote this curriculum? What if I made it really fun and put my own, spin on it? And, and she was like, absolutely, absolutely do that. And I feel like that encouragement as teachers, when we encourage kids to be creative when we encourage kids to, to take risk and to try new things we end up getting such amazing results that we didn’t even expect

Eric Cross (28:45):
Thought I out to Mr. Goodman for the ecology meet the physics teacher for the, the boat races, which are hilarious, by the way, if you’ve ever been able to watch students, did you make ’em at a cardboard?

Shad Lacefield (28:53):
We did. Yep.

Eric Cross (28:54):
Yeah. Those are hilarious to watch. And Claudia for giving the freedom to let you be a educational DJ and remix things to make it fun. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for your inspiration and for sharing your stuff like publicly and letting other people see it and, and get ideas. It’s, I’m sure there’s more people than, you know, and more teachers than, you know, that are looking at that and getting their own ideas and coming up with their own. It might not be star wars, but coming up with their own inspiration, maybe it’s like Harry Potter or Lord of the rings or some like that.

Shad Lacefield (29:26):
Yeah. Whatever. You’re passionate about. Pull that in.

Eric Cross (29:31):
Thanks so much for joining me and Shad today. We want to hear more about you. If you have any great lessons or ways to keep student engagement high, please email us at stem@amplify.com. That’s STEM@amplify.com and make sure to click, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts until next time.

Joe McCormick (00:00):
Being disabled. It’s like trying to find some way to be flexible and find some workaround. There’s always a way to get there. It’s just going to be maybe a little bit different or a little out of the box.

Eric Cross (00:12):
Welcome to science connections. I’m your host. Eric Cross. My guest today is Joe McCormick. When Joe is applying to Ivy League schools and leading the robotics team, he suddenly started losing his vision. By the end of his senior year, he had completely lost his central vision in both eyes due to a rare genetic condition. Joe ultimately went to Harvard to study engineering while navigating his new world with vision loss. Eventually, he graduated and fulfilled his dream of becoming an engineer. One of the things I was inspired by in this conversation was Joe’s resilient optimism. This theme arose again and again, as he shared his story and gave his reflections on how educators can support students with visual impairments. And now please enjoy this great discussion with Joe McCormick. So you’re in the middle of school. And how did that realization come about that something was wrong?

Joe McCormick (01:10):
Yeah, so I was definitely more student than athlete and student-athlete. So my primary thing was robotics club. So I was like really big in robotics. We did a program called Botball and so that was like my primary sport. The board that we play on is built of PVC pipe. And so I went to like, look through a PVC pipe and then I went to take the cap off of it. And there was no cap. It was just literally, I just couldn’t see through like a 12-inch tube. And then I quickly realized something was wrong here. And so I had to kind of go through the motions of trying to figure out like what was wrong. And luckily I was diagnosed fairly quickly for it being a super rare disease and they figured out within a couple weeks.

Eric Cross (01:47):
What’s the name of it.

Joe McCormick (01:48):
It’s called, Leber Hereditary Optic Neuropathy. People just call it LHON for short. It’s like super, super rare. I think the last stats I saw is that there’s like 60 new cases a year in the U.S.

Eric Cross (01:59):
I figured the advancements in genetic testing since it was first diagnosed ’til now, have there been treatments for gene therapy?

Joe McCormick (02:08):
So I got lucky that I’m in a trial. I got in a trial when I first started losing my sight. So I was the third person in the world to get this particular drug to treat it, and it actually was pretty effective for me. But on the unfortunate side, because I was the third person in the world to get it, I couldn’t really get the dosage I needed for a while. From the time that I got kind of what my current dosage is, my site has not gotten any worse and this is typically a degenerative disease, but it took them like two months to legally get me to the right limit. And in that time period I lost a decent amount of sight.

Eric Cross (02:39):
And you’re still currently in that trial.

Joe McCormick (02:41):
I still am. Yeah. They stopped enrolling patients maybe seven years ago. So there’s, I think 10 of us left in the trial, but luckily I’m still in it, which is awesome.

Eric Cross (02:50):
You were humble as far as like your athletic skills, like you played sports. You know, in high school and that’s like a big feat ,and then you, you did Botball, which I’m pretty familiar with is that the building the robots to be able to …

Joe McCormick (03:00):
The games were, I would say, made up, but revolved around, trying to usually move like POM POM balls or small items through some sort of obstacle course. So our team finished on our best season. We finished third internationally.

Eric Cross (03:16):
How early did you get involved in that?

Joe McCormick (03:17):
I started my freshman year of high school, so, back in 2006. And pretty quickly was able to kind of get to captain on the team, I think, in my sophomore year. And so they’ll pursue that for, for all four years in the process.

Eric Cross (03:32):
So you make it through high school, you’re in college now and now you’re navigating college. Now, have you lost your vision or is it a slow progression?

Joe McCormick (03:41):
It was interesting, because obviously the spring of senior year is also when you have to commit to college. So I found out I lost sight in one eye first and basically with this disease, it’s kind of a ticking time bomb that I was going to lose sight in my other eye. It was just a matter of, is it days, weeks, or months? I found out about this disease at the beginning of March of 2010 and two weeks later I found out I got into MIT. So that was super exciting. And right around that time, when I started to lose my sight, I got in this clinical trial. I also found out I got into Harvard off the wait list, which was now an interesting decision, because obviously Harvard is probably less strong historically in the engineering side, but really strong in computer science and really strong at everything else.

Joe McCormick (04:24):
And so Harvard, I think gave me a much more vast array of choices, where again, if it turns out that after losing my sight, I can’t do engineering well, I could fall back into like anything that Harvard offers because it kind of offers everything and it was an awesome fit for everything I wanted to do at the time. And, the other thing that is interesting is obviously on the accessibility side is Harvard had a really, really awesome accessible education office and did a really good job of making sure I’d be able to integrate with the rest of the students, get the books I needed, get everything I needed, accessibly. And MIT surprisingly did not. I mean, they had something, but it was as one big concept. They say, I won’t be able to read any printed material once you lose your sight. And at Harvard they say, okay, cool. We’ll look at your course and we’ll know that you need these books. We’ll go get all those books, turn them into PDFs and send them over to you.

Eric Cross (05:13):
During those first couple years, what was it like having to transition with a new kind of learning style using these accessibility tools?

Joe McCormick (05:21):
Harvard very much did not want me to start immediately. They were very much like, oh, take a gap year, go learn all the tooling, or at least take the first semester off and come and start afterwards. And I was extremely adamant that I did not want to do that. In that I wanted to be able to kind of start college with the rest of my friends and finish college with my friends, the timeline kind of worked out was I started to lose sight in my second eye in may and obviously school starts in end of August. And so it was a very quick turnaround where I had to learn these tools. For me, It was like, okay, like I can’t work on a piece of paper anymore ’cause I can’t read my own handwriting at all. So what, what can I do?

Joe McCormick (05:54):
And so, I thought of, okay, let me just get a whiteboard. And so we installed the whiteboard in my dorm room and then I worked with a whiteboard and a whiteboard marker, so I could write whatever font that I could see. And then what I did is after I filled up the board, I would just take a picture on digital camera and I would basically then wipe the board, do all over again. And at the end of a lesson, I would just connect that to my printer and print out eight and half by 11 sheets of paper with my work on it that started on a four-foot by four-foot board and now ends up on eight and a half by 11. I hand that into the professors. Ultimately I think, especially, being disabled, it’s like trying to find some way to be flexible and find some work around, because I think there’s always a way to get there. It’s just going to be maybe a little bit different or a little out of the box.

Eric Cross (06:33):
The question I wanna ask is like, was there an emotional component for you in this as you were going through trying to find these solutions or did you just find it as another thing to tinker with?

Joe McCormick (06:44):
Yeah, I think I’m relatively unique in that I am like, optimistic to a fault. I always think that something is going to work out in my favor and maybe something’s eventually going to blow up my face, but, usually they don’t. And so I think from my side, it was like, well, this is, is just another challenge that I have to work through. One night in the very beginning, when I first found out the actual prognosis being kind of permanent loss of central vision, and that’s one where it’s like, oh wow, this, this hits you hard. And at that point in time, I was really thinking about the future and like I’m never gonna see my children’s face. I’m never gonna do all that stuff. And I now have a son to look at his face and yeah, I can’t see him from across the room, but if I’m a few feet in front of him, I can still see that smile and see him be excited about stuff.

Eric Cross (07:22):
What advice if you’re thinking about teachers that are working with students who are visually impaired, what advice would you give them or, teachers with IEPs or disabilities in general? Is there anything that you kind of looking back would, would tell them?

Joe McCormick (07:35):
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think it’s an interesting factor too, because I also myself was a teacher in that I was a teaching assistant for computer science courses. And so obviously then on the other side, I need to be accommodating to my students in the process. So I was a teaching assistant for two years, for the intro CS course at Harvard. And I think the same thing that probably teachers are doing on a daily basis, just in non-disability scenarios, of being flexible is key, right? As you mentioned, like not everyone’s gonna receive information the same way, whether that’s due to any number of disabilities or just that, I don’t know, they’re not feeling it that day or different people are visual learners versus auditory learners versus hands-on learners. Like I think for everybody there’s some different way that they probably best process that information and best work.

Joe McCormick (08:21):
And I think for teachers, it’s trying to find the strength and find it in each person. And I think it’s a collaborative effort, right? I don’t think it’s the teacher’s job be like, hey, this is exactly how you should do it. It’s like, oh, let’s talk about some different ways that we can solve this. And that’s much easier to do when it’s a high school student than if it was like a second grade student. But as a high school student who’s particularly, I’d say, if they’re motivated, they’re gonna collaborate with the teacher to help brainstorm different ways to do it. But I think really starting to think outside the box. And when I would join classes in college, one of the first things I’d say to a professor was like, hey, I can’t see anything you’re gonna write on the board. So anything you ever write, as long as you say what you’re writing, I’ll be able to follow along. But if you don’t say it, I’ll have no idea what you’re talking about.

Eric Cross (09:05):
Is that something you would say in the beginning, like when you met them, you’d lead with that?

Joe McCormick (09:09):
I would, ’cause I would say, basically you have the equivalent to an IEP, but I would have like a letter of accommodations, which is what I was by the university kind of permitted to be accommodated for. And that included like, extra time for testing, private room for testing so I could do this whiteboard setup, use of my computer in the classroom to take notes. And so I would come to them after the first day and I would say like, hey, like just so you know, like these are accommodations that I have, but I was like, here’s some basic tips that would work well for me. And again, the saying what they wrote on the board is super important in math and science classes. I wouldn’t need to tell that to the literature class right?

Joe McCormick (09:46):
Everyone would be talking anyways in the process. But again, for most professors, all they needed was that little prompt and then they were fine, and maybe they needed a reminder after a little bit. But the other thing is like people get into teaching because they want students to learn. They want them to succeed. So having an accommodation, I don’t think is going to feel for them to be like this huge burden. It’s like, oh yeah. If I did this little thing, your life gets better. And then they quickly realize like, yeah, that’s not too hard. Like I can gladly do that in the process. And so for me again, maybe it’s just me being lucky, but I never got any pushback from any professor ever in my four years to do any of the things I was asking for in the process. And I think some of that is again being flexible for both directions, but also just kind of presenting the why behind the what, right? Like it’s not saying like, hey, you need to do this. It’s like, hey, this will help me because X, Y, Z. And I think for motivating anybody, if they know why they should be doing something, they’ll be much more interested in doing it than if they’re just told what to do

Eric Cross (10:40):
And hearing that self-advocacy, like when you are in college, I’m thinking about how do I encourage my students to also advocate for themselves and own what they need. I’m teaching middle school science students. And they’re at an age where they know if they have a special learning need or a health impairment. They know these different contexts that they live in that impact their learning and then advocating for their self and saying, this is my learning, how do I communicate that to an adult, which at that age just can be tough because the adult, there’s this huge power difference and age difference, but them knowing like, no, it’s about me, I’m going to advocate for myself and speak to this teacher and let them know this is what I need for my support.

Joe McCormick (11:19):
I can’t picture myself as a 10-year-old or a 12-yearold being able to advocate like I can as an 18, 19, 20-year-old, right? So it’s definitely a lot tougher from that side. And I think it will probably require much more work as the teacher to help pull that out of the students more than when it’s basically having as a college student, basically an adult in the process.

Eric Cross (11:36):
It is. And demystifying that even though they’re adults and we’re adults, that it is okay to speak about the things that you need. And everybody comes to it from a different background and perspective on that. Especially children, they look at adults in different ways. And if you come from a family that says whatever they do is right, then you’re not gonna be as likely to speak up for yourself. And if you come from a family that encourages you to engage in inter-generational dialogue and things like that, you’re gonna be more active in participating, and as teachers, it’s important that we empower our students to use voice and to advocate for themselves. And right. It is a process of allowing them the permission and feel like they can do this. And it is okay to do.

Eric Cross (12:19):
It’s not disrespectful. It’s not, they always know best. It’s something that I always try to do with my own students. And I know many teachers who are listening, it’s one thing that we want to do, ’cause once they’re away from us, once, you know, especially the teachers who are trying to make sure they’re serving and differentiating the various needs, they may not always have someone like that in the classroom. They might always be that person or be with that teacher who’s doing those things. And so because you know, our kids see what 60, 70 different teachers throughout their career as K-12, I mean, so many different educators around. Shifting gears a little bit. I read that you’re a beast at beat ball.

Joe McCormick (12:58):
Yeah. So as mentioned on the sports side, I feel like I am a significantly better blind athlete than I ever was a sighted athlete.

Eric Cross (13:05):
People who are visually impaired, you said, there’s a spectrum. Like you have your peripheral vision. Does that give you a little edge in beat ball?

Joe McCormick (13:11):
No. So the way beat, well, somewhat, but the way that beat works, beat baseball is its full name. It’s an adaptive version of baseball for the vision impaired, but every player wears a blindfold. So it equals the playing field. When it comes to the actual game, often being more sighted is a disadvantage because you’re not used to using your ears, which is a key part of, of beat baseball. The ball is beeping and that’s how we can follow it and play in the process I’ve been playing now for, this would be my 10th season. Our team is pretty good, so we finished as high as second place. Last we finished in third place and I’ve made the offensive all-star team in the process. So it’s a ton of fun, again, a way to kind of get back out there after playing sports. Again, another fear of losing sight is like oh, can I still do the stuff I used to do? And the answer is like, not exactly, but again, flexibly, yes. Like I can’t go and play regular baseball with my friends, but I can play this version and have a ton of fun doing it.

Eric Cross (14:04):
People say when they lose one sense, another one gets enhanced. Has that been your story or your feeling? Is that true?

Joe McCormick (14:10):
I’d say it’s generally true. For me again, because I still have peripheral vision, I definitely not seen like the crazy increase in hearing or something in the process, but definitely I can hear a train off in the distance that most people can’t, type stuff. But it is also interesting to see typically the best defensive players in the league are folks with no vision and they’ve never had vision, because they’re used to listening and using their ears constantly. And so picking up a beeping ball is much easier for them where they can hear it and just stick their hand out and pick it up. And I think with all this too, and I didn’t mention enough in the beginning is like even beat baseball is heavily based on support from sighted people in the process, right? Like as I mentioned upfront, the pitcher and catcher in the sport are both sighted.

Joe McCormick (14:53):
It’d be far too hard if they were also blind and blindfolded, ’cause they’d have no way of hitting the bat. There are teams all over the country, if you are particularly keen in sports, definitely look up if there is a team near you, likely there is. Most teams are always looking for volunteers to help. I’d recommend the national beat baseball association nbba.org and looking to see if there is a local team that you can help out in the process. Sighted people are a key part of that sport. I think it kind of goes back to the theme upfront and the same as when I was back at Harvard, having a lot of support is like, there’s no way to go through these journeys alone. Or if you do, it’s just significantly harder. And so whether that’s friends taking me to class for the first time to find where in this building the classroom, or my girlfriend at the time, now wife, helping me by driving me to places or doing all this stuff. No matter where you are on this journey, I feel like it’s hard to go through it without some form of support.

Joe McCormick (15:41):
I think, for me, even just finding this blind baseball team, the Boston Renegade, when I first lost my sight is ,I had never met someone who was visually impaired before losing my own sight, right? So it’s like, I had no idea what it was even like to be blind, but finding this team pretty quickly then gives you friends with that same experience and a shared experience can make it much easier, but then also helps you to figure out these ideas, right? Like, I can give an idea to someone else and they can give me an idea on how to best find the train or whatever it is. And I think finding people with shared experiences will make, whatever is, whether that’s because it’s also impairment or other disabilities or yeah, It’s just like anything, finding people with common interests and common backgrounds is going to make your life probably a little more successful in the process.

Eric Cross (16:22):
Looking back on your education, are there any teachers that inspired you or who stand out to you as you think back?

Joe McCormick (16:28):
Yeah, and I think, so the drama teacher I mentioned, his name is Mr. Gleason, obviously a strong influence ’cause that pushed me towards the robotics side, which ultimately, at the end day, I’m now a computer or software engineer, a computer science major by trade that I would’ve never been probably into that area at all without the robotics background. So I think that that clue is a big influence and then jumping onto the college side, I started in mechanical engineering, but that turned out to be not as interesting and also harder once losing sight. Like, that is a very, very visual and very hands on thing, which I was super interested in, but not being able to then do those hands on things, once I lost my sight was a much less interesting journey when I can’t be using the AutoCAD machine or can’t be doing all these different things in the process.

Joe McCormick (17:17):
And so from there, I took the intro to computer science course because it was a requirement to be a mechanical engineer and I kind of immediately fell in love with that experience. And a lot of that was thanks to the professor, who, who offered the course, his name’s David Malan. He’s pretty well known amongst the computer science industry. He teaches CS 50, which is the intro CS course at Harvard. And that definitely got me interested in computer science, which now has been my career for the past eight years. And he ended up offering me a teaching assistant position. I then taught that course, and without his influence, wouldn’t have been as interested in the computer science aspects and made that major switch, and then a career switch after that.

Eric Cross (17:56):
You said mechanical engineering was harder being visually impaired because there’s so much that maybe visually and spatially you have to see, but you’re a software engineer and there’s lines of code that you have to be able to go through. And so how do you navigate that? And you’re a successful dude, like you you’re doing this well.

Joe McCormick (18:17):
Yeah. So I’d say there are two main strategies that I use. So one is a technology called a screen reader, and what that software’s job is, it’s named pretty well, it reads your screen, right? So its job is to take everything that’s visibly displayed on the screen and read it to you, for you to then interpret. The other thing I use is a screen magnifier. And so if I want to see something, I will zoom it in substantially for it to be useful for me. So if I’m using my computer, I’m typically zoomed in between eight and 10X zoom. So I’m only seeing whatever 12 and a half to 10% of the screen at a time. And in front of me is a 34-inch monitor. So, here’s not a lot of characters on that screen at once if I do wanna look, but obviously that’d be pretty hard to be able to like physically be scrolling and reading that. So most of the time, if I’m writing code or reading code, it’s all listening to it. When I’m typing, every single key that I press, it tells me. So if I’m typing out Joe, it’s gonna say J O E and then I hit the space bar, say space. And so it sounds both annoying and hard, but after you’ve been doing that for a few months, and now for me, 11 or 12 years later, it’s totally normal to just be like used to listening all day every day to everything that is being shown on my computer. But the other thing is it’s crazy the work that Apple has done for accessibility. All of Apple products are fully accessible and for free. So you don’t need to install extra software, it’s just built in, it’s called Voiceover and Magnifier on those. And so I use an iPhone and that is a total life changer.

Eric Cross (19:49):
So there are tools beyond Snapchat, Instagram,

Joe McCormick (19:52):
Definitely. And if not those tools just make Snapchat, Instagram, more usable as well, especially the bigger companies have put the time in to make them accessible and usable to people who are visually impaired. And for me, especially even like the Google suite of products, which I’m sure a lot of teachers are using, those type of things, Google has made all of those fully accessible.

Eric Cross (20:09):
On that conversation about software. Have you heard of the apps–there’re two of them that I share with teachers in the grad school that I work in. One of them is called, Be My Eyes. And for teachers who are listening, it’s, it’s an app that allows people who are visually impaired and people who are sighted to be paired so that the sighted person could tell, using the camera almost like FaceTime, they can be called, and they’re a volunteer, and the person needs them to identify two different brands of something in the grocery store, could be like cans of soup, you know, chicken noodle versus tomato soup.

Joe McCormick (20:38):
Yep. That’s one I’m a huge fan of, I use that multiple times a week. Yeah. Be My Eyes is obviously great, but requires you both to talk to a human and there’s a little bit of delay. Obviously you have to, to connect to somebody, talk to them in the process, Seeing AI is Microsoft’s, it’s the equivalent of kind of OCR, optical character recognition. But it does even more than that in that, as I mentioned, like, if I want to make a burrito, right, I can go into the fridge and find that burrito, but like, how do I know how long to cook it? I can go into seeing AI and scan it by its barcode. And it will look up the instructions on how I can cook that burrito and just tell me, oh, it’s 90 seconds in the microwave.

Eric Cross (21:13):
The part of the app, one of the features that excites me the most, and kind of the where can we go with this technology, is the scene feature where you take a photo and it identifies what’s in the picture with amazing accuracy.

Joe McCormick (21:25):
Yeah. It’s, it’s beneficial. I think the other thing that’s interesting, it’s kind of same technology, but an extension of that, is for things like, let’s say you’re posting on Facebook, can you just post a picture, or on Instagram, and there’s no caption. It’s like for someone who visually impaired is that’s meaningless, right? Like, well, what did you post a picture of? And so built in to some of these platforms now, and basically all these platforms just like put a caption, describe, put in what’s called alt text, alternative text, where it describes it to someone who’s visually impaired with like, image of a baby or image of a mountain. But now that software can do that for you. And it’s like, well, yeah, maybe I don’t know exactly where they are, but it’s like, oh, they posted a picture of a mountain. They’re probably someone who’s traveling.

Eric Cross (22:03):
And for folks listening. So the apps that we’re talking about are Be My Eyes, that’s the one we talked about where it pairs folks up. But then the other one we’re talking about, which you can run by yourself, is Microsoft Seeing AI.

Joe McCormick (22:14):
There’s a whole bunch of other apps in this space too. Right? We’ve, we’ve named two of them. There’s a whole bunch. There’s one called Blind Square, there’s one I use called Via Opt to Nav, which is a navigation app. And for someone who sighted, it sounds basic, right? Like, oh, you bust Google apps, but for the visually impaired, like that’s, that’s not easy to know where you are, especially in a city where it’s, or there could be three streets all within that a hundred feet, that tells you to turn for it. So it’s like, which one is it? And these apps now, the step beyond these other tools, will give you more information you can use to figure out where you are.

Eric Cross (22:44):
I have one question. Is there any tech that’s out, that’s either in this embryonic stage or ready to be launched, that that excites you?

Joe McCormick (22:52):
Yeah. I mean, for me, I think the obvious one is self-driving cars. I think it’s gonna be a long time before the government would allow a vision impaired person to get behind the wheel of a self-driving car. But for me, that one was always super interesting.

Eric Cross (23:04):
When I get to meet folks like you, I think about, through the lens of my students, many of whom will be the first generation to graduate college and things like that. Is there something that you would encourage someone to focus on? Like for instance, my students code and scratch, and some of them are interested in Python. If you could give advice to like your younger self, like seventh grade, like to develop a skill, is there like a route or something to explore that you would, you know, if you had like a nephew or somebody who’s like, I wanna do what you do, like, what would you tell them to like start exploring?

Joe McCormick (23:29):
I mean, I think both are awesome. Like scratch, was the first thing they teach in the intro CS course at Harvard. Right? Like that’s how they weed out the students at first, it’s like, if you don’t like Scratch, you’re not gonna like actually writing the code. So, I think Scratch is great. Python’s great. Computer science is super lucrative. I don’t see a world where it’s not super lucrative in the future still. Like, we are still at a huge world where there are way more job opportunities than there are people to fill them. It is something though that I wouldn’t say is for everybody. Don’t force it because there’s an eventual path to money there because I think, obviously like that’s not gonna be happiness at the end of the day. I think especially as a seventh grader, it’s gonna feel, if you’re just like forced to do this thing, and it’s not interesting to you, that’s probably gonna repel you and push you away from that thing forever. Where it’s like, yeah, maybe seventh grade, isn’t the right time. Maybe you try again in ninth grade, you try again, 11th grade. And I didn’t write a line of code before 10th grade of high school, and it was totally fine, I was super, super successful. And the code I was writing in 10th grade and high school was not anywhere near good codes. I really didn’t write much code until sophomore in college.

Eric Cross (24:32):
What you said is very validating because from my perspective, it’s wanting to create opportunities for students to practice skills or be exposed to things that could be useful later. You know, so kind of like you want to give them, I guess, breadth, especially at the younger age you wanna give them like access and exposure to as much as possible and go, hey, these are all different things. And so Scratch and Python are things that I expose my students to, and, and I appreciate you saying that those are good ones, because then I feel like I’m at least choosing the right technologies to let them try out. In addition to all the other things that we do.

Joe McCormick (25:03):
But I think with all this stuff too, it’s like finding activities that are interesting to them within those frameworks. Like, I was writing the Python code that I did last year. As a seventh grader, I’d have no interest. It wouldn’t make any sense. Like, it’s, it’s not interesting to me, but if I’m using Python to build something that I could actually use as a seventh grader, then it’s gonna be much more interesting. My first Scratch program I ever wrote was air hockey. I was 18 years old and it was fun. But like the first Python code I wrote, as a senior in college, was doing AI as machine learning to figure out Netflix ratings of movies. Super interesting as a 20-year-old, but as a seventh grader, could not care less about that. But with all these tools, you can use them in many different ways.

Joe McCormick (25:43):
So trying to find the way that you take that tool and it best connects with the seventh grade minds. And I think kids are just much more tech-friendly now, where like you could use Python to build an Instagram clone or something. So then it gets more interesting, because they can connect with it. But for me as a seventh grader, when tech was not as big a thing, like, I don’t know what I would’ve been able to build that would’ve been as interesting to me. I think games would’ve been it, and trying to build something that I could play with. But for me, I see satisfaction on a day-to-day basis when I see people using what I’ve built. And I think even that as a kid, I had a similar satisfaction of like, when people get joy out of what you are doing or, again that’s kind of that shared community of like, oh, this is fun. That will be interesting. So kids being able to build games that their other friends could use, I feel like is probably gonna make that feel rewarding and keep that like cycle of satisfaction going for years to come,

Eric Cross (26:30):
No, you nailed it. They, they start off by animating their name. And thankfully Google has a whole curriculum called CS first where it’s all kind of like canned lessons. So teachers who aren’t computer science teachers have no background can take this, there’s videos, multiple languages, and they can animate their name, they can build a video game, they can tell a story and then they learn step by step, how to use all of the different tools and Scratch to kind of make what they’re trying to do. And then I have the students beta test, and this week we brought in some robots and they’re coding these robots that have these ultrasonic sensors and all these different things on them. We just started that. But you’re absolutely right, the embedding it in a real context, that’s engaging and interesting as opposed to like learning it in the abstract. Like, why am I doing this? It’s huge.

Joe McCormick (27:17):
Yeah. I think the robots is a big thing. I think there’s something about switching from the technical world to the real world that like, even today, as an adult, I get more, I mean, obviously I write software every single day, but when the software starts to do stuff that pings outside of itself, or like if the software sends me an email, it’s so much more interesting, cause it now is like switched mediums or something. And I know in college, I got to do a class where we built a smart light switch where you could text and it would turn the lights on. And it’s like the actual code required there is not that complex, but the fact that it now gets into the real physical world and I could control the light in my room was just like mind-blowing to me and excitement.

Eric Cross (27:54):
That’s awesome here. I could tell that you’re passionate about it and that you’re one of those people who got into it because of just a genuine interest and love for it. So, your story and your perspective and your outlook on the life is just incredibly inspiring and empowering. I know as I was listening to you and just thinking about how you persevered through things and it really just, also this heart of an athlete, like overcoming adversity, I appreciate you sharing your story. Stories like this help empower teachers to help their students have better access, to help their students have an example of someone who was able to just start knocking down walls, being someone who kind of created a pathway for yourself to be able to succeed. And I just wanna thank you for being here.

Joe McCormick (28:41):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Eric Cross (28:44):
Thanks so much for joining me and Joe today. And now we want to hear more about you. If you have any great lessons or ways to keep student engagement high, please email us@stemamplifycom.wpengine.com. That’s STEM amplifycom.wpengine.com and make sure to click, subscribe wherever you listen to podcast until next time.

Valeria Rodriguez (00:00):

There’s so many things that drawing to me makes an essential connection to. It tells me no matter what, I can continue placing lines on my paper and creating the image I want. Some people will say they messed up the drawing. You know what? They gave it character.

Eric Cross (00:19):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Valeria Rodriguez. Valeria is a science educator, instructional technologist, and illustrator, who is currently part of a steam team where she teaches third through fifth graders in Miami, Florida. Valeria has presented and led workshops at education conferences like NSTA, ISTI, and SXSWEdu. In this episode, we discuss how she uses real-world projects to make lessons more meaningful, and why teaching students how to sketchnote increases their conceptual understanding in science. I hope you enjoy this pun-filled conversation with Valeria Rodriguez.

New Speaker (00:58):

Now you’re in Miami and you have a biology background. We’re like kindred spirits. Like we do the same thing. I teach biology here in San Diego at a middle school called Albert Einstein Academy. So I’m in a seventh grade classroom teaching life science.

Valeria Rodriguez (01:11):

That’s so cool. That’s how I started.

Eric Cross (01:13):

Is it?

Valeria Rodriguez (01:13):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I started teaching middle school science for seven years, doing life science in my biology background.

Eric Cross (01:20):

How’d you get started? Like where did you kind of begin?

Valeria Rodriguez (01:22):

Well, I went to UF for undergrad as a runner, and I thought I was gonna go to the Olympics, but you know, running in college is hard. And you quickly like realize a path as a full-time athlete is really hard. And one of the days that I was having one of those, like “come Jesus moments” of what am I gonna do with my life, I walked by a sign that said life is calling. And I’m like, okay, <laugh>

Eric Cross (01:52):

You literally had a sign.

Valeria Rodriguez (01:53):

There was a sign. So I was like, I’m reading the sign. I’m following the arrows. And it was for the Peace Corps. And so I went to this meeting and everything that I’ve ever done student government, athletics school education, my backgroundmy family’s from Columbia–everything in that meeting came together and they’re like, we need all these skills. And I’m like, I have those. Those are my skills. And they’re like every Peace Corps volunteer teaches. And so I went in as an agriculture volunteer to Panama because of my major and my background in biology. And while I was in the Peace Corps doing the work, I was teaching at the local school. And I realized that the most sustainable way to create any change is through education. When I came back, I was like, well, what do you do if your first job in the world is in the Peace Corps? Like my background was, you know, managing a machete in a field and teaching second through eighth grade in one classroom, on a chalkboard, you know, in English and in Spanish, while teaching the teacher and the students. So I found that going into teaching allowed me to put some of those skills, that wide array of skills that I had collected until that moment, into practice. And it allowed me to do the arts, do the running, do the science, do the connecting with the community in one place here in the states.

Eric Cross (03:34):

I don’t know if I’m just romanticizing, but you were in Panama and you were doing this amazing teaching. I don’t know. Do you compare it to teaching now in the classroom? Is there anything that ever like makes you wish that you were kind of in that environment again? Or are you kind of, do you like the more kind of technology side of things?

Valeria Rodriguez (03:48):

I tell my students all the time that I miss it, because when I was in Panama, I was in Licencia. They looked at me like this, all knowing being. If they couldn’t come to class because the kids literally had to work, they would bring me their assignment, like run it to me and then run back to their parents. Like, “I had to turn it in, but I have to go to work.” And I’m like, oh my gosh. And like here, sometimes I feel like, you know, I have to negotiate and convince my students to want to give me their work. And maybe it’s because we take a lot of things for granted. I mean, I didn’t have running water in my community. Here, you know, we have everything. I miss how we appreciated — like, my parents would send suitcases of materials for me to hand out to my students, like color and stuff, notebooks, things like that — and the kids would like, hold that notebook, like pristine and here sometimes my students aren’t as careful with materials. And I’m like, why are you breaking the crayon box? <Laugh>

Eric Cross (04:54):

I’m thinking about that. Just even just bringing pens and crayons and how that’s valued. And then a culture that’s built around esteeming teachers, and you’re this essential member of the community — and you feel that. It’s palpable.

Valeria Rodriguez (05:08):

Yeah. And here, sometimes I ask students like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And you get all sorts of answers, but in my community, it’s gonna sound funny, but they were like, we wanna be a teacher. Like, that means that we would know a lot of stuff and they would put their hair up in a bun, ‘cause I always have it in a bun, and they would write stuff when they were playing and they would act me out <laugh> and I’m like, do I, do I do that? <Laugh> I genuinely got a very rich experience in the time that I was there. And what I learned the most was how to try to not do as much, it’s like a lesson that I’m still trying to learn because like I’m here with the U.S. Mentality of go, go, go.

Valeria Rodriguez (05:58):

And they’re like, but we already did, you know, two things like now we stop. And I’m like, but, but why? And they’re like, you can do that tomorrow. And I’m like, but no, like we’re gonna run out of time. For me. It was a lot of struggle of like slow down. And as a teacher, I feel like I’m always like on the treadmill at a thousand speed. And sometimes I have to tell myself like slow down, be in this moment, like a parent texted me today that her daughter was walking with her dad and said, daddy, let’s talk about the layers of the soil. And I was like, I need to stop right now and acknowledge that this happened. She’s in third grade and she’s asking her dad, you know, she could ask him about anything, and she’s asking him about soil. That’s essential for everything. And we don’t even think about soil here. Like my community had tons of erosion and every year there were less and less crops being able to be produced. We’re not talking about that here. And yet, my student asked her dad here in Miami, <laugh> about soil. And that conversation happened because of our class.

Eric Cross (07:03):

And you allowed yourself to be present and experience and feel that that communication came to you.

Valeria Rodriguez (07:09):

Yeah. We put so much stuff out there and we don’t know where it lands. If it lands on dirt or soil, <laugh>

Eric Cross (07:16):

There you go. I like it. Yeah. Bringing it back. But you’re, I think you’re what you’re saying. Resonates with a lot of educators that’ll be listening to this is that there’s so much that you do. And there’s even times when we do get the feedback, there might be a letter or a card or something, but like, to your point, like we look to the next thing instead of stopping, being present and allowing yourself to absorb it. I think I need to put that up on my, like on my wall, like this, just be present. Now you came back and then you went into the classroom here and you started off teaching science.

Valeria Rodriguez (07:46):

I didn’t go straight into the classroom. I knew that I wanted to continue teaching. But I wasn’t back here in Miami. When I moved back, I moved to Austin. And I ended up getting married and there, I started teaching Spanish as a second language like corporate classes. And I was kind of like tiptoeing around, like, do you dive into education? ‘Cause The idea of a teacher here is very different than the teacher idea that I had while in the peace Corps. So he, a lot of people were like, you can do so many things. Why would you teach? And I was like insulted <laugh>. I was like, wait, what do you mean? Like even to this day, I’ve started a blog post, maybe 20 times with that statement because people all the time are like, you’re so talented. Why do you teach? And it drives me crazy because it makes me feel like they’re looking down on my choice <laugh> but I came to terms with it that it’s just like a societal thing. Cause of that quote, like those who can’t do teach. And I was like, let me let this go.

Eric Cross (09:01):

I find though that educators who come in as a second career, come in with a, a, a variety of skill sets that I, I think you can only get when you’re outside of academia. I mean, you can, you can develop them, you know, going kind of K12 education college and then into the classroom. But those soft skills, the business skills, a lot of those things you really develop. And it’s funny ‘cause your, your story almost sounds like some of the people that I know that work in big tech firms, they have this eclectic story and then now they’re, you know, working for Google or Facebook or something, but that actually was a as set to them because they are able to see the world through multiple perspectives. And I’m hearing kind of a distinguish between art of teaching and the science of teaching. Like you had the, maybe the art connecting ideas, these things, and then the science, like the quote unquote like formal teaching. Okay. That had to get built on later. Like am I hearing that right?

Valeria Rodriguez (09:55):

Yeah. The that’s what rocks I’m teaching the rock cycle right now. So I’m, I’m under a lot of heat and pressure <laugh>

Eric Cross (10:02):

We got the funds, we got the funds rolling. All right. All right. So bringing in the, so the, the art side or the science side we have, and then we just have this amazing illustrator. Now you mentioned your website and we’re gonna post it somewhere, but just so we have it here to, and you say, what is your website where all your majors and sketch notes can be found,

Valeria Rodriguez (10:21):

Www dot Valia, sketches.com.

Eric Cross (10:23):

Okay. So folks that are listening, if you wanna check out the art, there’s some awesome stuff on there, as well as Twitter and Instagram. And we’ll make sure we have it handles in the, the bio of the podcast and the notes. Your art’s amazing. I looked, I checked it. I saw inauguration. I saw astronauts. I saw all kinds of different things. How do you use that in the classroom

Valeria Rodriguez (10:45):

To draw connections? The ones? So what I do is I airplay my iPad onto the board. And sometimes as I’m talking, I’ll draw things, draw things I’m saying, or assignments I’ll sketch out different ideas, or maybe like the schedule I’ll have an icon of some sort that represents things. I use it for everything and anything, because just the way that I tell my students that science is everywhere. I, we don’t realize how programmed we are to use images to for, for information they’re in the street. Bathroom signs, we see the zoom little link, like the image, the icon of zoom. And we know that it’s a call the apps. You know, our phone doesn’t have the words for everything that we’re opening. We just have a list of images that represent information. So we’re programs for this. And all I’m doing is showing my students how we’re programmed for it because we’re so used to seeing images, to represent things that we’re taking it for granted again.

Valeria Rodriguez (12:03):

And sometimes my students will like, I’ll write something and I ask them, make your own visual vocabulary. So I give them the word of the definition for every unit, the younger ones, I give them the definition they have to plug in the word and an image, the older ones, I give them the word they have to plug in the definition and an image. But I don’t tell them what to draw because they need to create an image that will help them to remember the definition. Not me. I tell them, I wrote the list. I know the words, you’re the one that needs to think of something that’s going to help you to remember this. You need to draw a connection to this information. Like I use it and I mess up all the time. And I, I scratch things out because I feel that my students or the student that I’ve had in general are risk averse.

Valeria Rodriguez (12:57):

They don’t want to make mistakes. And drawing is one of those things that it taught me that it’s okay to make mistakes. Like people won’t buy commit to buying houses or they won’t commit to things because they’re gonna make a, I’m like, you can sell the house. You can move again. I mean, I’ve lived in a lot of cities. I’ve been married, divorce, gone out with people. It’s worked out it hasn’t you know, there’s, there’s so many things that drawing to me makes an essential connection to <affirmative> that it tells me no matter what I can continue placing lines on my paper and creating the image I want. And if a line doesn’t necessarily go in the direction, I want it to, I can continue shaping it so that the overall image is in the direction I want. And I can look past those line here and there that some people will say they messed up the drawing. You know what? They gave it character. I, I cycle and I have scars everywhere. They give me character and I keep writing. The overall image in my head is I’m a cyclist, not I’m banged up. <Laugh>

Eric Cross (14:14):

I feel like there’s so much to mind in what you just said. This was like a mini-Ted talk. And I couldn’t write fast enough because there were so many gems of the things that you said, but let me say something worse. And this is I’m gonna be surface with this because, and it’s your fault because you got me thinking in puns and you said, take it for granted. And I said, take it for granted because you’re talking about the rock cycle. So that’s what I heard way back. Anyways, you have your students creating what, but it’s low tech, which is really cool because a lot of times we think of creating content and it’s kind of high tech, but they’re creating something. And this is for us, like as biology folks, like you’re using kind of like this neuroscience that exists about students, creating an art to help them learn.

Eric Cross (14:55):

And this is something that I, I feel gets missed a lot in. When we talk about the quote unquote, the formal teacher training is the element of how creating an art can actually lead to improved learning in the classroom. It’s something you have to go to like a conference to kind of go and see or something, but it’s not as, it’s not as pervasive everywhere. And that thing about risk averse. I feel like I, you spoke to my own life. What I see ‘cause with my own seventh graders, I see the same fear or anxiety when I ask them to draw. As I do, when I ask them to give me a hypothesis about a phenomenon that I’m gonna teach and I say, it’s okay to be wrong, but I see them drift to the Chromebook and want to Google it. You know what you just said about just try it and you can always change and giving character, I feel like is just a great message for everybody to hear

Valeria Rodriguez (15:48):

Today. Students made fossil, right? ‘Cause They’re learning about rocks and we made using plaster, but then I put the green screen up and not only did they make it and they excavated them, but then we put it on the green screen. And they’re like all of a sudden at a dig site,

Eric Cross (16:04):

What I’m seeing right now for those of you who are listening is, is students who are on, is this on IMO?

Valeria Rodriguez (16:10):

This is on we video

Eric Cross (16:12):

Video and they’re holding up fossils that they made. But in the background, because there was a green screen, there’s an overlay of like a, a rock dig site. So the students legitimately look like they’re paleontologists or something somewhere.

Valeria Rodriguez (16:24):

Exactly. And so it’s, it’s not just creating lines, right? The sketching transfers to so much be because even the want, not wanting to make a mistake with their fossil. One of the kids today, when he took off the, the Plato, ‘cause we put the Plato at the base. Then we put in either a shell or some sort of artifact that they were going to fossilize. And then we put in the plaster when he took off the Plato, a piece broke off and everybody’s like, I can’t believe you broke your fossil. And I’m like, not the first. Okay. Do you know how many of these guys and girls have been out there? And all of a sudden they find a dinosaur bone and they’re walking and they fall. And this fossil that took billions of years is all of a sudden broken. I’m like this selfie, the original selfies, these animals died in commitment to their selfies.

Valeria Rodriguez (17:19):

And here you are dropping the bone. So they were all laughing, but it was to go away from the fact that, oh my God, you broke it. You made a mistake. You drew the wrong line. You asked the wrong question. Like no big deal. Keep digging, shout out to the teachers that try doing the projects that they have. They don’t feel completely comfortable with or you know, that they take risks doing. Because even though in theory, it’s like suggested and schools want that or communities want that when it comes down to it, people also expect us to do things at work. But part of our job is also taking risks. Like we did a tethered weather balloon launch the other day because we couldn’t get approval to release the weather balloon in the atmosphere since we’re near an airport. And it was too short of a time.

Valeria Rodriguez (18:14):

And I remember a parent said, oh, you’re not releasing the balloon. And I was like, well, this is a lot of work too. <Laugh> we, you know, we’re, we’re doing the tethered launch. This is a hard project. So the other day when I heard that comment, like I went back to my class and I was like, you know what? I took a risk to do this project. I could have played it safe with a handout of a weather balloon <laugh> or you know, a YouTube video. It’s it’s the, the fact that we’re continuing to push. And so I wanna like really thank the teachers that keep trying to do the hard things that aren’t like tried and tested because it’s scary. Yeah.

Eric Cross (18:57):

Yeah. There aren’t a lot of opportunities for them to have adults that they see in positions of authority or that they respect or admire model failure. And I don’t mean failure in the, like the negative pejorative sense, but like things just not working out and then seeing how you respond to it, ‘cause you’re modeling, taking a risk. But like with real stakes, it’s authentic. I had students swab the campus and we put it in auger dishes and Petri sealed it up and then let it grow room temperature, but we kept it you know, cool enough at 75 degrees. So it wouldn’t be able to survive any, anything pathogenic. And then students, you know, I took pictures of them and then showed them the results. So the students never interacted with it and some things grew and some things didn’t, it was mostly, you know, fungi and some bacteria, but I showed them like, how come mine didn’t grow? And I was like, well, you know, it could have been how we swabbed. It could have been some things don’t grow the temperature, we kept it at, but some of the experiments didn’t yield the cool results. And that was okay. But I front loaded the expectation so that if everything did go great, sweet, but managing expectation, I found really helps to mitigate the pressure.

Valeria Rodriguez (20:01):

Yeah. Well another project that we’ve participated in is growing beyond earth where we’re planting seeds that contribute to like a huge set of data for cultivars that are being considered for growth on the international space station. And my students are like, well, you know, we just have six little pots, like what is this? And I’m like, yeah, we have two little seeds in each of these pots. And we are one data set in like hundreds of data sets that they’re collecting. But we are contributing two research on the international space station. You don’t have to be the next bill gates or the next, you know, Steve jobs. Like everyone thinks they’re gonna be the next big thing. Like you can also be a seed. That’s part of a really big project and that is okay. Like everyone can’t be the next big thing

Eric Cross (20:48):

And the other. And the other thing, I think what Gladwell talks about this in outliers and there’s another book called bounce, but a lot of the people that we see is successful or famous, we don’t realize that their background and their exposure to things was one of the things that led them there, both jobs and gates had access, you know, gates had access at, at the university of Washington to like one of the first computers and then jobs at, at Hewlett Packard. The story go goes on and on, but we don’t see the lineage of some of these people and where they come from. We just see the end result. You just see LeBron James winning a championship or something. We just want the, the end result the, the glory, but not the sweat that it takes to get there. They don’t, we don’t really see that as much, which leads me to like the next thing I wanted to ask you is how do you, and I kind of saw it just now, but how do you engage your kids in the classroom?

Valeria Rodriguez (21:36):

Well, I think I’m funny. Some of them don’t do

Eric Cross (21:38):

They like the puns

Valeria Rodriguez (21:39):

<Laugh> some of them do. And some of them don’t get them. They get them later. And I see when they get it, I like to engage them by bringing in real people, real examples of things, real research when possible. Right. I can’t put them in a real dig site. So the green screen helps me do that. But one of my students yesterday, other day before was like, you have such cool friends because I’ll say, oh, one of my friends does blah, blah, blah. Or, or, oh, when we go to Kennedy space center, we’re gonna, you know, talk to one of my friends. Who’s doing research on, you know, chilies in space and they’re like, wow, your friends are so cool. And I took that moment to tell them, be mindful of the people that you collect as friends in your life, like make good choices, surround yourself with awesome people, people so that you can share ideas. Like you connect with friends who you inspire you to do more. I try to engage them by giving them examples of things that people around me are doing that connect to what we’re doing. Do

Eric Cross (22:43):

You, do you explicitly or intentionally teach soft skills or is it just something that you just kind of organically do natural or are you mindful about making sure that you’re doing that

Valeria Rodriguez (22:52):

A hundred percent? You have to be explicit about it with amplify? Actually, we, we did a poster for incorporating social, emotional skills and other soft skills into the classroom because sometimes we just like other things like writing and, and reading, you know, we silo all these things in education and the school counselor, can’t be the one to deal with everything. You know, you have to deal with things as they surface. And sometimes my kids ha are frustrated because I ask them to think I don’t have yes or no answers. I have, you know, we are gonna launch a high altitude weather balloon. We don’t know how high it’s gonna go. We don’t know what’s gonna happen. We don’t, we don’t know if we’re gonna find it when the <laugh>, when the balloon bursts and it lands in the ocean, are we gonna find it? Is the GPS tracker gonna work?

Valeria Rodriguez (23:47):

Are we gonna lose all that money? I don’t know, but we have to do all the steps and find out. But with kids, they don’t have the skills yet. And I can’t wait for the counselor to come in and talk about handle the frustration that they’re feeling over. Not knowing the correct question to ask, because by the time they go meet with her, the moments pass, I have to stop and say, Hey, like check in with, with what you’re doing. It’s okay to be frustrated. You can’t take it out on a classmate. You can’t take it out on me.

Eric Cross (24:14):

So you were, you, you were intentional about teaching these skills to your students and you had the relationship. So it makes sense that you were the one to bring it across ‘cause you see them more than anybody does. You know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve imagined. Teaching is for a long time. It’s been okay, you’re the science content expert. You’re the English expert, but so much as teaching evolves, there are these skills or like EQ emotional intelligence that you kind of have to have kind of coming in. Because like those moments, like no having the presence of mind to stop and why a young person through identifying how they feel, why, where it came from. Those aren’t always covered in those aren’t really covered in your methods classes when you’re in college, getting your, your degree or something. Now when you’re you’re sketch noting and for teachers who are, or one, could you just maybe give like a brief explanation of sketch, noting for somebody who may not be familiar with it, like how I was sketch any different than just drawing a picture randomly or something.

Valeria Rodriguez (25:10):

Okay. So you’re creating visual summaries. You’re using text and images combined in different ways to take notes. And before you know how we had like these shorthand things that the squiggly meant an indent and something else meant something else. And we had these lists of things when they would edit our papers, that represented things. It’s kind of like that for your brain. So you’re making a list of maybe icons or small sketches that represent things for you. So as you’re taking notes, you hear things. And when people talk now and they, they say, you know, I’m on the fence about this. Like I literally see a fence. And when they’re talking, I write the note, it’s almost like a T toe with pointy tops and I put a stick figure on top of it. And so later when I look at it, I think, oh, that’s right. My friend is on the fence about that decision

Eric Cross (26:08):

For a new teacher or even a, a, a experienced teacher. That’s interested in sketch noting, where, where would you recommend? They start like the structurize? Like, do you give creative freedom? Are they doing this paper and pencil vocabulary words? Are they up? Like, what are some just kind of maybe three basic things to kind of get started for someone who was just curious about it.

Valeria Rodriguez (26:29):

So it has to be simple because if it requires a lot of energy to go in, then you’re gonna be more hesitant to do it. For example, I wouldn’t start summarizing a video because it’s moving really fast or a live presentation is really hard. So with students, I would start with here’s a paragraph, make a visual summary of it, or here’s a vocabulary list, make an image to represent each word. Then you would move into, well, you know, here’s a unit summarize the three main topics in unit. Then you can move onto like a little YouTube video. That’s like 10 minutes a Ted talk, make a visual summary of the Ted talk because they can pause it.

Eric Cross (27:11):

Mm. Okay.

Valeria Rodriguez (27:13):

The hardest thing is live presentations, ‘cause in conversations you can say, oh, can you say that again? Sketch, noting. You start seeing how people organize or don’t their thoughts when they speak. Because when you start writing things down and all the information is about one thing and then like two blue ORPS about something else. You’re like, wow, that was really unbalanced. So then when you start teaching, you tell them what you’re gonna tell them, you tell them and then you tell them what you told them. So they can check that they put the notes in the right places and you tell them what you’re gonna tell. So they can prep the pathway that they’re gonna set up their notes and I have to be explicit. And I have to say like, I’m gonna talk about the rock cycle. So if I were you, I would put, you know, these four boxes. Oh, but there’s three types of rocks. See? I’m like, yeah, but magma. So let’s put it in the cycle, you know? And, and then I’m like, if I were you, I would put an arrow from here to here because this is how, you know, after erosion and then, you know, heat and pressure. But then it connects like this. So the arrows are gonna help me to remember the directions

Eric Cross (28:13):

As we wind down. There’s there’s one question I wanna ask you there, you are bringing together this science, the, the art, the social, emotional learning, the relationships with your students outside content, like there’s so many different things that you bring in the classroom that is clearly gonna make you a memorable educator for your kids. It just, it’s just, I’m just listening to your learning environment. And it’s so rich who is one teacher that really expired you. So

Valeria Rodriguez (28:38):

There’s a few people that stand out overall. I had very encouraging teachers. I had that one teacher that didn’t like my drawing <laugh> she also stands out <laugh>

Eric Cross (28:49):

We have those too.

Valeria Rodriguez (28:49):

Yeah. So I have colleagues that stand out to me that inspire me every day to like keep trying. And then I had a teacher in high school who I actually work with her daughter now at the school that I work at. And I didn’t even know her mom would make us write almost the whole class. And it was world history. And I remember hearing her say when she was talking about the Roman empire that it fell because it reached more than it can grab. So it kept extending too far out. And I heard that, like I think about, yes, I can keep reaching for things in education and reaching for things in my classroom. But I have to come back to like, what can I hold? I don’t wanna reach further than what I can hold. And yes, I have to believe in myself. And I tell my students to believe in themselves,

Eric Cross (29:38):

I’m in this, I’m in this sketch noting mindset. Because when you said what Ms. Brown shared with you, I thought of a hand reaching out, but then things kind of slipping through it. And I another hand with like a fist right next to it. So even in our conversation here last hour, I I’m thinking in pictures now. And so I’m like, if I can do it, they can do it. Like if you know, ‘cause I am just not the person who spends a lot of time committing to draw. Because a lot of times when I was that student who tried to draw and we get frustrated and look around and now I feel like this is, I wanna try this again. I wanna share this with my students and encourage them. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I look forward to continuing to see the sketch notes that you do. And maybe I’ll, I’ll show you one of mine. Like eventually I don’t know if you can see that there that’s my stick figures. Those of you who are listening right now, I drew, I was drawing stick figures and taking notes while Blair was dropping all of this, these like gems and wisdom in here. So

Valeria Rodriguez (30:31):

Maybe we can do a challenge that once people hear this podcast, they can tag us somehow in the sketch note that they create I’m in. So we see what they a take from it. Because that’s the other thing about sketch noting, you think you’re emphasizing something and all of a sudden people are walking away with something else that resonated to them. And you’re like, wow. And here I was thinking that this was what we were talking about. And this is what really jumped out at them.

Eric Cross (30:57):

Your kids are lucky that you’re in front of them, not just because of how you teach, but how you access all of these different parts of their creativity and their thinking and apply, integrate all of these soft skills and social, emotional skills and just life skills and your experience connecting them to the outside world. They, and like you said, and how we started, you know, where you started in Panama, the students realized what you represent and what you meant to them. And I feel like your students, when they get older, they may not realize it in the time, but as they get older and reflect back, they’ll be telling stories about you. So yeah. Thanks for making time and thanks for being here.

Valeria Rodriguez (31:34):

Well thank you too, ‘cause I know you’re in the classroom and making time to do other things outside the classroom. Isn’t always easy, but it’s what keeps us going in different ways.

Eric Cross (31:49):

Thanks so much for joining me in Valer today. We wanna hear more about you. If you have any great lessons or ways to keep student engagement high, please email us@stemamplifycom.wpengine.com. That’s TM five.com. Make sure to click, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and join our brand new Facebook group science connections, the community for some extra content.

Ricky Mason (00:00):

I feel like comfort is where dreams go to die. And I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up, chasing them.

Eric Cross (00:08):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Ricky Mason. Ricky is an engineer whose career included lead roles at the Department of Defense, NASA, and the CIA. Ricky transitioned to education as an adjunct faculty at the University of Kentucky. And while there, he founded BrainSTEM, an edtech company that developed a 3D virtual reality metaverse for STEM education. Today, BrainSTEM serves public school districts, private schools, and nonprofits. And in this episode, we discuss what led Ricky to creating BrainSTEM Metaversity, and how he’s using the metaverse to transform STEM learning for students. And now please enjoy my conversation with Ricky Mason. How did you, so like maybe going back doing your origin story, maybe you can talk about it, but brother, you don’t sleep. Talk about keep making moves, your hashtag, I mean, I was looking at your LinkedIn profiles, looking at your details. You get after it. I was getting tired just reading it. I was like John Hopkins, electrical engineering, real estate, starting companies. You must have that gene where it’s like four hours of sleep and then you’re like, ready to go.

Ricky Mason (01:19):

Yeah, man. My mom told me if I didn’t stay busy, then I’m in trouble. So when I was about 14, she told me that. I said, well, Mama, I guess I’m gonna stay busy then. And yeah, man, that’s just been my life. I feel like if I don’t keep making moves, then I’m in trouble. So, feel like comfort is where dreams go to die and I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up chasing them.

Eric Cross (01:44):

I feel like a kindred spirit with you. So, were you always interested in STEM like, was there something like a moment or a year where you remember you were like, this is my jam. This is what I’m gonna get into.

Ricky Mason (01:57):

Yeah, man. When it really clicked for me was in the fifth grade. I was at a school assembly and an IBM engineer came in and he brought a robot and he programmed it with punch cards right on the stage. And I got the opportunity to come up andyou know, put one of the punch cards in the robot to program it. And I asked him, I’m like, what is your job? He said, I’m a robotics engineer. And I went home right after that assembly and I said, Mom, that’s what I wanna do, become a robotics engineer. And my mom would take me to the libraries. Well, I felt like I was getting outta bible study on Wednesdays by going to the library. So I went there and I started researching robots.

Ricky Mason (02:39):

And at the time the robots that were popular were all being sent to space. And it was the spiritless. It was being sent to Mars. And I said, Mom, well, I guess I gotta become an astronaut if I’m gonna be a robotics engineer. And that’s kind of what set me out on that dream. And my mom started trying to find outlets for me to get involved in STEM, but it was really tough to find those outlets, you know, especially in that fifth to eighth grade range here in Kentucky. So that was kind of where it started for me man, when I knew that yeah, engineering is what I wanna do.

Eric Cross (03:14):

What does an electrical engineer do? I imagine there’s different types of specialties, but like, was there something that you specialize in that you focused on or was it, is it just kind of like a generalist field?

Ricky Mason (03:23):

Yeah, so I would say, yeah, man, it’s a huge field. So you could be doing anything from, you know, power, like power coming into your house. So those large power systems all the way down to nanotechnology and microchips. I like to tell people I’m a real full stack engineer, so my wheelhouse is kind of from the PCD, the little green computer chips, all the way to the cloud. Over my career, I’ve had some pretty cool jobs. One of those things was I was a test engineer for the army. So I got to test weapons up at Aberdeen Proving Ground for the Army. So I got to drive those weapons and test them before they went to theater there. After that,I worked at United Launch Alliance down at Cape Canaveral where I launched five rockets.

Ricky Mason (04:07):

So I was a part of the electrical ground systems team there where we were responsible for all of the electrical systems on the rocket while it was on the pad. Somonitoring the temperature of the rocket, the fuel, the entire system for safety while it was on that pad. And then finally I worked at the CIA as a computer engineer building data centers and as a data center architect for some of our remote systems and virtualizing our systems. So kind of had a broad spectrum of things there. And then finally coming back to the University of Kentucky as a research engineer and faculty. I developed drone technology for monitoring crops. So flying drones over crops with LIDAR, just like self-driving cars with high-definition cameras to pull in data about those crops, to help farmers determine about pesticides fertilizers, and the overall health of their crops from a remote location.

Eric Cross (05:10):

It’s so neat to hear you talk about it and to see how this is all built up to what you do now with BrainSTEM. How would you explain what BrainSTEM is? I know that’s your, that’s kind of your baby right now and what you’ve been working on a few years.

Ricky Mason (05:23):

Yeah, man, we started BrainSTEM in 2019 officially, but I would say BrainSTEM has been almost 10 years in coming. While I was in undergrad, I played football at the University of Kentucky. But I got hurt going into my sophomore year and that kind of shattered my dreams of football. And that’s when I really got back into engineering. One of my professors asked me to come to a robotics competition and I saw these third graders and sixth graders programming robots. And I’m like, oh my God, they’re programming robots! And I had no idea how to code or what to do with these things. And where was this a when I was a kid? And so I immediately bought one of those robots and taught myself how to program it <laugh> and then we started a robotics team in Lexington,there at a church.

Ricky Mason (06:10):

And we got a sponsorship from Lexmark to start that team. And that was kind of my first leap into STEM and teaching STEM and creating programs for students in STEM. I did that in undergrad and like I said, fast forward 10 years later, I’m teaching at the University of Kentucky and we’re struggling to recruit STEM students. Why aren’t students going into STEM? I hear too many adults tell me, oh man, I wish I would’ve done engineering, or I started out in engineering, but I left engineering or I wish I could go back to school for engineering or learn to code. And I’m like, I asked them like, why didn’t you do this? What happened? And often it’s like, it was the math. It was, oh, I didn’t get into it until I was in college. And I’m like, well, that’s the key.

Ricky Mason (06:52):

I knew I wanted to do this in the fifth grade. And I started with a plan in the fifth grade to achieve these goals and dreams. And I started doing that research and realizing that the same problem existed that I had. There was no outlet for kids to get involved in STEM, and so many kids have an affinity for STEM an early age. So we started BrainSTEM to provide access to STEM education and exposure STEM careers, STEM professionals, and just to STEM fields as a whole, because too often kids may know about the term, engineer, or the term, scientists, but they don’t really know what those people do or have a strong connection with the field or have any hands-on projects that they kind of done around those things or met anyone like me.

Ricky Mason (07:42):

I didn’t meet an engineer until I was in college. So that has really been impactful for some of the students that we’ve been able to touch. I had a family reach out to me. They moved to Lexington from California and they were like, man, I really want my ninth-grade son to get involved in engineering. So we started a weekend program with that one student and it went amazing. Like we competed in science fairs, we applied for different college programs and things like that. So it became an entire like mentorship program. And I’m proud to say that a year ago, he actually graduated with his bachelor’s in electrical engineering from your side of town, UCSB. It was just awesome to actually see this come full circle. And that’s kind of one of the first things that we did before we actually formalized as BrainSTEM University.

Eric Cross (08:34):

What will be like your elevator pitch for a teacher? If you were gonna say, this is what BrainSTEM does. I have the luxury of going through it on the site, but since we’re on a podcast, how would you kind of pitch it to people letting them know, like what, what does it do? Who does it serve?

Ricky Mason (08:47):

Yeah. So BrainSTEM provides STEM curriculum and STEM magnets for schools and nonprofits looking to increase access to STEM for K through 12 students. We also have launched our BrainSTEM Metaversity, a metaverse product for teachers to take their 2D Google classroom and convert it into a 3D metaverse classroom where students can collaborate during a 3D class. So all of your students show up as their avatars that they can select from our inventory of 150 avatars, and enjoy class in a 3D gameified Minecraft like World.

Eric Cross (09:26):

So I made my avatar by the way. It’s kind of tight, I have to say, it’s kind of tight. Hey, I’m gonna share. So those of you in the podcasts I’ll share it so you can see it. You’re not gonna be able to see it right now, but since I have the man himself I gotta share it with him just so I can get a reaction. So can you see that?

Ricky Mason (09:43):

Yeah. <laugh> That’s so good.

Eric Cross (09:44):

I feel like I wanna look like him though. I want him in real life. Like I want be able to switch to looking like my avatar

Ricky Mason (09:52):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (09:54):

That was the first thing that I jumped on, when I went on your site, was making the avatar and I had so much fun doing it. I actually took longer than I probably wanna admit cause I was like customizing everything

Ricky Mason (10:03):

Yeah, man. It’s so fun. And that’s exactly what, you know, when you can show up as the person you want, it changes your whole being. I’ve seen kids that are quiet in class. They show up as their avatar and they’re talkative, they’re asking questions, they’re moving around the room, interacting with other kids. I feel like it’s almost like a superpower just to put your avatar on.

Eric Cross (10:25):

So what is something that a teacher could have their students go and learn or do if they, if they signed up,

Ricky Mason (10:31):

Let’s kick it off. So how we started with the metaverses, was teaching coding. So our first class was Minecraft and Python coding in the metaverse. So students showed up in the metaverse with our virtual instructor, that instructor led a lecture in the metaverse and then those students could collaborate on their Python games. So, they created and built the game in Python. We shared those games in the metaverse and we have our leaderboards that are in the metaverse, as they’re completing these challenges, including these games, then sharing them back in the metaverse with other students and getting that feedback on their game. So we’ve seen huge excitement from students when I can come back in and see my friend’s work. Like too often, students don’t get to see their work and that’s motivation to do better when I’m like, Jim’s gonna see my work. It’s amazing to see that motivation when students are sharing their work with other kids and not just their parent or just them and the teacher or seeing their grades. It’s been really cool to see.

Eric Cross (11:33):

You have that genuine audience too. Like that real-time feedback. And then like an authentic audience for students that makes everything seem, it takes it up a notch.

Ricky Mason (11:42):

Yeah, man. And then as we have built on this platform, so like you said with that avatar, so think if you created a really cool looking avatar and other students wanted to be that avatar, we have a way of sharing that avatar back into the world and in the inventory so that other students could then be your avatar. Or, if you create a world, we could then share that world back into the inventory, so the teacher could have class in a world that you created.

Eric Cross (12:07):

They’re creating content, not just consuming it. They’re actually creating content that could be shared across like grade levels or students.

Ricky Mason (12:14):

Well, we’re gonna say right now it’s just within your classroom. Eventually yes, we want students to be able to share that across school districts. At least we think that data will be probably limited to those kinds of realms as far as schools go. But you’ll be able to share this across sixth grade. We’ll be able to see what everyone in the sixth grade is doing in their STEM class or their game development class or their history class, per se, even if they’re giving back a presentation or what we have here in JCPS is backpack skills of success, where students are presenting on things that they’re learning that relate back to core competencies that the district is focused on. And I think that sharing those in the metaverse and doing those in the 3D world will be an awesome experience for students.

Eric Cross (12:56):

Are you seeing anything else as far as those skills that we see that are needed in coding? Is there something that the VR adds that was distinct from maybe just a kid with a Chromebook in his class that it’s just him in isolation doing the coding? Was there any like aha moments or surprises when they’re in the VR world doing this?

Ricky Mason (13:13):

I think the biggest thing is we could actually show them real examples of code working in other ways. Sofor example, if we’re working through loops, we can show them something looping. We can relate these functions to real-world things happening in the VR world so that they can see and better relate the actual concept with visuals, if that makes sense. So, you’re in loop Allen the whole time you’re learning about loops. You’re immersed in that kind of world. What we’ve seen is students really start to, you know, they it pick up and it clicks a lot faster because some of these concepts are so abstract for students to understand, when we can relate them to things in that world that they see that are in front of them, that they can grasp before we go to okay, type in “while” “”parentheses” <laugh> they can thenrelate that and pick up on those clues a lot better after they’ve seen those things in the world.

Eric Cross (14:09):

So they can actually visualize it in the metaverse. Whereas outside of it, it’s more just, just text-based coding and they’re not isolated. Like the first thing I’m thinking about is how like, with my own students, when they’re learning Sratch or Python, it’s not easy to share back and forth because they all are on individual accounts and they’d have to go on a different computer, or we’d have to find some way to publish it. And then all the kids would have to access it. But it sounds like in the metaversity classrooms, it’s easy for students in that same class to see each other’s work. Am I getting that right?

Ricky Mason (14:37):

Yeah. So most of our classrooms are limited to 24 students and in some of our breakout classrooms, we limit them to about eight students. Everybody can share their screen, so students can share their screen in the metaverse. They can share their video in the metaverse. They can share documents in the metaverse. They can share their, like I said, their code or anything that they want to share with other students. They can kind of do that. So it’s been a really cool product, I think, for students to almost find independence to work within a group, in an online setting. As they’ve been working through these problems online and remote it’s been really cool to see how they use the metaverse and break out. Even in a class, they can go off into a section because it’s all spacial. If you walk away, I can’t hear your conversation. So they can go into a little section within a metaverse class and have their own breakout. And a teacher can walk over to them. Okay. You guys are working over here. Let me walk to my next group. Just like in class. So it’s been really cool to see those students use the metaverse like that.

Eric Cross (15:41):

Just listening to you talk about this. One of the exciting things about emerging technologies or taking what the private sector does, and someone with a mind like yourself, and go, how do I use this for education? Like, that’s something that like excites me and you’ve run with it. But I just thought about, you’re doing an hour of code, you’ve created this metaverse, and you can bring in somebody, a professional into the metaverse, but they’re in, you know, the Bay area, but they could be a software engineer for Tesla or Google or anybody. Could they move around the metaverse and take a look at different students’ work and interact in that way.

Ricky Mason (16:17):

Yeah, man, we get in there. We make metaverse selfies. I drop Lambos in the metaverse, we take picture with Lambos. We have scavenger hunts in the metaverse. It’s a really awesome experience. And that’s one of the big things I think that is so powerful, is like you said, we could have that engineer, that celebrity, we could have Travis Scott, you know, in the world meeting thousands of kids motivating them because they met their STEM goals. They met their, you know, their testing school goals or whatever. These are things that kids really care about. If I get the Travis Scott avatar or the Elon Musk avatar, because I completed the Elon Musk rocket challenge, like that’s huge for me to show up in class as that avatar, like it’s just like Fortnite and it’s bringing all of those mechanics into the classroom.

Eric Cross (17:07):

When I hear you talk about the metaverse and I hear you talk about the potential of where you want to go with it, I think about my own students, and I think about, how they would really have a genuine interest and desire to want to do this and probably be doing it when they don’t have to, like at home at night wanting to go back into it and interact. And, you’re also building this virtual community. I mean, are you seeing that like, cause I’m hearing that?

Ricky Mason (17:28):

Yeah, man, building that community is huge. And I often tell people all the time, I want the STEM community to be just like the basketball community, the football community. I want students to have that camaraderie built around them for learning STEM and participating in STEM activities and competitions. Because when you see students out there at a robotics, they have the same zeal, the same, you know, everything that you find at a football competition. So we just have to get behind them and back those events with the same enthusiasm that we back sports. And that’s the environment that I want to create for STEM students and for that STEM community, because I longed for that community when I was in school. And like I said, I had it in football, but I wanted both. I wanted the best of both worlds. I wanted my robotics guys and my football guys to show up together here at the competition and have a good time.

Eric Cross (18:23):

You’re absolutely right. Like robotics STEM, these things, community helps fuel like people’s interest and working together. And it brings people from the outside who are seeking that community. Like, hey, my friends are doing this, I wanna kind of check it out. That’s how we recruit a wider swath of our population into it. So it’s not this kind of very narrow channel of folks who are going into STEM.

Ricky Mason (18:45):

If you can’t find that community. I mean for me, I felt like I was the only one playing football who was interested in robotics. So I never told anybody because I didn’t feel like that related to anybody within my vicinity. So I kept that to myself and that’s the biggest thing. I think if we get these kids just talking more about their interests, because a lot of them are interested in robotics and space and these STEM topics, but they don’t have anyone that’s really nudging them or asking them or piquing their interest in those spaces and saying, hey man, it’s okay to, you know, learn about robots. It’s okay to geek out on space. <Laugh> So that’s been my goal and that’s kind of why I felt like this was the time in my career for me to kind of do this, be a face for STEM education and inspire kids to chase their goals and dreams. Over my career, I’ve had some really cool jobs, but I felt like I could keep doing cool jobs, but I’m like at the right age to still connect with those students and inspire them to chase their dreams. And that’s why I feel like right now, man, it’s just an opportune time to get these students involved in STEM.

Eric Cross (20:01):

We don’t get that. Oftentimes, when we’re solely doing the cool job or simply in the private sector, we don’t get those experiences as much as we do when we’re able to actually serve our community or students or take our passion, our skill set, and use it to serve another person. I hear that like, as you describe what you’re doing now is like, there’s something beyond just, you know, the using your skills and doing cool stuff, but there’s something I hear. That’s helping people and actually doing something you believe in that resonates deeply in you. And I can hear it as you talk about it.

Ricky Mason (20:30):

It’s been just amazing to actually chart out that journey. Like I said, and like tell kids, like, no man, I’m from right up the block from you, cause I mean, I’m building this back at home in my hometown. And that’s the reason why I kind of came back to kind of do that in my hometown, because I really want to, you know, relate to those students and inspire, you know, students here. Nobody thinks about technology coming out of Kentucky and that’s been a gift and a curse, I guess, with launching BrainSTEM in Kentucky. When I first started, I said, we’re a STEM education company, people are asking me what is STEM? So, that was where we started out with this in 2019, all the way to, you know, hey, in 2020, we’re gonna launch a metaverse. A metaverse! What is that? It’s been amazing to try to change the minds of not only Kentuckians about STEM and the importance of STEM, but the world that a metaverse company is coming outta Kentucky. <Laugh>

Eric Cross (21:31):

The work that you’re doing and, it exists beyond you and you probably know this, but as a Black science educator out here in San Diego … We don’t see people who look like all of us in this work often, and I saw that you had created something, a network group, network and chill. And that was one of the things, we had touched on community, but I thought that that was so huge because we need each other.

Ricky Mason (21:55):

I feel like that was the biggest thing for us in engineering. Like I showed up to my first internship and I’m like, I mean, my boss was cool. Everything else was cool, but I just didn’t feel like, hey, this is a community for me. And I almost changed my major because of that. But I’m glad that I didn’t, it’s huge to have more of us represented in, in these spaces.

Eric Cross (22:16):

And you know, in engineering, especially when we look at the disproportionate, you know, men versus women. Like it’s not, you know, it’s not just culture, but it’s, you know, gender, all of these different things. And if we’re gonna change it, I think a program like yours that gets exposure to all kids and then giving them choice. What advice would you give to students? Or what advice I should say, do you give to students now? When you see like your younger self in the different kind of K12 grades who are thinking about their futures or they’re thinking about STEM, what do you say to them?

Ricky Mason (22:46):

So my biggest advice, man is start now. Whatever that big thing is, that big dream is that you have, what is that now? You’re thinking about planes. You’re thinking about robots. You’re thinking about RC cars, whatever that is. Let’s start now. Let’s get your hands on an RC car. Let’s take it apart. Let’s start coding. Let’s start thinking about those problems now. But the biggest thing is, is getting kids used to solving tough problems. Typically, most students that have an affinity for, you know, STEM — and you just know that that kid’s gonna go into, STEM — they’re problem solvers. They’re typically looking and seeking those tough problems and seeking opportunities to learn. That’s where I feel like it’s parents’ jobs to provide that environment to foster, that zeal. A five-year-old kid, we started our STEM program with them at the beginning of this month.

Ricky Mason (23:39):

The first day I came in after I told him I was a rocket scientist. And now he’s like, well, I wanna be a pilot. I said, if you pay attention to this class, we’re gonna get you started on your way to being a pilot. And he knows all the parts of a rocket and he knows a rocket needs an oxidizer. And he knows the fuselage, the wings, the wing flaps. He knows all the different parts of the plane and how the forces, the drag, the lift, the weight, he knows how those are working cause we talked about those in class and he has so much more confidence and it came all to fruition when a kid said, wow, I thought it was gonna be really hard to be a robotics engineer. And I’m like, no, that’s not gonna be that hard. That is exactly what we set out to do when we started BrainSTEM, was to break down those barriers and those walls and build that confidence and say, look man, you can do this. It’s easy.

Eric Cross (24:26):

Society doesn’t help much either because one of our terms, right, if something’s really hard, or if something’s not hard, we say it’s not rocket science. That implies that rocket science is really hard and inaccessible. If kids would hear that it kind of instills in their brain, okay. It’s really hard, it’s probably too hard for me. To that point to parents, it sounds like a lot of just exposure, like giving students the opportunity to be able to be exposed to these things and letting them create wonder from it.

Ricky Mason (24:51):

Yeah, man. I often tell parents we’re gonna set kids up to go pro no matter what,

Eric Cross (24:56):

And those skill sets transfer, whether they decide to go into coding or they decide to manage a bank, you’re still gonna be dealing with people. You’re still gonna be problem-solving. You’re still gonna have to come up with creative solutions to things. It sounds like through a program like this, they learn those skills early.

Ricky Mason (25:12):

Yes. And I think that one thing that parents don’t think about … We talk about all the STEM and we want smart kids, but we need those soft skills also within STEM. So those competitions, getting them involved in those communities with STEM students is really huge in presenting their ideas because oftentimes, you know, our STEM guys, we’re in a lab working and that’s where we love and that’s where we wanna be because we haven’t, you know, been prepared to talk and present our ideas. So I think that’s a huge part of what we have to teach our STEM students. And we do that by providing that community and those opportunities for them to, you know, do that.

Eric Cross (25:47):

Thinking about where you are now, looking back on your K-12 education, were there any teachers that stood out to you or that inspired you as I even just say that, can you think of a particular teacher or one or two?

Ricky Mason (26:00):

When I think about my teachers, my teachers really taught me to solve those tough problems and those subjects that you don’t kinda like <laugh>, cause I was always a great student, but my teachers helped me to focus on those subjects that I didn’t so much, you know, enjoy. So I enjoyed math and science, but English social studies, like why do I have to be here? I had two teachers during my high school career that really supported me in that regard, and helping me to be the best student all aroundfrom like I said, STEM to English and social studies, and making me realize that I have to be a well-rounded student if I’m gonna be truly successful. As far as engineering, man, I would say one guy, my teacher, Nick Bazar up at John Hopkins. During my master’s there, I had a really cool project. I got to do data forensics on a real live murder case. <Laugh> That was really inspiring because I’m like, wow, this is real life where my coding skills are being used in a jury trial <laugh>. And so that was a really cool experience to partner with my professor to kind of do that. I mean, that was just mind blowing that I got to help with that and that, I mean, he was using his programming skills to help solve a murder case.

Eric Cross (27:22):

What’s the best way for people to connect with you and follow your journey? And if a teacher’s interested and they’re listening to this and they’re hearing, okay, this metaverse coding thing sounds awesome, I want to get involved, I wanna know more, where can people go? What steps should they take to be able to get connected to you and what you’re doing?

Ricky Mason (27:40):

Yeah. So you can check us out at brainSTEMu.com, that’s brainSTEM, the letter “u” dot com and on all social medias, we’re BrainSTEMu or BrainSTEM University. Teachers, right now, we are doing our free course for teachers. So sign up at brainstemu.com. You can sign up for your class to get into a free metaverse experience, just so you can kind of check it out and get your class into the metaverse and see how your students like the metaverse, how you like teaching in the metaverse and convert one of your 2D lessons from Google classroom into a metaverse classroom. For me, I’m Ricky Mason, 5 0 2 on all social media platforms. So you can just type that in Ricky Mason502 and get with me there.

Eric Cross (28:28):

Nice. Well Ricky, I wanna thank you for sharing your story and creating BrainSTEM. And then for, I know you’re a man of tremendous talents and skills and accomplishments, and you’re focusing all that on not only being back in your community, but also creating something for younger versions of you and opening up opportunities that they might not otherwise have, as you said, folks are like, what is STEM? And that is exactly where we need those seeds planted. So thank you for doing that.

Ricky Mason (28:55):

Oh man, this is awesome. I appreciate you, man for hosting this podcast and providing this platform and sharing the message of, you know, educators and people in the space.

Eric Cross (29:07):

Thanks so much for joining me and Ricky today. Make sure to support Science Connections by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. And you could hear more from Ricky in our Facebook group, Science Connections the community, where you can check out all the exclusive content. Until next time.