New professional development series for science educators

New year’s resolutions generally don’t work—unless, experts say, they’re specific, measurable, and backed by science (like … getting more sleep so you feel more rested). So if you’ve resolved (or at least planned) to do more science professional development this year, we got you.

Our new, free, on-demand professional development webinars are ready to be added to your calendar. Designed for the era of NGSS, they offer research-based ways for you to engage your students deeply in science this year. (But we hope you’ll find a way to get more sleep, too!)

Phenomena-based science learning for next-level engagement

The Next Generation Science Standards (NGSS) are designed to deliver this key shift: Students go from learning about to figuring out. Instead of delivering information, teachers invite students to explore the power of phenomena-based learning in science. By focusing first on real-life scenarios and thoughtful questions over abstract correct answers, this approach cultivates students’ voices and curiosity. It gets them to the right answers—but in a way that helps them think, read, write, and argue like real scientists and engineers.

The NGSS also delivers three-dimensional science instruction. This means that each standard includes the following three dimensions:

Science and Engineering Practices: the actual behaviors that scientists and engineers engage in as they investigate and create.
Cross-cutting Concepts: concepts that appear across and link various domains of science. They include: Patterns, similarity, and diversity; cause and effect; scale, proportion, and quantity; systems and system models; energy and matter; structure and function; and stability and change.
Disciplinary Core Ideas: The fundamental scientific ideas that make up the core content of the NGSS.

A look at our webinars

Featuring curriculum experts from UC Berkeley’s Lawrence Hall of Science, our webinars will show you what these approaches look like in real classrooms.

COURSE 1

Establishing a Culture of Figuring Out in Your Next Generation Science Classroom

Explore ways to cultivate curiosity and value student voices while utilizing the structures and content from phenomena-based, literacy-rich science curricula designed for the Next Generation Science Standards.

Watch on demand now!

COURSE 2

Lead with Phenomena and the Three Dimensions Will Follow

Reframe your K–8 science instruction by focusing on phenomena. Learn about the shift in science teaching and classroom practices toward one where students are figuring out, not learning about.

Watch on demand now!

COURSE 3

Leveraging Science to Accelerate Learning

Learn about an approach to teaching and learning science that not only meets state science standards, but can also be used to support accelerated student learning across all subject areas.

Watch on demand now!

Also:

Tune into Science Connections:The Podcast.
Learn more about the NGSS.
Explore more Amplify webinars.
Have a phenomenal 2023 in science!

S1-09: Supporting K–8 science students in the digital world: Ricky Mason

Podcast cover for "Science Connections," Season 1, Episode 9, featuring "Ricky Mason" discussing K–8 science education. Includes a globe illustration and decorative science-themed elements.

In this episode, Eric sits down with Ricky Mason, chief executive officer of BrainSTEM. Ricky shares his passion for inspiring students into science careers, and his path from an engineering career with organizations like the Department of Defense, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and the Central Intelligence Agency to starting BrainSTEM, an education program that develops creative digital tools to enable all teachers and students to dive deeper into STEM content. Ricky and Eric talk about representation in science classrooms and the importance of embedding fun within K–8 science content! Explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page.

Download Transcript

Ricky Mason (00:00):

I feel like comfort is where dreams go to die. And I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up, chasing them.

Eric Cross (00:08):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Ricky Mason. Ricky is an engineer whose career included lead roles at the Department of Defense, NASA, and the CIA. Ricky transitioned to education as an adjunct faculty at the University of Kentucky. And while there, he founded BrainSTEM, an edtech company that developed a 3D virtual reality metaverse for STEM education. Today, BrainSTEM serves public school districts, private schools, and nonprofits. And in this episode, we discuss what led Ricky to creating BrainSTEM Metaversity, and how he’s using the metaverse to transform STEM learning for students. And now please enjoy my conversation with Ricky Mason. How did you, so like maybe going back doing your origin story, maybe you can talk about it, but brother, you don’t sleep. Talk about keep making moves, your hashtag, I mean, I was looking at your LinkedIn profiles, looking at your details. You get after it. I was getting tired just reading it. I was like John Hopkins, electrical engineering, real estate, starting companies. You must have that gene where it’s like four hours of sleep and then you’re like, ready to go.

Ricky Mason (01:19):

Yeah, man. My mom told me if I didn’t stay busy, then I’m in trouble. So when I was about 14, she told me that. I said, well, Mama, I guess I’m gonna stay busy then. And yeah, man, that’s just been my life. I feel like if I don’t keep making moves, then I’m in trouble. So, feel like comfort is where dreams go to die and I’m still dreaming every night. So I’ll wake up chasing them.

Eric Cross (01:44):

I feel like a kindred spirit with you. So, were you always interested in STEM like, was there something like a moment or a year where you remember you were like, this is my jam. This is what I’m gonna get into.

Ricky Mason (01:57):

Yeah, man. When it really clicked for me was in the fifth grade. I was at a school assembly and an IBM engineer came in and he brought a robot and he programmed it with punch cards right on the stage. And I got the opportunity to come up andyou know, put one of the punch cards in the robot to program it. And I asked him, I’m like, what is your job? He said, I’m a robotics engineer. And I went home right after that assembly and I said, Mom, that’s what I wanna do, become a robotics engineer. And my mom would take me to the libraries. Well, I felt like I was getting outta bible study on Wednesdays by going to the library. So I went there and I started researching robots.

Ricky Mason (02:39):

And at the time the robots that were popular were all being sent to space. And it was the spiritless. It was being sent to Mars. And I said, Mom, well, I guess I gotta become an astronaut if I’m gonna be a robotics engineer. And that’s kind of what set me out on that dream. And my mom started trying to find outlets for me to get involved in STEM, but it was really tough to find those outlets, you know, especially in that fifth to eighth grade range here in Kentucky. So that was kind of where it started for me man, when I knew that yeah, engineering is what I wanna do.

Eric Cross (03:14):

What does an electrical engineer do? I imagine there’s different types of specialties, but like, was there something that you specialize in that you focused on or was it, is it just kind of like a generalist field?

Ricky Mason (03:23):

Yeah, so I would say, yeah, man, it’s a huge field. So you could be doing anything from, you know, power, like power coming into your house. So those large power systems all the way down to nanotechnology and microchips. I like to tell people I’m a real full stack engineer, so my wheelhouse is kind of from the PCD, the little green computer chips, all the way to the cloud. Over my career, I’ve had some pretty cool jobs. One of those things was I was a test engineer for the army. So I got to test weapons up at Aberdeen Proving Ground for the Army. So I got to drive those weapons and test them before they went to theater there. After that,I worked at United Launch Alliance down at Cape Canaveral where I launched five rockets.

Ricky Mason (04:07):

So I was a part of the electrical ground systems team there where we were responsible for all of the electrical systems on the rocket while it was on the pad. Somonitoring the temperature of the rocket, the fuel, the entire system for safety while it was on that pad. And then finally I worked at the CIA as a computer engineer building data centers and as a data center architect for some of our remote systems and virtualizing our systems. So kind of had a broad spectrum of things there. And then finally coming back to the University of Kentucky as a research engineer and faculty. I developed drone technology for monitoring crops. So flying drones over crops with LIDAR, just like self-driving cars with high-definition cameras to pull in data about those crops, to help farmers determine about pesticides fertilizers, and the overall health of their crops from a remote location.

Eric Cross (05:10):

It’s so neat to hear you talk about it and to see how this is all built up to what you do now with BrainSTEM. How would you explain what BrainSTEM is? I know that’s your, that’s kind of your baby right now and what you’ve been working on a few years.

Ricky Mason (05:23):

Yeah, man, we started BrainSTEM in 2019 officially, but I would say BrainSTEM has been almost 10 years in coming. While I was in undergrad, I played football at the University of Kentucky. But I got hurt going into my sophomore year and that kind of shattered my dreams of football. And that’s when I really got back into engineering. One of my professors asked me to come to a robotics competition and I saw these third graders and sixth graders programming robots. And I’m like, oh my God, they’re programming robots! And I had no idea how to code or what to do with these things. And where was this a when I was a kid? And so I immediately bought one of those robots and taught myself how to program it <laugh> and then we started a robotics team in Lexington,there at a church.

Ricky Mason (06:10):

And we got a sponsorship from Lexmark to start that team. And that was kind of my first leap into STEM and teaching STEM and creating programs for students in STEM. I did that in undergrad and like I said, fast forward 10 years later, I’m teaching at the University of Kentucky and we’re struggling to recruit STEM students. Why aren’t students going into STEM? I hear too many adults tell me, oh man, I wish I would’ve done engineering, or I started out in engineering, but I left engineering or I wish I could go back to school for engineering or learn to code. And I’m like, I asked them like, why didn’t you do this? What happened? And often it’s like, it was the math. It was, oh, I didn’t get into it until I was in college. And I’m like, well, that’s the key.

Ricky Mason (06:52):

I knew I wanted to do this in the fifth grade. And I started with a plan in the fifth grade to achieve these goals and dreams. And I started doing that research and realizing that the same problem existed that I had. There was no outlet for kids to get involved in STEM, and so many kids have an affinity for STEM an early age. So we started BrainSTEM to provide access to STEM education and exposure STEM careers, STEM professionals, and just to STEM fields as a whole, because too often kids may know about the term, engineer, or the term, scientists, but they don’t really know what those people do or have a strong connection with the field or have any hands-on projects that they kind of done around those things or met anyone like me.

Ricky Mason (07:42):

I didn’t meet an engineer until I was in college. So that has really been impactful for some of the students that we’ve been able to touch. I had a family reach out to me. They moved to Lexington from California and they were like, man, I really want my ninth-grade son to get involved in engineering. So we started a weekend program with that one student and it went amazing. Like we competed in science fairs, we applied for different college programs and things like that. So it became an entire like mentorship program. And I’m proud to say that a year ago, he actually graduated with his bachelor’s in electrical engineering from your side of town, UCSB. It was just awesome to actually see this come full circle. And that’s kind of one of the first things that we did before we actually formalized as BrainSTEM University.

Eric Cross (08:34):

What will be like your elevator pitch for a teacher? If you were gonna say, this is what BrainSTEM does. I have the luxury of going through it on the site, but since we’re on a podcast, how would you kind of pitch it to people letting them know, like what, what does it do? Who does it serve?

Ricky Mason (08:47):

Yeah. So BrainSTEM provides STEM curriculum and STEM magnets for schools and nonprofits looking to increase access to STEM for K through 12 students. We also have launched our BrainSTEM Metaversity, a metaverse product for teachers to take their 2D Google classroom and convert it into a 3D metaverse classroom where students can collaborate during a 3D class. So all of your students show up as their avatars that they can select from our inventory of 150 avatars, and enjoy class in a 3D gameified Minecraft like World.

Eric Cross (09:26):

So I made my avatar by the way. It’s kind of tight, I have to say, it’s kind of tight. Hey, I’m gonna share. So those of you in the podcasts I’ll share it so you can see it. You’re not gonna be able to see it right now, but since I have the man himself I gotta share it with him just so I can get a reaction. So can you see that?

Ricky Mason (09:43):

Yeah. <laugh> That’s so good.

Eric Cross (09:44):

I feel like I wanna look like him though. I want him in real life. Like I want be able to switch to looking like my avatar

Ricky Mason (09:52):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (09:54):

That was the first thing that I jumped on, when I went on your site, was making the avatar and I had so much fun doing it. I actually took longer than I probably wanna admit cause I was like customizing everything

Ricky Mason (10:03):

Yeah, man. It’s so fun. And that’s exactly what, you know, when you can show up as the person you want, it changes your whole being. I’ve seen kids that are quiet in class. They show up as their avatar and they’re talkative, they’re asking questions, they’re moving around the room, interacting with other kids. I feel like it’s almost like a superpower just to put your avatar on.

Eric Cross (10:25):

So what is something that a teacher could have their students go and learn or do if they, if they signed up,

Ricky Mason (10:31):

Let’s kick it off. So how we started with the metaverses, was teaching coding. So our first class was Minecraft and Python coding in the metaverse. So students showed up in the metaverse with our virtual instructor, that instructor led a lecture in the metaverse and then those students could collaborate on their Python games. So, they created and built the game in Python. We shared those games in the metaverse and we have our leaderboards that are in the metaverse, as they’re completing these challenges, including these games, then sharing them back in the metaverse with other students and getting that feedback on their game. So we’ve seen huge excitement from students when I can come back in and see my friend’s work. Like too often, students don’t get to see their work and that’s motivation to do better when I’m like, Jim’s gonna see my work. It’s amazing to see that motivation when students are sharing their work with other kids and not just their parent or just them and the teacher or seeing their grades. It’s been really cool to see.

Eric Cross (11:33):

You have that genuine audience too. Like that real-time feedback. And then like an authentic audience for students that makes everything seem, it takes it up a notch.

Ricky Mason (11:42):

Yeah, man. And then as we have built on this platform, so like you said with that avatar, so think if you created a really cool looking avatar and other students wanted to be that avatar, we have a way of sharing that avatar back into the world and in the inventory so that other students could then be your avatar. Or, if you create a world, we could then share that world back into the inventory, so the teacher could have class in a world that you created.

Eric Cross (12:07):

They’re creating content, not just consuming it. They’re actually creating content that could be shared across like grade levels or students.

Ricky Mason (12:14):

Well, we’re gonna say right now it’s just within your classroom. Eventually yes, we want students to be able to share that across school districts. At least we think that data will be probably limited to those kinds of realms as far as schools go. But you’ll be able to share this across sixth grade. We’ll be able to see what everyone in the sixth grade is doing in their STEM class or their game development class or their history class, per se, even if they’re giving back a presentation or what we have here in JCPS is backpack skills of success, where students are presenting on things that they’re learning that relate back to core competencies that the district is focused on. And I think that sharing those in the metaverse and doing those in the 3D world will be an awesome experience for students.

Eric Cross (12:56):

Are you seeing anything else as far as those skills that we see that are needed in coding? Is there something that the VR adds that was distinct from maybe just a kid with a Chromebook in his class that it’s just him in isolation doing the coding? Was there any like aha moments or surprises when they’re in the VR world doing this?

Ricky Mason (13:13):

I think the biggest thing is we could actually show them real examples of code working in other ways. Sofor example, if we’re working through loops, we can show them something looping. We can relate these functions to real-world things happening in the VR world so that they can see and better relate the actual concept with visuals, if that makes sense. So, you’re in loop Allen the whole time you’re learning about loops. You’re immersed in that kind of world. What we’ve seen is students really start to, you know, they it pick up and it clicks a lot faster because some of these concepts are so abstract for students to understand, when we can relate them to things in that world that they see that are in front of them, that they can grasp before we go to okay, type in “while” “”parentheses” <laugh> they can thenrelate that and pick up on those clues a lot better after they’ve seen those things in the world.

Eric Cross (14:09):

So they can actually visualize it in the metaverse. Whereas outside of it, it’s more just, just text-based coding and they’re not isolated. Like the first thing I’m thinking about is how like, with my own students, when they’re learning Sratch or Python, it’s not easy to share back and forth because they all are on individual accounts and they’d have to go on a different computer, or we’d have to find some way to publish it. And then all the kids would have to access it. But it sounds like in the metaversity classrooms, it’s easy for students in that same class to see each other’s work. Am I getting that right?

Ricky Mason (14:37):

Yeah. So most of our classrooms are limited to 24 students and in some of our breakout classrooms, we limit them to about eight students. Everybody can share their screen, so students can share their screen in the metaverse. They can share their video in the metaverse. They can share documents in the metaverse. They can share their, like I said, their code or anything that they want to share with other students. They can kind of do that. So it’s been a really cool product, I think, for students to almost find independence to work within a group, in an online setting. As they’ve been working through these problems online and remote it’s been really cool to see how they use the metaverse and break out. Even in a class, they can go off into a section because it’s all spacial. If you walk away, I can’t hear your conversation. So they can go into a little section within a metaverse class and have their own breakout. And a teacher can walk over to them. Okay. You guys are working over here. Let me walk to my next group. Just like in class. So it’s been really cool to see those students use the metaverse like that.

Eric Cross (15:41):

Just listening to you talk about this. One of the exciting things about emerging technologies or taking what the private sector does, and someone with a mind like yourself, and go, how do I use this for education? Like, that’s something that like excites me and you’ve run with it. But I just thought about, you’re doing an hour of code, you’ve created this metaverse, and you can bring in somebody, a professional into the metaverse, but they’re in, you know, the Bay area, but they could be a software engineer for Tesla or Google or anybody. Could they move around the metaverse and take a look at different students’ work and interact in that way.

Ricky Mason (16:17):

Yeah, man, we get in there. We make metaverse selfies. I drop Lambos in the metaverse, we take picture with Lambos. We have scavenger hunts in the metaverse. It’s a really awesome experience. And that’s one of the big things I think that is so powerful, is like you said, we could have that engineer, that celebrity, we could have Travis Scott, you know, in the world meeting thousands of kids motivating them because they met their STEM goals. They met their, you know, their testing school goals or whatever. These are things that kids really care about. If I get the Travis Scott avatar or the Elon Musk avatar, because I completed the Elon Musk rocket challenge, like that’s huge for me to show up in class as that avatar, like it’s just like Fortnite and it’s bringing all of those mechanics into the classroom.

Eric Cross (17:07):

When I hear you talk about the metaverse and I hear you talk about the potential of where you want to go with it, I think about my own students, and I think about, how they would really have a genuine interest and desire to want to do this and probably be doing it when they don’t have to, like at home at night wanting to go back into it and interact. And, you’re also building this virtual community. I mean, are you seeing that like, cause I’m hearing that?

Ricky Mason (17:28):

Yeah, man, building that community is huge. And I often tell people all the time, I want the STEM community to be just like the basketball community, the football community. I want students to have that camaraderie built around them for learning STEM and participating in STEM activities and competitions. Because when you see students out there at a robotics, they have the same zeal, the same, you know, everything that you find at a football competition. So we just have to get behind them and back those events with the same enthusiasm that we back sports. And that’s the environment that I want to create for STEM students and for that STEM community, because I longed for that community when I was in school. And like I said, I had it in football, but I wanted both. I wanted the best of both worlds. I wanted my robotics guys and my football guys to show up together here at the competition and have a good time.

Eric Cross (18:23):

You’re absolutely right. Like robotics STEM, these things, community helps fuel like people’s interest and working together. And it brings people from the outside who are seeking that community. Like, hey, my friends are doing this, I wanna kind of check it out. That’s how we recruit a wider swath of our population into it. So it’s not this kind of very narrow channel of folks who are going into STEM.

Ricky Mason (18:45):

If you can’t find that community. I mean for me, I felt like I was the only one playing football who was interested in robotics. So I never told anybody because I didn’t feel like that related to anybody within my vicinity. So I kept that to myself and that’s the biggest thing. I think if we get these kids just talking more about their interests, because a lot of them are interested in robotics and space and these STEM topics, but they don’t have anyone that’s really nudging them or asking them or piquing their interest in those spaces and saying, hey man, it’s okay to, you know, learn about robots. It’s okay to geek out on space. <Laugh> So that’s been my goal and that’s kind of why I felt like this was the time in my career for me to kind of do this, be a face for STEM education and inspire kids to chase their goals and dreams. Over my career, I’ve had some really cool jobs, but I felt like I could keep doing cool jobs, but I’m like at the right age to still connect with those students and inspire them to chase their dreams. And that’s why I feel like right now, man, it’s just an opportune time to get these students involved in STEM.

Eric Cross (20:01):

We don’t get that. Oftentimes, when we’re solely doing the cool job or simply in the private sector, we don’t get those experiences as much as we do when we’re able to actually serve our community or students or take our passion, our skill set, and use it to serve another person. I hear that like, as you describe what you’re doing now is like, there’s something beyond just, you know, the using your skills and doing cool stuff, but there’s something I hear. That’s helping people and actually doing something you believe in that resonates deeply in you. And I can hear it as you talk about it.

Ricky Mason (20:30):

It’s been just amazing to actually chart out that journey. Like I said, and like tell kids, like, no man, I’m from right up the block from you, cause I mean, I’m building this back at home in my hometown. And that’s the reason why I kind of came back to kind of do that in my hometown, because I really want to, you know, relate to those students and inspire, you know, students here. Nobody thinks about technology coming out of Kentucky and that’s been a gift and a curse, I guess, with launching BrainSTEM in Kentucky. When I first started, I said, we’re a STEM education company, people are asking me what is STEM? So, that was where we started out with this in 2019, all the way to, you know, hey, in 2020, we’re gonna launch a metaverse. A metaverse! What is that? It’s been amazing to try to change the minds of not only Kentuckians about STEM and the importance of STEM, but the world that a metaverse company is coming outta Kentucky. <Laugh>

Eric Cross (21:31):

The work that you’re doing and, it exists beyond you and you probably know this, but as a Black science educator out here in San Diego … We don’t see people who look like all of us in this work often, and I saw that you had created something, a network group, network and chill. And that was one of the things, we had touched on community, but I thought that that was so huge because we need each other.

Ricky Mason (21:55):

I feel like that was the biggest thing for us in engineering. Like I showed up to my first internship and I’m like, I mean, my boss was cool. Everything else was cool, but I just didn’t feel like, hey, this is a community for me. And I almost changed my major because of that. But I’m glad that I didn’t, it’s huge to have more of us represented in, in these spaces.

Eric Cross (22:16):

And you know, in engineering, especially when we look at the disproportionate, you know, men versus women. Like it’s not, you know, it’s not just culture, but it’s, you know, gender, all of these different things. And if we’re gonna change it, I think a program like yours that gets exposure to all kids and then giving them choice. What advice would you give to students? Or what advice I should say, do you give to students now? When you see like your younger self in the different kind of K12 grades who are thinking about their futures or they’re thinking about STEM, what do you say to them?

Ricky Mason (22:46):

So my biggest advice, man is start now. Whatever that big thing is, that big dream is that you have, what is that now? You’re thinking about planes. You’re thinking about robots. You’re thinking about RC cars, whatever that is. Let’s start now. Let’s get your hands on an RC car. Let’s take it apart. Let’s start coding. Let’s start thinking about those problems now. But the biggest thing is, is getting kids used to solving tough problems. Typically, most students that have an affinity for, you know, STEM — and you just know that that kid’s gonna go into, STEM — they’re problem solvers. They’re typically looking and seeking those tough problems and seeking opportunities to learn. That’s where I feel like it’s parents’ jobs to provide that environment to foster, that zeal. A five-year-old kid, we started our STEM program with them at the beginning of this month.

Ricky Mason (23:39):

The first day I came in after I told him I was a rocket scientist. And now he’s like, well, I wanna be a pilot. I said, if you pay attention to this class, we’re gonna get you started on your way to being a pilot. And he knows all the parts of a rocket and he knows a rocket needs an oxidizer. And he knows the fuselage, the wings, the wing flaps. He knows all the different parts of the plane and how the forces, the drag, the lift, the weight, he knows how those are working cause we talked about those in class and he has so much more confidence and it came all to fruition when a kid said, wow, I thought it was gonna be really hard to be a robotics engineer. And I’m like, no, that’s not gonna be that hard. That is exactly what we set out to do when we started BrainSTEM, was to break down those barriers and those walls and build that confidence and say, look man, you can do this. It’s easy.

Eric Cross (24:26):

Society doesn’t help much either because one of our terms, right, if something’s really hard, or if something’s not hard, we say it’s not rocket science. That implies that rocket science is really hard and inaccessible. If kids would hear that it kind of instills in their brain, okay. It’s really hard, it’s probably too hard for me. To that point to parents, it sounds like a lot of just exposure, like giving students the opportunity to be able to be exposed to these things and letting them create wonder from it.

Ricky Mason (24:51):

Yeah, man. I often tell parents we’re gonna set kids up to go pro no matter what,

Eric Cross (24:56):

And those skill sets transfer, whether they decide to go into coding or they decide to manage a bank, you’re still gonna be dealing with people. You’re still gonna be problem-solving. You’re still gonna have to come up with creative solutions to things. It sounds like through a program like this, they learn those skills early.

Ricky Mason (25:12):

Yes. And I think that one thing that parents don’t think about … We talk about all the STEM and we want smart kids, but we need those soft skills also within STEM. So those competitions, getting them involved in those communities with STEM students is really huge in presenting their ideas because oftentimes, you know, our STEM guys, we’re in a lab working and that’s where we love and that’s where we wanna be because we haven’t, you know, been prepared to talk and present our ideas. So I think that’s a huge part of what we have to teach our STEM students. And we do that by providing that community and those opportunities for them to, you know, do that.

Eric Cross (25:47):

Thinking about where you are now, looking back on your K-12 education, were there any teachers that stood out to you or that inspired you as I even just say that, can you think of a particular teacher or one or two?

Ricky Mason (26:00):

When I think about my teachers, my teachers really taught me to solve those tough problems and those subjects that you don’t kinda like <laugh>, cause I was always a great student, but my teachers helped me to focus on those subjects that I didn’t so much, you know, enjoy. So I enjoyed math and science, but English social studies, like why do I have to be here? I had two teachers during my high school career that really supported me in that regard, and helping me to be the best student all aroundfrom like I said, STEM to English and social studies, and making me realize that I have to be a well-rounded student if I’m gonna be truly successful. As far as engineering, man, I would say one guy, my teacher, Nick Bazar up at John Hopkins. During my master’s there, I had a really cool project. I got to do data forensics on a real live murder case. <Laugh> That was really inspiring because I’m like, wow, this is real life where my coding skills are being used in a jury trial <laugh>. And so that was a really cool experience to partner with my professor to kind of do that. I mean, that was just mind blowing that I got to help with that and that, I mean, he was using his programming skills to help solve a murder case.

Eric Cross (27:22):

What’s the best way for people to connect with you and follow your journey? And if a teacher’s interested and they’re listening to this and they’re hearing, okay, this metaverse coding thing sounds awesome, I want to get involved, I wanna know more, where can people go? What steps should they take to be able to get connected to you and what you’re doing?

Ricky Mason (27:40):

Yeah. So you can check us out at brainSTEMu.com, that’s brainSTEM, the letter “u” dot com and on all social medias, we’re BrainSTEMu or BrainSTEM University. Teachers, right now, we are doing our free course for teachers. So sign up at brainstemu.com. You can sign up for your class to get into a free metaverse experience, just so you can kind of check it out and get your class into the metaverse and see how your students like the metaverse, how you like teaching in the metaverse and convert one of your 2D lessons from Google classroom into a metaverse classroom. For me, I’m Ricky Mason, 5 0 2 on all social media platforms. So you can just type that in Ricky Mason502 and get with me there.

Eric Cross (28:28):

Nice. Well Ricky, I wanna thank you for sharing your story and creating BrainSTEM. And then for, I know you’re a man of tremendous talents and skills and accomplishments, and you’re focusing all that on not only being back in your community, but also creating something for younger versions of you and opening up opportunities that they might not otherwise have, as you said, folks are like, what is STEM? And that is exactly where we need those seeds planted. So thank you for doing that.

Ricky Mason (28:55):

Oh man, this is awesome. I appreciate you, man for hosting this podcast and providing this platform and sharing the message of, you know, educators and people in the space.

Eric Cross (29:07):

Thanks so much for joining me and Ricky today. Make sure to support Science Connections by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. And you could hear more from Ricky in our Facebook group, Science Connections the community, where you can check out all the exclusive content. Until next time.

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What Ricky Mason says about science

“We just have to get behind [students] and back them with the same enthusiasm that we back sports…because I longed for that community when I was in school.”

– Ricky Mason

CEO, BrainSTEM

Meet the guest

Ricky Mason is the dynamic CEO and founder of BrainSTEM, an ed-tech company that developed a metaverse for education. His corporate career included lead engineer roles at the DoD, NASA, and CIA. Ricky transitioned to education as adjunct faculty at the University of Kentucky. While there, he started BrainSTEM to bring innovative technology and an inspirational curriculum to STEM education. Today, BrainSTEM serves public school districts, private schools, and nonprofits.

Follow Ricky on all social media @rickymason502

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About Science Connections

Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher. Listen here!

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S4 – 02. Bethany and Dan share their math biographies

Promotional graphic for "math teacher lounge," season 4 episode 2, featuring photos and names of math teaching guests Bethany Lockhart and Dan Meyer.

In this episode, co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer get personal and share their “math bios”—their early experiences with math and how those experiences turned them into the educators they are today.

Explore more from Math Teacher Lounge by visiting our main page.

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Dan Meyer (00:00):

We’re recording. What’s up, everybody. This is Dan Meyer with Math Teacher Lounge.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:08):

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. We are so excited to be back. Season Four, Episode Two. Hi, Dan.

Dan Meyer (00:16):

Hey, Bethany, how are you doing today?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:18):

I’m so excited to be talking with you! You know, as we record this, our reunion at NCTM is getting closer and closer.

Dan Meyer (00:28):

The NCTM live show is gonna be bonkers. I don’t think people are ready for it. You think you know what we’re about on MTL from listening to us, but the live show is gonna be outta control. You cannot imagine how many clowns and elephants Bethany wants to have at the live show. We’re still—we’re trying to talk her down from like three to one, but we’ll see.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:44):

All I want is the t-shirt cannon. Because I used to go to these baseball games and they would have a t-shirt cannon. And I thought, I wanna operate a t-shirt cannon! So like, if I could be standing on stage aiming t-shirts at people who are jumping up and down requesting a t-shirt? I don’t know. Doesn’t that sound fun?

Dan Meyer (01:01):

Sounds awesome. High point of my college education was catching a t-shirt. No, it was—it was a burrito. It was a burrito cannon. But I think it was just a t-shirt cannon, but it was a burrito cannon. And I caught a burrito at a game and it was probably the most memorable moment of all of college education for me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:16):

Was the burrito still warm?

Dan Meyer (01:18):

Oh yeah. I think it got—like, I think it might’ve been warm at one point and then it got warmed back up through the muzzle velocity of the cannon. So it was a pretty great system they had going on there. <Laugh> Yeah. <Laugh> Anyway, I’m off topic, but, we’re thrilled to—I’m thrilled to chat with you and we’re thrilled to be listened to by you folks out there in MTL land. In the lounge itself. We got a fun show today.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:40):

So if you listen to Episode One—which if you haven’t, hope you go back and listen to it—if you listen to Season Four, Episode One, you’re gonna hear—we asked Huon, KT, who is this delight of a joyful teacher. We asked her to talk to us about what’s her math bio. And we want to ask all of our guests—like, I wanna go back and ask every single guest we’ve ever had to tell us their math bio.

Dan Meyer (02:06):

Yep.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:06):

Because, while seemingly simple in nature, our students enter our math classroom already having had this relationship with math and these notions about their role in math or what they think about math. And it impacts our school year with them if we’re a teacher. And it impacts our relationship with math as we move through our education and beyond. Right? And I I’m so excited about this question, ’cause I think it also ties into this theme for Season Four, which is joyful math, and diving into “When has math felt joyful? When has it not? Does it feel like—how do we think about how our math bio, our relationship with math, has evolved into a joyful or less joyful place?”

Dan Meyer (02:54):

I get it. And what’s really key here, I think, is that teaching more than other professions is a generational profession. You know what I’m saying? Like, no one is like, “Well, you know, I sold insurance to you and now you’re selling insurance to, you know, my grandkids; that’s amazing!” But people are always posting photos when, like, you teach someone who then becomes a teacher later. Teaching is a generational sort of thing. So the kinds of joyful experiences that we offer or don’t offer students now affect the experiences that students who haven’t even been born yet will have, you know, some 20, 30 years later. That, to me, is a trip. And well-worth exploring, you know, how we got here, mathematically speaking.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:39):

I remember a friend had sent me this image of an assignment that her son got that was asking for their Mathography. They wanted to know about their history of mathematics. And this was their first assignment. And this teacher, I would like to imagine, read them all and used it to inform conversations about students’ relationship with math. And, you know, some of the questions they asked were thinking about whether you consider yourself, quote, unquote, “good at math.” Like “what kind of experiences have you had? What do you like or dislike about math? What is, you know—what do you expect to learn in math this year?” Just asking students to actually pause and examine and reflect on their relationship and then also looking forward to, like, what kind of a classroom community do we wanna create? And I loved that assignment. And yeah, so today’s episode Dan, guess what?

Dan Meyer (04:32):

What’s going on? What’s happening?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:33):

I figured we should ask each other about our math bio.

Dan Meyer (04:39):

I think the people out there would love to know this about us. ‘Cause you know, we’re both awesome. But also what’s really cool here is that like, I don’t know this about you. Like not, not a lot. You know, the folks at Amplify, they kind of assembled me and Bethany together in the same way that record labels assembled pop boy bands, girl bands, that kind of thing, back in the day. You know, grabbing some stars from screen or film and just like throwing ’em together and saying, “All right, now you’re here to perform together.” And so it’s just a really good moment for us to, like, settle back and just know who we’ve been working with for the last three seasons and change here. I love it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:15):

Well, I don’t know. I don’t actually agree with that, Dan. Because don’t you remember? We knew each other beforehand. And while I would like to think of us as…oh, I’ll say One Direction—well, no, One Direction is now defunct. Who’s another band that got formed by one of those shows and is still together and still—

Dan Meyer (05:33):

BTS! K-Pop, you know! Let’s go!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:35):

K-pop. BTS.

Dan Meyer (05:38):

Let’s go, Bethany <laugh>.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:39):

So can we incorporate some K-pop into the NCTM Math Teacher Lounge live episode? Don’t answer now. Don’t answer now. OK. So not only are we gonna share our math bios, but we want to encourage you listeners to share your math bio with somebody in your life. It could be a child in your life, maybe talking to your kiddo about what was it like. What was math like for you? It could be a student that you have. It could be a partner, a friend, a parent. I mean, the sky’s the limit. Share your math bio. And most of all, share with us. We wanna hear about your math bio and you can share it with us at Twitter, at MTLShow, or in our Facebook group, Math Teacher Lounge.

Dan Meyer (06:26):

Stop on by, please. All right. I’m gonna just share like, just a couple of quick, signposts. Not the full bio. Gotta leave them wondering about something here. But here’s a few quick highlights and lowlights of my math bio and how, maybe, it made me the teacher that I was and the educator I am. Is that cool?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:44):

Wait, I didn’t even, I didn’t ask you yet.

Dan Meyer (06:46):

Ask me what?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:47):

Hey, Dan!

Dan Meyer (06:49):

Is there like a magical word? Like, what’s your math bio? <Laugh> Oh, go for it. No, no, that’s right. They won’t know what I’m talking about. Why is he talking about his math bio? Bethany—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:57):

That whole lead-in that we just gave? They might not know.

Dan Meyer (07:00):

Yeah. We just talked about math bios for the last 20 minutes. But yeah, they might not know what we’re—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:04):

<laugh> So Dan, why don’t you go first? ‘Cause I know you were gonna ask me to go first, but why don’t you go first? Dan? What’s your math bio?

Dan Meyer (07:12):

Oh, wow. Well, thank you for the formal invitation to share my math bio, Bethany Lockhart Johnson. So, I’ll just share—I just wanna share a couple items here, not the full history. Gotta leave ’em—leave a little mystery in there, you know what I’m saying? But here’s a few highlights and lowlights, and I think what it means for me as an educator. So, I was homeschooled for eight years. That was big—did a lot of math learning on my own. Couple of lowlights from that, a lot of highlights, in terms of just like being able to, like, learn at my own rate and just jump on ahead and pursue different wacky things. But I tried to switch into public school in fourth grade and I lasted, um, four hours. I didn’t even go to class. I enrolled and then it was like, boom, I was out of there. Because we went to the school; we met the teacher, saw the room, very nice person and place. But I got the homework assignment and the homework assignment was gibberish. I had no idea what to do and such was this feeling of just, like, despair and hopelessness, I was like, I cannot be a part of this. I remember the assignment. It was about identifying scalene, isosceles, and equilateral triangles. I’ll tell you this: I am quite good at that now. But at the time, like, I didn’t know what those words meant. And you know, at that moment we had Encyclopedia Britannica, could not Google this or even Ask Jeeves or AltaVista this so well back then. It just—it was an entry moment of failure and realizing that so much of math is like a, kind of a social kind of construct. And if you’re not part of that social circle, what can you do? So that was a bummer. Another bummer was eighth-grade math, learned it all by way of videotape. You know, put in the tape and watch—not gonna say the person’s name and not this person’s fault—but it was just like watching someone work on a whiteboard. Kind of a precursor to Khan Academy, kind of a drag. Went to high school—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:02):

Wait, wait, wait, wait. We were—I’m not ready to jump to high school. Wait. Can you pause for just a second?

Dan Meyer (09:06):

Yeah. Rock on.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:07):

I just need you to go back to the triangle thing. So in that moment, what did that mean for you that you had had all these experiences with math and then you encounter math in a completely different sphere, a public school, and it did not have a connection or meaning to you because prior to that, it sounds like it was pretty positive. Right? Explore these things you’re curious about; there’s not, like, a level you need to stick with…

Dan Meyer (09:33):

Yep, yep. Yeah. I think that’s right. Maybe it was a little bit of a classic, like, “Oh, I didn’t have a growth mindset; my mindset was like, ‘Oh, I’m good at math because I am, you know, born that way,’” and all of a sudden, that identity was, you know, thrown into question. And, you know, my foundation was all of a sudden quite shaky. And yeah, that’s—you know, I think I taught a lesson recently where I was like, “Hey, this whole thing with a less-than or equal-to sign and a greater-than or equal-to sign, like what those signs are: it’s just, it’s language. And if it’s confusing to you, it’s not because you’re bad at math; it’s ’cause language is oftentimes confusing ’cause people have to agree on it.” So I dunno, that sort of thing is kind of filtered in, filtered back in periodically, some sympathy for like how a lot of math is like just socially agreed upon ways of working with, you know, numbers, shapes, patterns, that kind of thing.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:20):

OK.

Dan Meyer (10:21):

Anyway.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:21):

And in this home school—I have a lot of questions about that, but I’ll stick to one—were you in a community of people that you talked about these math ideas with? Were you homeschooled solo? You have a sibling, so I think you were together, right?

Dan Meyer (10:39):

Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a twin sister. So we were, you know, like, right on with each other the whole way through there. And yeah, so we had—but it wasn’t, it wasn’t like a—it was a lot of individual work, with my flavor of homeschooling.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:54):

Got it. And the tapes—wait, before you go to high school, the tapes, the VHS tapes, which I’m just loving this image—

Dan Meyer (11:02):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:02):

Was that a positive experience? Was that because that was an area of math that whoever was homeschooling you wasn’t that comfortable with? Why was it that route for the tapes, and what was that? Was that joyful for you?

Dan Meyer (11:15):

Yeah, definitely not joyful. Yeah, it was like, if you had questions, you couldn’t really ask them of the VHS tape. It didn’t work out so well in that way. And it was a lot of operational-type math. It was, you know—there was no give and take; it was all kind of take. From the video teacher. And yeah, I was doing that because my homeschool teacher, my mom, who is very smart in lots of areas, did not have the math knowledge or confidence, especially to help with math at eighth grade. And that was a big reason why, flash-forward to the next year, went to high school.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:48):

Nice segue. OK.

Dan Meyer (11:50):

<laugh> You caught up to high school…I encountered just like four years of just crazy-good, just bonkers-good math teachers who just really changed a lot for me. Especially, Mr. Bishop and Mr. Cavender, very cool folks who did a lot. And especially, I think Mr. Bishop and Cavender both modeled for me what curiosity from a knowledgeable adult looks like. Like someone who, you know, now I can say to myself, “Oh, they were kind of like putting on an act of being very curious about answers they were hearing for the 2000th time from a student,” let’s say, but what a powerful experience that was for me to feel like, “Oh, wow, my thoughts are interesting to someone besides myself.” I got like, maybe it’s two real highlights that I’ll just point to, from my math bio that made me the math teacher and person that I am. Let’s see here. Maybe three, if you you’ll indulge me. One is just like the idea that you could do math wherever you have your brain, a pencil and a paper. And so I remember like in high school, I was in church with my family and kind of a little bit bored of whatever’s going on. And I just had the Bolton and I like drew a pentagon, a regular one, then a hexagon, a regular one, and kept on drawing, like adding sides to the shape. And it was like, it was becoming a circle. And, you know, I was able to take the area of each of those shapes and say, you know, “What happens as you send the number of sides to infinity?” And watch as the formula for area of a circle, Pi R squared, popped out. And it was kind of a literal religious experience, in that moment, just like, “Wow, like my brain’s so cool and math is so cool and paper and pencil’s so cool.” And so there’s that. Just that kind of experience was pretty awesome. And then I would just say like, I’ve had some really fantastic experiences with math in the world itself. Stuff like—let’s see, this is gonna invite more questions from Bethany, probably, maybe I should avoid—I got, I have a Guinness—I have a Guinness world record that’s almost 20 years old. This Guinness world record is—it’s old enough to drive basically at this point. And almost old enough to drink. But like it was—it was a record for chaining the longest paper clip chain together in 24 hours. And the only way I was able to break that record was through mathematics. Where, like, I would be finishing a box of clips. And I would say to my buddy who was there, “I just finished a box of clips.” And that person would type in the number of clips that I had just done. And then a mathematical formula that I had created would tell me how many—how long the chain was at that point. It was being rolled around a spool. And like, it’s just like, wow. So math just made this possible. You know, math revealed that the record I was trying to beat was beatable, because I did the math on it. It was, like, thousands of feet long in 24 hours. And other folks might be like, “Oh, like, that’s that’s huge!” But me, I was like, “All right, let’s divide this out. You know, divide by 24 hours in a day, divide by 60 minutes an hour, 60 seconds in a minute. Oh, that’s like one clip every four seconds. That’s really slow.” You know, think about that <counts aloud>, “Clip, two, three, four. Clip two, three…” It was just slow. So math helped me, you know, wreck that record. Which to my knowledge still still stands. Don’t get any ideas, Math Teacher Lounge Folks! Is this news to you, Bethany? You haven’t blinked in the last, like, five minutes. I’m curious if this is new.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:20):

It is news to me. And I have so many questions. Because OK, if four seconds was slow, so then what was your like—so then I’m assuming a hundred clips per box? Like, what was the rate, you know, per box? How long did it take you to complete a box? What did this friend like? Did this friend stick with you for the whole 24 hours? Did you really do it for 24 hours? Or once you beat the record, did you rest? How did you account for biological function? Like, needs? Like a restroom?

Dan Meyer (15:51):

<Interrupting> Like what?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:51):

Eating.

Dan Meyer (15:51):

Like what, Bethany? OK.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:52):

Um, Sleep.

Dan Meyer (15:55):

So yeah, maybe we dive into some of the specifics in a different time.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:59):

Just tell me one of ’em. Tell me one.

Dan Meyer (15:59):

I’ll just say. So as to discourage other Math Teacher Lounge listeners from taking this on—back off of the record, folks!—this was back in college, so I was a little more limber back then. But I did one—I think it was 1.8 seconds per clip. For an entire 24 hours. Just like, so just like think about it, would you? If you’re gonna step to me on this one, just think about that, OK? And then, and then, you know, make an informed decision.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:28):

Wait. Wait, wait, I just wanna tell you one thing. I’m picturing somebody with a straw, and like, giving you water as you keep clipping. I’m picturing, like, music, I…

Dan Meyer (16:37):

That’s not far. That’s not far. That’s not far from—yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:40):

So many questions! OK. Go on. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Go on. This is your bio.

Dan Meyer (16:44):

We gotta, I gotta wrap this up. I wanna hear your bio. But, like, I would just say like this move to this sense that math is actually a thing that’s useful for more than just a grade; it’s useful for more than just, you know, the societal, you know, adulation that comes from being a math nerd. That kind of thing. And so that, I think that affected a lot of math teaching for me. And, if I gotta, like, summarize math teaching itself in a journey, it went from like, “Hey kids, aren’t I awesome?” to, “Hey kids, isn’t math awesome?” to “Hey kids, aren’t you awesome?” And like that journey was facilitated by lots and lots of people, you know, a lot of personal growth, but at this point, at one point I was like, “Hey, math can help you get records and whatnot. It’s really useful.” And now I’m like, “Wow, your brain’s just doing just really interesting things. I can help you understand how interesting those things are, and maybe make them more interesting, or interesting in a different way, with some help here.” Let’s put a pin in that. That’s the math bio.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (17:50):

So I have no doubt that if you ask someone in your life, listeners, for their math bio, that you will discover things about them that you never knew. Literally the questions that I have…I have so many question. And Dan is very good at, you know, bringing me back. Bring me back, like, come on, come on. But I just wanna say, overall, your journey seems pretty joyful. It seems pretty joyful. It seems pretty full of confidence. I don’t wanna say “ego” in a negative way, but I wanna say you were buoyed by these experiences that allowed you to feel like math was a place for you to thrive.

Dan Meyer (18:36):

Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (18:36):

Where you could try out things. You could try it out and just, “I could do that!” Right? Like…your relationship just felt very, like…you felt like you had autonomy, agency, perhaps much like you, you operate in this world. Dan, is that, is that right <laugh>?

Dan Meyer (18:54):

Yeah, I think it’s fair to say. And without telling too much of her story, my twin sister with whom I share most things, including genetics, you know—she had a very different experience in math early on. She’s brilliant. She’s a doctor. And not, you know, the book kind of doctor that I am, but like a real, you know, medical doctor. She’s brilliant. But we were—we encountered different messages about who math was made for, early on in, you know, in our entire math learning. And she—we both digested the messages that we were sent, and took, you know, different, different paths because of them, for sure.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:31):

Funny how that works. I thank you, Dan. I do. For in all sincerity, I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that it’s exciting to hear how it influenced your teaching. It feels like you want to cultivate those experiences for your students. And I’ve been in the room when you’ve presented; I was in a room where you taught a class live. It felt like you were making space for the students to have these aha moments. And it feels like in your work at Desmos, and now Amplify, you’re trying to create these products that allow folks to recreate these amazing math moments. Right? And that it’s for everyone and that it’s accessible and it can be very positive. I feel like I have this new perspective on kind of the energy you bring to your teaching. So thank you for sharing that.

Dan Meyer (20:24):

Yeah. Been a pleasure. Thanks for your questions here, Bethany. And it’s been—it’s been fun to reflect on it. And I do—I do feel very lucky in lots of ways. Privileged. Lucky. I know, like—I think the world has been set up for my success in lots of ways, as who I am. But I do just…yeah, I feel—I want more people to experience what it’s like when you walk into a math classroom and it’s like, “Hey, this place is for you. You have interesting thoughts about this. Let’s get ’em out.” So that’s awesome. I would love to hear about you and how you…I mean, we have taught different kinds of kids. You know, I taught kids who I think were somewhat set in, they’re a little bit more solid at secondary in who they are as a math learner. Like “I know who math is and who I am with math.” And I’m really excited to hear what your math bio allowed you to do with students who were perhaps open to the idea that they are very mathematical or at least not yet closed off to those possibilities. So, yeah. What are some of the high, the, you know, the high and low water marks of the making of Bethany Lockhart Johnson, math teacher? <Laugh>

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:24):

Thanks for asking, Dan. <Laugh> I’ve shared aspects of my math bio because I think it really informs the way that I talk to people about math and think about math. And I like to share it because I want folks to consider their own journey with math, as we like engage with problem-solving and sense-making and thinking about the students in our classroom. My dad is a math and computer science major. So he had a computer very early on. I wish he had invested in Apple early on when he had like one of the first Apple computers ever. And, sorry, dad, but it’s true. I do wish you had done that.

Dan Meyer (22:10):

I’m sure he does too.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:11):

Oh, he does. So math and computers and conversations about counting, you know, it felt like it was kind of just normal. Like it was around me. And I went to Montessori, which is a private school that—oh, they have some public Montessori—but it’s very self-directed. And so we would have these kind of charts, these goals for the day that you explored. And so we would explore math in very, I don’t know, very organic ways, with these natural materials. And I feel like I excelled at math, but it wasn’t something that I was conscious of. It was just like, “Oh, well, yeah. Math, it’s, you know, something we do.” And then when I went to—when I left Montessori in fourth grade, I remember that year being a lot of like repetition. I was like, well, we did this. We covered this. And except for the mission project that we hadn’t done, that was all new. And that’s it. For another time I’ll share about that. But <laugh> then, they actually, I was moved with a group of students to the fifth grade math class, ’cause we had already done the work that we were doing. And so, it wasn’t that it felt like it came easily, but it did make sense. What we were doing made sense. And then it all kind of changed. There was a lot of change in my family. There was, like, missed school time. And we moved and I went to a new middle school and I was in this environment with students who—it was like an accelerated program. And so I was in this environment with students who were pretty competitive with each other. And I remember going—and I was not from of a competitive environment; like Montessori is not competitive. It’s not about that.

Dan Meyer (24:02):

Right. Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:02):

It’s—it was very strange to me that I would be competing against anyone, even competing against myself. And I, you know, knew how to set goals. But it was a different level of energy. And I felt like, because I wasn’t competitive in that nature, I felt like that kind—I felt on the outside of a lot of the energy. Besides the regular, like, middle-school feeling outside of things. And I remember the first friend that I made. Hi, Susan! She had said to me, this was like maybe our second week of school, she’s like, “Oh, at lunchtime, come with me to math club.” And I was like, “OK.” And I remember walking into that room and I had no idea what was going on. And so that was one of the first times where I was just like, “Whoa, I have absolutely no concept of what they’re talking about or what.” These are my peers. I felt very—it was very—it was strange. It was strange. I was like, “This doesn’t feel like a space for me at all.” When I think ordinarily I was kind of excited about the idea of going to math club at lunch, you know? And over middle school, I kind of just got progressively more and more behind. It started with missing some work and then missing more and then checking out. And, you know, the problem was that I really made it about myself. That, like, it wasn’t something that I was then good at or could do. When really it was that well, pre-algebra, I was having a really hard time in like the rest of my life. And so I wasn’t real present in that class. And so when I got to algebra, it didn’t make a whole lot of sense. And then if I missed Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, well, Thursday is gonna be hard, you know? And, it just got progressively harder and harder. So I had this great idea that between eighth grade and ninth grade, I was going to take this accelerated geometry class. ‘Cause that was the ninth grade class, it was geometry. And I would take it. It was like geometry in three weeks or something. So then when I entered high school, I would’ve gotten this like jumpstart. But I wish I had said, “Oh, I’ll take this, and then in ninth grade I’ll take geometry.” So like I’ve already kind of gotten a preview of the material. But instead I went to the 10th grade math, which was like intermediate algebra, trigonometry. I had absolutely no clue what was going on. And I had a very, very difficult time and I wasn’t ready for that class. But it was exacerbated by the fact that this teacher felt very free to let the freshmen in that class know that they shouldn’t be in that class. That this class was for 10th graders.

Dan Meyer (26:49):

Oh wow. Oh, wow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:51):

And we had a rather contentious relationship. And I will never forget that we were in the hallway, and he says to me, “You don’t belong here.” And I’ve talked to—I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine about her experiences with this teacher and she has the fondest memories.

Dan Meyer (27:13):

Wow.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:14):

She—in fact, almost everyone I’ve spoken with, you know, if we are talking about past teachers or, “Oh, what was that class like?” I mean, they just have these wonderful memories! And for me, my sense of like belonging was already so on a tight rope anyway, that to have this adult, this teacher, tell me, “You do not belong here,” just crushed me. And in hindsight, I think he was saying like, “This class is too hard for you.” I mean, maybe. <Laugh> But all I heard was “You don’t belong here.” And I extrapolated it to connect to math and to anything having to do with math in general. And it just got worse and worse through high school in the world of math. My next math class was even—I had to repeat that class, and still didn’t understand what was going on, and felt more out of place, and, you know, it’s one of those things that I just kind of had started to accept that, I guess, math isn’t for me. I guess I’m just not a math person. Or whatever these stories are that I started to create and build and find evidence for around me that was informing that this wasn’t for me. And I had always done well in school. I was in, you know, accelerated classes. I felt like I was capable of problem solving. And yet in math, I just felt like I had all of this evidence saying that I didn’t belong there. And so when I went to college, I took whatever two math classes were—you know, I was in performing arts and then I did ethnic studies as well. And I remember you had to take two math classes that were GEs. There were these classes that if you don’t wanna deal with math, you go take those classes. And I was like, “Oh yeah, I’ll take that. I’ll take that.” The gulf widened, you know? <Laugh> And I didn’t feel like anxiety when I had to do things like balance my checkbook or navigate math in everyday spaces. It was just, it would never occur to me that I would like seek out opportunities to engage with math or think about it or talk about it.

Dan Meyer (29:35):

That is—yeah, that’s just so wild, how, I don’t know, like it’s often, from the student’s perspective, it is them in a vacuum with math, and the two of them interact and decide if, you know, if they’re right for each other. But from the grown-up perspective, it’s just, you know, it’s a little bit clearer that your story with math was not just you in math, but you with, you know, various external things happening. With family, various teachers playing their different roles—sometimes, you know, really tragic and horrible roles—and then like the compounding mathematical debt that it feels like you were kind of building up, as challenges in one year didn’t get resolved and moved into the next year and so on. And all that makes me wonder—it makes me, like really, really scared, first of all, because I would bet that your teacher might not even remember that moment, that for you is part of just a pivotal moment in your math story, and how many kids have I played—have I been a part of their story in that way and wouldn’t even recall? You know what I’m saying? So that’s a scary part. And then also I’m just wondering, like, how can we, how can we help kids who are in those moments recognize that, “Oh, this kid is like absent a bunch,” and give them more resources to be successful rather than say, “Well, you just gotta try harder now.” Those are things I’m wondering, hearing your story. Thank you for sharing that. I’d love to know more about how you then became a teacher and what all that did for you as you helped students.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:06):

Well, but to answer what you were saying, it wasn’t that I wasn’t—I was always absent physically, but at least like mentally at that point, because it had become so difficult. It didn’t make sense to me. So I was just really checked out in math class, you know? So in hindsight, you know, as a teacher, for sure I can look back, and especially hearing these stories and these experiences my friend had with this teacher and just like chalks up as one of like her most favorite teachers ever! And you know, he clearly did a great job for so many students. But for me, and I think for some people, they would’ve taken those challenges and, you know, it would have fortified them in a different way or something. But for me, I took it upon myself to mean certain things about myself and about my ability and what I was capable of. And so I think, I think in some ways, you know, yeah, it’s all, it’s all interconnected. You know, when your students walk in the door, they’re not this—the things that are impacting them in their life are coming into the room with them. And I don’t think we can take that for granted and think, “Well, if they just focus hard enough…”

Dan Meyer (32:21):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:23):

So let’s go back to my love of Oprah. You know, Oprah talks about living your best life. And something I really appreciate about Oprah is that she encourages you to examine, like, sticking points, right? Like she doesn’t just say, “Well, this…just pretend nothing ever happened, and everything’s fine!” You know, she really talks about making time for reflection. And I kind of got mad that anytime I thought about math, or math schooling came up. Or, you know, whatever, any time that came up that I just felt UGH about it. And I felt like a failure. And I’m like, “You know what, what if I took a math class? And I’m an adult at this point. I’ve graduated. I have—I’ve left college. I have my degrees. But I said, “What if I took a math class?” So I went down to, the city college and I found out that you have to take this exam, like a placement exam. And I went and took the placement exam. And I remember it’s one of the responsive tests where if you get it right, the next question’s a little harder. And so I’m taking it, panicking, because it’s getting more like…I just, you know. And I remember it placed me in like, whatever, Algebra Something, this class that was far more advanced than I thought I should be in. And I was like, there’s been a mistake! You know, and I went to the counselor and said, you know, “I got these results, but I couldn’t answer a lot of the questions on the test.” She’s like, “No, no, no, that’s how it works.” So I go take this class and the class was hard. And I decided that I was just gonna keep showing up. And every day before class, I kid you not, they had a little math…it was like a math center where you could go in and they had a bunch of tables and you’d sit at the table and you could sit and do your work or whatever. If you had a question, you walked up and put your name on a clipboard and then somebody would come and help you. So I did that, every single—like before every single class I would go in. I’d sit there. I’d do the work. I’d go. And I’d get help. Like somebody would walk over and you know, some kid for whom they’re like this…you know, they’re math—it might be you, Dan! It could be you! It could have been you! You know, would walk over and be like—

Dan Meyer (34:38):

Yeah, I was in Help like that. Naw, it’s awesome. Love, love those people. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:42):

And you know, I did it. And I did so well in the class. I did exceedingly well in the class. And I said—

Dan Meyer (34:50):

Take that! Take that, everything! Every other math experience!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:53):

I said, what?

Dan Meyer (34:55):

Yeah!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:55):

Wait a second.

Dan Meyer (34:56):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:57):

And it was that I was present. I was not afraid to look at what didn’t make sense. And if something didn’t make sense, it didn’t mean there was something wrong with me. Whaaaaat?

Dan Meyer (35:10):

Yeah. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:10):

So I was just in such a different space. And then I took another math class and that class was even harder. And I did the same thing where I went to the little lab and, you know, and it just buoyed me. And it made me realize that, like, this story, that my experience with it was very powerful and that was a real lived experience, but that it didn’t have to define my relationship with math. But then! I decided I wanted to go back to school to become a classroom teacher. And I totally—this was a couple years after that math class experience. So now, you know, I’m healing my relationship with math through basic positive experiences, da, da, da, you know, doing other work. But fast-forward, for a whole number of reasons, decided to become a classroom teacher. And I freaked out. All of my—like, I’m studying for the GRE and the CSET and all the things you have to the hoops you have to jump through to apply to the masters program and the credential program. And I freaked out. I was so close to quitting, Dan. Because I was convinced that the reason I couldn’t be a classroom teacher is because I wasn’t capable in math. Like I was—it was all that resurfaced. And even though I now had evidence to say something different, to the contrary, it was still so visceral. And I was so scared. But I passed that Math CSET.

Dan Meyer (36:47):

Get it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:47):

I did well enough on the GRE—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:50):

Yes!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:50):

You know, I finished my credential. I worked really, really hard. I had to work so hard in my student placement, when I was student teaching for a fifth-grade class, ’cause I felt like, “Oh my God!” I mean, now I could do the mathematics, but I couldn’t TEACH it to someone, you know? But I had amazing professors at UCI, and my math professors really like just—and my mentor teacher! shout out to Jennifer! shout out to Phil!—these amazing mentor teachers who just loved teaching and who loved—like you said, you have these teachers in your life who you got to see the way that they listened to students. They taught me about that love of listening to students. And then I fell in love with, you know, CGI, cognitively guided instruction, and started learning all about all of these educators who just wanna learn from students’ thinking. And it was just so powerful. And I realize as a kindergarten teacher that I have this really special role in helping to create space for a positive school experience. Like we get to talk about—I talk about my students as mathematicians; they’re writers; they’re thinkers; they’re problem-solvers. And I also want to make space for parents. Some of them, this is their first kid in kindergarten, and they brought all of their experiences, a lot of it negative, that they had had with mathematics. So I felt like it was such an exciting opportunity to help show parents how they could have conversations about math with their students. That also, I hope helped heal their own anxiety with mathematics.

Dan Meyer (38:41):

Right, right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:42):

Like, I’ve not even scratched the surface of math learning. But I just have such a changed perspective and relationship with math. And I just fell in love with the sense-making. And I fell in love with the journey of it. I still experience math anxiety about a wide variety of things, but I do love it. And I feel like there’s a space for me in relationship with math. And that really excites me.

Dan Meyer (39:09):

Yeah. Wow. Listen to that folks. We, we don’t deserve her! Bethany Lockhart Johnson! She got some math game and could have gone off there and, you know, become an accountant or something. And she chose to hang with kids and their parents. That’s so wild that you’re like rehabbing parents and their self-conception about mathematics at the same time. I think that is so cool.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:32):

Well, thanks Dan Meyer. I gotta tell you, I don’t know when or if I’ve ever shared that much of my math story. So there is a certain amount of vulnerability there. But thanks for listening. And I’m glad that, you know—I think there’s space for us to talk about these things that we care deeply about, but that can be really complicated.

Dan Meyer (39:56):

Yes. Yes. And I love how you you’ve really sharpened the point on what I feel like I know in my brain, but not my body all the time: That individual teachers are huge. Like, individual teachers, and individual moments of teaching, are just not something to play with. You know, like that kid that’s in fifth grade having a tough time, like there could be a month or a day-long period where all of a sudden, like, you’re just like, “Oh yeah, I’m back in the mix; like, me and math are still buddies.” And there’s also like moments that you had, where like one casual word from a teacher can just really put a huge wedge between you and a discipline that needs and wants you and your intellect in it.That’s a really powerful testimonial. Not just for math, but for teaching, your teaching bio.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:43):

I agree with you. And I also, I also…you know, I think we can’t put this—we are human. Teachers are human. And so I’m sure there’s things I’ve said to students. Twenty-second story: a student stapled his finger in my class. <Laugh> And I remember holding his hand and saying, “Why did you do that?” And I wasn’t yelling at him, but it was like, I am sure the panic in my face…like, that’s what he’s gonna remember about kindergarten. Right? <Laugh>.

Dan Meyer (41:19):

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:20):

That. He will remember that. He won’t remember the really cool city project we did. He’s gonna remember his teacher holding his hand, in his face: “Why did you do that?”

Dan Meyer (41:30):

Yeah. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:30):

You know, so we’re human. And yes, it was awful that that teacher said that to me. There were a thousand other ways that he could have said whatever it was he was thinking. And that did deeply wound me. But despite his influence—because teachers do have a lot of power and I think they need to examine that power, ongoing—it still doesn’t have to define us. So I don’t wanna put this pressure, like—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:55):

Sure.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:56):

“So never ever say anything negative!” You know, we’re human.

Dan Meyer (42:00):

I feel like that kid is currently on some office-supply podcast talking about “your office-supply bio” and saying, “Let me tell you how I first got really freaked out by staples. Here’s the deal: I only use paper clips. And here’s why.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:15):

“Here’s why.” But then—callback!—he’s going to stumble upon THIS podcast and think, “And because I’m so adept with paper clips, I can beat that record!”

Dan Meyer (42:30):

Though—aaay! whoa! Settle down!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:31):

BOOM.

Dan Meyer (42:31):

Don’t get any ideas, kid. No way. Uh-uh. I don’t like that at all. That’s not what—that’s not what I want to have happen here. No, thank you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:41):

Well, I’m spent, Dan. I need a nap.

Dan Meyer (42:45):

Yeah. I need a box of Kleenex. I need a nap. I need a—yeah, for sure, a baba. Uh-huh. Definitely. Hey, so look, I’m not expecting you folks out there in the lounge to kind of give us the same depth or breadth. You know, we are here, of course, for your entertainment. Feast on our stories and dramas. But I would love to know at some point, like, what are a few, a few moments that really came to define you mathematically? Came to influence you as a teacher? I think we would do really well for each other to understand that about all of our processes. So yeah, I would just toss in a plug in for Twitter, @MTLShow, or Facebook, Math Teacher Lounge; it would be fantastic to hear from you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (43:24):

Thanks so much for listening.

Dan Meyer (43:25):

Thanks, folks. Bye now.

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What Dan Meyer says about math teaching

“Teaching, more than other professions, is a generational profession. The kinds of joyful experiences we offer, or don’t offer, now affect the experiences students that haven’t even been born yet will have years later.”

– Dan Meyer

Meet the guests

Dan Meyer

Dan Meyer taught high school math to students who didn’t like high school math. He has advocated for better math instruction on CNN, Good Morning America, Everyday With Rachel Ray, and TED.com. He earned his doctorate from Stanford University in math education and is currently the Dean of Research at Desmos, where he explores the future of math, technology, and learning. Dan has worked with teachers internationally and in all 50 United States and was named one of Tech & Learning’s 30 Leaders of the Future.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson

Bethany Lockhart Johnson is an elementary school educator and author. Prior to serving as a multiple-subject teacher, she taught theater and dance and now loves incorporating movement and creative play into her classroom. Bethany is committed to helping students find joy in discovering their identities as mathematicians. In addition to her role as a full-time classroom teacher, Bethany is a Student Achievement Partners California Core Advocate and is active in national and local mathematics organizations. Bethany is a member of the Illustrative Mathematics Elementary Curriculum Steering Committee and serves as a consultant, creating materials to support families during distance learning.

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About Math Teacher Lounge: The podcast

Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.

Join the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group to continue the conversation, view exclusive content, interact with fellow educators, participate in giveaways, and more!

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Amplifying Your District Award winner

This Amplifying Your District Award honored two district leaders who are driving change using the Science of Reading in 2021. Motivated by low literacy rates in her school district, Alli Rice dug into the research behind the Science of Reading because she was determined to increase equity. Through various events and Knowledge Builders for the teachers in her care, she then effectively led the shift to a research-based curriculum in her district. Read on for our conversation with Alli about her work with the Science of Reading!

What does the Science of Reading mean to you?

For me, it’s really about equity. Thousands of kids are already a step behind because of their skin color, their neighborhood, or their zip code, all of these things that really shouldn’t define their academic ability or their opportunity in life. I’ve looked at statistics around prison populations and illiteracy rates. Some, so many adults are functionally illiterate and they can’t fully understand. They can’t even read their prescriptions.

I also work for a district where most of our kids are on the lower end for socioeconomic status. We have a very high ELL population and 63 home languages spoken in my district. And we are the urban center of our area. Historically, we have been a balanced literacy district, but we have watched our test scores decline.

Since discovering the Science of Reading and this completely different approach to teaching literacy, I feel like I have unlocked Pandora’s box of potential. By addressing our core and aligning our teaching practices, our students can feel success and our teachers will, too. My teachers here have the biggest hearts of any educators I have ever worked with, and they work tirelessly day in and day out to support our students. We try to provide as many enrichment opportunities to all of our kids and to expose them to the greatest and the best. The ability to read, to me, is the greatest civil right. If we’re not providing them that, I can’t sleep at night.

What news, materials, or information do you consume to help you teach?

We use Amplify CKLA and Amplify Reading and those programs are just wonderful. I am also an avid listener of Science of Reading: The Podcast. We arranged for Natalie Wexler and Susan Lambert to do a live professional development session in our district, which was so fantastic, especially for our most reluctant coaches and administrators. Our district-wide LETRS training has also been life-changing. We currently have 800 people who are completing the training, which has helped to align the district and put us all on this path to success.

One particularly impactful thing, and that I rely heavily on for support, is my teacher cadre. Each cadre is about 14 teachers in the district and they represent all of our clusters. We’ve partnered up with our Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion department to do text bias reviews on materials, which has been important for our adaptations for cultural responsiveness. Our selection cadre came from that as well, when we landed on Amplify CKLA for K–3. The teacher input and camaraderie I get from my cadre is so instrumental and I am so grateful for them.

What advice do you have for teachers starting out with the Science of Reading?

Find your people, find your community. I remember Margaret Goldberg’s presentation during last spring’s Science of Reading symposium, and how she said you need to find your dots, you need to seek out like-minded people and go where they are. Find those people who are ready to make the change like you are, or perhaps have already done it, and can be that positive support system you need to make a difference. Don’t be afraid to message people on Twitter or Facebook or LinkedIn, ask about their experiences, and build that community around you. Find the ones who are going to partner with you, who will lead you the right way, who will take your calls. And read all the books!

Watch the Science of Reading awards show!

Identifying math anxiety

Can you do long division in your head and calculate tips in your sleep? Or does the mere thought of arithmetic keep you up at night?

If you fall into the latter camp, you’re not alone.

Math anxiety is real—and an established body of research proves it. In fact, data shows that math anxiety affects at least 20% of students.

And its effects can be damaging in both the immediate and long term. It can bring down student performance both in and beyond math, and in and outside the classroom.

Fortunately, we’re also learning how teachers can help students manage math anxiety—and succeed wherever it’s holding them back.

We explored this topic on a recent episode of Math Teacher Lounge, our biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. This season is all about recognizing and reducing math anxiety in students, with each episode featuring experts and educators who share their insights and strategies around this critical subject.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, associate professor of educational psychology at Ball State University, has been studying math anxiety for more than a decade. He joined podcast hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer to share his insights.

So let’s take a look at what math anxiety is—and is not. We’ll also explore what impact it has on learning, and what we can do about it.

What is math anxiety?

Math anxiety is more than just finding math challenging, or feeling like you’re “not a math person.” Dr. Ramirez offers this definition: “[Math anxiety] is a fear or apprehension in situations that might involve math or situations that you perceive as involving math. Anything from tests to homework to paying a tip at a restaurant.”

Math anxiety may cause sweating, rapid heartbeat, shortness of breath, and other physical symptoms of anxiety.

But while math anxiety has some similarities with other forms of anxiety, it’s exclusive to math-related tasks, and comes with a unique set of characteristics and influences.

Math anxiety can lead sufferers to deliberately avoid math. And this avoidance can not only result in a student not learning math, but also limiting their academic success, career options, and even social experiences and connections. This can look like anything from getting poor grades in math class, to tension with family members over doing math homework.

Parents and teachers can suffer from math anxiety, too. In fact, some research suggests that when teachers have math anxiety, it’s more likely that some of their students will, too.

What causes math anxiety?

It’s not correlated to high or low skill or performance in math. Students who generally don’t do well in math can experience math anxiety because they assume they’ll do poorly every time. Students who have been pressured to be high-achieving experience math anxiety because they’re worried they won’t meet expectations.

Other triggers may include:

Pressure. Pressure from parents or peers to do well in math can create anxiety, especially if the person feels that their worth or future success is tied to their math abilities.
Negative past experiences. Someone who has struggled with math or gotten negative feedback about their math skills might develop math anxiety. They may start to avoid or fear math, making it even harder to approach and improve.
Learning style. Different people have different learning styles. When someone’s learning style doesn’t match the way math is taught in their class or school, they may struggle and develop anxiety.
Cultural factors. When students hear things like, “Boys are better at math,” it can increase math anxiety in girls who may absorb the notion that they are already destined to underachieve.

Math anxiety and working memory

Dr. Ramirez has researched the important relationship between math anxiety and working memory.

Working memory refers to the ability to hold and manipulate information in short-term memory. People with math anxiety often have poorer working memory capacity when it comes to math-related tasks. This is thought to be due to the cognitive load created by anxiety, which can interfere with the ability to manage information in working memory.

The result? A negative feedback loop. Poor working memory can lead to further math anxiety, and increased anxiety can further impair working memory.

However, it’s important to note that not all individuals with math anxiety experience a decline in working memory capacity. Some may have average or above-average working memory capacity but still experience math anxiety. In such cases, the anxiety may be related to negative beliefs about one’s ability to perform math tasks, rather than an actual cognitive deficit.

What we can do about math anxiety

Even though math anxiety is a distinct type of anxiety, interventions such as cognitive behavioral therapy, exposure therapy, and mindfulness approaches have been shown to be effective in reducing it.

It starts, says Dr. Ramirez, with normalizing the anxiety.

“If you’re a student and you’re struggling with math and I tell you, ‘Yeah, it’s hard, it’s OK to struggle with math,’ that makes you feel seen. And that’s gonna lead you to want to ask me more for help, because I’m someone who understands you,” says Dr. Ramirez. “And that’s a great opportunity.”

Learn more

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S3 – 06. Bethany and Dan take on Twitter!

Promotional graphic for Math Teacher Lounge Season 3, Episode 6, featuring Bethany Lockhart Johnson, Educator, and Dan Meyer, Director of Research at Desmos.

In this episode, Bethany and Dan take a look at several tweets that caught the most fire on Twitter during the 2021-2022 school year. The pair answer questions about viral teaching methods, the best teaching advice you can give in three words, and if students should use pencils or pens in class. Join them as they take on those questions and several others in a fast-paced episode.

Explore more from Math Teacher Lounge by visiting our main page.

Download Transcript

Dan Meyer (00:02):

Hey folks. Welcome back to the Math Teacher Lounge. I’m your co-host, Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:07):

And I am Bethany Lockhart Johnson. And I’m your co-host, Dan! Hi!

Dan Meyer (00:12):

We’re co-hosts! Hey! Great to see you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:13):

Dan, this is the last episode of Season 3. Three seasons!

Dan Meyer (00:19):

It’s gotta have a cliffhanger. What will the cliffhanger be? You know?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:22):

The cliffhanger is that we love having guests! It’s one of our most favorite things, because selfishly, we love to talk to all of these amazing folks who are doing this interesting research and thinking about amazing things. But for this last episode, it’s just you and I, Dan. Cliffhanger!

Dan Meyer (00:40):

Yeah. I like this. I like this. So the cliffhanger was last episode, and people are all like, “So who’s the last guest gonna be of the season before we roll out into summer?” And yes, as Bethany said, we love all the fascinating guests we’ve had on throughout these last few seasons. And we realized…who is more fascinating to each other than both of us? You know, let’s talk to each other about things, right? <Laughs> You get that! You get that! Or am I alone here in this? We had this idea about what we should talk about here, and that’s this: I am on Twitter a lot. I’m @DDMeyer on Twitter; throw me a follow; might follow back; who knows? I don’t tweet much. Bethany, what’s your handle on Twitter? Let ’em know.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:22):

I’m @LockhartEdu, and I was much more active pre-mamahood. But I’m still up in there. Go ahead.

Dan Meyer (01:30):

Yep. In there. Yeah, great. So I’ve been keeping track of the hottest conversations in math education Twitter, the conversations that the most people who kind of describe themselves as math teachers in their bios and whatnot have been replying to. We’ve got some little things working in the background, keeping track of this sort of thing. And so we are gonna bring you folks some of those extremely hot conversations, and even better than the questions—which we hope you’ll reply to and tag us in your replies—even more than those questions, we’ll bring you our answers—our answers!—to those questions. Can you believe that? We’ll fully settle these questions! Won’t we, Bethany? My gosh, won’t we?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:15):

Jeez Louise! No! Dan Meyer, the point is not our final word on it! The point is this episode, we’re furthering the conversation. We wanna hear from listeners about what do you think?

Dan Meyer (02:25):

Right. You’re right. You all need someone in your life like Bethany who will help you become the best version of yourself. So here’s the deal. We have several questions in a few different categories. We’re gonna bust through some quick ones, pretty quick. And, uh, there’s some meaty ones as well. Let’s get into it! The first questions come to you all, and us, courtesy of MTL guest Howie Hua, who has a renowned knack for just creating math memes, but also conversation starters that really capture the curiosity and answers of of a grateful nation. So Howie’s first question, which I’ll pose to Bethany, is, “What’s your favorite number?” Bethany? And why is it your favorite number?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:14):

Oh, I love it. OK. Well, the first thing that came to my mind is 12. ‘Cause It’s a highly divisible number. I mean, 2, 6, 3, 4—I love it. And it coincides with the day and month of my birth. Which, like, the double-digit…come on, 12, 12, 12, 12. I dunno, am I giving away, like, my bank security code <laugh> or anything by saying that?

Dan Meyer (03:41):

Yeah. What’s your favorite PIN?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:43):

Let me change my PIN. Yeah, it’s just such a happy, happy number. Well, 12 is, you know, 10 and 2. Two more. Anyway. Love it. What about you, Dan? What’s your favorite number and why?

Dan Meyer (03:55):

I’m into it. I’m into it. I think I would choose 16. Because it’s the first number for me when it was like, “Oh, you can keep on making numbers forever!” Where I’m like, OK, 2times 2 is 4. Great. That’s kind of an elemental expression in mathematics. Four times 2 is 8. OK. But then, 8 times 2 is 16, and it’s like, “Oh, you can just keep doubling that thing over and over and over again!” And I can recall feeling pretty excited that numbers are just like, out there for the finding. For the taking. Cool stuff.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:33):

I’m sorry. Wait, I have to interrupt. You went 2 times 4 is 8 and you didn’t go 4 times 4 is 16? You went 8 times 2 is 16? You wanted to keep the 2 the same?

Dan Meyer (04:49):

Yup. Yup. You can keep on doubling. You can keep on doubling numbers and it just keeps on going.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:53):

More evidence that our brain works very differently.

Dan Meyer (04:56):

We learn more about each other…let me keep this rolling with Howie questions. OK? Howie says, “If you could co-teach with one teacher from Twitter, who would you choose?”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:06):

Oh, oh, it has to be a teacher?

Dan Meyer (05:11):

Or anybody, I guess. I mean, like, I know you love Oprah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:15):

Can I co-teach with Oprah?

Dan Meyer (05:16):

Yup, yeah, so there we are. <Laugh> Yup. OK. Fair enough. We have to work Oprah into every single episode.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:23):

I’d just love to sit and like, we’d read together, we’d read to the students, and then we’d talk…I mean, obviously it’d be Oprah. But if we’re thinking more of like MTBoS, like math Twitter blogosphere-land, I suppose the person I would wanna co-teach with honestly would probably be Allison Hintz. One of our former guests as well. Her book, Mathematizing Children’s Literature, with Antony Smith, that book—I just love the idea of sitting and doing a read-aloud and then diving into some juicy math that’s inspired by what comes out of that read-aloud. So yes, that’s who I pick. Allison! Let’s co-teach!

Dan Meyer (06:00):

<Laugh> Shout-out to Allison.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:01):

What about you?

Dan Meyer (06:03):

I would choose MTL guest Idil Abdulkadir—because, and this relates to Allison and also Elham Kazemi—they talked about, in our episode about teacher time-outs. And I’m choosing someone who I think is—like I’ve never seen Idil teach, but I work with Idil at Desmos and think she’s fantastic. But what I really want in a co-teacher is someone that I can say, “Whoa, time out, do you see what’s going on here? This is really interesting. What should we do next about this?” And have a little strategy sesh in front of the kids and no one gets freaked out by that. And I think that that’d be a pile of fun. Idil seems like she’d be receptive to that kind of interaction, teacher to teacher. So that’s my vote right there.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:48):

Opportunity for you to grow your own practice, Dan.

Dan Meyer (06:52):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. 100%.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:56):

So Dan, I actually have a question for you from Howie. If we’re on the Howie tweet train, I have one from Howie too.

Dan Meyer (07:04):

Howie had some fire tweets, some fire tweets this current year. Yep.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:08):

Dan, I wanna know: Do you prefer doing math in pen or pencil?

Dan Meyer (07:16):

Ooh, yeah. Oh, I see that Howie says, “I don’t mean to start any drama, BUT,” and then asks the question–

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:23):

But!

Dan Meyer (07:24):

I think that Howie lives for drama. I think he knows he’s messy. He lives for drama. He knows what he’s doing this with this question here. He knows.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:32):

DRAAAAMAAAA!

Dan Meyer (07:32):

He knows what he’s doing. Yup. So I would just say it depends. Is that cheating? Like if I’m doing math to learn, or if we are learning in that process, then I want to use pen, actually. I wanna see the tracks of the thinking. And if we’re doing it for presentation, like if I’m presenting something, I wanna…I guess that’s an area where I’d be fine to not erase things. I don’t wanna prep it so it’s, you know…I guess you could use pen for presentation also. Just pen. Period. But I wanna see the tracks of the thinking if we’re doing some learning versus presentation. What about you?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:09):

Well, I heard the voice in my head telling one of my kindergartners, “No, you cannot do that in sparkly pen. You need to do it in pencil.” And I was like, “Wait, whose voice is that?” It was one of my math teachers telling me I couldn’t do it in pen! Why couldn’t this kid do it in pen? Sure! Do it in a sparkly pen! So I wanna say do it in pen. And since usually pen is what I have around…I mean, I do crosswords in pen, Dan.

Dan Meyer (08:36):

Wow, wow. With a piece of paper and math, you have lots of room to re-revise and cross off…but those little, little boxes on the crossword, that says a lot about your commitment to pen.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:46):

I got really good at making an A into an H or a P or whatever we need. So I would say, “Hey, if you’re in the room with your kiddos and you’re doing math, if somebody wants to do pen, let them do pen.” But I do know that I’ve seen teachers say you need to do pen so that I can see all of your thinking. So I think I hear what you’re saying. But do you think it should be like a classroom rule or something?

Dan Meyer (09:13):

Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I’m gonna ask you like, “How’d you get to this destination?” And I wanna know process somehow, and I think you’ll get tired of having to explain it verbally rather than just, like, showing. Just don’t erase stuff. Don’t scratch stuff off. Let’s let’s see how you’re getting there. That is what I’m into.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:30):

Thanks, Howie, for that trio of thought-provoking tweets, because I genuinely wanted to know what Dan thought and what our listeners think. I mean, Dan, I gotta say: Howie, you say you don’t wanna cause drama, but I gotta say I’m with Dan on that—

Dan Meyer (09:50):

Got the gift. Got the gift for drama. We’re still friends though. So I’m happy about that. Our next section, I got a few more questions queued up here and these ones relate to advice for educators, advice for yourself. Good advice, bad advice, that kind of thing. So let’s jump in. I would love to know—this one’s from Pernille Ripp—I’m very curious, Bethany, what is the worst teaching advice you have gotten in your life, ever?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:19):

<Laugh> Ooh. OK. Um, worst teaching advice was: “That’s OK, just move on anyway.” And that was in terms of pacing. It was like, students needed to do a deeper dive and the teacher who I was chatting with said, “No, no, it’s fine; it’s fine; just move on. Just move on to the next chapter.” That was probably the worst advice, because no, I don’t think that’s what I should have done at all! <Laugh>

Dan Meyer (10:48):

Right.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:48):

But I was a first-year teacher and I was trying to figure it out. And I learned that that was not good advice. And I understand the pressure of pacing. But it was totally antithetical to the type of listening to my students that I want to do in my craft. And this teacher meant well, but that was not good advice, teacher! <Laugh> What about you, Dan? What is the worst teaching advice?

Dan Meyer (11:13):

I dig that. That feels similar to one of the replies to Pernille here. Frances Klein says, “Never let them know you’ve made a mistake” being particularly bad advice. You know, just this like idea of like moving along, covering your tracks, not backtracking or admitting mistakes, those all feel kind of a piece. The worst advice I think I’ve ever received, and I wasn’t given this often, but it’s echoed by a lot of the commenters here on this tweet, which is “Don’t smile until X, Y, or Z,” where X, Y, and Z are like Christmas, October, December, January. Just the idea that you’ve gotta develop—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:54):

Wait, what?

Dan Meyer (11:55):

<Laugh> Did you never hear this from anybody? Don’t smile until Christmas? Perhaps this is more—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:59):

I’m a kindergarten teacher! Can you imagine? If I don’t smile the second they walk in? The tears?! The parents’ tears?! The kids’ tears?! If I’m just like, stoic?

Dan Meyer (12:07):

Yeah. Well.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:08):

So explain it to me.

Dan Meyer (12:10):

Well, the idea is, is that, you know, for older kids, they’re scoping you, they’re clocking you for weakness, they’re looking at you, they’re looking to take advantage. And so “don’t smile until Christmas” is like, hey, you can always relax. You can always relax your discipline, but you can’t UN-relax it if you start out, you know, Mr. Happy Pants Meyer. Which—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:33):

Smile perceived as weakness.

Dan Meyer (12:36):

Yeah. Very obviously poor advice. Eventually you come to realize that like having a rapport and a relationship that is trusting and warm and demanding, that has high expectations, that’s the best kind of classroom management. Not some kind of persona built around intimidation or stoicism, that kinda thing. So, terrible, terrible advice!

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:01):

I feel like I did have a few of those math classes. Yeah.

Dan Meyer (13:04):

Yeah, exactly. <Laugh> You loved them, right? They were like your favorite math classes. It was a blast, right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:11):

<Laugh> So we have to ask the opposite. Thank you, Daniel Willingham, who said, “What’s the best advice you got?” But hold on, Dan, he didn’t just want the best advice. He wanted the best advice in three words.

Dan Meyer (13:26):

Oh yeah. He doesn’t, he doesn’t want a book or dissertation or even a blog post or even a tweet. He wants just three words.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:32):

I think maybe that might have been to me. <Laugh>

Dan Meyer (13:34):

This is someone who’s doesn’t have much time for this advice, wants it distilled down. I’m just obviously stalling here as I try to think about this. I don’t know, there’s just like so much nuance lost here. I would say, listen to students, listen to students. I can’t say more that, I guess. I guess I’m done. I can’t say more than that there. But you’re in a bad place if you’re not listening carefully to students. How about you?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:04):

Mine is “Ask…lots…questions.”

Dan Meyer (14:11):

Nice. ‘Cause I filled in the word! I filled in the word! I was able to kinda infer that. I did that. I got that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:17):

Wait, wait, wait, wait! I could have said many! Wait, I could have said “Ask many questions.”

Dan Meyer (14:22):

Strong, strong.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:25):

So yeah. You know, no isolation, like don’t put yourself in a bubble. Ask, not just, not just your students, but the teachers! Ask a lot of questions. You don’t have to have it all figured out.

Dan Meyer (14:34):

Into it. Very much into it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:37):

Thanks. Daniel. Thanks, Pernille.

Dan Meyer (14:40):

Yeah. Daniel and Pernille, Both great questions there about advice, best and worst. Another fire tweet popped up earlier this year from Dr. Khristopher Childs, which was “Name one thing every educator should stop doing.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:57):

Oh, I don’t know. This kind of ties into my best advice about asking questions.

Dan Meyer (15:03):

Stop not asking questions?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (15:06):

<Laugh> Avoid the isolation. I really love this idea of when we can, popping into each others’ classrooms, co-teaching, building this collaborative nature. Elham Kazemi, in our interview, talked about this idea of, like you said, the teacher time-outs, learning from each other. So I feel like if we could stop isolating ourself…and I don’t mean at lunch—sometimes you need to not be in the teacher lounge at lunch. Like if you need a minute, take the minute! But in general, as a practice, how can we not be isolated and instead be learning with, and from, each other? How can we stop the isolation? That’s what I would hope every educator would stop doing. What about you, Dan?

Dan Meyer (15:54):

I think that educators should…this is gonna require a little bit of elaboration. I think educators should stop taking responsibility for things that are not in their zone of influence. I think that as a society we are asking teachers to do more and more, to become more and more of a central fixture holding together with chewing gum and twine all the various parts of a student’s life. From their health, their fitness, emotional health, that we feed students at school. It becomes very tempting, I think, there’s a lot of pressures to blame outcomes, disparate and unjust outcomes later on in life, on teachers. And teachers should just flatly refuse. And to yeah, understand what the job has been set up to do. What it’s good for. And do that with excellence and intent and a lot of effort. And then not take responsibility for the rest of it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:53):

If I asked five different people about the definition of what a teacher should be doing, I would get five different answers. So I think it’s really interesting that you say that because yeah, many, many hats, which I think, yes, can lead to burnout. Can lead to all sorts of things. We’re asking schools to be all things to all, all people. Interesting. I’m gonna think about that more. I need to hear folks’ response on that, Dan.

Dan Meyer (17:18):

Mm-Hmm. I’m curious too. I mean, yeah, there are definitely things that are in teachers’ responsibility and some that are not. That’s a tough one.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (17:26):

OK, for help, name an example of each. And what’s something that you think every teacher should not and should be doing. ‘Cause I feel like my brain goes to some things like, you know, I had teachers who were saying, “Well, I don’t wanna have my kids have to have breakfast in my classroom in the morning. That shouldn’t be my responsibility to serve breakfast in the morning.” But I’m like, “But then your kids are eating and they’re gonna be able to learn and be more focused.” Should that be the teacher’s responsibility? I’m not saying it necessarily should, but I’m saying…I don’t know. It gets murky for me.

Dan Meyer (18:06):

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that we should, as a country, have a really generous social welfare net so that everyone has food at home. Where a school is not the place where some students have to go to in order to receive nutrition and nourishment. That seems sad to me. And uncommon in developed nations. I think that teachers should watch out for, should be responsible for, the mathematical development of the students they teach, up to a point, they should be responsible for learning math and creating relationships in their classes. I don’t think that teachers should accept responsibility for larger kinds of outcomes, like the health of a democracy or international competition, who goes to the moon first. That kind of thing has historically been placed at the feet of teachers. And it’s tempting when you’re a teacher, I think, to take on that responsibility because it kind of develops your social importance. And I just say, we should say no to that. And get compensation, not in terms of social importance, but rather like in spendable dollars and monies.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:10):

I’m learning more about you, Dan. And you know, this is what I’ve gotten from that answer: If you’re gonna dream, dream big. Right?

Dan Meyer (19:17):

Is that what you got from that? I don’t know. I think I’m trying to dream realistically.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:23):

No, like if we’re gonna say, “Maybe teachers shouldn’t be responsible for serving breakfast in the morning,” well, because we want every child to have access to nutritious and filling food at home and time to eat it in the morning, right? It’s bigger than just, “I don’t want the teacher to have to do this.” So we’re dreaming big. We’re saying this should be the LEAST that students have access to, right?

Dan Meyer (19:53):

Yeah. Yeah. I’m here now. I’m with you. I like that dream. Where we take care of folks in their lives outside of schools. So schools don’t have to be the one linchpin for every kind of social outcome. Like currently a lot of them run through a school ’cause we don’t do a good job of setting up other ways to meet those needs. And we should.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (20:16):

And we’re also recording this in, what, two weeks, a week, after a tragedy where students and teachers were killed in the classroom. And I think both of us are taking some deep breaths and recognizing that there’s a lot of debate that is happening about what teacher’s role should be in preventing this in the future. And I don’t know if you’ve done drills in your classroom that are supposed to help mitigate disaster, but you know—collective deep breaths— <laugh> is where we’re at right now.

Dan Meyer (20:52):

Yep. The idea of “we should arm teachers” is another example of no, we should not do that. We should solve the tendency towards violence outside of the classroom so that teachers and students can teach and learn. That sounds awesome to me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:06):

Collective deep breath. Whew. OK. So what else you got for me, Dan?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:33):

Ooh. So I feel like I’ve heard that in many teaching PDs. “I Do, you do, we do.” Actually I feel like I’ve seen like more “I do, we do, you do.” Like graduated release. I do it, then we’ll do it a little bit together, and then now you have permission to do it. And I feel like in directed draw, that’s a hundred percent true. Like I’m gonna show you this and then you draw it. And then you cut here and then you do it. If we’re trying to create this, like I’m teaching this new art technique. But in mathematics, I feel like that’s really not what I want my classroom to look like. I want to support my students and set them up for sense-making, and then I want them to try it out and I don’t want them to solve it the way it first comes to mind for me. I wanna see how they make sense of it and how they solve it. And then I want us to share it with each other so we can grow together. So I think time and place for “I do, you do, we do,” or “I do, we do, you do.” Or shoo-be-doo-be-doo-be. Yeah. You?

Dan Meyer (22:44):

I’ve got nothing. I have nothing to add. I thought that was just an excellent summary of a classroom I would love to be a part in, love to teach. I think it’s a certain tool in the toolbox that I think is overused. But it’s also a tool that can be useful in the case of certain kinds of operations. There are some operations that do benefit from “let me just show you how, like one way you might do this.” I don’t know. I’m like helping my kid whack a nail into a board and there’s a moment where it’s like, “Hey, actually, lemme just show you one way you can do this,” and do it, and then that’s helpful in some moments. But for so much of math, a lot of math does not relate to the operational kinds of fluency. And in those instances, it’s a little bit…it’s not a useful tool, I don’t think, for those kinds of skills and ideas.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (23:34):

I’m thinking of tool talks in my classroom. So in kindergarten, many of the tools that we use in math and just in class in general, are new to the students. And if I tell them, this is exactly how you should use this tool, then I feel like I’m taking a lot of the sense-making away from them. But if I introduce the tool, show them how to use the tool safely, show them this is not a safe way to use the tool, chewing on this is not safe. That’s not how we use this tool. This is how we take care of it, et cetera. But then support different modes of using the tool that are gonna help them use it to solve problems and make sense, I think…but I guess—Dan, have you heard “I do, you do, we do,” or is it “I do, we do, you do”?

Dan Meyer (24:22):

I’m with you. And I think that it got clarified post-tweet. But yeah, it typically is “I do, we do, you do,” the gradual release of responsibility it’s often called. And I, I have heard people do what you described, which is…what is it? It’s “You do, we do, I do”? Like an inversion of that? Like have people do a thing that I can do that’s not too, too abstract for them, and then like “We all do something together, and then I’ll offer a summary of what we learned,” is one way that goes. I like that tool as well.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:53):

I think particularly, at least I’ve seen in elementary classrooms, there’s sometimes this fear of letting students just try it out before I’ve really showed them, “but this is how it has to be.” And what I am most excited about is supporting students and creating a classroom environment where students don’t need my permission or need my direct “this is the only way to do it.” Instead, it’s like, yes, there’s lots of things we model. But there’s also like, “Hey, what do you think? How do you think this should be used?” And the joy of that exploration.

Dan Meyer (25:30):

Yeah. There’s a feeling of efficiency that comes from “I do, we do, you do,” for some kinds of math, but it’s undercut in my experience by what it cultivates in the students, which is “I’ve gotta wait until the teacher does before I can do anything.” So it pays off real diminishing returns over time. And it’s, just for me, an exhausting way to teach. Always being the bottleneck for new learning is a total drag.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (25:55):

Ooh, what a great way to describe it. You do not wanna be the bottleneck. You want to be…what’s the other thing? The facilitator? What’s the opposite of a bottleneck? The flowing river? The…The…Help me!

Dan Meyer (26:10):

Hit us up in the replies. I dunno. The opposite of a bottleneck. That’s what you wanna…you wanna not be the opposite? No, you want, yeah. We got this here. We’ll figure it out. We’ll get back to you. <Laugh> OK. Well, folks, those were a few of this year’s fire tweets. It’s been fantastic chatting with you—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:29):

Dan.

Dan Meyer (26:29):

—Bethany, About all those—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:32):

Dan. You know, my favorite thing to do is interrupting you, Dan. I have to interrupt you because we can’t end fire tweets, Dan, without including a tweet from you.

Dan Meyer (26:43):

Oh, that’s true. I do have my moments. Yeah, we should. We really should. <Laugh> Do you have one in mind?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:50):

No. Dan. Yes. I loved…you tweeted recently, “How many years have you been teaching?” Which, OK. “What Has been like the most influential? Like, what, OK, blah, blah, blah.” <blathering noises> You tweeted, “How many years have you been teaching? And at this point, what has most influenced how you teach?” And you gave some ideas: A methods course, PD sessions, curriculum, TV and movies, et cetera, et cetera. And I love that you put that out there because this episode is coming out as we’re wrapping up another school year. And it also got me thinking about summer and what teachers sometimes do during the summer, but what we might need to do this summer for self-care. But I’m really curious. I love that tweet. And I’m curious, Dan, what did folks say was the thing that had most influenced their teaching and what’s most influenced your teaching?

Dan Meyer (27:49):

Ooh, yeah. People’s responses to this one were really fantastic. I came into this, I was flying to the Association of Mathematics Teacher Educators conference. And I just found myself wondering, so, the pre-service year, the one year of, like, you’re learning how to teach, is how we did it in California. Like how much of that has still infused my practice? And in what ways? I don’t think I think about that stuff consciously, but I think that did like set me up with a lot of images that I would be unpacking for going on two decades now working in education. I think conversations with people, I think observing classes, I don’t think that like the one-day PDs, the one-day development days throughout the year, four times per year, I don’t think those stuck to me much. I think that this summer, I have learned so much, just an embarrassment of riches, from non-educational sources. From other disciplines. From storytelling, for instance. From how people have constructed movies I like. I am proud of the way…one of the aspects of my character that I’m proud of—it takes a lot to admit this, as I’m sure you understand, Bethany—but to integrate lots of wacky stuff and pick from it and use that to affect my practice and teaching has been really positive. So for this summer, I hope that people read a good beach book and just kinda let your teaching mind rest a little bit. And in doing so, create some openings for new ideas about education from other parts of the world. Kids! Having kids has been helpful. I don’t know! Just everything! It’s such a big job, education. Everything has so helpful. What about you? What’s an influence on your practice that might surprise me or other folks out there in MTL land?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:52):

Well, I don’t know about surprise. I mean, I definitely feel similarly, like methods courses absolutely impacted my teaching. But I feel like opportunities where I was able to observe other teachers and where I was able to have conversations with folks about their practice, that has deeply impacted me. And books I’ve read. I mean, honestly, I’ve learned so much from sharing with other teachers. Like, for example, maybe I’ll bring student work and we’ll talk about it. And we kind of create this conversation together about how we wanna come back to the students based on the work we see. Those type of moments where we’re collaborating and we’re bringing multiple perspectives to the table, that I think, has really often shifted me out of my first initial reaction or what I thought I was going to do in the classroom the next day. So that continues to surprise and delight me. And thinking about this summer, I think there’s a lot of creativity and joy that can come out of the marination process, when you’re just kind of sitting back and healing yourself, whether through sleep or sunshine or time with friends and family or whatever that looks like for you. I think there’s a lot of creativity that can come from that place of fertile, you know, wellness. I never think of that as wasted time. I think of that as getting the soil ready for all that’s gonna come in the fall. And that being said, I also think it could be a fun time to dip your toes into something that you are excited to read, that you might not have a chance to read during the school year that could be teaching-related. So it’s like very low pressure, like, “Oh, I’ve really wanted to read more by this author. I’ve wanted to read this article. I’ve wanted to dip into this topic.” And not with a pressure, but just with a curiosity. And, yeah, I think so often we as teachers love learning, and to give yourself space to learn in whatever that looks like can be a real gift.

Dan Meyer (32:09):

Yes. And if you need book recommendations, hit the MTL back catalog of episodes. Loads of folks that we interviewed have real good books out.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:16):

Yes!

Dan Meyer (32:16):

Think about it. Think about it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:22):

One quick recommendation: Again, gotta plug Antony Smith and Allison Hintz’s book. I read Mathematizing Children’s Literature before we did the interview, but this summer I wanna read all the children’s books that they mention. I just wanna go to the library and read all those children’s books. I wanna read them to my son. I wanna read ’em to myself. So, you know, diving into some good YA, children’s books, just, like, TLC. Dan, thank you for such a rich season and a chance to have so many interesting conversations. It is genuinely a joy to learn with and from you.

Dan Meyer (33:00):

Likewise. And always hope to see you folks on Twitter now and then. Let us know what you’re up to this summer at MTLShow on Twitter or in our Facebook group, Math Teacher Lounge. We’ll be there tuning in now and then. It’s been a treat interacting with you folks over this last season. Take care and until the new season, so long.

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What Bethany Lockhart Johnson says about math

“I’ve learned so much from sharing with other teachers… Those type of moments where we’re collaborating and bringing multiple perspectives to the table, I think, has really often shifted me out of my first initial reaction or what I thought I was going to do in the classroom the next day.”

– Bethany Lockhart Johnson

Meet the guests

Dan Meyer

Dan Meyer taught high school math to students who didn’t like high school math. He has advocated for better math instruction on CNN, Good Morning America, Everyday With Rachel Ray, and TED.com. He earned his doctorate from Stanford University in math education and is currently the Dean of Research at Desmos, where he explores the future of math, technology, and learning. Dan has worked with teachers internationally and in all 50 United States and was named one of Tech & Learning’s 30 Leaders of the Future.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson

Bethany Lockhart Johnson is an elementary school educator and author. Prior to serving as a multiple-subject teacher, she taught theater and dance and now loves incorporating movement and creative play into her classroom. Bethany is committed to helping students find joy in discovering their identities as mathematicians. In addition to her role as a full-time classroom teacher, Bethany is a Student Achievement Partners California Core Advocate and is active in national and local mathematics organizations. Bethany is a member of the Illustrative Mathematics Elementary Curriculum Steering Committee and serves as a consultant, creating materials to support families during distance learning.

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About Math Teacher Lounge: The podcast

Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.

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S4 – 01. Joyful math teaching with Kanchan Kant

Podcast cover for "Math Teacher Lounge," Season 4, Episode 1, titled "Joyful math teaching," featuring Kanchan Kant, described as a math educator and transformative leader.

This season on the Math Teacher Lounge podcast, we follow the theme “joyful math” and uncover its meaning.

In this episode, Kanchan Kant joins Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer to discuss the key, early investment she makes at the start of the school year to ensure her math teaching will be joyful for herself and for her students for the rest of the year.

Explore more from Math Teacher Lounge by visiting our main page.

Download Transcript

Dan Meyer (00:00):
Okay, we are recording. Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. (laugh)

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:06):
Hardly off to a rocking start.

Dan Meyer (00:06):
Yeah. Yeah. <laugh> Did you like my energy there? Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. It’s a new season with your host Dan Meyer. And…

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:15):
I’m Bethany, Lockhart Johnson. How’s your summer Dan?

Dan Meyer (00:22):
Summer for me feels really hectic as we prepare, here at Amplify, for the new school year, and everyone’s starting these new math programs. So I’ve been feeling quite amped up, like usual in the summer. But also, my kids started big kid school. So I’ve been seeing the educational system from the role of a parent and all the anxieties and I worry, will I be my kids’ teacher’s most annoying parent <laugh> … So what kind of math curriculum you using? Oh, have you heard of core counting? Can I lead a math center? What’s this worksheet about? I’m really worried my kids are just overall gonna hate my vibe when I come around their classes. Uh, <laugh> so lots going on with me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:06):
It’s already happening for me and I have a toddler.

Dan Meyer (01:10):
<laugh> There we go. Anyway, that’s what I’m up to. That’s how I’m feeling. I’m curious how you’re doing. We haven’t chatted in a while. We’re excited about the podcast, but it’s been a bit, you know? Bethany got a break from me and my antics over the summer. So, how are we finding you here, as we ramp up to the new season?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:24):
Uhhhh. Well, let me just tell you, I have a toddler. That’s kind of all I need to say. Except that’s not all I will say. Of course, I’ll say more. I am exploring, I’m dipping my toe into the extracurricular toddler activities; the music classes of the toddler world, the creative movement of the toddler world. And yeah, I have lots of opinions and lots of things to say about the teachers. And I’m like, Ugh, I can’t wait to be room mom. And just like…<laugh>

Dan Meyer (01:55):
Just let it rip, you know?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:57):
I have opinions on everything and just hope I don’t get kicked out of the class.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:05):
It’s been an eventfully recharging summer and we are ready for this new season. And in fact, we’re so ready that we decided that we were gonna mix up this season. Just a, just a tiny bit. Shall I explain Dan?

Dan Meyer (02:21):
Yeah. Let’s do it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:22):
So we have loved all the different topics that we have explored in the Math Teacher Lounge world, but we kind of feel like we need to do some more deep dives. So for this season and the foreseeable seasons …

Dan Meyer (02:38):
We’ll see how it goes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:38):
Let’s stick with this season. For this season. We’re going to be exploring a singular theme.

Dan Meyer (02:46):
We’re not bouncing around. Yep. We’re not bouncing around from a guest to guest going on whatever shiny thing in the river bed catches our eye. We’re gonna take one theme and see where it goes. What we working with here this season?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:57):
This season, we are going to be exploring the idea of joyful math, joyful math. And Dan, the question I have for you is, is the term joyful math one that you use on the regular?

Dan Meyer (03:10):
No, it definitely is not. I think that joy and math are very rarely, you know, connected in the popular mind. Number one, and number two, you know, I’m kind of an ornery fellow, so that’s not my natural kind of description of math. But we decided that it feels like an important one at the moment, because a lot of math teaching–a lot of teaching in general, math teaching in particular–math teaching is often not a joyful discipline for students, where, you know, I’ve done some research where you look at what people type into Google. And I looked at like, what they…why am I bad at X? And I looked at that for where X is math, where it’s science, where it’s reading, where it’s history. And it was just wild to see how many more hits there are out there on the Internet for “why am I bad at math?” People don’t really associate math with joy, but also we’re looking at joyful math in terms of joyful math teaching. Math teaching, teaching in general, is a tough field at the moment with a lot of teachers leaving teaching. And those who remain are having a lot of soul searching and thinking about, why am I here and how do I sustain this work? And in an environment that seems hostile to my interests or my talents, or work-life balance. And so that’ll be the theme that we’re gonna kind of uncover over the course of our season, talking to various interesting guests, including one today about, yeah, joyful math teaching and joyful math.

Dan Meyer (04:43):
And to help us think about what joyful math teaching looks like, we figured we’d first look at what UN-joyful math teaching looks like. It happens to be the case that we’ve been in a pandemic as you might be aware, and teaching has been challenging. And the NEA, our National Education Association, surveyed its member teachers and asked them the following question … Gave a list of issues that school employees have experienced and asked, for each one indicate how serious of a problem this is for you. This is a survey where more than half of members said they are more likely to leave or retire sooner than planned because of the pandemic. And this is almost double the numbers from July, 2020. It’s really hard to keep track of teacher departures and unfilled vacancies across states. So I don’t wanna like blow this up out of proportion, but it does indicate some real challenges in teaching. So Bethany, I was curious, what do you think like at the top of the list, like what kinds of factors, issues facing educators would you imagine there are?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:48):
So if I’m to understand you correctly, these are reasons someone is not actively experiencing joy in the profession of teaching. Like why would they leave?

Dan Meyer (05:58):
Exactly.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:59):
Well, the number one thing that came to mind for me, well, okay. Wait, wait, one other caveat I need to ask about, you said specifically pandemic-related or just in general, because if it’s pandemic-related, then I think, well, there’s health issues, right? That people are concerned about, but in general, the thing that came to mind was a lack of support from administration districts, lack of funding, and overcrowding in classrooms. Like, you know, I saw somebody had 40 students in their classroom. So those are the two things that I can imagine like top on someone’s list that would make them experience less than a joyful day.

Dan Meyer (06:44):
Yeah. There’s a bunch of you’re kind of identifying here. So number seven on the list is lack of respect from parents and the public, which is like 76% of teachers call that out as serious for them. Others that you kind of circled around in terms of resources go like, not enough planning or unstructured time in the job kind of ties into resources. Yeah. But there’s others that are on the list that I’m curious, you wanna take on the swing at it, given what I’ve said here,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:15):
I feel like too much being asked of them, like being asked to wear too many hats, like they’re being asked to not only teach their class, but also cover all the vacancies and supervise recess and, you know, make a delicious, nutritious lunch. That’s what came to mind. Am am I close?

Dan Meyer (07:33):
Yeah. Number four on the list, unfilled job openings leading to more work for remaining staff. People covering, you know, not just the kind of external to teaching work like you’re describing, but also just taking on like losing your prep period, to take on a class that has been unfilled for all kinds of reasons. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:54):
Yeah. I’ve only gotten the fourth. Give me one clue, one clue about …

Dan Meyer (07:59):
So, I mean like, so number one is general stress from the coronavirus pandemic, you know, which I feel like …

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:06):
I mentioned that.

Dan Meyer (08:07):
I’ll give you that one. Yep, yep, sure. And then number two, close behind, is feeling burned out, which I think ties into what you’re describing as well. I’m giving Bethany credit on that one. The third one is very different from the ones you’ve been describing. I think I cannot in good faith give you even partial credit for this one. I’ll just say it. Student…

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:28):
Wait! Dan, this is not how you give clues.

Dan Meyer (08:31):
Here’s a clue. It’s student absences due to COVID19. It’s really hard to deal student absences. That’s your clue.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:40):
That wasn’t a clue that you told me.

Dan Meyer (08:43):
Yeah, let’s see. I think that’s largely it. There’s also pay is too low, is on the list; student behavioral issues, on the list. And I think that about covers it. So all of that, that basket of items has led to more than half of teachers in this survey, saying that they’re more likely to leave or retire from education sooner than planned. And I don’t know. I think we all know teachers who have bailed.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:08):
I’ve never played a board game with you, Dan, but if we ever play a board game, we’re gonna work on your clue giving, ’cause I want to keep guessing. And you just told me.

Dan Meyer (09:22):
Yeah. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (09:22):
In all seriousness, the <laugh>. In all seriousness, I think yes, the stress of the pandemic and students being absent, what some folks are calling unfinished learning, all of those pieces do play into it. But a lot of those things that you’re mentioning on the list are things that are not unique to the pandemic, right? Like those are things that I feel like there is some modicum of control that we could have over shifting the way the culture of the teaching profession is going so that we could create a more joyful experience for educators, administrators, and students.

Dan Meyer (10:03):
Yeah. Good call out. That’s exactly right. We could tax the people who are not in the classrooms more and increase the pay to classroom teachers. You know, there we go.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:11):
Oh. Bingo. Why didn’t we ask you sooner Dan, for your wisdom.

Dan Meyer (10:15):
Yeah. I’m … solved by Dan. Yeah, good point though. So I read that and yeah, I think that there’s been some … people have critiqued the NEA for being very alarmist about teacher departures as the year has ramped up. It has not been quite the flood of departing teachers as was predicted and thank heavens for that, but we should still be very bummed if teachers are unhappy and wanting to leave and feel like they can’t leave. That is definitely not good. So we were really excited to bring to the table, someone who is just a very joyful teacher and one in a very intentional way. Someone who has a lot of discipline in how she approaches the job and the students in it and tries to create a joyful environment for herself, Kanchan Kant. Kanchan is a math and computer science teacher at Newton North High School in Newton, Massachusetts. She’s been sharing her love for math with her students for the past four years, while also being instrumental in setting the culture and ethos of the math department at her school in her role as the assistant department head. We welcome you on the show Kanchan to help us understand joy and math teaching. Thanks for being here.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:29):
Welcome!

Kanchan Kant (11:30):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:33):
One of my friends, her son was asked as his first math homework assignment to write out his math bio. And I loved that idea because we got to hear a little bit about your bio from like a broader perspective. But if we were to ask about your math bio, I will speak for myself to say like, automatically certain images flash into my mind, right? To think about my relationship, my evolving relationship with math. But I’m so curious if I was to ask you, what’s your math bio? How did you become the person, mathematically speaking, that you are today? Would you mind sharing a bit about that?

Kanchan Kant (12:10):
Of course I would love to. So I was born and raised in India and I belong to a family which considers mathematics to be extremely important to succeed in life. My father used to have me add and subtract license plates since I was four years old, when we were out and about. I loved math in school, it just made like complete sense to me. It was logical and you know, it was my favorite subject. I loved it all through high school. I had a confidence speed breaker in undergrad. When in my second semester I almost failed the engineering math course that I took. That was the first time math felt like too much and not like my best friend, which it was supposed to be. So it was a while before I could summon the courage to take on another math course in college.

Kanchan Kant (12:56):
But once I did that, it was like old times. I realized I had to persevere through the challenging bits. And once I did that, it started to make sense again. And through my journey, as an educator speaking to people from various backgrounds and like coming to the United States, I realized that math is challenging for everyone at one time or another. For some people that is elementary school. And for some others, it is college or even later. Either way does not mean that you are not a math person. When I was in college, I felt I was not a math person. Whereas my sister, my very own sister said the same thing about math in middle school. Both of us use math every day. And we are definitely, definitely math people. So for me to be a math person is to persevere, to approach problem-solving in a logical manner, and to find the joy in the process ,as well as the answer.

Dan Meyer (13:47):
That’s wonderful. Yeah. A lot of people, have a moment where they feel like almost betrayed by what they thought was a close friend of theirs, with math, where it’s like, wait, I thought we were tight. You know, I thought we were cool. You and me. And there’s that moment. And I wonder if that’s been a useful moment for you to, you know, bring back now and then as a teacher with students who might feel that even, you know, in high school or in a secondary school as a kid.

Kanchan Kant (14:15):
Absolutely. Like when I talk to students and tell them, yes, I had difficulty in math too. It has not always been easy for men and there are still things I struggle with sometimes, then it’s like more modeling for them that you have to persevere, you should persevere. And once you do that, it makes sense and you can feel successful. So, almost every year I end up sharing the story with my students.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:38):
There’s so much value in that, right? That you are sharing that vulnerability with students. And to say your relationship with mathematics has not been, you know, smooth sailing the whole way through. There were times when you had to work harder than others.

Dan Meyer (14:55):
Yeah. Really fun to hear about you and your father as well. I tried to ask my five-year-old to do some skip counting the other day, like, okay, cool, you’re hot stuff. You can count, you know, up by ones, but what about by twos? And the moment really fell flat. And I watched myself becoming the kind of parent who is whose enthusiasm for math is one day resented by his children. I feel a lot of, yeah, I felt your anxiety Kanchan, with math itself. And now I feel anxiety as like someone who loves math and loves to teach math and may one day alienate the people closest to him. <laugh>

Kanchan Kant (15:31):
I don’t like that future. I have a three-month-old. I do not like this future of mine. If I have to go through what you’re going through. Uh, oh, <laugh>

Dan Meyer (15:38):
You got this. So Kanchan, you’re going back to the classroom coming up here at the time of this recording. It’s a few weeks out. And we’re thinking about like the kind of ways that math teachers sustain a disposition that is joyful. How are you feeling right now, as far as going back to class after this summer? Are you feeling excited, anxious, some combo, tell us about it.

Kanchan Kant (16:01):
I would say combo, but more excited than anxious. I was on maternity leave, as I mentioned, before the school year ended, and I missed the students dearly. Like, my students are what gives me hope in the darkest times. They are thoughtful. They’re empathetic. They’re so eager to learn. And very soon into my teaching career, I realized that if I take the time to get to know my students and make them feel safe and seen in my class, teaching them math would be so much easier and so much more fun. So I’m a little worried about this being like fourth year into the pandemic, but let’s see. Last year I felt the students were finding it difficult to interact with and work with their classmates because they had not been doing it for so long. So I’m hoping this year would go a little better and I’m really looking forward to working with them and building community and see how it goes.

Dan Meyer (16:53):
So if I’m understanding you correctly, you are feeling very well recharged here. You had basically an extended summer with this maternity leave, basically just like a lot of rest and relaxation over the last, like several months. Um, if I get you here. So anyway, I’m glad for that for you. And, yeah. I also hear you on the difficulties of teaching post pandemic or mid pandemic. Anyway, thanks for sharing that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (17:19):
What I love is I hear you being so intentional, like thinking about those relationships and thinking about that community that you want to build, you know? How do you hope that you’re gonna cultivate joy in your teaching this year? I mean like, are there certain routines or disciplines that you specifically call forth or that you think other teachers should think about?

Kanchan Kant (17:41):
So at the start of every school year, I dedicate like about three to four weeks to set up the classroom culture, both social and academic. I call my classroom a learning community. We start with community circles, we do icebreaker activities, group building and all those kinds of things. But most importantly, we do a lot of collective problem solving. So I try to present students with problems, which can be solved using multiple strategies and have multiple entry points, basically they are low floor, high ceiling problems. These could be stretch problems that they have seen before, like concepts that they already know or logical puzzles, or just wrapping their heads around different problems. Then I have students share their strategies. The more strategies they have on the board, the more successful I think the problem was. Every year, inevitably, students come up with strategies that I’ve never ever seen before for the same problems that I do.

Kanchan Kant (18:35):
And so I have students come up to the board, they would share their strategies. If they’re not ready for that, they would walk me through their strategies. And I would write their name on the board with different colored markers and everything. Basically to give them choice and agency. It also shows them that the process of doing the problem is so much more important than just getting the right answer and that it is okay to make mistakes in our learning community. I use a lot of vertical whiteboards, some concepts and problems align so well with the vertical surfaces, especially when students can explore together, learn from each other. So I do a lot of that. As for routines, I would say consistency is the key. I consistently reinforce that I want to hear multiple strategies, that it is okay to make mistakes. I am willing to learn from you as much as you’re willing to learn from me. So all like that consistency in culture more than the routines, is I feel important to bring that joy.

Dan Meyer (19:29):
That’s super interesting. Thanks for that. So I’ve heard, I hear two common objections or two common concerns to using rich tasks or doing problem solving. And I think I heard like answers to those two common reservations within what you described there, but I wonder if we can kind of bring it to the surface. And so one of the reservations is around the time that those problems take and another is that teachers often feel like, well, I might be surprised, you know, I might not know what to do with what a student does. And I thought I was hearing like some very interesting answers to both of those kinds of reservations from you, but would you just surface those up if you have some.

Kanchan Kant (20:09):
So in terms of time, I feel if I spend the time at the beginning of the year, setting up that community and doing those problems, it makes learning the math and learning the concepts much more faster throughout the rest of the year. And even when I am trying, like, even throughout the year, if we are doing a warm up problem, as I call it, which has multiple strategies, that’s gonna clarify so many more concepts when we talk about those five, 10 strategies of doing the same problem, then going through multiple problems to clarify those concepts. So for me, it actually saves time instead of taking more time.

Dan Meyer (20:43):
Hmm. That’s super interesting. It’s an investment I’m hearing from you that, yeah, you might not be hitting the curriculum quite as hard early on, but that all of a sudden you’re in the spring and it’s like, oh wow, we’ve been moving so much faster through territory that has been more challenging. What would you say to you know, comfort concerned educators or to address the concern that I don’t know what I’ll do with these five, 10 different strategies. You say, I always see strategies that I’ve never anticipated. Like, it’s a good thing, you know, like you’re happy about that. I think that’s a very intimidating thing for lots of educators. What would you say to that?

Kanchan Kant (21:19):
I think like, for me, it’s a good kind of discomfort. That means like a student is teaching me something, which is actually doing two things. One modeling for them that I’m willing to learn and that I don’t know everything. And two, also telling them that they’re mathematicians. They know what they’re doing. They’re not just receivers of math, they’re actually creating it. So for me, that is very, very important.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:43):
I love that so much. When you think about your students and you’re about to start this new school year, how do you hope your students will experience math in your classroom?

Kanchan Kant (21:53):
So I hope my students can see the beauty and joy of math. They can see that math is a way to see the world and not as something we have to do to get through school. So my hope for my classroom is that we can learn to problem-solve and persevere through problems and learn from each other and not just get through the curriculum. Because like, I think math is a wonderful way to learn these skills, which are so important when you get out of high school. Most importantly, I just wanna make sure that my students see themselves as mathematicians. And like one of the things that like I have to share with you that, because one of my highlights for the year has to be the Desmos art project. I do it every year for the past three years, I think since I’ve started teaching sophomores. And I do it as a unit assessment for functions and my students design something that is meaningful to them, using all the different kinds of functions and colors and shading and everything that you can think of in Desmos.

Kanchan Kant (22:49):
Thank you so much for that though. It is such a cool way for me to see them do that. Like I have seen such amazing creations. One of my students once made a scaled working model of a solar system wherein the planets were rotating at relative speed. The Saturn had rings and they were like asteroids and everything. And then it was beautifully done. Then there was another one who did a very, very detailed whale scenery, her reasoning. I wanna be a Marine biologist and I wanna study whales. So this is what is meaningful to me. So like that one project is just a culmination of everything that I want students to see in math and in my classroom. And like I do more of those kinds of things, but that is one thing that it’s one of the highlights of my year.

Dan Meyer (23:32):
That’s awesome. I love hearing that. Yeah. Shout out to the team at Desmos Studio for building and continuing to develop a tool list that so good for art and animation, even, in addition to some mathematics with a more computational kind. Yeah, that’s really exciting. What’s interesting to me is that you teach high school, and I think that like students at that age have a very well-defined sense of what math is and who they are as mathematicians. And then along you come, you know, and like offer this really interesting disruption, you know, in their sophomore year of high school that like, oh, this can be totally different, this relationship who I am. And that’s just really exciting. I imagine it’s a very surprising year. I would imagine that first month, I would imagine is a very surprising month for a lot of your sophomores.

Kanchan Kant (24:20):
Yeah, it is. I mean, that’s why I take that time to build that community because then that sets the tone and the relationship that we’re gonna have for the rest of the year. Students get to know how to work with each other. They get to know each other, that whole piece is like super important because of that.

Dan Meyer (24:35):
Yeah. That’s awesome. So here’s the thing, like we’re exploring these ideas about joyful math teaching and what it will take to cultivate restore, reclaim joy in math, teaching this next year. And you’ve offered us these really interesting ideas some, some very, you know, philosophical and some technical about how you spend time in ways that lead to joy in the spring for you and your students. Love that. We don’t want to as hosts, as researchers, investigators of this joyful math teaching idea, we don’t wanna say it’s all up to teachers to change their mindset, to do different technical practices, and that will lead to joy. We also wanna be really attentive to the environment that surrounds you, the people who are around to support you, the policy makers, the social structures that influence your joy in very significant ways. So what we would love to know from you is, how are you supported by the greater educational community in keeping your joy in your work? I’m thinking, especially about administrators, you know, front office, staff, parents, even, can you name a few ways for those sorts of people who listen to this podcast, how they can cultivate a math teacher’s joy this coming year?

Kanchan Kant (25:54):
I would say trust. I think more than anything, educators want administrators, parents, the greater educational community, to trust them to be professionals and experts in what they do. That does not mean that we don’t want to learn, that we don’t want feedback, that we don’t wanna get better. It just means that we keep the wellbeing of our students as our top priority. And we would like to be trusted to do just that. Also just keeping in mind that whether we like it or not, we are still adjusting to the new normal while recovering from the worst of the pandemic times. A lot of us are recovering from trauma, a lot of our students are recovering from trauma, and we need time and space for our social and emotional wellbeing.

Dan Meyer (26:35):
Yeah. I’m really curious, Kanchan, you’ve done a lot of work in your area with your grading team and in thinking about equitable and biased resistant instruction. I’m curious how you see those efforts lining up with creating joyful math learning conditions for all students, not just students from a dominant culture of math doing, let’s say.

Kanchan Kant (26:55):
For me, creating an equitable environment in a classroom is most important because once you have that, that’s when you have the relationships, that’s when you have the culture, that’s when all students actually thrive. So to that end, our school and our department has been doing a lot of work around grading practices. We actually assess how we grade students, where the bias is, what we can do to make them more bias resistant. Should we move to mastery based grading? Like that’s something I’ve been experimenting with for the past two years. Through the pandemic, I started doing mastery based grading so that my students can get more opportunities to show that they have learned the content. And so like just little things which help bridge the opportunity gap. I would say another project that our school undertakes is called the calculus project wherein we have students in Black, Latinx, and low income families sign up for that and are recommended for that. And then we do summer classes and yearlong support to preview the material for next year, not as a remedial class, but to actually set students up for success in AP classes for the coming year. So we have the community buildup. We have the courses we have like math support. It’s a very beautiful thing actually. And I’ve been working with that program for four years now. So yeah, so those are my ways of creating more equity in our school.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (28:19):
That’s so beautiful and I deeply, deeply wish you had been my high school math teacher. And I have to say that the theme that I kind of keep hearing is this intentionality. How you are so intentional about your work, not just with what your students are learning, but how they’re learning it, how they are engaging with this subject and how they are building their own relationship. You talked a little bit about your relationship over the years with mathematics, but how are your students building that relationship? And so I’m just very appreciative of you sharing that with us and with our listeners. And we are so excited to have learned a little bit about, like, I feel like I got a little mini peek into your classroom.

Kanchan Kant (29:03):
Thank you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:04):
And can I say that if you are listening to this prior to October at NCTM Los Angeles, you will get to hear Kanchan Kant speak at Shadow Con. Can I give that away, Dan? Is that, is that …

Dan Meyer (29:23):
You can drop that. Yeah, It’s pretty top secret.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:26):
Can I drop it?

Dan Meyer (29:27):
Yeah. Do it. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:28):
Dan and I will be in the audience cheering you on. It’s been a joy to learn with and from you, and we are so excited to just, you know, kind of keep marinating on some of these ideas about how we can continue to be intentional about creating joyful math spaces for our students. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Kanchan Kant (29:49):
Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure.

Dan Meyer (29:57):
So Bethany, I loved hearing Kanchan talk about both her, just her joyful personality, but how she cultivates joy through craft and technique through, you know, through the various ways she interacts with students in intentional ways, that those make the job more joyful for her. And I thought it was really interesting to hear her talk about how autonomy is the thing that she needs most in her job environment to feel like she can be joyful in her work. In that context, I saw … something on Twitter popped up for me in my, you know, my many Twitter wanderings. This is a segment we might call, Dan finds something on Twitter and shares it with Bethany. Which we’ll tighten that up a little bit, but I’m sending this over to you right now, and I’d love to know as you check this out, what you’re seeing and what you’re thinking and we’ll chat about how it relates to our interview here in a moment.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:47):
All right. I’m ready, send it over. It’s opening. So this appears to be a document by the way, outlining, maybe it’s a district, maybe it’s administration, they’re outlining expectation type and expectation guidelines. Hmm. Okay. And these are lesson plan expectations. Expectation type. Timeliness. Plans are due no later than 6 p.m.. Friday prior to the week of instruction. Comprehensive, all activities for the week for all subjects taught should be included and complete by due date and time. Plans should have at minimum, the following, see template for detail. Okay. So then it goes through the things that the plans need to have, the topic title, target, the objective, the activities, the sequence, the display agendas to be displayed backward design. Okay. So basically <laugh>, we were just talking about, overwhelm. And when I see this document, listeners, have you ever received something from your administrator or anyone, let’s take it more broadly, that is requesting something of you that would take so much time to complete and be so out of touch with your lived reality that it really genuinely sucks the joy out of the experience.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:25):
So the first thing that I see that this document, and again, the goal of whichever district’s plan this is, is that these expectations will lead–now, mind you, I am a fan of like, you know, looking ahead, I’m not a like, oh, hey, what am I gonna teach in five minutes? No, but the idea that then it lays out all of the things in such detail that you’re gonna be teaching feels like one of those pacing guides where, oh, move on to the next page, whether or not your students have any sort of sense making whatsoever. So my first thought is, oh, sad. I have to stay here. I’ll be there past 6 p.m. But I’m gonna be there trying to make the plans for the next week based on what I think my students have learned. Hmm it’s sounds like a little bit of a bummer. Dan, what did you think when you saw this and did I do a fair description of what it is?

Dan Meyer (33:25):
No, it’s, it’s a tough one to describe, ’cause it’s basically a wall of text and commands from an administrator who like, I just have to imagine has just like acres and acres of teachers trying to beat down their door to teach at this school, if this is how you’re gonna treat your teachers. I mean just, yeah. The idea of having a week… I’m with you, you don’t wanna just like, just jump in by the seat of your pants, but the idea of having a full week of lessons for every section you teach, every prep you teach, planned and submitted with every minute, basically morseled out to different goals. It says down here, you gotta like, for all of these, download a CSV of grades and whatnot and attach those. It’s the sort of thing, like you said, there are some edicts that you get from administration where you just have to laugh or just like, you have definitely missed like what I am willing to do here. It’s so far beyond. Yeah. I can’t imagine it. And it just felt like, yeah, it was a great way to get teachers like Kanchan to feel like a real lack of autonomy. Like it’s this would not work. I don’t think.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:33):
And it’s not even like willing to do. Like, let’s say you’re even willing to produce it. Let’s say that me, the rule follower is like, okay. I’m gonna attempt to meet these demands. One, most teachers were just, you know, they probably would put baloney down there anyway. Not saying that I would, but I’m saying like, it’s clearly just a hoop that they’re having to jump through and two…

Dan Meyer (35:04):
Yeah. Compliance, right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:05):
Yeah. Compliance, compliance. There you go. And two, yeah, it feels like it’s about control and not trusting the teacher. And I love that. Kanchan said that trust is what she needs. Right? You’re hiring me. Yes. I still have lots to learn, but you’re trusting me and you’re creating an environment where I can continue to learn from and with my students. And if I was being asked to submit this tome every Friday before six, that is predicting, what does it say, anticipating the steps necessary for student mastery? You know, I kind of feel like maybe it’s like that one or two teachers where maybe they feel like, oh, I don’t trust that teacher or that teacher isn’t doing a good job, whatever. We better do this for all of the teachers, but then it’s not gonna change the practices of that one teacher and all the other teachers are gonna be resentful.

Dan Meyer (36:00):
Like if there was like feedback that came back to you on, you know, on lesson plans or there was some like something that was very constructive or productive, like maybe that would be different, but it really just feels like these are gonna go into a digital drawer somewhere and not be looked at, at all.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:15):
Yes. The digital drawer. Like I’m gonna send you this report and then nothing is going to happen with it. Except that four hours of my time. Well, you wouldn’t do it, but <laugh>…

Dan Meyer (36:29):
You’ve worn me down. You’ve worn me down. I’m now putty in your hands and more compliant for the next thing. And I also just wanna shout out the administrator today, who I emailed asking about like a teacher participating in a project and this administrator said, I have a standing policy not to email teachers over summer break, which you know, as administrators out there doing just the good work, you know, trusting teachers, watching out for them, trying to be a force multiplier for teachers, making the road wider, the way easier for teachers. So shout out to y’all doing the out there. Really appreciate that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (37:04):
Okay. Wait, wait. About that email thing, quick question. Did you ever check your email over the summer?

Dan Meyer (37:11):
Uh, yeah. That’s one way in which I was the, you know, I just love email, you know? Oh. Someone wanted to reach out. Oh, oh, Banana Republic wants to tell me about new clothes that are on offer. <laugh> I mean like, it’s just, I love those personal emails. So yeah, I did check my email over the summer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (37:26):
Somebody emailed me recently and they emailed me at like two in the morning. And because I currently have a toddler, I received the email at four in the morning because you know, the best thing to help myself fall back asleep is to hop on my phone, right? Like I’m already up trying to get my toddler back to sleep. I might as well start scrolling. Anyway, so the person had this little thing at the bottom of their email and it said, I have, something to the effect of, I have really like wonky work hours. I may be sending this outside of the like more standard nine to five. But please don’t feel pressure in any way to respond outside of your time. Would you appreciate that, seeing that or does it make you feel like you should respond? ‘Cause I almost responded at four in the morning, and maybe that says something about …

Dan Meyer (38:15):
They’re telling you not to respond.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:16):
I know it was helpful.

Dan Meyer (38:18):
It says don’t, but you’re like, what if they’re saying that because they really expect me to respond and this is one of many ways that you and I are different. I’m always happy to see that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:29):
Do you respond? I’ve texted you in the evening because you know I have some wonky hours. Do you respond to things, like where’s your boundary there? Or when you were in the classroom, where was your boundary there? Did parents have your phone number?

Dan Meyer (38:43):
No. I gave kids my cell phone number for a couple years and it was a wobbly experiment. But parents will email, you know, back and forth with you. And I think the best thing to like … I love just like adding some friction, some latency into the kind of the chain, you know, like I hate going like back and forth, like da, da, da, da, and then like respond and then da, da da respond. And it just like goes back and forth. So just like just sitting back for an hour or two hours, you know, not responding, just let someone cool down, calm down. Email just gets you more email. That’s like if you send an email, you are just making it more likely to get more email. It’s a, you know, it’s a problem.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:20):
Are you one of the zero people?

Dan Meyer (39:23):
My inbox is at zero. Most days before work.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:26):
You’re joking!

Dan Meyer (39:28):
I end work every day with inbox, at zero.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:31):
You’re joking!

Dan Meyer (39:32):
That’s just, you know.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:33):
Who are you?

Dan Meyer (39:34):
You know, you should take my life coaching, Bethany. I’ll give you a discount since we’re math teacher, lunch pals. But, um yeah. I can help.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:44):
Thank you for qualifying where our pal-dom lives. I wouldn’t even tell you how many are in my inbox. Point is, if you are actively starting the school year, we celebrate you and we are here and over the next few months, we’re gonna be diving into joyful math and that definition’s gonna keep evolving. But I wanna say something that is making me feel a little joyful, Dan. You ready?

Dan Meyer (40:15):
Tell me.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:16):
You and I, in person, at NCTM, the National Council for Teachers and Mathematics. It’s coming up and we are going to be recording Math Teacher Lounge, live. Live, in person! And I hear there’s gonna be like a t-shirt cannon and there’s gonna be, you know, like musicians marching through the aisles or something.

Dan Meyer (40:46):
A marching band?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:46):
A marching band!

Dan Meyer (40:46):
Trained animals. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:48):
But the point is, I’m so excited, Dan. And you know, when I see you, I might just, it’s been so long since I’ve seen you, Dan. I’d love to give you a big old embrace.

Dan Meyer (41:04):
You might just, you might just cry. Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be great. Yeah. It’s gonna be awesome for you folks to see me and Bethany have a real awkward first hug since the pandemic. And, uh, but it’s gonna be a blast to hang with us in person. We’ll have some special guests, probably, some interesting segments. You folks should stop on by at NCTM, if you’re gonna be there. Highly recommended.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:29):
Now, we will be broadcasting that episode. You’re gonna get to hear … we’re gonna record it live. It’s gonna happen. In the meantime, you can find us at MTLshow on Twitter, or you can find us in our Facebook group, Math Teacher Lounge. We can’t wait to hear from you. And we’d love to hear what makes math joyful for you? Where can we add a little bit more joy to you this, this season? So thrilled to be back. Thanks for listening.

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What Kanchan Kant says about math

“Creating an equitable environment in the classroom is most important because once you have that, that’s when you have the relationships, and that’s when all students actually thrive.”

– Kanchan Kant

Meet the guest

As a math and computer science teacher at Newton North High School, Newton, MA, Kanchan has been sharing her love for math with her students for the past four years. Kanchan is instrumental in setting the culture and ethos of the mathematics department at her school in her role as the Assistant Department Head. Kanchan also leads the Math Department Grading Team and has been instrumental in making grading policies which are more equitable and bias resistant. In her new role as a Transformative Leaders of Massachusetts Fellow in collaboration with Springpoint and Barr Foundation, Kanchan looks forward to making equity and joy of learning the foundation of many more classrooms.

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About Math Teacher Lounge: The podcast

Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.

Join the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group to continue the conversation, view exclusive content, interact with fellow educators, participate in giveaways, and more!

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