Reaching every learner, with Gregory Trieste

[00:00:00] Greg Trieste: All is the ultimate test for any district, for any organization in education because it either means something or it doesn’t.

[00:00:12] Ana Torres: This is Ana Torres, and welcome to Beyond My Years from Amplify. On Beyond My Years, we know educators never stop learning, and that’s why we’re here to help you extend your reach. Each episode, we share research-backed strategies and tried-and-true solutions from experts and experienced educators.

[00:00:32] And I am here once again with my favorite Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross. How you doing, my friend?

[00:00:41] Eric Cross: I’m doing great, Ana. I think, I’m favorite by default, ’cause I’m the only one.

[00:00:47] Ana Torres: You are the Classroom Insider.

[00:00:49] Eric Cross: I’ll take it.

[00:00:50] Ana Torres: Or we need to change the title.

[00:00:51] Eric Cross: Yeah, I’ll take it.

[00:00:52] Ana Torres: Today we’re talking about strategies for reaching all students. Eric, I know this is an episode you’ve been excited about. Tell me how you’re feeling about it.

[00:01:02] Eric Cross: Yeah, the one who you’re talking to, I had the privilege of being able to hear Greg speak at a conference, and he’s phenomenal. Super engaging. But then, he gave so many great points and perspectives for supporting all students, and all meaning all.

[00:01:16] And this is something that is a critical topic because it affects every educator. Our classrooms aren’t homogeneous, and so this is something that we could probably talk about for a whole season.

[00:01:26] Ana Torres: Today’s guest is Greg Triestee. Greg is an educator, advocate, and senior STEM product specialist for Amplify. He has over 20 years of experience in education.

[00:01:36] And just before we dive in, you should know that Greg is leading a free webinar for Learning Disabilities Awareness Month. Find out more information and reserve your spot at amplify.com/ldawarenessmonth. There’s also a link in the show notes.

[00:01:54] Eric, let’s bring on Greg, and we’ll catch up after.

[00:01:57] Eric Cross: It sounds good. Look forward to it.

[00:01:59] Ana Torres: It is October, which is Learning Disabilities Awareness Month, and I’m so excited that today’s episode is about strategies for connecting with all learners. We’ll be diving into tips for educators to create a positive classroom environment, and today’s guest has so much wisdom to share on these topics.

[00:02:20] Greg Trieste is a passionate former educator with over 20 years of experience in education, and he’s now specializing in science and math for Amplify. His academic and research focus has been on teaching diverse learners, believing that learning differences are assets, not deficits. Greg believes that all students can succeed in STEM regardless of their background and learning style.

[00:02:47] Welcome to Beyond My Years, Greg.

[00:02:50] Greg Trieste: Thanks. I mean, but you talked about this guest coming up with all this wisdom. Forget me. Let’s get to that guest. Who’s that?

[00:02:59] Ana Torres: You know what? It is you, Greg T. So, and again, I’m excited too that you shared a story with me literally a couple of minutes ago about how you are the beloved Mr. T to some of your students, so I might jump in and just instead of Greg, I might call you Mr. T if that’s okay.

[00:03:18] Greg Trieste: That would make me feel right at home. That came from quite literally my first year of full-time teaching. I have not been blessed with a very easy to pronounce last name. So one of my students was struggling with my name and she’s like, “How’s Mr. T sound?” I was like, “It sounds great. Let’s just go with that.” And then it stuck. And so when I hear Mr. T, it makes me feel right at home.

[00:03:42] Ana Torres: I mentioned you have over 20 years of experience in education, and I know you are a big believer that we need all kinds of people to become teachers, especially people who struggled back when they were students.

[00:03:57] Can you tell us a bit about your own journey into teaching and why you wholeheartedly believe in this?

[00:04:04] Greg Trieste: Sure. Where my mind goes when you ask that question is I go back to being a student. And I just go back to sitting there and saying to myself, “There’s a better way to do this.” That sounds very critical of my teachers, but I, I was someone who struggled from the beginning.

[00:04:25] My brain just didn’t process or work the way… I’ve gone on a journey in life. For a long time, I said, “My brain doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to.” And then I’ve recalibrated that to be, “My brain doesn’t work the way most other people expect or wish that it did,” because there’s a little more grace there.

[00:04:47] But I struggled. I knew that I wasn’t going to be able to learn essentially what I figuratively call the expressway or the most common way.

[00:04:57] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:04:58] Greg Trieste: And I want to be clear ’cause I’m thinking a lot about this. This was a different time. I loved teachers from the very beginning, and my teachers were simply not given support and training. And this is a function of the time versus teachers entering or in the profession now.

[00:05:16] We know so much more about reaching students with learning differences. So a lot wasn’t known then. My most vivid example that I never let go of is being told, “Just go sit in the corner and read.” And I was told that essentially ’cause I couldn’t read.

[00:05:37] Ana Torres: Wow. And so that’s very interesting. So you couldn’t read and were told to go in the corner and read.

[00:05:43] Greg Trieste: Right.

[00:05:44] Ana Torres: Figure out how to read, right?

[00:05:46] Greg Trieste: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it’s like when you were introducing me, I know that I’ve evolved to have much more of a math and science focus, which is what I’ve done with my teaching career.

[00:05:57] But when I’m speaking about that, most can relate to the analogy, for a long time, the think in education was, “Greg’s struggling with math? I got an idea. Let’s give him more math. That’ll do it.”

[00:06:11] It’s no different than being in gym class and being unable, and, hello, I’m talking about myself, being able to do one pull-up or chin-up in front of everyone. And it would be really silly if my gym teacher said, “Okay, well, just do 50.” And I would say, “Wait a minute. I’m struggling to do one. Telling me to do 50 is not going to close the gap.”

[00:06:36] But that’s what it was like. The classroom was a place where there was one-size-fits-all teaching, and it was incumbent upon me, the student, or students like me, to just learn to adjust. And if I couldn’t do that, I was essentially told, “You’ve got to look in the mirror for a solution.”

[00:06:56] Teaching is an incredibly difficult undertaking because a teacher’s given 45 minutes, they’re given 30 students, and they’re given a seemingly endless list of standards that they have to hit. And you’re going to gravitate to “Let me find a way to teach that does the most good for the most students.” But historically, it just leaves so many learners behind.

[00:07:19] Ana Torres: This particular even experience that you mentioned, like, “Hey, Greg, you don’t necessarily know how to read, but just go in the corner and read and figure it out on your own.”

[00:07:26] Those experiences then, did you see yourself as a teacher? Did you even think that you could be a teacher? Tell us how you got to that.

[00:07:35] Greg Trieste: I got there… Well, first, for a long time, the first phase of this was I said to myself, and I think society was saying to me, “You’re not smart enough.”

[00:07:44] So I saw teachers as people who could read fluently, who could do almost anything quickly. There was a big emphasis on speed. And what, the things that I could do, there was things I could do, I couldn’t do them fast.

[00:07:58] But there was a moment, I think it was around middle school, where I started to say, “Okay, I’m starting to figure out that when you’re struggling to learn something, learning what something isn’t actually has value as a backdoor to a first step.” And I remember saying to myself, “If I became a teacher tomorrow, I don’t think I’d know anything that works, but I think I’d know catalogs of what doesn’t work.”

[00:08:27] And sometimes being able to start from that is really helpful. I am really an advocate that not only, and this is just an imperfect expression, but not only straight-A students should go on to become teachers. I think that students who struggle, later, down their journey when, if they, teaching is something they want to pursue, that will produce so much value for helping your whole class learn, reaching each and every learner, helping them find their potential and find a way that works for them.

[00:09:03] I’ve always been someone who believes we learn so much from, maybe mistakes isn’t the right word, but when you find a way that doesn’t get to your destination, you probably won’t take it again. You’ll explore a new way.

[00:09:17] Ana Torres: So it sounds like those experiences informed how you would also teach. Would you agree with that statement?

[00:09:25] Greg Trieste: Absolutely. And to put this very simply, my frustration being that third-grader, that seventh-grader, that high school student in that seat was I was being asked to learn essentially their way or one way.

[00:09:42] Ana Torres: One way. Right.

[00:09:43] Greg Trieste: And so as I started to really get serious about overcoming a lot of obstacles I had to become a teacher, I said, “Listen, this is what I know. If I get there someday, I am not going to say, ‘This is how we’re going to learn this.’ I’m going to make this where I think the best way to put a student on the road to success for that student is to make them the author, at least partially make them the author of the way we’re going to get there.”

[00:10:12] Ana Torres: Nice.

[00:10:14] Greg Trieste: One of the things I laugh a little bit because I’m sensitive about my age the older I get. But, like, one of the things I would say every first day of school, there’s a logical question on parents’ night, back-to-school night, whatever it’s called, where a parent says, “Well, how long have you been a teacher?”

[00:10:32] And that’s not asked unkindly. It’s just one of the things that you would want to know about your child’s teacher. What I always said is, “This is my first year. You know why? Because I’ve never taught your students before. And yes, I’m taking some experience into the journey with me, but we’re going to find out together how this group learns together and how we can bring out the best in each other.”

[00:10:56] But to go back to something you said earlier about October being Learning Disability Awareness Month, I have always marveled that I think October is literally the perfect month because in your classroom, you’ve probably had them, depending on where you start, long enough of a little beat to say, “I’ve noticed some things about my learners. I’ve noticed that some of my learners are excelling when I ask them to do tasks A, B, and C. I’ve noticed some struggle, and I’m really starting to look for alternatives or ways to give opportunity to my students who may be looking for a less traditional path.”

[00:11:32] So celebrating learning disabilities, I just always thought October’s the perfect month, plus the month ends with free candy. I mean, what else do you need?

[00:11:41] Ana Torres: It’s literally the first party that happens when school begins. So I’m going to move us and shift us here because I know, and you and I have talked about this before, you make a very strong case that we sometimes misunderstand why students aren’t participating in class.

[00:11:59] Why such a big misunderstanding of why students aren’t participating in class?

[00:12:06] Greg Trieste: Well, I really begin from a perspective that learning involves vulnerability.

[00:12:14] Ana Torres: Mm, yes.

[00:12:15] Greg Trieste: If we take the case of middle school, middle school is an interesting time because students are, for the first time in many cases, having teachers who are subject matter experts versus an elementary teacher who’s, who are the real miracle workers in the sense that there has to be an expert on everything.

[00:12:31] Middle school’s also happening at a time where essentially your child is internally at war with the adult you’re going to become. They’re both fighting over your brain. It’s such a challenging time.

[00:12:45] Ana Torres: Yeah. They’re trying to find their identity. It is a very crucial time in their lives. Yes.

[00:12:50] Greg Trieste: Yeah. And it’s not exclusive to middle school, but there are a lot of moments where you go to school, it’s like, “Ugh, I wish I could be invisible today. I got stuff going on. I’m struggling with X, Y, and Z. I wish I could be invisible.” And learning… that vulnerability is there. And so as someone who sat there in sixth grade, I did not want anyone to know how poorly I could read, how much I was really struggling.

[00:13:17] And so I thought I was masking. I really wasn’t. I think everyone could see it. But if I acted like I don’t care, that’s a coping mechanism. That’s something my favorite writer, Brené Brown, would call armor, where I’m going to protect myself by giving the outward appearance of, oh, I simply don’t care, because, and this is an imperfect word and description, but that’s probably looked at by the students in my class as cooler than not knowing or not being able to.

[00:13:51] Ana Torres: Not being able to… So that’s the coping mechanism you used?

[00:13:55] Greg Trieste: Yeah. Whether it was acting out, trying to be funny, trying to get any reason to get out of class, to get sent to the nurse, whatever the case is. It’s like that was … those are survival mechanisms.

[00:14:08] Ana Torres: So that way you wouldn’t have to read, or you wouldn’t have to be asked to read.

[00:14:12] Greg Trieste: Right.

[00:14:12] Ana Torres: Or no one would see that Greg is having difficulty in this area.

[00:14:18] Greg Trieste: Absolutely, yeah.

[00:14:19] Ana Torres: Wow, Greg, this is the first I’ve ever heard you share that.

[00:14:22] Greg Trieste: As someone who grew up struggling to read and struggling to learn the traditional way, how I communi… how I had any connection to the world was through talking. And so everything to me was verbal.

[00:14:36] Report cards looked very, very different back then. They were handwritten, and there’d be a grade, and there’d be some comments. And my teacher would literally, in the comments, ask my mother for suggestions on how to get Greg to stop talking. And my mother, with a little bit of a wink and sarcasm, said, “If you happen to figure out how to get him to stop talking, please write to me, because he doesn’t stop when he walks in the door.”

[00:15:02] But that was the only part of my brain that really functioned. And so I would get report cards that would say things like, “Greg is highly verbal.” Almost like, can this be right?

[00:15:14] Ana Torres: So what would be some suggestions you would give our newer educators, and even our veteran educators, Greg, on this whole misconception on why students don’t participate in class and connecting with all of their learners?

[00:15:32] What are some recommendations you can give us?

[00:15:34] Greg Trieste: Well, my experience with this is that it’s almost never, “I can’t learn this.” It’s almost always closer to, “I’m struggling to learn this this way.”

[00:15:47] So if we’re willing to look at… I just love the visualization and the analogy of a journey and we’re going somewhere. If you’re willing to let me take the back roads rather than the expressway, I’m going to get there. Probably it’s going to take me longer but I’ll still get there.

[00:16:06] I’ll give you a perfect example. Everyone can relate to at some point in maybe middle school or high school, the teacher saying, “Okay, as we start to wrap this project or this book up, your big deliverable is a three to five-page paper, double-spaced, this font. You must have this many sources.”

[00:16:24] I really think that today, if that assignment was going out today, I think saying to the students, “Or record me a 30-minute podcast. Interview at least one person. Tell me some background you’ve done,” that would be looked at as an accommodation. I personally don’t see less rigor with that accommodation. I actually see so many possibilities opening up.

[00:16:54] Ana Torres: More opportunities, more possibilities, absolutely. I often talk about my experiences with teaching math and with a student who was just not able to grasp division, and so he did the opposite and got his answers using multiplication.

[00:17:10] And do you know what I said to him, Greg? “Do it the way that makes the most sense to you. You’ve got the answer.” But the way that he would struggle with it, it would really break my heart. And it was at a time where it’s you’re supposed to teach this way. This is how everyone’s supposed to learn. And I was the renegade and said, “Well, I don’t want my students not appreciating how important math is in their lives, so I will accept the answer in however way that child gets to the answer.”

[00:17:39] So any other recommendations you can give our educators out there to ensure that we’re connecting with all learners in our classroom and making them feel emotionally safe too, Greg?

[00:17:53] Greg Trieste: One of the things I referenced earlier is this idea of finding a way to let your students be the author in not just the projects they’re working on, but what those look like as they’re being created.

[00:18:07] I think I may have told you this story once before, but it’s one of the most meaningful stories for me as an educator. It was a time in my teaching career when I was really struggling connecting.

[00:18:17] That was the question I always asked myself. I didn’t say, “What percentage of my students get this standard?” I really was keyed in to say, “Look, nothing else matters if they’re not engaged. I need them present. I need them wanting to see value in coming to the classroom every day.”

[00:18:34] And I’m setting up for a lesson, and I always left my room open so for the first period, period one, students would trickle in sometimes early. And I’m at the front of the room. I’m certainly not eavesdropping, but I’m listening to two students talk about their weekend. And one of them is just describing some people they met, and I hear this phrase. One of them says, “Pic or it didn’t happen.” Just as something that young people will say as if to say, “Hey, we’re talking about this. I want to see a picture. I want to… Show me a photo of this.”

[00:19:04] Ana Torres: I need proof. They need proof.

[00:19:06] Greg Trieste: Yeah. It’s such a brilliant expression. And what I said, I said to myself, “Okay Everything I do, I’m going to have a visual element, even if it’s imperfect. There’s going to be a visual element that’s going to introduce, kick off, or always be there.”

[00:19:21] I said, “I will never have a slide ever again that only has text on it. I will have opportunities to really… And when I can’t come up with one, that’s going to be the opening task. Come up with a visual way to tell the story of X, Y, or Z.”

[00:19:38] Ana Torres: Like that.

[00:19:39] Greg Trieste: I felt good about it because honestly, it was an idea that was coming from a student, or the inspiration was.

[00:19:46] Ana Torres: And so think about it, like the ideas that we can get from our students, and I wish we could make it like a bumper sticker or T-shirt. Allow students to be the authors in their learning

[00:19:59] Greg Trieste: Yeah. And whenever I’ve done that, I find that they put so much thought into it. Like another example of this, and it’s not my original idea, but, and teachers borrow from one another all the time.

[00:20:10] But one of my favorite activities for maybe the last couple minutes of class, especially when it’s a very difficult or challenging topic that you see your students struggling with, asking them to write a letter to the student who’s going to be sitting in their exact seat one year from now. “What would you say to them? Give them encouragement or say, give them some tips about this difficult lesson we’re working through.”

[00:20:34] I love that activity, and so many teachers have shared with me that they’ve seen students put so much thought and effort into that, even that they don’t know who the recipient of the letter is.

[00:20:47] And to bookend with one more recommendation for teachers, when we think in terms of lesson plans, we tend to think in terms of objectives. “Okay, I’ve got 45 minutes. I want to get through A, B, C, and D in this lesson.” If you’re on B, and yes, on paper, you’re supposed to get to C and D, but your participation is through the roof.

[00:21:09] If you can’t get them to settle down, if you can’t break up arguments about which side of activity B is this or that, stay.

[00:21:18] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:21:19] Greg Trieste: If they’re engaged, don’t be afraid to put off till tomorrow, because what you have is, if you have an engaged audience right now, get out of the way.

[00:21:29] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:21:29] Greg Trieste: Don’t step in and say, “I’ve got to keep us on task.” I think it’s okay. There’s a beautiful thing called tomorrow. We can pick up what we don’t finish today then, but if you’ve got them, don’t say, “Oh, this is great, but we have to move on.” And I do understand there’s times where this is more challenging than others, but if it can be put off to stay in a place where they’re driving, let them drive.

[00:21:54] Ana Torres: Let them drive. And can we just stay here for a minute? Because you’re going where I want to go with you as it relates to, you mentioned teachers teaching in a certain order, the importance of teaching that concept. And we’ve had a conversation before, and you mentioned that sometimes educators will have all of these great ingredients.

[00:22:17] And when I say educators, this is me included. Great lecture, a great activity, great discussion, but they’ll order them in a way that doesn’t always work well for all learners. Talk a little bit about that, Greg.

[00:22:31] Greg Trieste: Okay. So I think most teachers can relate to the idea that we’ve got lots of entry points or lots of ways to introduce something or even what we can do in the course of a lesson.

[00:22:41] My experience is that put them all on the table figuratively and figure out which is the most outside the box, the most abstract, the most get them to go like, “Huh?” I’d rather that when I’m introducing something than, “Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.” I love it in the first five minutes of a lesson when the look on the face is, “Where on earth is the teacher going with this?”

[00:23:07] If I can pique that curiosity, it’s going to stay with me throughout the lesson, stay with us. It’s hard to inject curiosity 30 minutes in, I think.

[00:23:16] Ana Torres: Correct. Yeah.

[00:23:17] Greg Trieste: So not being afraid to start outside the box.

[00:23:21] Ana Torres: Curiosity is important. Engagement is important. We had a guest on the show, Dr. Noguera, who speaks a lot about that is a missing element when he’s in classrooms, is that spirit of curiosity. So I agree with you that we need to bring that back.

[00:23:38] Now, when listeners hear this episode, it will be Learning Disability Awareness Month. What advice do you have for educators, Greg, about supporting this particular group of learners, which includes my child?

[00:23:53] Greg Trieste: Well, one of the things I think about that is when we hear a word like diversity, it can mean so many different things to so many people.

[00:24:03] But one of the things that makes every classroom, every room, anywhere we are, the most diverse is our brains, okay?

[00:24:14] Ana Torres: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:14] Greg Trieste: And the way we process and the way we show our brilliance and share our brilliance.

[00:24:19] Ana Torres: Say that again. That is the way we share our brilliance, because every student in that classroom has brilliance in them. Yes.

[00:24:28] Greg Trieste: Absolutely. Absolutely. And to bring up another very painful part of my childhood is that there used to be moments as a kid a long time ago when there would be a giveaway, and they were giving away shirts, and they would say, the shirts would say, “One size fits all.”

[00:24:44] Ana Torres: Ah …

[00:24:45] Greg Trieste: I was often unable to fit in the one size fits all.

[00:24:49] And if you figuratively follow that to how we… this is my least favorite word in education, traditionally… how we traditionally structure learning, kids are not going to be able to figuratively fit into the T-shirt that is that day’s math lesson or whatever. And so embracing the idea that we can take this and we can go very abstractly.

[00:25:13] When I put my focus throughout my lifetime on learning differences, I come up with one very simple corollary, which is historically, the goal of my teacher was to get me to understand. And once I understood, my teacher would open the gates and say, “Okay, now you can choose from a project. You can do this report. You can make a diorama, whatever you want to do, but you’ve got to understand before I’m going to let you do that.”

[00:25:40] With so many students with learning differences, the complete reverse is the way to do it, meaning my goal is to get you to understand it. I’m going to do that by letting you take whichever…

[00:25:52] Ana Torres: Give you options.

[00:25:52] Greg Trieste: … one of these you want to explore. I’m going to have you do the project before you’ve learned, whatever the project is about, because the end game I have is by throwing you into this and having you struggle and ask questions and say, “How am I going to do this?” and ask your student to your left and right, that’s going to bring us to the destination of understanding rather than the starting point.

[00:26:15] So even asking teachers to think a little differently about that is something that really leans into the spirit of Learning Disability Awareness Month.

[00:26:25] Ana Torres: Thanks for sharing that. And he’s dropping a lot of wisdom nuggets.

[00:26:29] One of the wisdom nuggets, and I’ve dropped this before, but I want him to elaborate about this, is your great GPS analogy. And I’ve shared it on another episode before, but I would like for you, I want to have Mr. T share that great GPS analogy and how educators can use this idea to support their teaching

[00:26:52] Greg Trieste: Yeah, and I think most people can relate to not knowing where they are or needing directions.

[00:26:57] We put an address in the GPS, and there’s always that moment where it might give you three or four different routes to get there. The first one, which is pre-highlighted, says this is 18 minutes. Here’s one if maybe you want to avoid this interchange, whatever. This one’s 21 minutes, but then there’s the one at the bottom that’s 38 minutes.

[00:27:15] And there’s a moment where I think most people would look at that and say, “Who on earth would take that route? Why would you go there?” Because it’s important for teachers to think about we are a society that’s built on efficiency. We might say, “Why would I teach five ways to do this when I could just teach them the most efficient one?”

[00:27:37] Ana Torres: And the most efficient one, unfortunately, is the fastest one, ’cause think about, what pops up first is the fastest route.

[00:27:45] Greg Trieste: Yes. Yes, and so we’re so programmed to think about, “I’ve got to do this quickly, I’ve got to do this efficiently.” But if we get into the psychology of what we ask the GPS to do for us, we’re here, we’re trying to get there. We’re trying to get from A to B.

[00:27:59] The GPS is saying, “What are you talking about? There’s no difference between these three. You asked me to get you from here to there. All three or all four of these routes do that.” Whenever I’m talking to students, you’re not taking the 38-minute way to get there. You’re taking the scenic route. There’s so much more you’re going to see and learn going this way.

[00:28:21] And another piece of my life that’s very important to me, Ana, is my advocacy for people with disabilities in the workplace and in larger society.

[00:28:30] Ana Torres: Yes.

[00:28:30] Greg Trieste: And everyone’s different, but what many, many people with disabilities are very good at is they have spent their lives, and the freeway has been closed to them, so they have spent their lives finding another way.

[00:28:45] And I think most people in any work capacity, if you’re given the choice between someone who’s going to be fine if everything is perfect but then is going to come to pieces when something goes wrong or if someone who has just been dealing with things going wrong and finding another way every day of their lives, it’s so rare that I’ll talk to anyone about an experience with persons with disabilities in the workplace and them saying anything other than, “It has made our organization, our team so much better in so many ways.”

[00:29:22] Ana Torres: I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that. And I mentioned this in the beginning, Greg and I are colleagues at Amplify. And so because we’re colleagues and we want to talk a little bit about Amplify, what are some of the ways that you think Amplify helps educators connect with all students?

[00:29:42] ‘Cause I know the word all is very important to you, Greg.

[00:29:47] Greg Trieste: In so many ways, but to echo what you said, all is the ultimate test for any district, for any organization in education because it either means something or it doesn’t. When we talk about reaching all learners, what I love about what Amplify does is…

[00:30:07] Historically in education, the figurative selection of or development of curriculum has worked like this, and I’m obviously using an analogy here. In this box is going to be what you’re going to use for your typical learners. Over here on the bookshelf, when you have students that struggle, we have a special set of resources I’m going to pull off the bookshelf and I’m going to tell you about this separately. I really think Amplify’s philosophical approach to pedagogy and curriculum design is this: If we know at some point we’re going to address the needs of these learners, why are we not baking it in from the very beginning?

[00:30:43] Ana Torres: Yes. Yes.

[00:30:44] Greg Trieste: Why are we not walking in with one resource that says, “This is going to challenge your students who need to be challenged. It’s also going to bring every student who needs support because they learn differently. It’s all right here. It’s all baked in here.”

[00:31:01] And I think that, of course, there’s always differentiation and there’s always abilities for teachers to make modifications, but a good curriculum design has that in mind from the beginning, not after the fact.

[00:31:14] I mean, to use one specific example, the science program at Amplify is built on a foundation which is called “Do. Talk. Read. Write. Visualize.” I’m going to say that again, ’cause I love it so much. “Do. Talk. Read. Write. Visualize.”

[00:31:28] Ana Torres: Visualize.

[00:31:28] Greg Trieste: If my middle school science program was described in five words, it would be “Sit. Read. Read. Listen. Repeat.” And, I hope that was five. I didn’t count as I did that.

[00:31:41] But the point is “Do. Talk. Read. Write. Visualize.” Students are going to be better at some of those five than others.

[00:31:48] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:31:48] Greg Trieste: There are students who are not going to absorb a concept from a selected text that they read in support of a given disciplinary core idea or standard.

[00:31:58] But going hands-on, having an argument about it with another student about which worked better or about what the takeaway was, using 21st century visualization tools, which are amazing. All these things in concert with one another are going to put the student in just much more of a likelihood of making a connection and having them build on that.

[00:32:20] Ana Torres: And like you said, like having them be in the driver’s seat. Think about the first word, it’s “Do,” right?

[00:32:25] Greg Trieste: Yeah.

[00:32:26] Ana Torres: They’re doing first, so they’re being active in their learning first.

[00:32:30] Greg Trieste: Right. And hands-on, this is my opinion, going hands-on is less meaningful when it’s after everything else. If I’ve read about what’s going to happen when I introduce element A to substance B, when I actually get to observe it and see it tomorrow, it’s going to have less impact.

[00:32:48] Ana Torres: Agreed.

[00:32:49] Greg Trieste: So many teachers I talk to, they end up saying, “You’re not asking me to do anything different. You’re asking me to really look at the order I’m doing things in, look at the modalities in which I’m doing things in.” It’s not, I never want a teacher to hear that the answer is to throw everything out and start over. It’s not.

[00:33:09] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:33:09] Greg Trieste: It’s really just how can I make this a little more accessible, more palatable for more learners? And how can I give them a voice in what the finished product is going to look like?

[00:33:20] Ana Torres: And I know something that’s really important for you is creating a very positive classroom environment, and you’ve articulated that in the past.

[00:33:28] How do you feel that Amplify Desmos Math supports creating that positive environment in the classroom, Greg?

[00:33:37] Greg Trieste: To start with something very specific, and it’s a little thing, but it’s huge to me. The next room I walk into that there is not math anxiety present in that room is going to be the first. Math anxiety is everywhere, not just from students.

[00:33:55] There is a tool on the Amplify Classroom platform called Anonymize, and basically what it does is it takes the names of your learners and it changes their names to the names of famous thinkers. What I love so much about it is it sends a message and allows teachers to model this, “In the Amplify Desmos Math classroom, we’re going to critique ideas. We’re not going to critique one another.”

[00:34:19] And so if it makes my students more likely or more willing to put an idea out there when they’re not certain, it’s just going to pour Miracle-Gro on curiosity and learning and it’s going to help so much happen.

[00:34:34] And every teacher can relate to a classroom where this only happens. I’m raising my hand. If you can’t see, my hand is going up like I’m a student, I’m going to say.

[00:34:42] Ana Torres: Yes. He’s raising his hand.

[00:34:43] Greg Trieste: If this only happens when the student knows that they’re right, it becomes a classroom of confirmation. But what we want is we want classrooms where this is happening. I’m raising my hand again. This is happening when the student doesn’t know that they’re right, when they don’t know the answer.

[00:35:00] So that becomes a classroom of exploration, and most students would much rather be in an environment of exploration rather than just confirmation. I’m a teacher, I’m just up here giving out medals to people that already knew when they walked in.

[00:35:15] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:35:16] Greg Trieste: One of my favorite games to play when I’m teaching math is Wrong Answers Only. It’s so much fun. Everyone gets involved. But it also underscores the idea that we can learn from mistakes just as much as we can learn from just about anything else. But it’s the idea of that visualization, and I think there’s so much in Amplify Desmos Math that is geared to that type of learner.

[00:35:39] Ana Torres: Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom, all of your experiences. I got to know you a little bit better. He’s always on the road, guys, so I don’t always get a chance to chat with my colleague, Greg Trieste. So before we go, on tough days, what reminds you of why you’re passionate about education?

[00:36:00] Greg Trieste: That we’re lucky enough to have this, my favorite thing in the world, tomorrow. That if we fail nine days in a row, the 10th might be the day. I have failed more than I’ve succeeded as a student, as a teacher, and as a human. But, I mean, our students need to be celebrated just for showing up every day. That takes courage. And I think when you can just be grateful for getting another shot tomorrow, if we’re lucky to get it, I think that’s everything.

[00:36:27] Ana Torres: Well, and I celebrate you. You have done a lot of work nationally really talking about learning differences. And so, here’s my advice to you. Celebrate the young Greg T. that went through all of those challenges because then we were able to have an amazing Mr. T. as an educator for all students.

[00:36:49] Greg, it was great to have you here. Thank you so much for being a guest on Beyond My Years.

[00:36:54] Greg Trieste: Thanks so much for having me. This was amazing.

[00:36:58] Ana Torres: That was Greg Trieste, educator, advocate, and senior STEM product specialist for Amplify. He is a passionate former educator with over 20 years of experience in education.

[00:37:08] Remember, Greg is about to lead a free webinar for Learning Disabilities Awareness Month, From Deficit to Difference to Strength. Find out more information and reserve your spot at amplify.com/ldawarenessmonth. There’s also a link in the show notes. Now, let’s welcome back our Classroom Insider, middle school science teacher Eric Cross.

[00:37:34] Eric Cross: Can I tell you the first thing that comes across when Greg talks and communicates?

[00:37:36] Ana Torres: Yes, please.

[00:37:37] Eric Cross: It’s his spirit of grace that he has. He doesn’t look back on the educators that he had that weren’t able to meet his needs. He doesn’t look back on that with negativity. He has compassion and empathy.

[00:37:47] He understands that they didn’t have the training. They didn’t have all the things that they needed. That lens that he sees things through was the first thing that came across as he was talking. It was so, it was so uplifting.

[00:37:59] Ana Torres: Very graceful, very reflective, but super passionate about serving all students in classrooms.

[00:38:07] So let’s start with your first takeaway, Eric.

[00:38:09] Eric Cross: Yeah, the first one was one that I saw in my classroom, and that’s treat disengagement as a clue, not a conclusion.

[00:38:16] And so what appeared to look like misbehavior was sometimes a form of self-protection, or he used the word armor, and I thought that that was great. It really put words to what I had seen.

[00:38:24] And so for the educator, before interpreting a student that’s not participating as laziness or disrespect or lack of motivation, think about what they’re trying to maybe avoid showing you. And. the apathy part, oh, that was, it was so insightful because when a student displays apathy, that’s the coolest disengagement.

[00:38:45] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:38:45] Eric Cross: But inside there’s, you’re protecting yourself…

[00:38:48] Ana Torres: Correct.

[00:38:48] Eric Cross: From embarrassment, from being corrected publicly, from difficult texts, from all the demands that you have coming on you. And so as an educator, the goal isn’t to excuse harmful behavior. We need to recognize it, but we need to go deeper and understand that it’s a function.

[00:39:03] Ana Torres: What’s the why?

[00:39:04] Eric Cross: Yeah.

[00:39:04] Ana Torres: What’s the why behind it?

[00:39:05] Eric Cross: What’s the why behind it?

[00:39:06] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:39:06] Eric Cross: And knowing that the behavior is always telling us something.

[00:39:09] Ana Torres: Absolutely. He was able to mask that in a way. He’d disengage, and for him to share that story, I had a student very similar to him in middle school, and the fact that he was known as the behavior kid. I’ve shared this story before.

[00:39:27] Eighth grade, Eric, is when it was like a light went off in his teacher’s mind, like, “He can’t read.” It’s like, “Stop calling the office. We have to have a meeting and say, ‘There’s a reason for this extreme misbehavior.'” He couldn’t read, Eric. Let’s figure out the why.

[00:39:44] Now, what’s your second takeaway?

[00:39:46] Eric Cross: The second takeaway, well, you’re going to know why I like this, because it really resonates with me as a science teacher, but it’s letting students attempt meaningful problems before you explain everything.

[00:39:55] Greg had recommended allowing students to begin with a meaningful project or a phenomenon or a problem to help develop their understanding through questioning and inquiry and collaborating or even looking at other people’s responses. And that allows them to access prior knowledge, and you’re able to see that as an educator. And they’re not going to know all the information.

[00:40:15] And I want to point out that the value doesn’t come from them failing or things being difficult for the sake of being difficult. You don’t want to just put kids in hard situations just for the sake of hard situations.

[00:40:23] Ana Torres: Right.

[00:40:24] Eric Cross: It comes from carefully designing these sequences where they start off generating ideas and questions. They start off with curiosity, and then they look at different perspectives, and then they look for evidence, or they connect their thinking to other ideas that they have.

[00:40:38] From their perspective, they think they’re just solving a problem. But from your perspective, you’re really walking them through problem-solving before instruction, letting them look at different solutions. And it’s really about engaging them in the participation and the act of asking questions, the act of collaborating, the act of sharing how they think. That’s the success.

[00:40:57] Ana Torres: Exactly.

[00:40:58] Eric Cross: And so exploration before examination. Before you get into the formal instructions, allow them to engage. And in math content, I think this is huge, too…

[00:41:06] Ana Torres: Huge.

[00:41:06] Eric Cross: Because I never had this in math.

[00:41:08] Ana Torres: Yes, yes.

[00:41:08] Eric Cross: Yeah. It really makes math concepts, more concrete, more practical. In science, I can throw a phenomenon out there that’s really interesting, and students are like, “Whoa, what is that?” And I can dive into the science. When math teachers can do that, throw that problem out there and allow students to solve it or wrap their minds around it, I think it’s huge because it takes sometimes the numbers or the words, and it makes it something like that’s tangible and practical.

[00:41:29] Ana Torres: And the fact that you used the word the act of exploration, the act of curiosity and having that noisy classroom where students are collaborating and sharing their thinking, even for that student who may not have the concept, even just hearing other ideas and other students exploring and being curious will also allow them to participate when it is time for that. So really activating the knowledge that students do bring and the strengths that do, they do bring.

[00:42:00] I love the exploration phase of math when we just looked at a problem and talked about it. “What do y’all think? What do you think this means? What’s going on here?” Obviously, in my class, we did a lot of visuals ’cause most of my babies were acquiring English, but just the process and to hear them think about their thinking provided me as a teacher and students such a very different way to engage with the content.

[00:42:25] So letting students attempt meaningful problems before explaining everything, and you mentioned it, it has to be intentional. And Greg talked a lot about steps, the various steps you need to have in the lessons.

[00:42:39] Eric Cross: Yeah, that actually connects to the third thing I was going to say, is creating that classroom of exploration rather than just right answers or rather just confirming things.

[00:42:46] And Greg talks about this. He says, when you create a classroom where students only can participate when they have the right answers, then only the kids who know the right answers are going to share. And people who are still developing their answers or uncertain aren’t going to participate.

[00:42:58] And so there’s certain things that you can do to promote more engagement with students’ participation. One of them is learning from wrong answers. I love Wrong Answers Only. It’s the best because, personally, I think it’s hilarious because it scrambles the students’ minds, like, “Wait, what?” Now it removes the barrier of participation, and now everyone can do it.

[00:43:18] And then I think, I have no data to support this, but I think students start getting to this muscle memory of participating, and then when you actually do do something that’s more of like explain your answer, they’ve done it so many times and the wrong answer only that they’re like, “Oh, I’m more willing to take a risk.”

[00:43:34] Ana Torres: You may not have the data to support this, so we’re throwing it at researchers, but intuitively I would feel the same way. It would increase engagement and risk-taking, for sure.

[00:43:44] Eric Cross: And maybe it’s, I do have evidence, but it’s just anecdotal.

[00:43:46] Ana Torres: Sure.

[00:43:47] Eric Cross: But we see that the participation becomes a lot more equitable when students aren’t required to risk their social identity, and this goes back to the first point. Every time they share an idea that’s still in process, it’s still baking.

[00:43:59] And so if I don’t have to worry about looking bad in front of my friends, and I can just share my idea in this classroom that promotes and celebrates sharing ideas, right, wrong, doesn’t matter, now I’m getting more students involved. Now I’m really creating this place where people are willing to take risks. Some people call it the error-friendly classroom.

[00:44:18] Ana Torres: Oh.

[00:44:19] Eric Cross: You still care about accuracy but you treat the accuracy as, it’s like the outcome that comes after you’ve done reasoning and feedback and revision. It’s not the price of admission to get into the discussion.

[00:44:31] Again, this is a skill because I sometimes will stop and ask a question that’s just a right or wrong answer question, and I catch myself because when a student says a wrong answer, I have to sit there and process, “How do I respond to this so I validate the student participating, but then also don’t create a misconception that what they said is correct?” And I’m like, “Oh, I should’ve, I should, I’m going to say this differently.” The great thing about being a secondary teacher is I get multiple classes.

[00:44:55] Ana Torres: You get multiple attempts.

[00:44:57] Eric Cross: I do.

[00:44:57] Ana Torres: You get multiple attempts. But that goes to what Greg is such an advocate for, is really trying to reach all learners in the classroom, and I liked how you said, “I don’t need to be right to be admitted to this particular conversation or exploration time.” He does talk about the importance of creating a classroom where students are able to do that, so that takes time.

[00:45:23] But the key is we want to create classrooms where students can take risks and be okay with possibly getting the wrong answer. But what we want to also do is celebrate what students are getting right. What are the right aspects to this particular problem? You didn’t get the entire answer wrong. Let’s look at what you got right. So creating a classroom of exploration rather than confirmation. Love it. Love it.

[00:45:49] And you know what, Eric? I have good news. I always love to share good news. If you want to hear more from Greg, he is always doing webinars and presentations, so we will have links in the show notes to his upcoming events. Eric, as always, it’s good to chat with you again.

[00:46:08] Eric Cross: Likewise, Ana. I look forward to the next one.

[00:46:11] Ana Torres: Thanks for listening to Beyond My Years from Amplify. We know educators never stop learning, and that’s why we’re here to help you extend your reach. Check out the show notes for more free resources and information on Amplify Science and Amplify Desmos Math.

[00:46:27] And go to amplify.com/ldawarenessmonth to sign up for Greg’s upcoming webinar. By attending, you’ll get to explore the evolution of our understanding of learning disabilities, the role of universal design for learning in creating more inclusive environments, and the gifts that diverse learners bring to our schools and communities.

[00:46:49] That’s amplify.com/ldawarenessmonth. There’s also a link in the show notes. Next up on Beyond My Years, Dan Meyer returns to the show to share more strategies for engaging students in math class, with or without classroom technology.

[00:47:06] Dan Meyer: With low-tech environments, what teachers ought to orient themselves around is less around evaluation and more around interpretation.

[00:47:14] Ana Torres: That’s next time. I’m your host, Ana Torres. Our Classroom Insider is Eric Cross. Our music is by Andrew Smolin. Until next time, please remember to reach out and say thank you to a seasoned educator who has shaped your life.