Juan Vivas (00:00):

But to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem-solver.

Eric Cross (00:28):

Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Juan Vivas. Juan is a supply chain engineer for SpaceX. His career in STEM has pivoted from chemical engineering to working on foods like Cinnamon Toast Crunch to his current role at SpaceX, where he’s responsible for his work on Starlink, a technology that uses low-orbit satellites to provide internet access across the world. In this episode, Juan shares his story of how he became an engineer and how a thoughtful teacher used robotics to inspire him. I hope you enjoy this great conversation with Juan Vivas. Juan, thanks for being here.

Juan Vivas (01:14):

Yeah, yeah, of course! Super-excited to be here.

Eric Cross (01:19):

Hey, and starting off, I kind of like to ask your origin story. We were talking earlier about Marvel, and your journey of one working for…what I consider the closest thing that we have to SHIELD in the Marvel stories is SpaceX. Like with my own students, we talk about SpaceX like it’s a fictional thing, and we watch the rocket launches together and we watch the recovery and it’s so cool.

Juan Vivas (01:45):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (01:46):

And so when I knew that we were gonna be able to talk to you, I was excited. Like, I felt like I was a kid.

Juan Vivas (01:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (01:51):

So I’d love to hear your origin story of you ultimately landing at SpaceX. And begin wherever kind of seems most natural to you.

Juan Vivas (01:59):

Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, I wasn’t one of those kids at from a young age I said “Oh, I’m gonna be an engineer.” Right? “I want to go and build all these things.” Where I grew up, and the social circle that I had, a lot of people were like doctors or lawyers. Just figured, you know, I’ll go to med school and go down the same path that 90% of like everyone else was gonna take. But in high school, I actually got into robotics. And, kind of like I mentioned, I wanted to do med school, that is what I figured I would end up doing. And then I got into robotics in high school. And I think that was what really kind of like changed my perspective of what I wanted to do, because basically these competitions were just—it was full-on driven by students. So we designed, programmed, and manufactured, like, the entire robot itself. And so through that I ended up doing a summer engineering program at the University of Maryland, the summer before going into my senior year in high school. And there we worked on a competition with underwater robots. And so we spent the entire summer, kind of similar scenario, designing a robot, manufacturing it, programming it. And then in the end it was like a competition in the buoyancy tank with different teams. And, you know, I think one thing that was really neat about that experience is that I got to hear Dr. John C. Mathers, who is a Nobel Prize physicist, speak to us in a room with, like, only 10 high school students. And just hearing his experience of where he started and the accomplishment that he’s been able to do, down in the STEM path, was really neat. And that summer was my final decision that I’m “OK, I know I want to be an engineer.” What’s interesting is I ended up choosing chemical engineering, instead of mechanical, which a lot of people, you know, based on all the experience that led me up to be an engineer, they asked me why I didn’t choose mechanical engineering. And I think one of the reasons why I chose chemical engineering is it’s very process-based. So one thing needs to happen, and there’s different inputs to that one step, and that step has an end-to-end reaction to it, right? So certain things need to happen in step one in order for step two to occur. And however the inputs happen in step one, it’s gonna affect the rest of the process. Honestly, very different than what I thought it was really gonna be. But what’s neat about chemical engineering is that it’s one of the most versatile engineering majors that you can have. Chemical engineering, because you work with a lot of process bases. Everything has a process, right? Everything needs to start with step one, and with, you know, step 10, whatever. And it’s all about optimization and improvement along those processes. So you can really take chemical engineering principles and apply ’em to different areas of a career, which is essentially the experience that I had in college. I had three internships with Dow Chemical where I did environmental health and safety, production, and supply-chain improvement. I then did research and development with Clorox. And then I did manufacturing engineering with General Mills. So really different job roles, different aspects, but same methodology applied.

Eric Cross (05:36):

I feel like there’s so much that you just said, <laugh> and I was trying to always, “I wanna ask him about that!” And in there, what I heard was there was a real pivotable, pivot moment in your life. Was the club…or was it a club, the robotics program? Or was that a class?

Juan Vivas (05:53):

You know, it was actually…it was VEX Robotics, specifically.

Eric Cross (05:56):

It was VEX! OK. Yeah, yeah. Really popular. And they still have it; I think we actually have some downstairs. So it was a club, and not necessarily a formal environment, where you were able to build. And it’s both collaborative and competitive, right? Like, there’s both aspects.

Juan Vivas (06:11):

Yep. Yep.

Eric Cross (06:11):

And, and then you had access to one of the only two facilities in the country that have these…were they buoyancy tanks?

Juan Vivas (06:20):

Buoyancy tanks, yep.

Eric Cross (06:21):

And there’s this book, Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers, and then another similar book called Balance. It talks about how some of these innovators, like Steve Jobs and, and Bill Gates, they had access to things that other people didn’t. So, like, Bill Gates, I think at the University of Washington, had a computer that, you know, no one else did. And Jobs had one at, like, Hewlett-Packard. So it gave you this awesome headstart, where you’re able to test things in a real-life environment that kind of transfers into real-world skills. And then a few internships, so like, internships and mentors. So you had these people in the industry or people who were front-runners that were able to pour into you and give you these opportunities. And so it’s really neat to see how a program that starts as a club, kind of a competitive thing that introduced you to it and hooked you, then led to unfolding all of these opportunities that ultimately led you up to being here. And there’s one part—in looking at your LinkedIn profile, there’s a couple of really cool things that stand out. There’s a lot of cool things, but there’s two that really stood out. So one, working at SpaceX, and we’ll talk more about that, but I wanna go to General Mills and Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Because Cinnamon Toast Crunch is amazing.

Juan Vivas (07:39):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (07:39):

And you were part of the supply chain for that. In my head, I’m thinking, OK, like, what is he like responsible for? Like, getting the cinnamon and sugar?

Juan Vivas (07:51):

<Laugh>

Eric Cross (07:51):

What was, what did your job entail, when you were running that?

Juan Vivas (07:55):

There, I didn’t even know what I was gonna be doing until my first day. It was just, whatever the business need is, that’s where you’re gonna be put. So this was actually a high-priority plan for General Mills. And the production line that made Cinnamon Toast Crunch was split up into processes. So you have, they call it the process-process side, which is like literally raw materials, like making the cereal from scratch, baking it, adding the sugar, and then sending it to be packaged. And then you have the packaging-process side. so I was then placed as a packaging process lead, for the packaging side of that production line. So I was accountable for two packaging lines that packed out Cinnamon Toast Crunch. And that is where—that was actually my first real, you know, call it “real job,” like graduated college, going straight into the industry. I was a process lead for the packaging side of Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Eric Cross (08:54):

So you went from cereal to rockets, <laugh>, which which is an amazing trajectory to have.

Juan Vivas (09:03):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:04):

And when you kind of mentioned, back in your story about medical school, and, you know, it’s kinda like, what you see people doing, and you’re “OK, this is what I think I wanna do.” And then we have a perception in our mind about what a certain job’s gonna be like. And then reality hits. I think a lot of—when I ask my students, “What do you wanna do?” They think, like, “lawyer!” and when they think “lawyer!” they’re like, “I’m good at arguing!” Right? And until they find—until they talk to some lawyers and they find out like what that career can look like.

Juan Vivas (09:28):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (09:28):

You’re not just in the courtroom showing off your arguing skills. But, like, an engineer, when I talk to my students about what does it mean to be an engineer, often it’s very linear. It’s “I build bridges,” or, you know, maybe cars, but you’re a supply chain engineer. And, and that’s something that I think, now more than ever, it’s probably an incredibly critical role, especially considering that all of these supply constraints. Can you—what is a supply chain engineer? And what does it look like in your day-to-day? How is engineering rolled into that?

Juan Vivas (10:03):

Yeah, yeah. I think that’s an excellent question. I, too, once thought that engineering was just “I’m gonna be actually making something physical,” and like being super engineer-y about it. But, to me, based on my experience so far, I think the best way to put it: An engineer is a technical problem solver. As a supply chain engineer, specifically right now in my role at SpaceX…you know, as you can guess, the supply chain in the entire world is crazy. There’s no raw materials anywhere, and nothing can ever get on time. And so what I work on is I help our suppliers develop processes to meet the design criteria that we set up for like a specific part. As my job as a supply chain engineer, it’s “Can I take this design and make it manufacturable?” Right? “Can I go to any supplier and can they actually make this to the tolerance that the design engineer set them to be?” Nine out of 10 cases, the answer is no, essentially, is the best high-level way to put it.

Eric Cross (11:10):

When you’re solving these problems, is it this iterative process of going back and forth? Or is it just this aha-moment when you finally figure things out? ‘Cause I imagine they’re coming up with a design; you’re going back and saying, “Can this be manufactured?” or “Can it be done?” They’re saying no 90% of the time. And then are you the one responsible for kind of iterating on this, or changing it and then going back to them and telling them, asking them, until you get a yes? Is that—

Juan Vivas (11:33):

Yep. Yep, yep. Exactly. So we go through a process called Design for Manufacturing, DFMing. And where I essentially take, you know, the design engineer’s proposal, and then I have conversations with the suppliers, and then, that’s where the iteration begins. Where we go back and forth, back and forth, until we kind of meet in the middle to have something that can be manufacturable. Most of the times, in my experience, suppliers will always tell you no, just because they always want something that is manufactured really easily. And so you just gotta learn through experience. Like, when are they actually telling you something that’s a fact, versus when they’re just trying to you know, get out of a tolerance, or that “all right, all right, they mentioned that would just like make their jobs a little bit more difficult.”

Eric Cross (12:17):

So I’m hearing like there’s soft skills that are woven into the technical skills that you also need to be able to have.

Juan Vivas (12:23):

Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, as an engineer—and this is something, again, that I feel like you can only learn through experience—you’re gonna see that it’s not just you working to solve this one problem. Especially for a supply chain engineer. You’re talking with marketing; you’re talking with an industrial design team; you’re talking with logistics; you’re talking with procurement, materials management—just a whole set of people that don’t necessarily have technical background. Right? So sometimes, depending on the audience that I’m targeting, I’m always very, very peculiar on what is my target audience, right? How can I—how deep in my technical knowledge do I need to go? Because if I just, you know, talk straight Engineer, they either don’t care or they’re gonna be really confused about what I’m saying. So there is a stronghold of soft skills that definitely go into engineering, which I think are really important to communicate, you know, to, let’s say, students that are really interested in engineering. So you can be extremely smart and intelligent and really good at problem-solving, but if you don’t have those soft skills that you apply in the real world—’cause in the real world, you’re never only gonna be working with engineers, no matter like where you’re at—so having those soft skills to be able to manage with different backgrounds and different sort of people and different ways of thinking, it’s, I feel, really critical, for, for an engineer in the real world.

Eric Cross (13:50):

No, I think that’s a great point. It reminds me of teaching! And so many other professions where your ultimate goal is to really pour into this person in front of you and help develop them and create a sense of inquiry and wonder and personal growth and inspiration. But you’re also working within constraints and people and relationships. You know, you have your other teachers, you have parents, you have administrators, you have a district, you have communities, stakeholders. You have all of these different dynamics that you have to kind of navigate in order to ultimately help this child thrive. Versus just, like, being in the classroom: “OK, I just got <laugh>, the hundred or 200 students, just you and me. That’s it.” But that’s not the real world. And there’s this report that came out, I think Google ran it, Project Oxygen and Project Aristotle, and they asked the question, “What are the most effective traits of a good team and a manager?” And the top seven skills were all soft skills. So it is like exactly what you’re saying, where, yeah, it’s great that you have this technical aptitude, but if you’re not able to work with other people, problem-solve together, work with people of different backgrounds and perspectives, then you’re gonna run into some roadblocks. And that kind of dovetails, like, looking at things like if you looked at education from the perspective of an engineer. So you’re all about optimizing, right? Optimizing, working with what you got. When you look at education, are there any things that you would optimize to help improve the experience of students? Like, looking back, that you would fine-tune, that you think could provide better outcomes in the classroom?

Juan Vivas (15:28):

You know, I feel…I don’t know. Obviously I’m not a teacher. And I’m sure teachers just have so much stuff going on. But I think just like, finding…giving a chance to those students that you see a lot of potential in and really taking the time to mold them. You know, I did have a teacher who was able to mold me and give me that kind of one-on-one personal experience, right? I think honestly to me it just comes down to mentorship, and motivating students on what, you know, they’re passionate for. Like, putting them in front of engineers, right? Like finding engineers to come volunteer and explain to them. I genuinely believe it just takes one spark to really get a student on a trajectory where they can make an impact in the future. So to me, it comes down to, really, exposure. How much are you really exposing your students to…you know what, something I’ve learned, when I joined SpaceX, is that Elon doesn’t believe—well, you know, there there’s a lot of things that Elon believes and not believes in; there’s a whole different type of conversation!—but he doesn’t think that you can just take a curriculum, let’s say, and just apply it massively to everyone and expect like everyone to be it. That’s just naturally not how it works, right? Students learn at different paces; they have different sort of interests. This is actually why he created his own school for his kids in LA, called Ad Astra. You know, if you take that mentality, what that school is doing is that they’re working at the students’ pace and at the student’s interests, right? And I actually have a coworker who has his kids in that school. And I mean, these are one of the most brilliant kids I’ve ever known. Like, they are taking differential equations in the eighth grade. And I didn’t know what differential equations was until I was in college already and they told me, “This is a class you have to take.” <Laugh>. But it’s finding that crossway where, where is the curiosity of the student? What are they really interested in? and exposing them to that.

Eric Cross (17:51):

Yeah. And what I’m hearing of that is, in teacher-speak, a lot of personalized learning. Like you were talking about…is it Ad Astra?

Juan Vivas (17:59):

Ad Astra? Yep.

Eric Cross (18:01):

Ad Astra. You know, every student learns in their own way and they develop knowledge in their own way. And being able to personalize learning according to the students’ abilities and needs, and then accelerate or slow down, really produces some amazing effects. I know this is something that we as teachers try to do with the classroom. Scaling it is the challenge. But it’s great because even with people who are in charge of policy or people who have decision-making ability, hearing people from the top down saying, “Hey, look, this is what worked for me. This is how I was able to become successful. I had a teacher that was able to be a mentor to me because they knew me, they had a relationship with me, they were able to tap into my passions and use those passions to drive me to do or put me in programs that I might not have known about because they, they knew who I was.” And it’s not one-size-fits-all for everyone. So having—maybe it’s curriculum or learning experiences that are kind of modular, where students are able to maybe try on different things and get that exposure, I’m a big, big believer, like you are, in mentorship. That was a huge, huge thing in my life. Having mentors. It’s the reason why I became a science teacher. In seventh grade, I had a mentor who had us doing college-level science, you know, at UC San Diego. And it completely changed the trajectory of my life, in a direction that I wouldn’t have had without him. So I think that’s great. And it’s something that we as teachers would appreciate hearing. Going back to what you said…earlier you said your wife is a supply chain engineer as well. And so that means that there’s two people who are process-minded in the household. And this is kind of a lighter question, but I gotta wonder, do you have the most optimized flow for grocery shopping? <Laugh> Because…

Juan Vivas (19:49):

Yeah, I think we don’t spend more than like 20 minutes at a grocery store. Mind you, we only shop at Trader Joe’s and we have a very specific list before going in. And if you ever shop at Trader Joe’s, you just know where everything is ’cause it’s always there and it’s small, right? But yeah, like we’re, we’re in and out in like 15, 20 minutes. It’s great.

Eric Cross (20:11):

I love it. I love it. I feel like I’m that way by design. I go in with a purpose and this is exactly what I want. I know where the cookie butter is, <laugh>, I know where my coffee is, and then, OK, I’m in and out. Apple Pay or whatever I’m using. And then we’re good to go. Do you think…so as someone listening to this or some people even just becoming aware of supply chain engineering, what advice would you give someone that’s interested in pursuing this career path? If you maybe reverse-engineered your process, knowing what you know now, you were gonna give advice, you were that mentor, what are just some kind of tips or ideas or thoughts or trajectories that you’d think that they should aim for? I’m assuming like robotics….

Juan Vivas (20:56):

Yeah. You know, I think I would say definitely finding some sort of program that exposes you to a lot of things that you won’t be exposed to, like on a day-to-day basis, or something that you just can’t be exposed to naturally at school. And mentorship, honestly. I was born in Colombia and my parents were both—they’re still both professionals, but they were both professionals in Colombia. And when we moved to this country, this was like December of 1999. My parents started from scratch, and so they didn’t really grow up in the States, right? So when it was my time to go to college and do all of this stuff, it was just like me on my own figuring this stuff out. And, you know, they definitely made some mistakes when it came to college applications and whatnot. But once I was in college, I knew that the best way for my success was gonna be through mentorship. And that’s when I joined the, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, which is a nationwide organization. And each college, well, most college campuses, have their own chapter. In joining that, I was exposed to resume workshops, mock interviews—basically how do you even talk to a recruiter? Which is so critical, right? And personally that that organization was really what molded my actual professional career.

Eric Cross (22:19):

There’s this theme that I’m hearing, kind of weaving through this. And in addition to—as we’re talking about STEM and technical skills, in addition to that, there’s this thread that I’m receiving of…being able to form relationships with other people, for our students, is an important skill to teach and should be taught explicitly. Which isn’t…it’s not really a curriculum, right? Like, you don’t get tested on your ability to….conflict resolution or how to write an email or how to develop a relationship. And then the other part in I think what you just said is the aspect of community. Through this organization, you learned kind of some of these hidden rules, maybe I would call it.

Juan Vivas (23:04):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:04):

It’s not that you didn’t have the…you had the aptitude. You had the drive. But there were these kind of hidden rules, and from moving to the US, you needed a community to be able to show you, so that you can kind of go through the proper steps.

Juan Vivas (23:16):

Exactly.

Eric Cross (23:17):

And so that created a lot of value for you.

Juan Vivas (23:19):

Yep.

Eric Cross (23:20):

Well, the last question that I have is, is just kind of a wondering. You have this awesome story, and the story continues to unfold. I gotta say, <laugh> I’m gonna be following your LinkedIn profile, because I think you just have kind of the coolest trajectory of going from, you know, General Mills, working in chemical engineering, and then ultimately it’s SpaceX. And every time I see the rocket taking off and landing, I’m gonna be thinking, thinking about you. So cool!

Juan Vivas (23:47):

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Cross (23:49):

And personally, I have a hope that one day, one of my students will be at a company, you know, like SpaceX or Tesla or wherever, and one day I get to interview them and talk to them and see what they say. But the last question I want to ask is, is there, is there a teacher who inspired you, or a memorable experience that you have that made an impact on you?

Juan Vivas (24:16):

Yeah, yeah, of course. It was kind of you know, middle school going into high school. The way my school worked, everything was divided from pre-kindergarten, whatever, first to sixth grade, and then seventh grade to 12th grade. So I had a high school science teacher, Ms. Brown, Ms. Velda Brown, who, came from a small little island town on the east coast of Canada. Somehow landed, in the high school that I went to, to teach science. Going back to the beginning of the story where I mentioned that I figured whatever, I’ll go to med school. I played soccer, basketball, and, you know, I said, “I’ll figure it out once I graduate.” It might have been like life science in the eighth grade or something like that. But then she went on to teach me chemistry and physics as well. And when I was in the 10th grade, she approached me and she asked me if I wanted to join the robotics club. And I remember saying robotics? I don’t know. You know, naturally, in school, it’s different sorts of crowds: people that play sports and people that are like in like STEM clubs or whatever. And I was, “Ah, I don’t know; I don’t know how I feel about robotics; not really my thing….” But somehow she convinced me to join robotics. It’s me, coming into this group of kids that already knew each other, and they were all working on robotics. And I’m, “Yeah, I mean, I guess I’m just here to try this thing out.” It was a thing where we met every single Saturday at like seven in the morning. And there were times where I literally had to choose, “Do I go to like a soccer game or do I go to you help my team with robotics?” And I completely loved it. Like, I fell in love with the aspect of building something from scratch, and just making it operative. And she ended up just being a huge mentor for me in high school, actually. With her, with the help of her, I ended up opening the robotics club at my school. And before I left, we opened it up to middle schoolers. And then, you know, later, years later down the road when I was in college, I found out that it was now a whole-school thing. So there was an elementary robotics club at the school, the middle school one, and then the high school one were still a thing like years after I left. And that was like just so amazing to hear. But yeah, it was Ms. Velda Brown, my high school science teacher, that really took her time to mold me and get me into robotics, and really mentor me. And honestly, I’m sure you as teachers, you guys probably hear about it a lot, but you can have a lot of power in shaping a kid by just telling—believing in them, right? She believed in me so much that I would go on to be a successful engineer. And I’m. “OK, yeah, yeah, you’re just saying it.” But she spoke life into her students up to this day. I still speak about it with my wife, and when I’m in conversations about this, that if it wasn’t for my high school science teacher, I would not—well, no, I would probably not be an engineer right now.

Eric Cross (27:38):

Wow. Shout out to Ms. Velda Brown <laugh>. Would you say she spoke…I think one thing that just resonated with me is when you said she “spoke life” into you.

Juan Vivas (27:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (27:46):

That was really powerful. And I think we as teachers have that power and we don’t realize it. Because, you know, we get so we’re so familiar and living day-to-day, but we do have the power of life, speaking life, into our young people. And, yeah, that was—

Juan Vivas (28:03):

Absolutely, yeah. You know, I think obviously people grew up with different backgrounds, different communities, life situations, right? So imagine having like a student that is similar in that environment and then they just hear someone at their school, like, “Hey, you’re really good at this. why don’t you consider doing this?” And that’s when I feel teachers have that power. Where like they don’t necessarily know the background, but they can make that opportunity, or make that decision in the moment, to really shape a student’s life.

Eric Cross (28:37):

And we need to hear that. And I think, I hope that other teachers listening to this will be reminded that many times we don’t get to reap the harvest. We don’t get to see the <laugh> Juan Vivases at SpaceX. They just kind of go, and they disappear, and we hope for the best, and we get a new group. But every once in a while they come back, and we get to see what our watering or seed-planting was able to produce. And so, just know that you sharing your story for educators, and for definitely Ms. Brown, makes a huge difference and is a huge encouragement. So.

Juan Vivas (29:11):

You know, I think we touched on earlier, you know, how do I end up going from cereal to rockets, right? And I think it ties along with what I mentioned earlier of just taking—as an engineer, you’re really a critical problem solver, right? And you think that methodology. And if you find a way, you can apply it to different sectors. When I was doing a lot of like the packaging process stuff at General Mills, being a lead on a high-volume manufacturing line, what I do for SpaceX specifically, right now, I’m actually on the Starlink project. So if you’re up to date with Starlink, it’s, it’s essentially high reliable, fast internet that we’re providing to areas where usually people don’t have access to internet, right? Or maybe they do, but it’s extremely expensive. Because to an internet provider company, the benefit is not there, if they extend an entire internet fiber line out to their place because it’s only directed to them, right? So that’s, that’s essentially what Starlink is trying to solve. And this is the first time that SpaceX is facing a consumer packaging scenario. Before it was just rockets. And now they’re selling a product to consumers. They had never done that before, especially in a high-volume manufacturing setting. And so I am the supplier development engineer for all the consumer-facing packaging for the Starlink product itself. And that’s essentially how all those thoughts connected, where I had this experience coming from General Mills and packaging high-volume manufacturing. And then when Starlink started, they’re all, “Right, well, who knows anything about packaging?” Right? “We know so much about rockets, we need someone with this technical background.” And that’s essentially how I bridge over to SpaceX.

Eric Cross (31:11):

And so while you’re working at SpaceX, you’re working on Starlink, which I know you mentioned that—you said that it’s providing internet globally, which in and of itself, we—especially those of us that live in major cities—we kind of take for granted. Internet is like a utility. But we don’t maybe realize that in many parts of the world, internet is not reliable or even accessible.

Juan Vivas (31:33):

Right. Right.

Eric Cross (31:34):

I see every once in a while, I think, the StarlinK satellites sometimes are visible?

Juan Vivas (31:38):

Yep.

Eric Cross (31:39):

Low orbit?

Juan Vivas (31:39):

Yeah. Yeah. You can go—they’ll kind of be like a little train of bright stars that move along together. Yep.

Eric Cross (31:46):

And that must—that must feel…I mean, we all have jobs and we’re all doing different things, but you’re working on a project and you’re engineering something that actually can provide a lot of opportunities or close a gap in some parts of the world where they don’t have access to internet. They’re gonna be able to have access and be connected all over. I dunno, the word would be “existential.” Existential value. Like, what you’re doing is actually providing a service for people. Humanity. Like, addressing a critical need in many, many places around the world.

Juan Vivas (32:26):

Yeah. We’ve had stories where we have sent Starlink kids to a small school in a village in rural Chile, right in South America. And for the first time ever, they’ve had internet. We have supported disaster relief in Europe. I think this past summer, Europe had really bad floods. We sent Starlink kits out there. You know, the vision of working at an Elon Musk company and SpaceX and Starlink—this is all stuff that is being done for the first time in history. We have never, ever done anything like this before until now. And to be able to provide those that don’t have the access to—to your point, it’s kind of wild, right? Like we, we just take it for granted. “Oh yeah, I just have internet. Let me log on.” There are people on Earth right now that have never been on the internet. Or don’t even know what the internet is. And that’s essentially the, the gap that Startlink is starting to close.

Eric Cross (33:26):

Yeah. We think about that while my students are doing TikTok dances. <Laugh> And there are people who, you know, never, never been connected. And, it kind of makes me more like, just inside, if I can ask: What’s it like working at SpaceX? I showed my students what it’s like working at some of the Silicon Valley companies. ‘Cause just to show them there’s slides and food and, you know, they kind developed this ecosystem inside so that it’s really kind of homey to kind of keep you there, you know. When you’re working and there’s bikes and things like that. And that’s a very Silicon Valley type of thing. But, you know, in listening to you talk about SpaceX and Elon, you know, you’re with a really visionary kind of company, and when I hear you talk about it, there’s I can hear this passion, this, “we’re doing something.” Is that culture, like, pervasive everywhere? Are you around folks that kind of are on that same wavelength? Because I definitely get it from you as you talk about what you do.

Juan Vivas (34:28):

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. I think, as an engineer, you know, going to SpaceX and working at SpaceX, it’s essentially—personally, I believe right now in the US it’s like the mecca of engineering, right? Like, it is where engineering in this most, you know, shape and manner, it’s being applied. I think what’s really interesting is that the way that Elon looks at it is just iterate, and iterate fast, right? Like, fail and fail fast. I think as an engineer, you always want to have things perfect, right? And so you spend a lot of time in making a decision or investigating something or whatever. And working at SpaceX is the complete opposite. It’s just you know, “Assume, state your assumptions—like, what are you assuming right now? What are the risk at it? And just make a decision and then see what the result is.” You know, so it’s an environment where you learn, really quick.

Eric Cross (35:28):

You said something that I think was powerful and I hope, I think <laugh>, this is definitely, I’m gonna get a clip of this <laugh> of you saying it. Because it speaks directly to, I think, what a lot of students struggle with in the classroom, is there’s this competition or feeling that you always need to be right. And you need to be right the first try, on the first time. And a lot of times it’s because students will compare themselves to each other, or there’s a tremendous amount of pressure to be successful. But you said, “Fail and fail fast, iterate, state your assumptions.” And it sounds like this critical part of being an engineer or in what you do, like there’s no room for ego or attaching your identity or your sense of value or worth or ability to whether you’re able to solve a problem in the first try.

Juan Vivas (36:13):

Yep.

Eric Cross (36:14):

Like, you have to be OK with the cycle, is kind of what I’m hearing from you. Is that, is that right?

Juan Vivas (36:19):

Yep. Exactly. It only took six months to develop the product from scratch and launch it to the public, which is insane. Nowhere in the world will any company ever iterate that fast and come up with a brand-new project. But it’s because of that mentality—like you’re saying, it’s not about like just trying to make it perfect and have all this information. And I think Elon has learned this personally, you know, through Tesla and the beginning of SpaceX. It’s, “I can wait to have all this information, and most likely I’m still gonna be wrong after I make the decision.” So it’s, “Might as well take the risk, do the decision, and then just see where you learn from it, right?” And then you keep applying that, applying that. So it’s like you iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate until you get what you want.

Eric Cross (37:00):

I think this is even, like, great advice. I’m taking this personally because I get paralysis by analysis <laugh>.

Juan Vivas (37:06):

Yep.

Eric Cross (37:07):

You know, I’ll research something to death but then not actually execute. Like, I need to make a decision and do it and then course-correct along the way. Somebody once told me it’s a lot easier to turn a moving car than it is a car that’s sitting still. And so as you’re kind of flowing, you’re just making these adjustments along the way until you end up on the path that you want to be. So I think that there’s so many gems in the things that you’re saying right now. What I’m thinking through the lens of my seventh graders that want to work in any STEM field—I mean, really, any field in general, but especially engineering, especially the STEM fields—knowing that, pick it, make a decision, move forward, and then course-correct along the way. That’s what science looks like in the real world.

Juan Vivas (37:49):

Yep. Exactly. Yep. And definitely most important—and I feel like this is sometimes where, not necessarily education in general, but it’s just, we want students to, “OK, you need to get it right the perfect time, right?” But it’s like, every student is gonna think differently. A student is gonna take a different assumption based on their background and experiences. And I mean, you know, we can go a lot deeper in that, but the way a student is shaped, they’re gonna take certain assumptions. So that’s where it gets interesting. OK, why are you assuming that? Where’s your thought process in this?

Eric Cross (38:25):

And we all come from different backgrounds and mindsets and filters and biases that cause us to look at something a certain way. And it’s not just like calling it out, just going, “Hey look, this is what it is.” Like autopsy without blame, this is what I’m working with. Let’s discuss it openly. Right? And if we started that process earlier, you know, younger, in classrooms, we can de-stigmatize the right answer being the best answer more, as opposed to focusing on process as opposed to outcome. And then you kinda get used to wanting to go through the process. I look at it like video games and I talk to my students. I say, “You know, you don’t pick up a video game that’s brand-new and then play it and then you die once and you’re ‘Ah, I’m never gonna play this game again.’ You know, it just doesn’t work that way. You’re going through this iterative process, and no matter what you play, you’re trying things differently. You’re data collecting. And then you’re making new decisions based on the data that you collected.” And for some of my kids, they’ll just raise their hands, say, “No, I just get mad and throw the controller across the room.” <Laugh> But I go, “Yeah, and then you’ll try it again.”

Juan Vivas (39:33):

The best way to know how not to do something is to fail. And so you already…I mean, what is that famous quote? I think that’s why Thomas Edison’s, “Oh, I, did not fail 99 times. Right? I only found 99 times…” I mean, that is that is true. And I feel like at work in a SpaceX, that is something that probably the core of it comes from there. It’s you know, any failure, quote unquote, that you may take it as a failure, it’s really not. You’re just “OK, we, we tried that. It didn’t work. Like what are we gonna do next?” So it’s just like taking that learning and like moving off with it quickly.

Eric Cross (40:09):

I heard a couple of teachers say, “Things fail: First Attempt In Learning: F A I L.” And then another teacher, one of my mentor teachers, she said, “There’s no such thing as failure, just data, in science.”

Juan Vivas (40:20):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Exactly. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:23):

And so I’ve always taken that to heart. And I share that with my own students, just, “A ‘no,’ a lot of times, will tell you more information than a ‘yes.’” ‘Cause if something works in the first try, you may not exactly know why it worked. It just did.

Juan Vivas (40:34):

Yeah. Yep.

Eric Cross (40:37):

So yeah. Well, I went on your time, brother. Dude. <laugh>. The time flew. It was…

Juan Vivas (40:46):

Yeah.

Eric Cross (40:47):

There were so many things I was trying to write out as you were talking, that I just felt like, “This guy is sharing so many gems!” But yeah, I want to thank you for taking time outta your day and for sharing that information for your passion for what you do. And, I don’t know, I think that students and teachers that listen to this will get an insight from a perspective that really matters. ‘Cause ultimately we’re, we’re trying to really prepare our students for real life. Maybe I’ll email you privately if I order a Tesla, if you can move me higher up the Cybertruck line. <laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:22):

Yeah. No promises.

Eric Cross (41:24):

<laugh>

Juan Vivas (41:25):

Yeah. No, I appreciate you guys having me, having me here, and be able to speak on my experience. And hopefully it sparks a couple, one, even if it’s just one teacher that will spark another student, that is already success there. So.

Eric Cross (41:42):

Well I know, I know what you said resonates with me and it fills my cup. And I’m excited. So I’m already thinking of some ideas of things that I can do, just because of this conversation, and I know other people will as well. And, again, this is Juan Vivas, who’s a supply development engineer at SpaceX. He’s worked at some amazing places. And someone who believes deeply in not only the power of the technical skills, but the heart skills, and how community makes a huge impact in his life. It made a huge impact in him ultimately becoming a scientist, and now working on a project at SpaceX, Starlink, that is going to provide access to the world, to the web. And that’ll ultimately help us solve more problems and innovate and create some solutions that will benefit everybody. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

Juan Vivas (42:30):

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Eric. Appreciate it.

Joe McCormick (00:00):
Being disabled. It’s like trying to find some way to be flexible and find some workaround. There’s always a way to get there. It’s just going to be maybe a little bit different or a little out of the box.

Eric Cross (00:12):
Welcome to science connections. I’m your host. Eric Cross. My guest today is Joe McCormick. When Joe is applying to Ivy League schools and leading the robotics team, he suddenly started losing his vision. By the end of his senior year, he had completely lost his central vision in both eyes due to a rare genetic condition. Joe ultimately went to Harvard to study engineering while navigating his new world with vision loss. Eventually, he graduated and fulfilled his dream of becoming an engineer. One of the things I was inspired by in this conversation was Joe’s resilient optimism. This theme arose again and again, as he shared his story and gave his reflections on how educators can support students with visual impairments. And now please enjoy this great discussion with Joe McCormick. So you’re in the middle of school. And how did that realization come about that something was wrong?

Joe McCormick (01:10):
Yeah, so I was definitely more student than athlete and student-athlete. So my primary thing was robotics club. So I was like really big in robotics. We did a program called Botball and so that was like my primary sport. The board that we play on is built of PVC pipe. And so I went to like, look through a PVC pipe and then I went to take the cap off of it. And there was no cap. It was just literally, I just couldn’t see through like a 12-inch tube. And then I quickly realized something was wrong here. And so I had to kind of go through the motions of trying to figure out like what was wrong. And luckily I was diagnosed fairly quickly for it being a super rare disease and they figured out within a couple weeks.

Eric Cross (01:47):
What’s the name of it.

Joe McCormick (01:48):
It’s called, Leber Hereditary Optic Neuropathy. People just call it LHON for short. It’s like super, super rare. I think the last stats I saw is that there’s like 60 new cases a year in the U.S.

Eric Cross (01:59):
I figured the advancements in genetic testing since it was first diagnosed ’til now, have there been treatments for gene therapy?

Joe McCormick (02:08):
So I got lucky that I’m in a trial. I got in a trial when I first started losing my sight. So I was the third person in the world to get this particular drug to treat it, and it actually was pretty effective for me. But on the unfortunate side, because I was the third person in the world to get it, I couldn’t really get the dosage I needed for a while. From the time that I got kind of what my current dosage is, my site has not gotten any worse and this is typically a degenerative disease, but it took them like two months to legally get me to the right limit. And in that time period I lost a decent amount of sight.

Eric Cross (02:39):
And you’re still currently in that trial.

Joe McCormick (02:41):
I still am. Yeah. They stopped enrolling patients maybe seven years ago. So there’s, I think 10 of us left in the trial, but luckily I’m still in it, which is awesome.

Eric Cross (02:50):
You were humble as far as like your athletic skills, like you played sports. You know, in high school and that’s like a big feat ,and then you, you did Botball, which I’m pretty familiar with is that the building the robots to be able to …

Joe McCormick (03:00):
The games were, I would say, made up, but revolved around, trying to usually move like POM POM balls or small items through some sort of obstacle course. So our team finished on our best season. We finished third internationally.

Eric Cross (03:16):
How early did you get involved in that?

Joe McCormick (03:17):
I started my freshman year of high school, so, back in 2006. And pretty quickly was able to kind of get to captain on the team, I think, in my sophomore year. And so they’ll pursue that for, for all four years in the process.

Eric Cross (03:32):
So you make it through high school, you’re in college now and now you’re navigating college. Now, have you lost your vision or is it a slow progression?

Joe McCormick (03:41):
It was interesting, because obviously the spring of senior year is also when you have to commit to college. So I found out I lost sight in one eye first and basically with this disease, it’s kind of a ticking time bomb that I was going to lose sight in my other eye. It was just a matter of, is it days, weeks, or months? I found out about this disease at the beginning of March of 2010 and two weeks later I found out I got into MIT. So that was super exciting. And right around that time, when I started to lose my sight, I got in this clinical trial. I also found out I got into Harvard off the wait list, which was now an interesting decision, because obviously Harvard is probably less strong historically in the engineering side, but really strong in computer science and really strong at everything else.

Joe McCormick (04:24):
And so Harvard, I think gave me a much more vast array of choices, where again, if it turns out that after losing my sight, I can’t do engineering well, I could fall back into like anything that Harvard offers because it kind of offers everything and it was an awesome fit for everything I wanted to do at the time. And, the other thing that is interesting is obviously on the accessibility side is Harvard had a really, really awesome accessible education office and did a really good job of making sure I’d be able to integrate with the rest of the students, get the books I needed, get everything I needed, accessibly. And MIT surprisingly did not. I mean, they had something, but it was as one big concept. They say, I won’t be able to read any printed material once you lose your sight. And at Harvard they say, okay, cool. We’ll look at your course and we’ll know that you need these books. We’ll go get all those books, turn them into PDFs and send them over to you.

Eric Cross (05:13):
During those first couple years, what was it like having to transition with a new kind of learning style using these accessibility tools?

Joe McCormick (05:21):
Harvard very much did not want me to start immediately. They were very much like, oh, take a gap year, go learn all the tooling, or at least take the first semester off and come and start afterwards. And I was extremely adamant that I did not want to do that. In that I wanted to be able to kind of start college with the rest of my friends and finish college with my friends, the timeline kind of worked out was I started to lose sight in my second eye in may and obviously school starts in end of August. And so it was a very quick turnaround where I had to learn these tools. For me, It was like, okay, like I can’t work on a piece of paper anymore ’cause I can’t read my own handwriting at all. So what, what can I do?

Joe McCormick (05:54):
And so, I thought of, okay, let me just get a whiteboard. And so we installed the whiteboard in my dorm room and then I worked with a whiteboard and a whiteboard marker, so I could write whatever font that I could see. And then what I did is after I filled up the board, I would just take a picture on digital camera and I would basically then wipe the board, do all over again. And at the end of a lesson, I would just connect that to my printer and print out eight and half by 11 sheets of paper with my work on it that started on a four-foot by four-foot board and now ends up on eight and a half by 11. I hand that into the professors. Ultimately I think, especially, being disabled, it’s like trying to find some way to be flexible and find some work around, because I think there’s always a way to get there. It’s just going to be maybe a little bit different or a little out of the box.

Eric Cross (06:33):
The question I wanna ask is like, was there an emotional component for you in this as you were going through trying to find these solutions or did you just find it as another thing to tinker with?

Joe McCormick (06:44):
Yeah, I think I’m relatively unique in that I am like, optimistic to a fault. I always think that something is going to work out in my favor and maybe something’s eventually going to blow up my face, but, usually they don’t. And so I think from my side, it was like, well, this is, is just another challenge that I have to work through. One night in the very beginning, when I first found out the actual prognosis being kind of permanent loss of central vision, and that’s one where it’s like, oh wow, this, this hits you hard. And at that point in time, I was really thinking about the future and like I’m never gonna see my children’s face. I’m never gonna do all that stuff. And I now have a son to look at his face and yeah, I can’t see him from across the room, but if I’m a few feet in front of him, I can still see that smile and see him be excited about stuff.

Eric Cross (07:22):
What advice if you’re thinking about teachers that are working with students who are visually impaired, what advice would you give them or, teachers with IEPs or disabilities in general? Is there anything that you kind of looking back would, would tell them?

Joe McCormick (07:35):
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think it’s an interesting factor too, because I also myself was a teacher in that I was a teaching assistant for computer science courses. And so obviously then on the other side, I need to be accommodating to my students in the process. So I was a teaching assistant for two years, for the intro CS course at Harvard. And I think the same thing that probably teachers are doing on a daily basis, just in non-disability scenarios, of being flexible is key, right? As you mentioned, like not everyone’s gonna receive information the same way, whether that’s due to any number of disabilities or just that, I don’t know, they’re not feeling it that day or different people are visual learners versus auditory learners versus hands-on learners. Like I think for everybody there’s some different way that they probably best process that information and best work.

Joe McCormick (08:21):
And I think for teachers, it’s trying to find the strength and find it in each person. And I think it’s a collaborative effort, right? I don’t think it’s the teacher’s job be like, hey, this is exactly how you should do it. It’s like, oh, let’s talk about some different ways that we can solve this. And that’s much easier to do when it’s a high school student than if it was like a second grade student. But as a high school student who’s particularly, I’d say, if they’re motivated, they’re gonna collaborate with the teacher to help brainstorm different ways to do it. But I think really starting to think outside the box. And when I would join classes in college, one of the first things I’d say to a professor was like, hey, I can’t see anything you’re gonna write on the board. So anything you ever write, as long as you say what you’re writing, I’ll be able to follow along. But if you don’t say it, I’ll have no idea what you’re talking about.

Eric Cross (09:05):
Is that something you would say in the beginning, like when you met them, you’d lead with that?

Joe McCormick (09:09):
I would, ’cause I would say, basically you have the equivalent to an IEP, but I would have like a letter of accommodations, which is what I was by the university kind of permitted to be accommodated for. And that included like, extra time for testing, private room for testing so I could do this whiteboard setup, use of my computer in the classroom to take notes. And so I would come to them after the first day and I would say like, hey, like just so you know, like these are accommodations that I have, but I was like, here’s some basic tips that would work well for me. And again, the saying what they wrote on the board is super important in math and science classes. I wouldn’t need to tell that to the literature class right?

Joe McCormick (09:46):
Everyone would be talking anyways in the process. But again, for most professors, all they needed was that little prompt and then they were fine, and maybe they needed a reminder after a little bit. But the other thing is like people get into teaching because they want students to learn. They want them to succeed. So having an accommodation, I don’t think is going to feel for them to be like this huge burden. It’s like, oh yeah. If I did this little thing, your life gets better. And then they quickly realize like, yeah, that’s not too hard. Like I can gladly do that in the process. And so for me again, maybe it’s just me being lucky, but I never got any pushback from any professor ever in my four years to do any of the things I was asking for in the process. And I think some of that is again being flexible for both directions, but also just kind of presenting the why behind the what, right? Like it’s not saying like, hey, you need to do this. It’s like, hey, this will help me because X, Y, Z. And I think for motivating anybody, if they know why they should be doing something, they’ll be much more interested in doing it than if they’re just told what to do

Eric Cross (10:40):
And hearing that self-advocacy, like when you are in college, I’m thinking about how do I encourage my students to also advocate for themselves and own what they need. I’m teaching middle school science students. And they’re at an age where they know if they have a special learning need or a health impairment. They know these different contexts that they live in that impact their learning and then advocating for their self and saying, this is my learning, how do I communicate that to an adult, which at that age just can be tough because the adult, there’s this huge power difference and age difference, but them knowing like, no, it’s about me, I’m going to advocate for myself and speak to this teacher and let them know this is what I need for my support.

Joe McCormick (11:19):
I can’t picture myself as a 10-year-old or a 12-yearold being able to advocate like I can as an 18, 19, 20-year-old, right? So it’s definitely a lot tougher from that side. And I think it will probably require much more work as the teacher to help pull that out of the students more than when it’s basically having as a college student, basically an adult in the process.

Eric Cross (11:36):
It is. And demystifying that even though they’re adults and we’re adults, that it is okay to speak about the things that you need. And everybody comes to it from a different background and perspective on that. Especially children, they look at adults in different ways. And if you come from a family that says whatever they do is right, then you’re not gonna be as likely to speak up for yourself. And if you come from a family that encourages you to engage in inter-generational dialogue and things like that, you’re gonna be more active in participating, and as teachers, it’s important that we empower our students to use voice and to advocate for themselves. And right. It is a process of allowing them the permission and feel like they can do this. And it is okay to do.

Eric Cross (12:19):
It’s not disrespectful. It’s not, they always know best. It’s something that I always try to do with my own students. And I know many teachers who are listening, it’s one thing that we want to do, ’cause once they’re away from us, once, you know, especially the teachers who are trying to make sure they’re serving and differentiating the various needs, they may not always have someone like that in the classroom. They might always be that person or be with that teacher who’s doing those things. And so because you know, our kids see what 60, 70 different teachers throughout their career as K-12, I mean, so many different educators around. Shifting gears a little bit. I read that you’re a beast at beat ball.

Joe McCormick (12:58):
Yeah. So as mentioned on the sports side, I feel like I am a significantly better blind athlete than I ever was a sighted athlete.

Eric Cross (13:05):
People who are visually impaired, you said, there’s a spectrum. Like you have your peripheral vision. Does that give you a little edge in beat ball?

Joe McCormick (13:11):
No. So the way beat, well, somewhat, but the way that beat works, beat baseball is its full name. It’s an adaptive version of baseball for the vision impaired, but every player wears a blindfold. So it equals the playing field. When it comes to the actual game, often being more sighted is a disadvantage because you’re not used to using your ears, which is a key part of, of beat baseball. The ball is beeping and that’s how we can follow it and play in the process I’ve been playing now for, this would be my 10th season. Our team is pretty good, so we finished as high as second place. Last we finished in third place and I’ve made the offensive all-star team in the process. So it’s a ton of fun, again, a way to kind of get back out there after playing sports. Again, another fear of losing sight is like oh, can I still do the stuff I used to do? And the answer is like, not exactly, but again, flexibly, yes. Like I can’t go and play regular baseball with my friends, but I can play this version and have a ton of fun doing it.

Eric Cross (14:04):
People say when they lose one sense, another one gets enhanced. Has that been your story or your feeling? Is that true?

Joe McCormick (14:10):
I’d say it’s generally true. For me again, because I still have peripheral vision, I definitely not seen like the crazy increase in hearing or something in the process, but definitely I can hear a train off in the distance that most people can’t, type stuff. But it is also interesting to see typically the best defensive players in the league are folks with no vision and they’ve never had vision, because they’re used to listening and using their ears constantly. And so picking up a beeping ball is much easier for them where they can hear it and just stick their hand out and pick it up. And I think with all this too, and I didn’t mention enough in the beginning is like even beat baseball is heavily based on support from sighted people in the process, right? Like as I mentioned upfront, the pitcher and catcher in the sport are both sighted.

Joe McCormick (14:53):
It’d be far too hard if they were also blind and blindfolded, ’cause they’d have no way of hitting the bat. There are teams all over the country, if you are particularly keen in sports, definitely look up if there is a team near you, likely there is. Most teams are always looking for volunteers to help. I’d recommend the national beat baseball association nbba.org and looking to see if there is a local team that you can help out in the process. Sighted people are a key part of that sport. I think it kind of goes back to the theme upfront and the same as when I was back at Harvard, having a lot of support is like, there’s no way to go through these journeys alone. Or if you do, it’s just significantly harder. And so whether that’s friends taking me to class for the first time to find where in this building the classroom, or my girlfriend at the time, now wife, helping me by driving me to places or doing all this stuff. No matter where you are on this journey, I feel like it’s hard to go through it without some form of support.

Joe McCormick (15:41):
I think, for me, even just finding this blind baseball team, the Boston Renegade, when I first lost my sight is ,I had never met someone who was visually impaired before losing my own sight, right? So it’s like, I had no idea what it was even like to be blind, but finding this team pretty quickly then gives you friends with that same experience and a shared experience can make it much easier, but then also helps you to figure out these ideas, right? Like, I can give an idea to someone else and they can give me an idea on how to best find the train or whatever it is. And I think finding people with shared experiences will make, whatever is, whether that’s because it’s also impairment or other disabilities or yeah, It’s just like anything, finding people with common interests and common backgrounds is going to make your life probably a little more successful in the process.

Eric Cross (16:22):
Looking back on your education, are there any teachers that inspired you or who stand out to you as you think back?

Joe McCormick (16:28):
Yeah, and I think, so the drama teacher I mentioned, his name is Mr. Gleason, obviously a strong influence ’cause that pushed me towards the robotics side, which ultimately, at the end day, I’m now a computer or software engineer, a computer science major by trade that I would’ve never been probably into that area at all without the robotics background. So I think that that clue is a big influence and then jumping onto the college side, I started in mechanical engineering, but that turned out to be not as interesting and also harder once losing sight. Like, that is a very, very visual and very hands on thing, which I was super interested in, but not being able to then do those hands on things, once I lost my sight was a much less interesting journey when I can’t be using the AutoCAD machine or can’t be doing all these different things in the process.

Joe McCormick (17:17):
And so from there, I took the intro to computer science course because it was a requirement to be a mechanical engineer and I kind of immediately fell in love with that experience. And a lot of that was thanks to the professor, who, who offered the course, his name’s David Malan. He’s pretty well known amongst the computer science industry. He teaches CS 50, which is the intro CS course at Harvard. And that definitely got me interested in computer science, which now has been my career for the past eight years. And he ended up offering me a teaching assistant position. I then taught that course, and without his influence, wouldn’t have been as interested in the computer science aspects and made that major switch, and then a career switch after that.

Eric Cross (17:56):
You said mechanical engineering was harder being visually impaired because there’s so much that maybe visually and spatially you have to see, but you’re a software engineer and there’s lines of code that you have to be able to go through. And so how do you navigate that? And you’re a successful dude, like you you’re doing this well.

Joe McCormick (18:17):
Yeah. So I’d say there are two main strategies that I use. So one is a technology called a screen reader, and what that software’s job is, it’s named pretty well, it reads your screen, right? So its job is to take everything that’s visibly displayed on the screen and read it to you, for you to then interpret. The other thing I use is a screen magnifier. And so if I want to see something, I will zoom it in substantially for it to be useful for me. So if I’m using my computer, I’m typically zoomed in between eight and 10X zoom. So I’m only seeing whatever 12 and a half to 10% of the screen at a time. And in front of me is a 34-inch monitor. So, here’s not a lot of characters on that screen at once if I do wanna look, but obviously that’d be pretty hard to be able to like physically be scrolling and reading that. So most of the time, if I’m writing code or reading code, it’s all listening to it. When I’m typing, every single key that I press, it tells me. So if I’m typing out Joe, it’s gonna say J O E and then I hit the space bar, say space. And so it sounds both annoying and hard, but after you’ve been doing that for a few months, and now for me, 11 or 12 years later, it’s totally normal to just be like used to listening all day every day to everything that is being shown on my computer. But the other thing is it’s crazy the work that Apple has done for accessibility. All of Apple products are fully accessible and for free. So you don’t need to install extra software, it’s just built in, it’s called Voiceover and Magnifier on those. And so I use an iPhone and that is a total life changer.

Eric Cross (19:49):
So there are tools beyond Snapchat, Instagram,

Joe McCormick (19:52):
Definitely. And if not those tools just make Snapchat, Instagram, more usable as well, especially the bigger companies have put the time in to make them accessible and usable to people who are visually impaired. And for me, especially even like the Google suite of products, which I’m sure a lot of teachers are using, those type of things, Google has made all of those fully accessible.

Eric Cross (20:09):
On that conversation about software. Have you heard of the apps–there’re two of them that I share with teachers in the grad school that I work in. One of them is called, Be My Eyes. And for teachers who are listening, it’s, it’s an app that allows people who are visually impaired and people who are sighted to be paired so that the sighted person could tell, using the camera almost like FaceTime, they can be called, and they’re a volunteer, and the person needs them to identify two different brands of something in the grocery store, could be like cans of soup, you know, chicken noodle versus tomato soup.

Joe McCormick (20:38):
Yep. That’s one I’m a huge fan of, I use that multiple times a week. Yeah. Be My Eyes is obviously great, but requires you both to talk to a human and there’s a little bit of delay. Obviously you have to, to connect to somebody, talk to them in the process, Seeing AI is Microsoft’s, it’s the equivalent of kind of OCR, optical character recognition. But it does even more than that in that, as I mentioned, like, if I want to make a burrito, right, I can go into the fridge and find that burrito, but like, how do I know how long to cook it? I can go into seeing AI and scan it by its barcode. And it will look up the instructions on how I can cook that burrito and just tell me, oh, it’s 90 seconds in the microwave.

Eric Cross (21:13):
The part of the app, one of the features that excites me the most, and kind of the where can we go with this technology, is the scene feature where you take a photo and it identifies what’s in the picture with amazing accuracy.

Joe McCormick (21:25):
Yeah. It’s, it’s beneficial. I think the other thing that’s interesting, it’s kind of same technology, but an extension of that, is for things like, let’s say you’re posting on Facebook, can you just post a picture, or on Instagram, and there’s no caption. It’s like for someone who visually impaired is that’s meaningless, right? Like, well, what did you post a picture of? And so built in to some of these platforms now, and basically all these platforms just like put a caption, describe, put in what’s called alt text, alternative text, where it describes it to someone who’s visually impaired with like, image of a baby or image of a mountain. But now that software can do that for you. And it’s like, well, yeah, maybe I don’t know exactly where they are, but it’s like, oh, they posted a picture of a mountain. They’re probably someone who’s traveling.

Eric Cross (22:03):
And for folks listening. So the apps that we’re talking about are Be My Eyes, that’s the one we talked about where it pairs folks up. But then the other one we’re talking about, which you can run by yourself, is Microsoft Seeing AI.

Joe McCormick (22:14):
There’s a whole bunch of other apps in this space too. Right? We’ve, we’ve named two of them. There’s a whole bunch. There’s one called Blind Square, there’s one I use called Via Opt to Nav, which is a navigation app. And for someone who sighted, it sounds basic, right? Like, oh, you bust Google apps, but for the visually impaired, like that’s, that’s not easy to know where you are, especially in a city where it’s, or there could be three streets all within that a hundred feet, that tells you to turn for it. So it’s like, which one is it? And these apps now, the step beyond these other tools, will give you more information you can use to figure out where you are.

Eric Cross (22:44):
I have one question. Is there any tech that’s out, that’s either in this embryonic stage or ready to be launched, that that excites you?

Joe McCormick (22:52):
Yeah. I mean, for me, I think the obvious one is self-driving cars. I think it’s gonna be a long time before the government would allow a vision impaired person to get behind the wheel of a self-driving car. But for me, that one was always super interesting.

Eric Cross (23:04):
When I get to meet folks like you, I think about, through the lens of my students, many of whom will be the first generation to graduate college and things like that. Is there something that you would encourage someone to focus on? Like for instance, my students code and scratch, and some of them are interested in Python. If you could give advice to like your younger self, like seventh grade, like to develop a skill, is there like a route or something to explore that you would, you know, if you had like a nephew or somebody who’s like, I wanna do what you do, like, what would you tell them to like start exploring?

Joe McCormick (23:29):
I mean, I think both are awesome. Like scratch, was the first thing they teach in the intro CS course at Harvard. Right? Like that’s how they weed out the students at first, it’s like, if you don’t like Scratch, you’re not gonna like actually writing the code. So, I think Scratch is great. Python’s great. Computer science is super lucrative. I don’t see a world where it’s not super lucrative in the future still. Like, we are still at a huge world where there are way more job opportunities than there are people to fill them. It is something though that I wouldn’t say is for everybody. Don’t force it because there’s an eventual path to money there because I think, obviously like that’s not gonna be happiness at the end of the day. I think especially as a seventh grader, it’s gonna feel, if you’re just like forced to do this thing, and it’s not interesting to you, that’s probably gonna repel you and push you away from that thing forever. Where it’s like, yeah, maybe seventh grade, isn’t the right time. Maybe you try again in ninth grade, you try again, 11th grade. And I didn’t write a line of code before 10th grade of high school, and it was totally fine, I was super, super successful. And the code I was writing in 10th grade and high school was not anywhere near good codes. I really didn’t write much code until sophomore in college.

Eric Cross (24:32):
What you said is very validating because from my perspective, it’s wanting to create opportunities for students to practice skills or be exposed to things that could be useful later. You know, so kind of like you want to give them, I guess, breadth, especially at the younger age you wanna give them like access and exposure to as much as possible and go, hey, these are all different things. And so Scratch and Python are things that I expose my students to, and, and I appreciate you saying that those are good ones, because then I feel like I’m at least choosing the right technologies to let them try out. In addition to all the other things that we do.

Joe McCormick (25:03):
But I think with all this stuff too, it’s like finding activities that are interesting to them within those frameworks. Like, I was writing the Python code that I did last year. As a seventh grader, I’d have no interest. It wouldn’t make any sense. Like, it’s, it’s not interesting to me, but if I’m using Python to build something that I could actually use as a seventh grader, then it’s gonna be much more interesting. My first Scratch program I ever wrote was air hockey. I was 18 years old and it was fun. But like the first Python code I wrote, as a senior in college, was doing AI as machine learning to figure out Netflix ratings of movies. Super interesting as a 20-year-old, but as a seventh grader, could not care less about that. But with all these tools, you can use them in many different ways.

Joe McCormick (25:43):
So trying to find the way that you take that tool and it best connects with the seventh grade minds. And I think kids are just much more tech-friendly now, where like you could use Python to build an Instagram clone or something. So then it gets more interesting, because they can connect with it. But for me as a seventh grader, when tech was not as big a thing, like, I don’t know what I would’ve been able to build that would’ve been as interesting to me. I think games would’ve been it, and trying to build something that I could play with. But for me, I see satisfaction on a day-to-day basis when I see people using what I’ve built. And I think even that as a kid, I had a similar satisfaction of like, when people get joy out of what you are doing or, again that’s kind of that shared community of like, oh, this is fun. That will be interesting. So kids being able to build games that their other friends could use, I feel like is probably gonna make that feel rewarding and keep that like cycle of satisfaction going for years to come,

Eric Cross (26:30):
No, you nailed it. They, they start off by animating their name. And thankfully Google has a whole curriculum called CS first where it’s all kind of like canned lessons. So teachers who aren’t computer science teachers have no background can take this, there’s videos, multiple languages, and they can animate their name, they can build a video game, they can tell a story and then they learn step by step, how to use all of the different tools and Scratch to kind of make what they’re trying to do. And then I have the students beta test, and this week we brought in some robots and they’re coding these robots that have these ultrasonic sensors and all these different things on them. We just started that. But you’re absolutely right, the embedding it in a real context, that’s engaging and interesting as opposed to like learning it in the abstract. Like, why am I doing this? It’s huge.

Joe McCormick (27:17):
Yeah. I think the robots is a big thing. I think there’s something about switching from the technical world to the real world that like, even today, as an adult, I get more, I mean, obviously I write software every single day, but when the software starts to do stuff that pings outside of itself, or like if the software sends me an email, it’s so much more interesting, cause it now is like switched mediums or something. And I know in college, I got to do a class where we built a smart light switch where you could text and it would turn the lights on. And it’s like the actual code required there is not that complex, but the fact that it now gets into the real physical world and I could control the light in my room was just like mind-blowing to me and excitement.

Eric Cross (27:54):
That’s awesome here. I could tell that you’re passionate about it and that you’re one of those people who got into it because of just a genuine interest and love for it. So, your story and your perspective and your outlook on the life is just incredibly inspiring and empowering. I know as I was listening to you and just thinking about how you persevered through things and it really just, also this heart of an athlete, like overcoming adversity, I appreciate you sharing your story. Stories like this help empower teachers to help their students have better access, to help their students have an example of someone who was able to just start knocking down walls, being someone who kind of created a pathway for yourself to be able to succeed. And I just wanna thank you for being here.

Joe McCormick (28:41):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Eric Cross (28:44):
Thanks so much for joining me and Joe today. And now we want to hear more about you. If you have any great lessons or ways to keep student engagement high, please email us@stemamplifycom.wpengine.com. That’s STEM amplifycom.wpengine.com and make sure to click, subscribe wherever you listen to podcast until next time.