Families and caregivers, welcome to Amplify Desmos Math K–5!
Welcome to the Amplify Desmos Math K–5 Caregiver Hub. We hope your student enjoys exploring math, working with friends to solve problems, and learning new and interesting concepts. And we hope you enjoy the math journey with them! Below are some suggestions and resources for how you can support their learning at home.
Learn more about Amplify Desmos Math.
Para la versión en español, haga clic aquí.
Caregiver Unit Resources
For every unit of the program, we’ve created a Caregiver Resource that provides a summary of key concepts, plus a problem from the lesson practice set you can work through with your student. You’ll find a Caregiver Resource for each unit, in both English and Spanish.
Unit 1: Math in Our World
Unit 2: Numbers 1–10
Unit 3: Flat Shapes All Around Us
Unit 4: Understanding Addition and Subtraction
Unit 5: Make and Break Apart Numbers Within 10
Unit 6: Numbers 0–20
Unit 7: Solid Shapes All Around Us
Unit 1: Adding, Subtracting, and Working With Data
Unit 2: Addition and Subtraction Story Problems
Unit 3: Adding and Subtracting Within 20
Unit 4: Numbers to 99
Unit 5: Adding Within 100
Unit 6: Measuring Lengths of Up to 120 Length Units
Unit 7: Geometry and Time
Unit 1: Working With Data and Solving Comparison Problems
Unit 2: Adding and Subtracting Within 100
Unit 3: Measuring Length
Unit 4: Addition and Subtraction on the Number Line
Unit 5: Numbers to 1,000
Unit 6: Geometry and Time
Unit 7: Adding and Subtracting Within 1,000
Unit 8: Equal Groups
Unit 1: Introducing Multiplication
Unit 2: Area and Multiplication
Unit 3: Wrapping Up Addition and Subtraction Within 1,000
Unit 4: Relating Multiplication to Division
Unit 5: Fractions as Numbers
Unit 6: Measuring Length, Time, Liquid Volume, and Weight
Unit 7: Two-Dimensional Shapes and Perimeter
Unit 1: Factors and Multiples
Unit 2: Fraction Equivalence and Comparison
Unit 3: Extending Operations to Fractions
Unit 4: From Hundredths to Hundred Thousands
Unit 5: Multiplicative Comparison and Measurement
Unit 6: Multiplying and Dividing Multi-Digit Numbers
Unit 7: Angles and Properties of Shapes
Unit 1: Volume
Unit 2: Fractions as Quotients and Fraction Multiplication
Unit 3: Multiplying and Dividing Fractions
Unit 4: Multiplication and Division With Multi-Digit Whole Numbers
Unit 5: Place Value Patterns and Decimal Operations
Unit 6: More Decimal and Fraction Operations
Unit 7: Shapes on the Coordinate Plane
Unit refresh videos
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 2 – Answering the Question “Are There Enough?”
- Sub-Unit 3 – Counting and Cardinality
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Comparing 2 Groups Using the Terms More, Fewer, and Same
- Sub-Unit 2 – Counting Objects in Different Orders
- Sub-Unit 3 – Making Groups to Represent Numerals
- Sub-Unit 4 – Comparing Written Numbers
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Identifying Circles and Triangles in Different Sizes and Orientations
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Positional Words to Describe the Location of Shapes
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding and Subtracting Within 10
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Addition and Subtraction Story Problems
- Sub-Unit 3 – Finding the Values of Expressions
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Decomposing Numbers in More Than 1 Way
- Sub-Unit 2 – Solving for Both Parts
- Sub-Unit 3 – Breaking Apart 10
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Organizing Data to Count How Many in Each Category
- Sub-Unit 2 – Counting on to Add and Counting Back to Subtract
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing 2 Categories of Data With Addition Equations
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing and Solving Add To, Change Unknown Story Problems
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Addition or Subtraction to Find an Unknown Part of a Total Amount
- Sub-Unit 3 – Solving Compare, Difference Unknown Problems
- Sub-Unit 4 – Making Sense of Story Problems With Different Questions
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Finding a Difference Using the Relationship Between Addition and Subtraction
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Structure of Teen Numbers to Find Missing Addends
- Sub-Unit 3 – Breaking Apart Addends to Make 10 When Adding
- Sub-Unit 4 – Subtracting From Teen Numbers in Parts to Get to 10
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding a Ten To and Subtracting a Ten From Multiples of 10
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing and Writing Two-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Two-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 4 – Representing the Same Two-Digit Number With Different Amounts of Tens and Ones
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding a Number of Tens or Ones to a Two-Digit Number
- Sub-Unit 2 – Adding a Two-Digit Number and a One-Digit Number When Composing a Ten is Necessary
- Sub-Unit 3 – Adding a Two-Digit Number and a Two-Digit Number When Composing a Ten is Necessary
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Choosing Strategies to Add Within 20
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Data in a Picture Graph and Bar Graph
- Sub-Unit 3 – Finding the Difference Between 2 Categories Shown on a Bar Graph
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Strategies to Solve Story Problems Involving Money
- Sub-Unit 2 – Decomposing a Ten When Subtracting by Place
- Sub-Unit 3 – Making Sense of Story Problems About Comparing That Use the Word More
- Sub-Unit 4 – Making Sense of One- and Two-Step Story Problems
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Measuring the Length of an Object in Centimeters Using a Ruler
- Sub-Unit 2 – Measuring Objects in Inches and Feet
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Measurement Data on a Line Plot
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Locating Numbers on Number Lines
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Addition and Subtraction Strategies on a Number Line
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Composing Hundreds to Represent Three-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 2 – Comparing Three-Digit Numbers
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Equal-Groups Situations With Equal-Groups Drawings
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Arrays With Multiplication Equations
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Data Using Scaled Bar Graphs
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle Using Counting and Skip Counting
- Sub-Unit 2 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle Using Multiplication
- Sub-Unit 3 – Decomposing to Determine the Area of Rectilinear Figures
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using the Expanded Form and Partial Sums Algorithms to Add
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Expanded Form Algorithm to Subtract
- Sub-Unit 3 – Rounding Numbers to the Nearest Hundred and Ten Using Number Lines
- Sub-Unit 4 – Representing and Solving Two-Step Story Problems Involving Multiplication
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Division Situations With Equal-Groups Drawings
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing an Equal-Groups Problem With a Division and Multiplication Equation
- Sub-Unit 3 – Using the Distributive Property of Multiplication to Multiply a One-Digit Number by a Teen Number
- Sub-Unit 4 – Decomposing Dividends to Divide
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Writing Unit and Non-Unit Fractions
- Sub-Unit 2 – Locating Non-Unit Fractions on the Number Line
- Sub-Unit 3 – Identifying Equivalent Fractions
- Sub-Unit 4 – Comparing Fractions With the Same Denominator or Same Numerator
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using Factor Pairs to Determine All the Possible Side Lengths of a Rectangle With a Given Area
- Sub-Unit 2 – Finding Multiples and Common Multiples
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Locating Fractions with Different Denominators On the Same Number Line
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Multiples or Factors to Determine Equivalent Fractions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Fractions Using Equivalent Fractions With Common Denominators
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding and Subtracting Fractions with the Same Denominator
- Sub-Unit 2 – Multiplying Whole Numbers and Fractions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Adding Fractions with Denominators of 10 and 100
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Writing Fractions With Denominators of 10 and 100 as Decimals
- Sub-Unit 2 – Relationships Between Place Values in Multi-Digit Whole Numbers
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Multi-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 4 – Using the Standard Algorithm to Subtract When Decomposing is Required
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Multiplicative Comparison Situations
- Sub-Unit 2 – Converting Measurements in the Metric System
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Measurements
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using the Layered Structure of a Rectangular Prism to Determine the Volume
- Sub-Unit 2 – Determining the Volume of a Rectangular Prism
- Sub-Unit 3 – Determining the Volume of Figures Composed of Rectangular Prisms
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Equal-Sharing Story Problems with Fractional Quotients
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Fractions with Equivalent Multiplication and Division Expressions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle With a Fractional Side Length
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Multiplication of 2 Unit Fractions with Diagrams
- Sub-Unit 2 – Dividing Whole Numbers by Unit Fractions
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Multiplying Multi-digit Whole Numbers Using the Partial Products and Standard Algorithms
- Sub-Unit 2 – Dividing Multi-Digit Whole Numbers Using Partial Quotients
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Multi-Step Story Problems with Equations
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Comparing Decimals
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Standard Algorithms to Add and Subtract Decimals
- Sub-Unit 3 – Multiplying a Whole Number and a Decimal Using the Distributive Property
- Sub-Unit 4 – Dividing Whole Numbers by Decimals Less Than 1
Access Amplify Desmos Math at home.
In addition to a print Student Edition workbook, your student will have digital access to all learning, practice, and assessment materials through the Amplify platform. The digital curriculum can be accessed in school and at home by following these instructions:
- Click the Amplify Desmos Math button.
- Select Log in with Amplify.
- Enter your student’s username and password provided by your student’s teacher.
- Select the desired grade level.
Once logged in, caregivers can view student work by opening previous assignments.
Learn how to navigate the student home page.
Materials overview
Amplify Desmos Math supports blended learning with supporting print materials and a unique digital experience. All K–5 lessons are available in a write-in Student Edition book. Many of the lessons include hands-on activities with manipulatives, tools that help students understand abstract concepts by making them tangible. Your student will also work with digital devices for an age-appropriate number of lessons.
When students use devices, teachers can monitor their work in real time, making sure they get the exact support that they need at every part of the lesson, in and outside of class.
Components of a lesson
Students in an Amplify Desmos Math classroom can be seen (and heard!) asking questions, debating answers, justifying their thinking, grappling with problems, and working together and independently.
A typical Amplify Desmos Math lesson includes:
- Warm-up: A short, attention-getting problem to pique students’ interest in the lesson.
- Activities: One to two mini-activities that challenge students’ problem-solving skills.
- Synthesis: Discussion to review and bring together the important concepts from the lesson.
- Show What You Know and Reflection: Questions for students to show what they know from the lesson. (Note: The Show What You Know lesson assessment is optional for kindergarten and grade 1.)
- Centers: Student-led activity stations that reinforce the math learned during lesson activities through interactive and often game-like formats. In kindergarten and grade 1, time for Centers is built into the last 15 minutes of every lesson.
To support, strengthen, and stretch students’ learning after the lesson, Amplify Desmos Math offers options for:
- Differentiation: Mini-Lessons, Centers, Extensions, Boost Personalized Learning, and Fluency Practice.
- Practice: Additional problems your student’s teacher may assign for classwork or homework.
Support math learning at home.
You can support your student’s math learning outside of school in many ways:
Your student’s teacher may assign practice problems at the end of each lesson for classwork or homework. If your student has already completed the practice problems for the lesson, ask them to walk you through how they solved each problem, or talk about any parts that were challenging for them. Ask your student follow-up questions to encourage the use of math language as they explain their thinking, such as, “How do you know?,” “How can you show your thinking?,” or “How would you describe that?” If students are stuck, ask support questions, such as, “What information do you know here?” or “How could you represent this problem?”
Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game with students in the lesson or beyond the lesson. These games are aligned to the math of the unit and can be played with students outside of class. Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game to students during or after completing a lesson, or you may need to teach the game before you play by using easy-to-follow instructions. Sign up for a free account to explore Centers and additional K–5 content in our Featured Collections.
Each unit in Amplify Desmos Math begins with a read-aloud story to engage students and provide context for the math of the unit. Elements and characters from the Unit Story then appear in lessons throughout the unit.
Kindergarten
- Unit 1 Story: The First Day of School
- Unit 2 Story: What’s in a Restaurant?
- Unit 3 Story: A Great Shape Adventure
- Unit 4 Story: Casey’s Town
- Unit 5 Story: Where is Harry?
- Unit 6 Story: Winners
- Unit 7 Story: Everybody Needs Help Sometimes
Grade 1
- Unit 1 Story: Ying’s New Town
- Unit 2 Story: Let’s Grow!
- Unit 3 Story: Impossible
- Unit 4 Story: The Collectors
- Unit 5 Story: The Day of the Wazzle-Squash
- Unit 6 Story: Side by Side
- Unit 7 Story: A Potluck for Pia
Grade 2
- Unit 1 Story: A New Class Pet
- Unit 2 Story: The Heroes of Pineapple Street
- Unit 3 Story: What Orson Imagined
- Unit 4 Story: A Seed’s Journey
- Unit 5 Story: 302 Ricotta Drive
- Unit 6 Story: Arjun the Artist
- Unit 7 Story: Where Eli Went
- Unit 8 Story: On Clementine Court
Grade 3
- Unit 1 Story: My Name Is Harper
- Unit 2 Story: Cheri’s New Home
- Unit 3 Story: The View From Up Here
- Unit 4 Story: Home Cooking
- Unit 5 Story: Coen and Obita
- Unit 6 Story: Just Stick With It, Sasha
- Unit 7 Story: Through Piho’s Eyes
Grade 4
- Unit 1 Story: I Contain Multitudes
- Unit 2 Story: One Step at a Time
- Unit 3 Story: Finny
- Unit 4 Story: Myles and the Loggerheads
- Unit 5 Story: Just for Fun
- Unit 6 Story: Special Day, Special Lei
- Unit 7 Story: Captain Bogwart’s Treasure
Grade 5
Relate math to daily activities at home, whether grocery shopping, preparing a meal, or planning for a trip to the store. Your student can help you figure out how many more apples there are than oranges in the grocery cart, show how to split a sandwich into fourths, or figure out how much change you’ll receive in exchange for a $10 bill. Encourage your student to point out ways that you use math in your daily tasks.
Remind your student that getting stuck is part of the process and a necessary—beneficial, even!—part of learning. Many students (and adults) fear making mistakes. But research shows that making mistakes helps our brains grow. When your student gets stuck on a problem, encourage them to keep trying different strategies, even if they’re not sure if they are right.
Get more information.
Have a question about Amplify Desmos Math? Visit our help library to search for articles with answers to your program questions. For additional support, please contact your student’s teacher.
Defining math fluency with Jason Zimba
When we think of fluency, especially as a goal, we might think of speaking or reading a language. But fluency is also a goal in learning math! So what is math fluency? And what does it look like in the math classroom? In Season 6, Episode 1 of our Math Teacher Lounge podcast, Amplify’s own Jason Zimba helps us understand—using some analogies to baseball and chicken, of course.
Definitions of math fluency
We can develop fluency in many things, from coding to cooking. On the Math Teacher Lounge podcast, Amplify Chief Academic Officer of STEM Jason Zimba recounted becoming fluent in…roast chicken.
Jason describes practicing one particular recipe until it was perfect. For Jason, that meant not just that the outcome was flawless or delicious, but that he was eventually able to make it from memory, without thinking—and to naturally adjust and calculate for variables like a smaller or larger chicken, or an unfamiliar oven.
Math fluency works the same way. Practice brings effortlessness—freeing up time and mind space for new opportunities.
The word “fluency” comes from the Latin fluentia, which means “flowing.” When applied to math, it means ”skill in carrying out procedures flexibly, accurately, efficiently, and appropriately,” says podcast host and math teacher and advocate Dan Meyer. As with someone fluent in a language (or a recipe), someone fluent in math is able to think and calculate mathematically without struggle or effort—that is, with fluidity.
Podcast host and elementary educator Bethany Lockhart Johnson adds this informal description: “It’s that thing you don’t even think about anymore. ‘Cause it’s in there. You’re not still thinking about addition facts, because you’ve got it. And it fuels you. It’s the foundation that allows you to do all the other cool stuff.”
Fluency in the math classroom
What does fluency look like in practice? A young learner fluent in math will be able to smoothly recite the number word list in order (“one, two, three…”) and write the numerals from 0 to 9. As the student grows, so does their fluency with multi-digit calculation, rational-number arithmetic, and eventually even variable expressions.
“It’s a wordless but still somehow almost verbal sort of fluency, with properties of operations as the grammar of the language,” says Jason.
But “it’s not fact recall,” he says. “Recall is remembering or just knowing. Fluency refers to calculation.”
Why and how to improve math fluency
There are different paths to fluency, but all can lead to “conceptual richness and mathematical joy,” says Dan.
If fluency provides that crucial foundation, what happens to students who are not math-fluent?
“When kids don’t have access to [fluency], it keeps them from diving into the juicy parts of math,” says Bethany. “Math is so much bigger than addition facts, but when they don’t know those addition facts, that becomes all math is.”
Without fluency, students miss opportunities to progress in (and enjoy) math, and may even develop math anxiety.
So how can you support math students in developing fluency?
For one thing, it’s important not to underestimate the value of practice and repetition. These approaches—especially when used in combination with other, more organic modes—can be highly productive, says Jason. “I worry about whether discomfort with repetitive practice is short-changing students of the power and confidence that fluency can bring.”
Dan compares it to achieving excellence in a sport—”like shooting from the same spot on the court over and over again,” he says. That kind of rote repetition is valuable in sports, and should also have its place in math instruction.
It’s also important for students to understand why they’re learning and even drilling their numbers, arithmetic, or times tables, Jason notes. They need to be “invested in understanding and agreeing that this is going to do something for them.”
One thing that helps: providing students a sense that they’ve accomplished something. “We need to have moments for them to reflect on what has been learned and what is now easy that was previously hard,” Dan says. He calls this process “humanizing fluency”—and Math Teacher Lounge will be here all season to help math educators do just that.
Save the date
Join us at NCTM in October for a live Math Teacher Lounge podcast recording with Dan Meyer and special guest Jennifer Bay-Williams! We’ll be investigating math fluency and finding fun ways to get all students engaged in math instruction.
Math Teacher Lounge LIVE!
NCTM | Oct. 27 | 2:30 p.m. EST (doors at 2:15) | Room 158AB
More to explore
Amplify CKLA 2nd Edition Pilot Packs
Pilot educator,
This is the beginning of the Amplify Core Knowledge Language Arts (CKLA) 2nd Edition journey in your classroom! Making this important, evidence-based shift shows your commitment and dedication to your students. We truly appreciate the work you’re doing and are here to help you along the way.
We know it can be overwhelming to start a new curriculum, but we’re here to help! Within this site, you’ll find resources to help you get started before your implementation training, including a materials checklist, unit and domain summaries, support videos, and more! These tools will support your 6–12 weeks of core literacy instruction with Amplify CKLA. We hope this site is helpful in getting you started with your pilot.
Thank you for all you do,
—The Amplify CKLA team
Get started
To get started with your new pilot of Amplify CKLA, you’ll first want to review the following:
You may also find these documents helpful as you begin your pilot:
Pilot Pack components checklist
Below you’ll find the Amplify CKLA Pilot Pack components you should have received in your shipment, outlined by grade level and teacher/student materials. Please click your grade-level teacher materials and student materials to review the list and ensure that you received all of the materials.
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 5 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 6 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 7 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 5 Big Book: Ox and Man
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 6 Big Book: Kit
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 7 Big Book: Seth
Teacher materials
Skills Small Letter Card Set
Teacher materials
Skills Large Letter Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Teacher Guide: The 5 Senses
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Teacher Guide: Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Teacher Guide: Plants
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Image Cards: The 5 Senses
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Image Cards: Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Image Cards: Plants
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Flip Book: The 5 Senses
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Flip Book: Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Flip Book: Plants
Teacher materials
Sound Cards Sampler
Teacher materials
Sound Posters Sampler
Student materials
Skills Unit 6 Reader: Kit
Student materials
Skills Unit 7 Reader: Seth
Student materials
Skills Unit 5 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Unit 6 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Unit 7 Activity Book
Student materials
Chaining Folder
Student materials
Picture Reader Sampler
Student materials
Knowledge Domains 2, 3, and 4 Sampler
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Big Book: Gran
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Big Book: Fables
Teacher materials
Skills Vowel Code Flip Book
Teacher materials
Skills Large Letter Cards
Teacher materials
Skills Spelling Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Teacher Guide: The Human Body
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Teacher Guide: Different Lands, Similar Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 5 Teacher Guide: Early American Civilizations
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Image Cards: The Human Body
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Image Cards: Different Lands, Similar Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 5 Image Cards: Early American Civilizations
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 2 Flip Book: The Human Body
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 3 Flip Book: Different Lands, Similar Stories
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 5 Flip Book: Early American Civilizations
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Reader: Gran
Student materials
Skills Unit 3 Reader: Fables
Student materials
Skills Unit 4 Reader: The Green Fern Zoo
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Unit 3 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Unit 4 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Individual Code Chart
Student materials
Knowledge Domains 2, 3, and 5 Sampler
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Vowel Code Flip Book
Teacher materials
Skills Consonant Code Flip Book
Teacher materials
Skills Spelling Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 1 Teacher Guide: Fairy Tales and Tall Tales
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Teacher Guide: Greek Myths
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 8 Teacher Guide: Insects
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Image Cards: Greek Myths
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 8 Image Cards: Insects
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 1 Flip Book: Fairy Tales and Tall Tales
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Flip Book: Greek Myths
Teacher materials
Knowledge Domain 4 Image Cards: Greek Myths
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Reader: Bedtime Tales
Student materials
Skills Unit 3 Reader: Kids Excel
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Activity Book
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Individual Code Chart
Student materials
Knowledge Domains 1, 4, and 8 Sampler
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Teacher Guide: Animal Classification
Teacher materials
Unit 5 Teacher Guide: Light and Sound
Teacher materials
Unit 8 Teacher Guide: Native Americans: Regions and Culture
Teacher materials
Unit 5 Image Cards: Light and Sound
Teacher materials
Unit 8 Image Cards: Native Americans: Regions and Cultures
Student materials
Unit 2 Reader: Rattenborough’s Guide to Animals
Student materials
Unit 5 Reader: Adventures in Light and Sound
Student materials
Unit 8 Reader: Native American Stories
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Activity Book: Animal Classification
Student materials
Unit 5 Activity Book: Light and Sound
Student materials
Unit 8 Activity Book: Native Americans: Regions and Cultures
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Teacher Guide: Poetry
Teacher materials
Unit 5 Teacher Guide: Geology
Teacher materials
Unit 7 Teacher Guide: American Revolution
Student materials
Unit 3 Poet’s Journal
Student materials
Unit 5 Reader: Geology: The Changing Earth
Student materials
Unit 7 Reader: American Revolution: The Road to Independence
Student materials
Unit 5 Activity Book: Geology
Student materials
Unit 7 Activity Book: American Revolution
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Teacher Guide: Early American Civilizations
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Teacher Guide: Poetry
Teacher materials
Unit 4 Teacher Guide: The Adventures of Don Quixote
Student materials
Unit 2 Reader: Early American Civilization
Student materials
Unit 3 Poet’s Journal
Student materials
Unit 4 Reader: The Adventures of Don Quixote (trade book)
Student materials
Unit 2 Activity Book: Early American Civilization
Student materials
Unit 4 Activity Book: The Adventures of Don Quixote
Access the Amplify CKLA digital experience
You will receive your teacher demo account login information from your sales representative.
S5-05. Math technology & hacks for math anxiety: research-based tips for caregivers
We’ve been very lucky to have so many prolific and brilliant researchers on this season of Math Teacher Lounge, and our next guest is no exception.
Listen as we sit down with Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer to discuss what causes math anxiety, math hacks, and how the right math technology can make an incredible impact in children and caregivers coping with math anxiety.
Listen today and don’t forget to grab your MTL study guide to track your learning and make the most of this episode!
Marjorie Schaeffer (00:00):
I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high math-anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school year.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:12):
Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson.
Dan Meyer (00:15):
And I’m Dan Meyer.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):
We’re onto Episode 5, Dan, of our series on math anxiety. And I wanna say it feels so lovely to imagine all of these people out there doing work to help combat math anxiety. I dunno, it just makes me feel excited about the possibilities. This work is out there; it’s happening! Kids and teachers and caregivers are being impacted by these conversations. Not just — I mean, I don’t just mean the conversations we’re having on Math Teacher Lounge, but I mean, that these researchers are doing. Like, yes, we can change this!
Dan Meyer (00:53):
This is great. Yeah. We have people who are extremely smart, who have dedicated their professional lives to studying math anxiety and resolving it. And each of them that we’ve chatted with — they share lots of ideas in common, but I’ve loved how they each have their own different flavor or take or area of emphasis on a problem that hits everybody everywhere. It’s in your home, with kids and caregivers. It’s in schools. It’s in our places of teacher preparation and professional learning. Every place is a place where we can focus on resolving issues of math anxiety. It’s exciting.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:26):
Yeah, I feel like … if there could be a course in — we all know that our teacher prep programs, in MOST teacher prep programs, there’s not nearly enough math methods or time to cover <laugh> — it’s like ready, set, go! And depending on who your mentor teacher is or what your math methods course … I mean, it can totally shape the way that you are prepared or really not prepared for going out there to teach math! And so I love that we’re having these conversations.
Dan Meyer (01:55):
What I love about today’s conversation is, one, it’s got a little bit of a technology flavor, so there’s that. But I also love, it’s got one of my favorite features about change, which is that it focuses on change to action, change to routine, rather than change to belief. Rather than saying like, “OK, everybody! Everybody stop thinking bad beliefs about math and transmitting them to your kids!” Instead, it says, “What we’ll do is just, hey, we’ll set that aside for a second and we’re gonna do a certain thing every day and watch as those actions make your beliefs change.” That to me is extremely cool. And I think it has a higher likelihood of success than just, like, me telling parents, “Hey, stop thinking these thoughts!”
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:37):
“Ready, set, stop being anxious!”
Dan Meyer (02:39):
Exactly. Exactly. So it’s an exciting conversation we’re gonna have here.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:43):
Right. So it’s not a, you know, “wave the wand and all of a sudden, you’re not anxious about math anymore.” But these incremental changes, these incremental conversations, this validation, can really, really impact change. I’m with you on it, Dan. I hear what you’re saying.
Dan Meyer (03:01):
To help us talk through all of these ideas and more, we’re joined by Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer, Assistant Professor of Psychology at St. Mary’s College in Indiana.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:10):
Enjoy. <Jaunty music> So, yes, Dan, we are so excited to welcome Marjorie Schaeffer. She’s Assistant Professor of Psychology at St. Mary’s College. Dr. Schaeffer, we’re so excited you’re here. Hello!
Marjorie Schaeffer (03:28):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Dan Meyer (03:29):
Yeah. We are super-lucky to have had so many prolific and brilliant researchers about math anxiety on our show. You’ll be no exception. And every time, we love to find out about how you came to study math anxiety, which winds up being a really interesting glimpse into your backstory bio. So tell us, what is the route by which you came toward studying math anxiety?
Marjorie Schaeffer (03:51):
Oh, I love that question. I’m really interested in how the attitudes and beliefs of parents and teachers influence children, especially around math. And I actually became interested in this idea in college, when no Child Left Behind was actually first starting to be implemented in schools with high-stakes standardized testing. So much so that I actually did my thesis on this thinking about, “Do children understand the importance of high-stakes testing? Do they have anxiety around that idea?” And so that was really my first foray into the anxiety literature. And that was kind of the entry point into math anxiety for me.
Dan Meyer (04:28):
So you started by studying a very high-stakes assessment, like our students connecting with this. And the assessment is once per year. And classroom instruction is every day. So how did you move from the assessments to the everyday instruction?
Marjorie Schaeffer (04:44):
That’s a great question. So, after college, I actually taught kindergarten. And so from that, I saw the day-to-day impact of instruction and the day-to-day impact of children’s individual attitudes and beliefs. And so I really became interested in thinking about, “How do we understand why some children are really successful from the instruction happening in classrooms and why other children need a little bit more support?” And so math anxiety was one way for me to really think about the individual differences I saw in my kindergarten classroom.
Dan Meyer (05:18):
It feels like you headed … you went farther upstream, is what it feels like. Where assessment … there’s like some kind of anxiety around assessment, let’s say. And then you ventured farther up the stream to classroom instruction and then still farther into kids’ homes. It seems like your research invokes a lot of curiosity about the sources of a kind of amorphous, flowing phenomenon called math anxiety. And I’d love to hear a bit about what you know about how caregivers transfer, transmit — whatever the word is — math anxiety to their kids.
Marjorie Schaeffer (05:55):
For parents … we think that the attitudes and beliefs of parents matter. And we see that for lots of areas, not just math anxiety. But I think math anxiety, we see that really clearly. And so, we can think about it both in terms of what kind of input parents provide. So, how do families talk about math with their children? What kind of support do they provide around homework? And those are ones that I think are a little obvious. But we can also think about the offhanded comments that parents say to children when they’re talking about math generally. Right? So, we see lots of memes going around, talking about how hard math homework is. And so, I think when parents say offhanded comments like, “I’m not a math person,” or “We’re just bad at math,” that communicates values to children. I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high math-anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school year. And this specific mechanism by which that happens is still an area for a lot of research. And so some people think it’s about input. So maybe if I’m math anxious, I’m avoiding math. And so, when I have an option to read a picture book that has math content, I focus on the colors instead. And so, my child is actually getting less math than other children. We can also think it’s about these messages that are provided. So, when I talk about math, I send the message to my child, it’s not for them, and therefore the child wants to engage in it less. And some of my work looks at things like expectations and values. So, thinking about, “Do math-anxious families actually value math less than other families unintentionally?” And so, we have some support for this idea that they expect less of their children. And so maybe when they struggle, they respond in different ways than a family who’s lower in math anxiety.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:53):
This is so fascinating to me. I also was a kindergarten teacher. And I remember a mom who just … she had such like palpable math anxiety. And during one of our conversations, she was talking about these homework sessions with her daughter. And I may have mentioned this on the podcast before. But she was talking about how every night they would sit together and they would do all this math. They’d do, like, extra math together. And it always ended in tears. And despite her math anxiety, she didn’t want her daughter to experience the math anxiety that she did. So she was trying to pile it on, so her daughter was more proficient and comfortable. And instead, it was perpetuating this anxiety about it. And so, it’s a phenomenon then, right? Even if a parent is saying, like you said, maybe completely unwilling, this mother was actually trying to do the opposite. She was trying to help, you know, imbue the love and comfort with math. Right?
Marjorie Schaeffer (09:01):
Absolutely. This is why I think in my research, it’s really important that we find low-stakes, low-stress ways for high math-anxious families to do math. They absolutely can support their children in doing math. But they need a little support. We want it to be a fun, low-stakes environment, right? So maybe that’s the connection back to high-stakes testing, that I want children to have fun math experiences.
Dan Meyer (09:28):
Yeah. This is challenging, because it feels like the more caregivers know about math anxiety, and its pernicious effects on students, and how easily transmitted it is, one could become quite anxious about math anxiety. And, you know, no one makes great decisions when they’re anxious. So if I’m recalling our various episodes we’ve done, we’ve heard from people say, “Well, you need to validate students’ math anxiety. This is not something to just ignore or brush past. But also, not validate it in a way that says, you know, ‘This is OK and generational and inevitable.’” Which presents parents with a very thin path to follow, it seems like. So I love what you’re saying about how we gotta just de-stress the whole process.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:11):
You’re avoiding the whole, “I wasn’t a math person either” kind of thing. <laugh>
Dan Meyer (10:15):
Right, right, right. Yeah. So I’d love to know more. We’re excited about the technology that you have studied and helped develop, presumably, called Bedtime Math, anapp for caregivers. And I’d love to know more about what that is and what it offers parents who know enough about math to know that they don’t want to transmit math anxiety to their children, but also want to support. So what does that offer them?
Marjorie Schaeffer (10:39):
So Bedtime Math is an app. It’s freely available on iTunes or the Apple Store or Google Play. And what it’s designed to do is to provide a nightly topical passage. So one of my favorites is the one about Groundhogs Day. And so it talks a little bit about the history of Groundhogs Day, and then it asks math-related follow-up questions. So starting at a preschool level, going through late fifth grade. And it’s really meant for parents to pick the one that meets their children where they are. And so the preschool-level question asks children to pretend to be a groundhog and walk to the left and walk to the right. So a skill that families might not think about as being math, but we actually think that IS part of understanding math. Understanding left and right directionality. And then the next question can ask questions like, “If it took the groundhog three seconds to climb out of the hole, and then two more seconds to see its shadow, how much time did it take all together?” So a simple addition problem, but it’s phrased in a fun way. And so the hope is that for high math-anxious families, these interactions are fun and playful. They don’t look like fights over homework. They’re just conversations that families can have around topics that are naturally interesting to children. And our hope is that when families have lots of these positive low-stakes interactions, they actually can see that we can talk about math in unstressful ways. In lots of ways, right? We can also do this at the grocery store. We can also do this while we’re cooking in the kitchen. It doesn’t just have to be fights over homework.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:14):
And I actually have the Bedtime Math — one of the Bedtime Math books. And I was so excited to find out that there’s an app. And I think one of the things that I loved about the book is that these are invitations, right? They’re exactly that. Low pressure <laugh>, and they’re invitations to have a conversation. And if we were just to tell parents, “Oh, just count!” or, “Hey, just count wherever you go!” You know? No. It’s, in a way, I think, like you said, it’s retraining the parents on what math could look like. Like, “Oh, I didn’t even think we could just kind of have this conversation and we’re actually doing math together.”
Marjorie Schaeffer (12:55):
Yes, absolutely. I absolutely agree. We want it to be fun and playful and not stressful. And we want it to also be things that are meaningful to children’s lives. So these are topics children are interested in. It’s not that we are using flashcards or making children practice math facts over and over again. These are things children should wanna do that can naturally fit into a child’s routine. So almost all families read books before bed, and what we hope is that math can also be a part of the nighttime routine.
Dan Meyer (13:27):
There’s something really subtle here going on that I just wanna name and ask a question about. First of all, it’s cool that you started with studying high-stakes stuff and now you are developing low-stakes stuff. And I’m really curious what makes a thing low-stakes? Like, a few things I’m hearing from you is that there’s, like … I have a small child that I read literature to on a nightly basis. And I feel very anxiety-free doing that. And it’s almost as though, because each of the — tasks is the wrong word for this, but experiences — involve some reading, it puts me, the parent, in a mode that is comfortable and familiar to me. I’m curious: Are there other, as you design, what, one per day for a year? All these different experiences. What are some of the principles that you lean on that help make a thing low-stakes for kids and for parents?
Marjorie Schaeffer (14:17):
Yeah, that’s a great question. So one thing we wanted to be really intentional about is that our app doesn’t look like a lot of traditional apps. There isn’t noises that go off. You don’t enter an answer. And so one of the things that we thought made it low-stakes is that while there is a right or wrong answer — there is a correct answer — we aren’t giving children upsetting feedback. Instead, what we wanna encourage families to do is, if you struggle to remember how many seconds it took the groundhog to come out of the hole, you can work through that with a parent. So it doesn’t feel like you’re getting negative feedback; you’re being told you’re bad at math; you did it wrong. Instead, you’re just getting natural support moving forward. And so that’s one thing we wanted to be really intentional about, was that it wasn’t going to be a negative experience for children. And we are trying to build on all of the positive interactions families are having around nightly book reading. So many ways this can look very similar. You get to read another story that’s topical and hopefully interesting. And then do these little questions together. And so for a lot of families, their children don’t actually really look at the question. It almost feels like the parent is just asking them on their own. Like, they just came up with it. They just wanted to know what would happen to the groundhog. If there were three more groundhogs? How many groundhogs would we have all together? Not like it’s gonna be like homework or other parts.
Dan Meyer (15:38):
So my understanding is that there isn’t a blank into which people type a number in, press “submit” for evaluation, receive the red X, the green check. That’s a key part of the design here.
Marjorie Schaeffer (15:50):
Yes, absolutely. And for research purposes, we would’ve loved to know what families were saying. But we think it’s really important that it’s fun, interactive, that families are working together to get to the right answer, that it’s not a test for children.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:03):
In your research, when you were — maybe you could walk us through the study a little bit. But I’m also curious if you heard from parents that it was carrying over beyond the bedtime routine. Because I would imagine, if I am building these skills and reading these questions and learning that I could talk to my kid like this about math in a fun way, that’s gonna happen then, like you said, when I’m in the grocery store. Or when I’m waiting in line for at the bank. Or whatever, you know? People go into banks now still, right?
Marjorie Schaeffer (16:35):
Yeah, absolutely. So in our study, we recruited almost 600 families and we randomly assigned them. So they had an equal chance of getting both our math app and what we call our control app. And that’s really just a math app without the math. We think of it as a reading control app. And that’s because we wanna make sure that families are having a similar experience, that it’s not just that having high-quality, fun interactions with your child is actually impacting children’s math achievement. And so what we then did is followed those children over the course of early elementary school. And so we worked with them in schools in the fall and spring of first, second, and third grade, really to look at their math learning. And so what we find is that children of high math-anxious adults, when they have the reading app, so what we think of as what’s happening in the real world, we see that really classic gap between children of high math-anxious adults and children of low math-anxious adults. So if you have a high math-anxious parent, you’re learning about three months less math over the course of first grade. But for children who receive this math app, we see this gap as closed. Those children look no different than a low math-anxious parent. And so that’s leading us to think that we’ve helped families talk about math in fundamentally different ways. We did a little bit of just talking to families to see a little bit about what might be going on. And a lot of families do report exactly what you’re describing, where they say this did help them talk about math in different ways they were doing it other times.
Dan Meyer (18:10):
That’s a really extraordinary study design. I don’t know … I love that you folks gave the control group not nothing. Like it’s possible that just parents and kids bonding over a thing regularly would be enough to provoke some kind of academic gain. But you gave the control group a thing that had them interacting socially, bonding, and still this large common gap between high-anxious and low-anxious parents, their kids shrunk together. Is that what I’m gathering here?
Marjorie Schaeffer (18:41):
Yeah, absolutely. So we’re basically seeing we can no longer, when we look at children’s data, say that parents’ math anxiety explains individual differences. So these children look really similar. They’re learning more than children who has a high math-anxious parent and just got our reading control app.
Dan Meyer (19:01):
just diving into the study a little bit more here, what is the time commitment? Or, did you guide parents to say, “All right, we’re gonna do this do this delightful story about a badger for an hour”? Or did people do it for five minutes? And what was the time commitment, roughly, for people?
Marjorie Schaeffer (19:17):
So we tell families to do it however they see fit. Because it is an app, we are able to get some sense of how long, and we are talking about three to six minutes for many families. For a lot of families, they’re reading a paragraph, the paragraph and a half, and then answering one or two questions. They’re not going through every possible question. They’re just doing a little bit, really meeting their kids where they are.
Dan Meyer (19:39):
Roughly how many times per week was that?
Marjorie Schaeffer (19:41):
So we asked families to do it as much as it fit. But we’re seeing about two and a half on average in the first year. And so families are fitting it in a couple of nights a week. It’s not every night.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:52):
So what it sounds like you’re saying is what really was powerful about this app is that it was the space and time and prompts between the caregiver and the child, that chance to really sit down and have some of these meaningful and positive math interactions. How did it shift those relationships?
Marjorie Schaeffer (20:12):
So one of the things I think that makes the app effective is the changing of expectations. After a year, families are really using the app a lot less. And I think that’s OK, that they have found other ways to incorporate math into their lives. And we find that we don’t see an impact on their math anxiety, that they aren’t becoming less math anxious from this experience. Which I think makes sense, because they have had a lifetime of math anxiety. But we do see a change in parents’ expectations and value of math. So they expect their children will be better at math, and they also report that math is more important in their children’s lives. And so I think that’s an important part of it, which is, we can change these values for families, even if we aren’t able to change the math anxiety of the adults in children’s lives.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (21:01):
I want to for a second before — because I’m loving this idea of the app, and I’m excited to find out more ways to cultivate these conversations in my home and also share this with other folks. Because even folks who don’t even maybe realize they have math anxiety … like you said, so often it’s unconscious. So often we’re putting these little snippets into our everyday conversation, like, “Oh yeah, I’m not a math person.” And we don’t even realize how much is impacting our kiddos and ourselves, right? So I am really curious: What do you think … in your research, what were some other takeaways that you feel like are really strategies that we can think about for combating math anxiety in general?
Marjorie Schaeffer (21:47):
So I’m particularly interested in thinking about how math-anxious adults can help tone down their anxiety so that they can have high-quality interactions with their children, that they interact with. And so one of the big takeaways for my research, I think, is that math-anxious families can help their children with math. They just need support. And so I think there are lots of ways for that support to look like. One, I think it can be an app, but I also think reading a little bit about math can be really helpful. So it’s not new. So the first time you aren’t thinking about some of these ideas is as your child has their homework open in front of you. And so you can process your own feelings separately before you have to do it with a child. I also think reminding parents that math is everywhere and that math is actually lots of things that we all love to do. Math isn’t just calculus. Not that calculus isn’t wonderful. But that math is measuring, math is counting ducks at the park. Math is talking about how many times did I go down this slide. And talking about math in this way, I think reminds families that they are great at that. That even if maybe they’ve had bad math experiences before, they can do math. Especially the way their preschool or early childhood, early elementary school student needs them to. And I think that can then set the foundation for being really successful later.
Dan Meyer (23:13):
So is your research then, your subsequent studies, your line of inquiry, is moving more towards how to support parents, then? Is that what I’m hearing?
Marjorie Schaeffer (23:22):
Yeah. So I’m really interested in both understanding how the math anxiety of parents and teachers influences children. And so math anxiety is really common and we know that it’s particularly common in early elementary school teachers. And so it’s very likely that children are interacting with a highly math-anxious adult. And so I’m really interested in thinking about how we can support those individuals in doing it. And so both, I think, things like Bedtime Math, which provide fun, unscripted ways to do that, but I’m also interested in the teacher equivalent. So, thinking about whether having things like a math coach can help teachers have more positive experiences with math. So if you see someone else play math games with your students, can that help you do it as well?
Dan Meyer (24:09):
It makes me wonder a lot about an app for teachers or an app for parents, one that’s not designed to be co-consumed with kids and their parents. But what that would look like … yeah, that’s really interesting.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:21):
If we have a parent who, let’s say they have a third grader, fourth grader, fifth grader, or a middle schooler, right? Outside of early education. And they say, “OK, but what do I do? I’m with my kiddo; I don’t remember this math.” And they’re realizing that their anxiety may be influencing their kiddos’ disposition of mathematics, Or maybe they’re just in the midst of the battle <laugh>. What would you say to those folks, especially if it’s math that maybe they’re not comfortable with?
Marjorie Schaeffer (24:56):
One, I think we should like tone down the stress, right? Remind ourselves that it’s homework and homework feels really high-stakes, but these other outcomes are really high-stakes too, right? And so I’m really interested in the idea that can we help parents feel more comfortable about math by watching their own children teach it to them. So what’s a concept that the fourth grader actually feels really good about? And can they remind their parent how to do it? Can, together, they problem-solve the math homework? And so it’s not just on the parent to give the child the right answer. We know that’s a recipe for communicating some negative things about math. But instead, help the parent-child pair figure it out together. So what are some resources we can do? Can we look it up on the internet together? Can we write an email to the teacher together? Can we think about what are other problems that maybe we know how to do, and therefore we can use that same model here? So I want parents to feel like they are not solely responsible for it. That they can help figure it out with their child together. And so it’s a fun interaction.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (26:02):
I love that. I love that.
Dan Meyer (26:03):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah. A conviction that I have, and I think it’s true, is that any math that we’re learning at middle school, the attraction can be dialed down to a degree that a very small child, or a parent who has a very small child’s understanding of math, can appreciate. So instead of calculation, estimation. Instead of proof, just make a claim about something. And it makes me wonder about a companion to the work that’s happening in schools that parents feel inadequate to support, that students might not want to teach their parents. But which they could both, on a daily basis, say, “Here’s a way we can engage in this at a level that is comfortable to both of us.” Just dreaming out loud here. No question asked. No response needed. I just love your work. And made me wonder about that. Can you let me know your thoughts about technology? It is very rare that we have someone on the call who is an academic and very well-versed in research, but who also is published not just in in papers and textbooks, but also in digital media. It’s consumed by lots of people. So I am trusting that you have opinions about how math looks in technology. And I wonder if you’d offer some thoughts about how it goes, right? How it goes wrong from your own eyes.
Marjorie Schaeffer (27:14):
OK. That’s a great question. I think that we need more research. I first wanna say that I think that technology has really exploded in the last few years. How children have access to technology and screen times has really changed. And what we need is high-quality research happening. That said, I think that all of the things we know from child-development research still apply to technology. And so we know that children learn best when they are engaging in interactions with their parents. And so when families can use technology together, or at least can talk about what’s happening, it can be really effective. I also think technology, especially math apps, are best at teaching concrete skills with very clear answers. So I think practicing math facts is a great use of technology. So I love that Sushi math app where you solve multiplication problems and then get to quickly pull the sushi off the cart, right? But for higher-level questions, where we’re thinking about word problems or where what we’re helping to teach students is complex thinking, apps have a harder time doing that. Because students can often figure out the answer without engaging in the thinking that we are hoping that they’ll learn. And so I think technology absolutely has a piece. I think technology is helpful for parents. I think the logistics of helping parents live their lives is a good reason to use technology. But I think we need to be conscious of what it’s replacing. And so I think a world in which we think fourth graders can learn math only from apps is not realistic. But absolutely apps can be a great supplement to what’s already happening in the classroom.
Dan Meyer (28:56):
Yeah, that’s super-helpful. We have done a lot of work in digital curriculum here at Amplify, and often face the question on a daily basis, “Should this math be digital or on paper? Should we have the students stand up and talk or type something?” And those decisions are way too crucial and way more sensitive than a lot of the app-based education gives credit to. So appreciate your perspective there.
Marjorie Schaeffer (29:22):
OK. And I don’t think there’s one answer, or one answer for all classrooms. I think it’s like always a balancing act. I do think that one of the reasons our work is successful is because the parent-child interaction. And we want parents to learn from these experiences. And I think the same thing is true for for teachers.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:41):
Dr. Schaeffer, thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing about your research, and again, for inviting us to reconsider ways that we can develop a more positive relationship with math. And that parent or caregiver or teacher relationship with a child, we’re seeing just how incredibly impactful that is. And I really appreciate your work and your voice on this. Thank you so much for your time.
Dan Meyer (30:07):
Thank you.
Marjorie Schaeffer (30:08):
Thank you for having me.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:12):
Thank you again, Dr. Schaeffer, and thank you all for listening to our conversation. You can check out the show notes for more on Dr. Schaeffer’s work and to see a link to the app that we shared about Bedtime Math.
Dan Meyer (30:25):
Please keep in touch with us on Facebook at Math Teacher Lounge Community, and on Twitter at MTLShow.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:32):
We would love to hear … you’ve been listening to this series; we’re dipping our toe into all these aspects of math anxiety. Is there something that you’re still wondering about? Something you wanna share about your own story with math anxiety?
Dan Meyer (30:43):
And if you haven’t already, if this is your first exposure to the Math Teacher Lounge podcast, please subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get your fine podcast products. And if you like what you’re hearing, please rate us! Leave us a review. You’ll help more listeners find the show.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:01):
And let a friend know. But you know, it’s, it’s nice and cozy here in the Lounge, right? There’s no pressure. We’re hanging out. It’s all about learning. We’re learning together. We’re glad you’re here and we want others in your community to join us in the Lounge as well. You can find more information on all of Amplify’s shows at our podcast hub. Go to amplifycom.wpengine.com/hub. Next time on Math Teacher Lounge, we’re gonna be chatting about where we are today that we weren’t a few months ago in this topic.
Dan Meyer (31:31):
We’ll be chatting about this last series about math anxiety, and trading our favorite insights and observations from the run of the season.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson (31:41):
I just love this series, Dan. And thanks, all, for listening. We really appreciate having you in the Lounge.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Tuesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month.
Meet the guest
Marjorie Schaeffer is an assistant professor of psychological sciences at Saint Mary’s College. She received her Ph.D in developmental psychology from the University of Chicago. Marjorie is interested in the role parents and teachers play in the development of children’s math attitudes and performance. She is specifically interested in the impact of expectations and anxiety and on children’s academic performance. Her work has been published in outlets including Science, Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, and Developmental Science.
About Math Teacher Lounge
Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.
Join the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group to continue the conversation, view exclusive content, interact with fellow educators, participate in giveaways, and more!
You might also like:
Winter Wrap-Up 01: Problem-solving and facilitating classroom discussions
As we prep for an exciting new season of Math Teacher Lounge: The Podcast, hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer are looking back at the amazing speakers and conversations from past episodes and sharing some of their favorites!
First up: A season 2 double feature of the power of problem-solving with Fawn Nguyen and Facilitating Classroom Discussions with authors Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind.
Fawn is a specialist on Amplify’s advanced math team and a former math teacher and math coach—so she knows her stuff! You’ll hear about her five criteria for good problem-solving problems, and the power and importance of exposing all students to problem-solving.
Then, we’ll move into Bethany and Dan’s conversation with Christy and Kassia to learn how hands-down conversations allow students to become better listeners and the steps you can take to implement hands-down conversations in your classroom.
Explore more from Math Teacher Lounge by visiting our main page.
Dan Meyer: (00:01)
Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. My name is Dan Meyer.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:03)
And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Hello! Happy New Year! Hello, Dan Meyer.
Dan Meyer: (00:09)
HNY, Bethany. HNY to you and to all of the listeners out there in Math Teacher Lounge. HNY is the abbreviation that I use sometimes.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:18)
Oh, is that what that is? Is that—I wasn’t sure what that was. If on my birthday you send me HBD…no.
Dan Meyer: (00:25)
Yeah.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:25)
No. Unacceptable.
Dan Meyer: (00:27)
I will. No, you want the full thing. To demonstrate my care for your birthday, I gotta spell the whole thing out. I’m just trying to stay relevant. You know, I’m just trying to stay relevant and youthful. So I’m using The Abreevs.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:38)
The Brevvies.
Dan Meyer: (00:40)
To the extent of even abbreviating the word “abbreviation.” . So, any New Year’s resolutions you wanna share with the listeners, Bethany? While you think, I’ll just share mine real quick here. This is the year of the perfect Wordle streak for yours truly, Dan Meyer. I’m going the full 365. Watch. Watch me do it, folks. I’m naming it here. Live on air. recorded on air. Perfect Wordle year. What you got for the listeners, Bethany?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:10)
Let’s see. It’s raining very hard here in Southern California, and my newest resolution is to embrace nature. My child wants nothing more than to go and splash in all the puddles.
Dan Meyer: (01:22)
Nice.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:23)
And be amongst the mud. And what I’m gonna keep telling myself—and so far, so far, I’ve been doing pretty good with this—thrive, child. Splash. Squish. We can dry you off. You will not melt. So I want to keep finding opportunities. Like, for instance, my response is, “It’s pouring rain. Let’s stay under covers and let’s read this book together!” And his response is like, banging on the windows, like, “Please let me go outside.” So I myself have some rain boots. I’m going to go forth and splash with my child. So hopefully you’ll see me doing that a bit more.
Dan Meyer: (02:08)
Love that.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:09)
Ask me what I’m doing. I’m outside, splashing in nature.
Dan Meyer: (02:12)
I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I have felt a bit like parenting is a means for rounding out aspects of my own personality that I have felt are—or habits or hobbies that are lacking. Like, I’ve never been real outdoorsy or into camping, but I don’t want that to limit my own kids’ aspirations or interests. So let’s do the thing that’s not super natural for me, for their own sake. Which is kind of what I’m hearing a little bit from you, which—that sounds exciting.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:35)
Do you wanna go camping together? Like, our families?
Dan Meyer: (02:38)
Uhhh. Let’s take this one off the air. I also love something that’s more relevant to a teachers audience that you said, that I think is super interesting, is how there’s ways that we can make the jobs harder for ourselves, that are optional. And what I hear from you is like, “I’m just not gonna freak out. We’re getting wet. We’re getting soggy. And I’m just not gonna freak out.” And I just think that that’s interesting to think about, the things that we take on, you know, that’s optional. Freaking out is optional, sometimes. And there’s other areas, I think, for parenting or for teaching, where it’s like, “Oh, do I really need to choose this particular battle?” And to reconsider that.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:19)
And in that spirit, our whole Wordle episode that we talked about? Do you remember you talked about how beautiful Wordle mistakes are, and how you keep learning from mistakes? I mean, you obviously want the final correct answer, but just, you know, when you get on a losing streak, Dan, I hope you’ll continue to pat yourself on the back.
Dan Meyer: (03:38)
Well, I will not be taking on a losing streak, or even lose one day. This is what’s gonna happen here. I’m just speaking that and putting it out in the universe.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:49)
Speak it!
Dan Meyer: (03:50)
But if it happens, I will be taking a long break from all human interaction. And lamenting, as I do.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:59)
Camping. Dan’s off in the woods, weeping.
Dan Meyer: (04:01)
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Well, we wanna share with you folks—an exciting programming note is that we are currently working very hard on producing a special fifth season of this podcast. You thought the other seasons were special? Let me tell you, this fifth season gives new meaning to the word “special.” And we can’t wait to tell you more about that. But in the meantime, Bethany, you wanna tell ’em what we’re up to in the meantime?
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (04:26)
Well, Dan and I went back and we were having a conversation about some of our most favorite conversations, or the conversations that people bring up to us. Like, when we were at the CMC conference, or NCTM, folks, when we talk about the podcast, they’re like, “Oh, I loved this one.” “Oh, I love this one.” And that, to me, I don’t know, that is exciting. And so, while we’re putting together this new season over these next few weeks, we’re gonna feature a few of our favorite conversations from our first four seasons. Dan, four seasons!
Dan Meyer: (04:59)
We’ve been at this for four seasons! And I do want to just emphasize something you said, Bethany: that all of our conversations are our favorite conversations. They’re all our special children. What we just felt like you, the listeners, did not quite learn enough from some of these, and so we really needed you to hear them again to make sure you got everything that you should get out of them. So, let’s tell ’em who’s up first. And who’s up first is a conversation we had about problem-solving with Fawn Nguyen, who’s an advanced math team specialist here at Amplify. Been a former math coach, math teacher. Just really done the work, is what I’d say about Fawn.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:38)
If you have been listening to this podcast, you’re like, “Whoa, whoa. Wait, I have not missed an episode. I didn’t hear Fawn’s interview.” That is because we used to be video only, not podcasts. So this conversation with Fawn was from, what, our second season?
Dan Meyer: (05:55)
Yeah.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:56)
And we were on video. And another thing about it is it was, this is a conversation that, when folks talk about problem-solving, a lot of the responses we’ve gotten are like, “Wait, I’ve never thought of problem-solving this way.” In fact, you’ll hear us say that exact thing . So we really appreciated the time with Fawn. And yeah.
Dan Meyer: (06:17)
Enjoy it, folks. Especially enjoy Fawn’s—I think a four-part?—definition of problem-solving, a word that’s often kind of mushily defined. And Fawn really goes into, I think, precision and depth on it. So hope you folks enjoy it.
Dan Meyer: (06:35)
Give a wave, Fawn, to the camera. Would you? Cool. Fawn has been a teacher for a very long time. She is someone who could have left the classroom at any point and taken any number of jobs in the math-teaching universe. But I’ve always admired that Fawn has taught kids for a very long time, and that has given her, in my view, just a lot of clarity on what is important to her about students. I’ve seen her not get upset or obsessed with certain kinds of small niche issues that a lot of us, like, they get a lot of us down in the classroom, sometimes. And she’s maintained a laser focus on among many other things, problem-solving as a virtue in mathematics classrooms. So, please welcome Fawn to our show. Fawn, thanks so much for being here.
Fawn Nguyen: (07:18)
Hey, thank you so much. Thank you. I am so excited and honored that you guys invited me for this, Bethany and Dan.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (07:24)
Thank you for being here.
Fawn Nguyen: (07:26)
I love you, Bethany. Dan, I can tolerate, but I love you.
Dan Meyer: (07:30)
I really worked myself up there on that complimentary opening for you, and that’s how you get me back, here? OK. Problem-solving is fully on the consciousness of math teachers. Every math teacher knows that they need to say, like, “Yeah, oh, problem-solving. Yes. Love it. Do it. I dig it.” But even so, I feel like it’s become kind of a buzzword. Like, it’s not always obvious what that means…or am I doing problem-solving, really? So we’re curious: As someone who is a problem-solving expert, who is asked all over the world to talk about problem-solving: How do I know if I’m doing problem-solving in my classroom?
Fawn Nguyen: (08:12)
This is not my definition of it, but—nor am I an expert, by the way, Dan, thank you! but I try really, really hard and work on it!—my definition—or it’s not my definition, but I like it because it’s short and honest—is “problem-solving is what we do when we don’t know what to do.” And so—
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (08:32)
Ooh!
Fawn Nguyen: (08:32)
—with that mind-frame, I’m hoping teachers think more about what they task. Because I think it gets mislabeled a lot, as to what is problem-solving. If the kids already know what to do, there’s a solution path. Then it’s not problem-solving.
Dan Meyer: (08:48)
Yeah. So what are examples then? An example of, like, I might call something problem-solving, but it it fails that particular definition that you just proposed there. Very short, very honest definition.
Fawn Nguyen: (08:59)
Just, it needs to have constraint and contradiction to what the kids think naturally. It should come as a surprise. There’s an element of surprise in it. There’s tension.
Dan Meyer: (09:11)
Maybe if there’s harder numbers or, you know, decimals or fractions in the same kind of procedure…I can feel myself thinking, “Yeah, this is hard. This is problem-solving. Problem-solving equals hard. But we already know what to do.”
Fawn Nguyen: (09:27)
Or just word problems. That’s the most common thing. As soon as it just has words attached to the math, it becomes problem-solving. But that’s just coding it to me. That’s just coding it with words, wrapping it around. It doesn’t mean anything until we read through and see if there’s true problem-solving in it.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (09:45)
Like, what’s the moment that it becomes problem-solving? In the way that you envision it?
Fawn Nguyen: (09:53)
Well, I think there’s the bigger problem-solving of really bringing a task…I wanna call it left field. It just—we rarely ever, if ever, see it in the regular coursework, but it can also be problem-solving if we just take what we expect the children to do at the end of the unit, how about we front-load that? To me, that’s also problem-solving. And I’m trying to encourage teachers to do that last problem first. The task writers put more thought—not that they don’t do the rest of it!—but you know, this is a special one, because they label it “challenge,” or “enrichment,” or “are you ready for more?” I’ve seen those. And so it is this really special problem. And I would love for us to think about “do that first.” Because my biggest fear is that because it comes at the end, that not all the children are involved. And so that to me is the saddest part. Because we might not get to it, right? In mathematics, we always think, “OK, well, let’s do these problems and then we don’t have time for the rest.” But I think that’s your richest task right there, is at the very end. So why don’t we front-load it, start it, and it’s OK—of course it’s OK!—that we don’t all get it. But the exposure to all students is so important. Talk about, you know, equity. Talk about that, everybody gets the same thing. If everyone dug into that first one with everybody’s collaboration, and we get to share that, and then we leave it, because “Yeah, OK, now we learn more of the other stuff, right? That hopefully support. And then we can go back. And now everybody had a chance to go get into it, and then we can come back to it as, as many problems, we need to go back to it.”
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (11:37)
And that feels so powerful. Because it feels like—as a teacher, I’m thinking it would also inform my work, how I approach the unit, and how I approach the next steps. Right? Like, what kind of work would we be doing if I let it, if I allow it, to change the way that I approach the unit.
Dan Meyer: (11:58)
Yeah. What you’re describing is so powerful, and really asks a lot of the task designers as well, I think. There are problem-solving tasks that really require, like, abstract knowledge of the way formulas and variables fit together. And what I love about what Amplify is doing with their problem-solving, what you’re helping them do, is that they start with a true low floor that can draw in every student. And they might get stuck at different places; that’s fine. But everyone has a way in. That’s exciting.
Fawn Nguyen: (12:24)
It’s a big deal for me to have this opportunity and this trust, to integrate problem-solving into the curriculum, make it intentional. It’s difficult to implement. It is, to be honest. Because for me, what is a good task? This makes one of my four criteria: One is, it is non-routine. It is simply stated. Simply stated—that’s like your low floor. And then has multiple solutions. And the fourth: This makes it. Because that the teacher enjoys solving it. And so you have to enjoy solving it to bring it. Because so that way I can say to my kids, “This is my gift.” It really is, Because, you know, it has so much fun and joy. And I appreciate the struggle. And I wanna illustrate an example. For example, let’s say Dan and I are classmates. And I know that Dan gets A’s on his tests and the lowest score he ever got was an 89%. I, on the other hand, just sitting right next to him, I average D. I have a D average on everything. While Bethany, our amazing and wonderful teacher, brings in a problem. And when she brings it in, she says, “I worked on this problem. I found this problem; I worked on it; and I struggled with it. And it was amazing. I enjoyed it so much, I’m sharing it with you.” And all of a sudden it’s like, “OK!” And I”m sitting there, right? My teacher loves this problem so much; she’s bringing it in to share with us. And now, all of a sudden, it’s not, you know…and I know she only gives us non-routine. When she talks about problem-solving, it’s non-routine. So it’s not directly tied to the textbook that I’ve been struggling with. So it gives me a chance, it gives me a chance to contribute. To think differently. And now, suddenly I look forward to working with Dan, because in this space, in this problem-solving space, Dan is no longer Mr. Know-It-All. And so that’s what I mean by—I am saying this a hundred times, and I will not stop saying it—problem-solving levels the playing field. Our world is filled with unsolved problems. Are you kidding me? Right? We look around us, we have so many things that are not solvable, or people are working on it, and yet in mathematics, what happens? The bell rings; we start; and we solve everything during that time, and we leave. And that’s…yeah. No! No! We need to wrestle with problems.
Dan Meyer: (15:04)
And that was our conversation with Fawn Nguyen, which we first released way back in November, 2021. You folks can follow Fawn on Twitter at Fawn P Nguyen. Um, that’s @ F A W N P N G U Y E N.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (15:18)
So our episode today is a double feature. We are featuring another conversation that we loved from Season Two. This is a conversation with Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind. They’re authors of the book, “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math.” And I don’t know if you remember, but not only did we have a conversation with them, but we did a whole book study on Facebook, a Facebook Live book study, over the course of several months. And it was one of my most favorite things. And then they did a webinar at the end. So our conversation with them on the podcast for me felt like such a beautiful dive into their book. And you know, I’ve said it before, you think you have something down in the classroom, you’re like, “Oh, hand-raising, I’ve got that down.” You think you have it down, but then somebody says, “OK, but have you ever considered thiiiis?” You know, and it just—
Dan Meyer: (16:17)
NOT that??
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:18)
, Not that? Something totally different? And I loved talking with them. They’re a lot of fun. And I loved the book.
Dan Meyer: (16:23)
Wonderful conversation, great book. Very provocative ideas. Yeah. As someone who’s like, “OK, classroom management, I gotta get the hand-raising going…”. In the classroom before we talked, they offered a really potent challenge to some really standard classroom management ideas. Yeah. Loved it.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:40)
And this conversation also offers some really practical tips for facilitating student conversations. So we think you’ll enjoy it. Here’s our conversation with Christy and Kassia.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:53)
So today we are talking about “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math, K—5.” And we have the authors here, Kassia Omohundro Wedekind and Christy Hermann Thompson. Before we begin, let’s define what a hands-down conversation is. A hands-down conversation is just another way to structure discourse in your classroom. So in a typical classroom, you might see students raising their hand and waiting on a teacher to call on them before they share their ideas or engage in discussion. But in a hands-down conversation, it’s students’ ideas and voices that are taking the lead, and teachers are stepping back and focusing on listening and facilitating. Hello! Welcome to the Lounge.
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (17:44)
Thank you. We’re excited to be here. We’re fans of Season One. So we’re ready to go.
Dan Meyer: (17:50)
I was a secondary teacher but I still found so much to love about the book. I think facilitating conversations is just generally challenging, and perhaps even more so in math, where answers feel so tightly dialed-in, in lots of ways. But I loved it. I would love for you to just explain to our audience, what is a hands-down conversation and how does that contrast with what might be standard practice for some people? For some classes?
Christy Hermann Thompson: (18:13)
We just started using the term hands-down conversation because we wanted to differentiate the fact that there are different times to have different types of dialogue in the math classroom, in the literacy classroom. And we use this as one of our tools. Right? It’s not that every day, all day long, we’re very against hand-raising and should never see that again. We find that having this as one of our tools will be where we make really clear to the students that this is a moment where we’re turning it over to you to negotiate the space and make the decisions about when your voice comes in and who speaks next. You know, carry on kind of like that dinner table or that playground or, you know, whatever is your natural habitat for talk. And bringing that into the classroom and then hoping that it also someday transfers back out of the classroom back into the real world.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (19:09)
For the teachers who feel like that’s terrifying to have students just start speaking, and speaking without any sort of control or my little equity sticks, my little popsicle sticks, or my popcorn, or whatever other thing they’re using, what would you say is the first step?
Christy Hermann Thompson: (19:25)
So I think recognizing and naming that fear is part of it. And then saying to yourself, “What’s the worst that could happen here?” You know, I think the worst that could happen is that nobody talks and it’s totally silent. Or on the other hand, everybody talks at the same time. And both of those things will happen! And so what? It’s gonna be messy. And if you just acknowledge that it’s gonna look messy, and that’s part of growing; that every child as they learn—and every adult—is messy as they grow.
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (19:59)
And we have to see what kinds of things will happen in a hands-down conversation. Like there’s no prerequisite. You just start and then you see what happens. And those are the signs that tell you, “What can help this community grow as talkers and listeners? If everyone’s talking at the same time, and they’re kind of pushing each other over with their words by saying, “I have something to add!” “I have something to add!” or something like that, that’s a common thing that sometimes happens at the beginning. Then you know that the next step is to do some work about how to hold your thoughts back, how to add, wait for a space in the conversation to talk. And those are all things we need people to know out in the world.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (20:41)
So can you give an example of a micro-lesson that…well, first, what do you define as a micro-lesson? And then, what’s an example of one that maybe somebody who wants to dip their toe into the world of hands-down conversations that they could try?
Christy Hermann Thompson: (20:56)
The reason we call them micro-lessons is because we wanted to differentiate from the term mini lesson, which is out there and tends to describe about 10 or 15 minutes that might take place at the beginning of a work period of time. And this is much smaller than that. We usually follow a pretty predictable structure of naming. Here’s this thing that’s so helpful when we’re having conversations, and we love to especially be able to name something that a student had done: “Kaylee did this yesterday and it really helped us.” So what we might call that is, “And then here’s how Kaylee and other people might do that. They might do something like this.” And, you know, having a little anchor chart, so there’s a visual reminder of that skill. “So when we’re having a conversation today, you could try…”. And that’s basically a micro-lesson, just in a nutshell.
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (21:51)
When I was doing these hands-down conversations and I had more space for myself to listen as a teacher, I’m like, “Well, look at those kids, like, slumped onto the ground, like, pulling the carpet apart, but they’re having this amazing conversation!” And so I learned that listening is a lot broader. So in this lesson that I’m thinking about, we just talk with kids about what are lots of different ways that listening can look like. Sometimes with younger kids, I’ll take pictures of them listening in different ways and we’ll notice things about them together. And then we invite them to talk with their Turn and Talk partner about like, “How do you like to be listened to?” Or “Tell me about how you listen.” And just kind of broaden that. And really, I like to think that like the micro-lessons are for the kids, but also I’m saying those things to say them for myself. Like, “Remember, you don’t have to insist that kids are staring each other down in the eyes all the time. Like, “It’s OK when they’re doing other things. There’s other ways of listening.” So I think I’ve learned as much from the micro-lessons each time I do them as the kids that I’m trying to help grow as listeners and talkers, as well.
Dan Meyer: (23:00)
You folks have a lot of really eloquent ideals you express, around democratic classrooms and engagement. But you also have just some very tangible, practical…even down to, like, how a teacher positions their body in space and the way they use their eyes to connect. I think it would be really helpful for teachers to hear that it’s not just they’re signing on to a manifesto of sorts, but there’s ways they can act their way into the beliefs that you both expressed here.
Christy Hermann Thompson: (23:26)
When I’m starting hands-down conversation work, if I put myself a little bit outside of the circle and look down, and give myself a clipboard, it, it helps me bite my tongue and it helps me give better wait time and see what the kids are doing before I have that tendency to jump in and teach and do lots of teacher-y things.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (23:48)
Kassia and Christy, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have this conversation and to share your work. This is exciting. And I feel like this conversation is just the beginning of a deeper dive into this book.
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (24:01)
Thanks for having us.
Christy Hermann Thompson: (24:02)
Thank you.
Dan Meyer: (24:03)
Thank you both.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:06)
Thanks so much for listening to our conversations with Fawn Nguyen and Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind, both of which were released in 2021, part of our second season. And, you know, we hoped you enjoyed listening to it for a first, second, maybe third, fourth time.
Dan Meyer: (24:24)
Let’s be real. There’s some real fans out there.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:26)
We loved it then. We love it now!
Dan Meyer: (24:28)
Yep, yep, yep. Please keep in touch with the show by following us on Twitter at MTL Show, and join our Facebook group, the Math Teacher Lounge community. We’d love to hear from you there. And please stay tuned for more info on what we’re cooking up here in the Math Teacher Lounge. Thank you folks for listening. Take care, Bethany.
Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:47)
Bye now.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Tuesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month.
Meet the guests
Fawn Nguyen
Fawn began her work with Amplify in 2022 as a Math Advance Team Specialist. She was a math coach for a K-8 school district for three years, and a middle school teacher for 30 years before that. Fawn has also received a number of accolades as an educator.
Christy Thompson
Christy Thompson is a Literacy Coach in Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia. She has spent her teaching and coaching career particularly focused on listening to and learning from the talk of our youngest students.
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind spent many wonderful years as a classroom teacher and math coach in Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia and now splits her time between being an independent math coach and an editor at Stenhouse Publishers. Her favorite days are spent in classrooms learning from the many ways children talk, listen and negotiate meaning together.
About Math Teacher Lounge: The podcast
Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer) chat with guests, taking a deep dive into the math and educational topics you care about.
Join the Math Teacher Lounge Facebook group to continue the conversation, view exclusive content, interact with fellow educators, participate in giveaways, and more!
You might also like:
Families and caregivers, welcome to Amplify Desmos Math California K–5!
Welcome to the Amplify Desmos Math California K–5 Caregiver Hub. We hope your student enjoys exploring math, working with friends to solve problems, and learning new and interesting concepts. And we hope you enjoy the math journey with them! Below are some suggestions and resources for how you can support their learning at home.
Learn more about Amplify Desmos Math California.
Para la versión en español, haga clic aquí.
Caregiver Unit Resources
For every unit of the program, we’ve created a Caregiver Resource that provides a summary of key concepts, plus a problem from the lesson practice set you can work through with your student. You’ll find a Caregiver Resource for each unit, in both English and Spanish.
Unit 1: Math in Our World
Unit 2: Numbers 1–10
Unit 3: Flat Shapes All Around Us
Unit 4: Understanding Addition and Subtraction
Unit 5: Make and Break Apart Numbers Within 10
Unit 6: Numbers 0–20
Unit 7: Solid Shapes All Around Us
Unit 1: Adding, Subtracting, and Working With Data
Unit 2: Addition and Subtraction Story Problems
Unit 3: Adding and Subtracting Within 20
Unit 4: Numbers to 99
Unit 5: Adding Within 100
Unit 6: Measuring Lengths of Up to 120 Length Units
Unit 7: Geometry and Time
Unit 1: Working With Data and Solving Comparison Problems
Unit 2: Adding and Subtracting Within 100
Unit 3: Measuring Length
Unit 4: Addition and Subtraction on the Number Line
Unit 5: Numbers to 1,000
Unit 6: Geometry and Time
Unit 7: Adding and Subtracting Within 1,000
Unit 8: Equal Groups
Unit 1: Introducing Multiplication
Unit 2: Area and Multiplication
Unit 3: Wrapping Up Addition and Subtraction Within 1,000
Unit 4: Relating Multiplication to Division
Unit 5: Fractions as Numbers
Unit 6: Measuring Length, Time, Liquid Volume, and Weight
Unit 7: Two-Dimensional Shapes and Perimeter
Unit 1: Factors and Multiples
Unit 2: Fraction Equivalence and Comparison
Unit 3: Extending Operations to Fractions
Unit 4: From Hundredths to Hundred Thousands
Unit 5: Multiplicative Comparison and Measurement
Unit 6: Multiplying and Dividing Multi-Digit Numbers
Unit 7: Angles and Properties of Shapes
Unit 1: Volume
Unit 2: Fractions as Quotients and Fraction Multiplication
Unit 3: Multiplying and Dividing Fractions
Unit 4: Multiplication and Division With Multi-Digit Whole Numbers
Unit 5: Place Value Patterns and Decimal Operations
Unit 6: More Decimal and Fraction Operations
Unit 7: Shapes on the Coordinate Plane
Unit refresh videos
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 2 – Answering the Question “Are There Enough?”
- Sub-Unit 3 – Counting and Cardinality
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Comparing 2 Groups Using the Terms More, Fewer, and Same
- Sub-Unit 2 – Counting Objects in Different Orders
- Sub-Unit 3 – Making Groups to Represent Numerals
- Sub-Unit 4 – Comparing Written Numbers
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Identifying Circles and Triangles in Different Sizes and Orientations
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Positional Words to Describe the Location of Shapes
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding and Subtracting Within 10
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Addition and Subtraction Story Problems
- Sub-Unit 3 – Finding the Values of Expressions
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Decomposing Numbers in More Than 1 Way
- Sub-Unit 2 – Solving for Both Parts
- Sub-Unit 3 – Breaking Apart 10
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Organizing Data to Count How Many in Each Category
- Sub-Unit 2 – Counting on to Add and Counting Back to Subtract
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing 2 Categories of Data With Addition Equations
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing and Solving Add To, Change Unknown Story Problems
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Addition or Subtraction to Find an Unknown Part of a Total Amount
- Sub-Unit 3 – Solving Compare, Difference Unknown Problems
- Sub-Unit 4 – Making Sense of Story Problems With Different Questions
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Finding a Difference Using the Relationship Between Addition and Subtraction
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Structure of Teen Numbers to Find Missing Addends
- Sub-Unit 3 – Breaking Apart Addends to Make 10 When Adding
- Sub-Unit 4 – Subtracting From Teen Numbers in Parts to Get to 10
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding a Ten To and Subtracting a Ten From Multiples of 10
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing and Writing Two-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Two-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 4 – Representing the Same Two-Digit Number With Different Amounts of Tens and Ones
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding a Number of Tens or Ones to a Two-Digit Number
- Sub-Unit 2 – Adding a Two-Digit Number and a One-Digit Number When Composing a Ten is Necessary
- Sub-Unit 3 – Adding a Two-Digit Number and a Two-Digit Number When Composing a Ten is Necessary
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Choosing Strategies to Add Within 20
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Data in a Picture Graph and Bar Graph
- Sub-Unit 3 – Finding the Difference Between 2 Categories Shown on a Bar Graph
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Strategies to Solve Story Problems Involving Money
- Sub-Unit 2 – Decomposing a Ten When Subtracting by Place
- Sub-Unit 3 – Making Sense of Story Problems About Comparing That Use the Word More
- Sub-Unit 4 – Making Sense of One- and Two-Step Story Problems
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Measuring the Length of an Object in Centimeters Using a Ruler
- Sub-Unit 2 – Measuring Objects in Inches and Feet
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Measurement Data on a Line Plot
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Locating Numbers on Number Lines
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Addition and Subtraction Strategies on a Number Line
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Composing Hundreds to Represent Three-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 2 – Comparing Three-Digit Numbers
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Equal-Groups Situations With Equal-Groups Drawings
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Arrays With Multiplication Equations
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Data Using Scaled Bar Graphs
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle Using Counting and Skip Counting
- Sub-Unit 2 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle Using Multiplication
- Sub-Unit 3 – Decomposing to Determine the Area of Rectilinear Figures
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using the Expanded Form and Partial Sums Algorithms to Add
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Expanded Form Algorithm to Subtract
- Sub-Unit 3 – Rounding Numbers to the Nearest Hundred and Ten Using Number Lines
- Sub-Unit 4 – Representing and Solving Two-Step Story Problems Involving Multiplication
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Division Situations With Equal-Groups Drawings
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing an Equal-Groups Problem With a Division and Multiplication Equation
- Sub-Unit 3 – Using the Distributive Property of Multiplication to Multiply a One-Digit Number by a Teen Number
- Sub-Unit 4 – Decomposing Dividends to Divide
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Writing Unit and Non-Unit Fractions
- Sub-Unit 2 – Locating Non-Unit Fractions on the Number Line
- Sub-Unit 3 – Identifying Equivalent Fractions
- Sub-Unit 4 – Comparing Fractions With the Same Denominator or Same Numerator
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using Factor Pairs to Determine All the Possible Side Lengths of a Rectangle With a Given Area
- Sub-Unit 2 – Finding Multiples and Common Multiples
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Locating Fractions with Different Denominators On the Same Number Line
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using Multiples or Factors to Determine Equivalent Fractions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Fractions Using Equivalent Fractions With Common Denominators
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Adding and Subtracting Fractions with the Same Denominator
- Sub-Unit 2 – Multiplying Whole Numbers and Fractions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Adding Fractions with Denominators of 10 and 100
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Writing Fractions With Denominators of 10 and 100 as Decimals
- Sub-Unit 2 – Relationships Between Place Values in Multi-Digit Whole Numbers
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Multi-Digit Numbers
- Sub-Unit 4 – Using the Standard Algorithm to Subtract When Decomposing is Required
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Multiplicative Comparison Situations
- Sub-Unit 2 – Converting Measurements in the Metric System
- Sub-Unit 3 – Comparing Measurements
Unit 1
- Sub-Unit 1 – Using the Layered Structure of a Rectangular Prism to Determine the Volume
- Sub-Unit 2 – Determining the Volume of a Rectangular Prism
- Sub-Unit 3 – Determining the Volume of Figures Composed of Rectangular Prisms
Unit 2
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Equal-Sharing Story Problems with Fractional Quotients
- Sub-Unit 2 – Representing Fractions with Equivalent Multiplication and Division Expressions
- Sub-Unit 3 – Determining the Area of a Rectangle With a Fractional Side Length
Unit 3
- Sub-Unit 1 – Representing Multiplication of 2 Unit Fractions with Diagrams
- Sub-Unit 2 – Dividing Whole Numbers by Unit Fractions
Unit 4
- Sub-Unit 1 – Multiplying Multi-digit Whole Numbers Using the Partial Products and Standard Algorithms
- Sub-Unit 2 – Dividing Multi-Digit Whole Numbers Using Partial Quotients
- Sub-Unit 3 – Representing Multi-Step Story Problems with Equations
Unit 5
- Sub-Unit 1 – Comparing Decimals
- Sub-Unit 2 – Using the Standard Algorithms to Add and Subtract Decimals
- Sub-Unit 3 – Multiplying a Whole Number and a Decimal Using the Distributive Property
- Sub-Unit 4 – Dividing Whole Numbers by Decimals Less Than 1
Access Amplify Desmos Math California at home.
In addition to a print Student Edition workbook, your student will have digital access to all learning, practice, and assessment materials through the Amplify platform. The digital curriculum can be accessed in school and at home by following these instructions:
- Click the Amplify Desmos Math California button.
- Select Log in with Amplify.
- Enter your student’s username and password provided by your student’s teacher.
- Select the desired grade level.
Once logged in, caregivers can view student work by opening previous assignments.
Learn how to navigate the student home page.
Materials overview
Amplify Desmos Math California address blended learning with supporting print materials and a unique digital experience. All K–5 lessons are available in a write-in Student Edition book. Many of the lessons include hands-on activities with manipulatives, tools that help students understand abstract concepts by making them tangible. Your student will also work with digital devices for an age-appropriate number of lessons.
When students use devices, teachers can monitor their work in real time, making sure they get the exact support that they need at every part of the lesson, in and outside of class.
Components of a lesson
Students in an Amplify Desmos Math California classroom can be seen (and heard!) asking questions, debating answers, justifying their thinking, grappling with problems, and working together and independently.
A typical Amplify Desmos Math California lesson includes:
- Warm-up: A short, attention-getting problem to pique students’ interest in the lesson.
- Activities: One to two mini-activities that challenge students’ problem-solving skills.
- Synthesis: Discussion to review and bring together the important concepts from the lesson.
- Show What You Know and Reflection: Questions for students to show what they know from the lesson. (Note: The Show What You Know lesson assessment is optional for kindergarten and grade 1.)
- Centers: Student-led activity stations that reinforce the math learned during lesson activities through interactive and often game-like formats. In kindergarten and grade 1, time for Centers is built into the last 15 minutes of every lesson.
To support, strengthen, and stretch students’ learning after the lesson, Amplify Desmos Math California offers options for:
- Differentiation: Mini-Lessons, Centers, Extensions, Boost Personalized Learning, and Fluency Practice.
- Practice: Additional problems your student’s teacher may assign for classwork or homework.
Support math learning at home.
You can support your student’s math learning outside of school in many ways:
Your student’s teacher may assign practice problems at the end of each lesson for classwork or homework. If your student has already completed the practice problems for the lesson, ask them to walk you through how they solved each problem, or talk about any parts that were challenging for them. Ask your student follow-up questions to encourage the use of math language as they explain their thinking, such as, “How do you know?,” “How can you show your thinking?,” or “How would you describe that?” If students are stuck, ask support questions, such as, “What information do you know here?” or “How could you represent this problem?”
Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game with students in the lesson or beyond the lesson. These games are aligned to the math of the unit and can be played with students outside of class. Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game to students during or after completing a lesson, or you may need to teach the game before you play by using easy-to-follow instructions. Sign up for a free account to explore Centers and additional K–5 content in our Featured Collections.
Each unit in Amplify Desmos Math begins with a read-aloud story to engage students and provide context for the math of the unit. Elements and characters from the Unit Story then appear in lessons throughout the unit.
Kindergarten
- Unit 1 Story: The First Day of School
- Unit 2 Story: What’s in a Restaurant?
- Unit 3 Story: A Great Shape Adventure
- Unit 4 Story: Casey’s Town
- Unit 5 Story: Where is Harry?
- Unit 6 Story: Winners
- Unit 7 Story: Everybody Needs Help Sometimes
Grade 1
- Unit 1 Story: Ying’s New Town
- Unit 2 Story: Let’s Grow!
- Unit 3 Story: Impossible
- Unit 4 Story: The Collectors
- Unit 5 Story: The Day of the Wazzle-Squash
- Unit 6 Story: Side by Side
- Unit 7 Story: A Potluck for Pia
Grade 2
- Unit 1 Story: A New Class Pet
- Unit 2 Story: The Heroes of Pineapple Street
- Unit 3 Story: What Orson Imagined
- Unit 4 Story: A Seed’s Journey
- Unit 5 Story: 302 Ricotta Drive
- Unit 6 Story: Arjun the Artist
- Unit 7 Story: Where Eli Went
- Unit 8 Story: On Clementine Court
Grade 3
- Unit 1 Story: My Name Is Harper
- Unit 2 Story: Cheri’s New Home
- Unit 3 Story: The View From Up Here
- Unit 4 Story: Home Cooking
- Unit 5 Story: Coen and Obita
- Unit 6 Story: Just Stick With It, Sasha
- Unit 7 Story: Through Piho’s Eyes
Grade 4
- Unit 1 Story: I Contain Multitudes
- Unit 2 Story: One Step at a Time
- Unit 3 Story: Finny
- Unit 4 Story: Myles and the Loggerheads
- Unit 5 Story: Just for Fun
- Unit 6 Story: Special Day, Special Lei
- Unit 7 Story: Captain Bogwart’s Treasure
Grade 5
Relate math to daily activities at home, whether grocery shopping, preparing a meal, or planning for a trip to the store. Your student can help you figure out how many more apples there are than oranges in the grocery cart, show how to split a sandwich into fourths, or figure out how much change you’ll receive in exchange for a $10 bill. Encourage your student to point out ways that you use math in your daily tasks.
Remind your student that getting stuck is part of the process and a necessary—beneficial, even!—part of learning. Many students (and adults) fear making mistakes. But research shows that making mistakes helps our brains grow. When your student gets stuck on a problem, encourage them to keep trying different strategies, even if they’re not sure if they are right.
Get more information.
Have a question about Amplify Desmos Math California? Visit our help library to search for articles with answers to your program questions. For additional support, please contact your student’s teacher.
Your Beyond My Years 2024 recap!
In August of last year, our teaching podcast Beyond My Years took its first steps—and in no time we were exploring a lot of new territory on our journey to soak up teacher advice and wisdom from seasoned educators across the globe. Their experiences became our experiences. So let’s recap some of the top moments of 2024.
In 2024 on Beyond My Years we:
Traveled 3,469 miles to Stasia, Alaska.
We ventured all the way to the northernmost part of Alaska alongside Patti and Rod Lloyd to teach in a rural indigenous community. Joining such a rich and unique culture as outsiders taught Patti and Rod the importance of learning from their students.
“Even though they’re coming to me at five and six years old, they are coming with a lot of rich knowledge that I don’t have. And if I remain open and work with them, I’ve got a lot to learn.” —Rod Lloyd
Went back to school at the age of 80.
When the United Kingdom put out a call in 2020 for retired educators to return to aid a national shortage, Eric Jones knew he still had more left to teach, even at the age of 80! He knows that to stay in the education field as long as he has you need to celebrate and honor all areas of what a teacher does. When you honor every piece of the work you can do, you can make sure every moment stays aligned with your goals and serves your students.
“I like teaching kids things they didn’t know before and now they’re excited about. I love the idea that they will then move on into realms of industry and economic success that I would never dream of.” —Eric Jones
Shared our first Amplify podcast episode entirely in Spanish.
We even had our first bonus episode entirely in Spanish with Luz Selenia Muñoz. She taught us that some things transcend language—like the importance of knowing the “why” behind student behavior. According to Luz, whether your classroom is monolingual or multilingual, it is important to make connections with your students. You will see what they need and know what their triggers are. Behavior improves when you understand what your kids are going through.
“Yo creo que le diría que tenga paciencia. Paciencia. Que respire. Que las cosas van a mejorar cada día.” —Luz Selenia Muñoz
“I think I would tell them to be patient. Be patient. Breathe. Things will change for the better with every passing day.” —Luz Selenia Muñoz
Took time for ourselves.
Kamphet Pease called out the overachiever in all of us educators. An important piece of teacher advocacy: We all took a hard look at our school to-do lists together and recognized that we have to do better at prioritization—including prioritizing self-care.
“Make sure you take care of yourself as well. Take the time to go for a walk, take the time to take a bubble bath, cook for yourself, whatever you find enjoyment in.” —Kamphet Pease
Want even more of the best of the best from season one of Beyond My Years, which is brought to you by the team that produces Science of Reading: The Podcast? Download our key takeaways, a curated collection of invaluable wisdom and practical guidance from our lineup of inspiring educator guests.
More to explore:
Top 5 back-to-school tips for math teachers
Math teachers: What’s the formula for a successful year? As you know, there are plenty of variables, but here’s one constant: being prepared for back-to-school season.
We’re here to help!
From fun math activities to positive tone-setting to professional learning opportunities and more, our strategies are designed to help you enter your math classroom for the new school year feeling energized, inspired, and supported by your math community.
1. First-day fun: Plan interactive math classroom activities.
Before launching into back-to-school math lessons, how about a few rounds of Icebreaker Bingo? Create a Bingo card inviting students to find classmates who can answer “yes” to math-related descriptions (e.g., “Enjoys cooking or baking,” “Plays a musical instrument,” “Likes to play board games”). Activities like these motivate students by helping them uncover common interests and reminding them that math is an integral part of “real life.”
2. Student success: Work with school colleagues and leadership toward shared goals.
Review what systems may already be in place and consider adding more. You might:
- Schedule regular team meetings to set and work toward common goals.
- Establish a professional learning community to share math resources for teachers. For example: Consider hosting a Learning Lab to encourage collaborative professional learning from within the classroom.
- Amp up the use of data to inform decisions. Ask your team: What student performance data and assessment results can we use to see where improvements are needed?
3. Set the tone for the year: We are here to make mistakes.
As Math Teacher Lounge podcast co-host Dan Meyer says, “Students spend the majority of their learning in class [being] wrong.” That’s not only normal, it’s actually good—as long as students know that. Start the year by reminding them that making mistakes is not only inevitable, but also essential. Normalizing being “wrong” encourages students to overcome fear of failure, take risks, and build confidence—in school math activities and beyond.
4. Grow together: Establish a math community.
Build a math ecosystem connecting students to one another and creating a continuum between the classroom and their everyday lives. You might:
- Establish math routines in your classroom to build a classroom community focused on collaborative learning.
- Collaborate with students on writing a weekly math blog or math newsletter with classroom updates.
- Create simple but engaging math challenges for students and caregivers to do together, such as building toothpick towers or budgeting for a fantasy birthday party.
5. Use free professional learning opportunities for teachers from the math team at Amplify.
Explore our upcoming math webinars, designed to support you—along with your schools and districts—in using collaborative, effective, and engaging math practices in the classroom.
You can also check out our on-demand math webinar library on your own time. From quick tips to longer continuing education (CE) credit options, our library is sure to have just what you need.
Finally, our free toolkit of math resources will:
- Help you craft a dynamic math curriculum during the crucial first weeks of school.
- Support student engagement and spark new inspiration in your classroom practices and activities.
- Offer learning opportunities you can access now or on demand whenever you need them.
- Make it even easier for you to implement the tips above setting math students up for success from day one of the school year!
Amplify CKLA 3rd Edition Pilot Packs
Beginning-of-year pilot
We know it can be overwhelming to start a new curriculum, but we’re here to help every step of the way! Within this site, you’ll find resources to help you get started before your implementation training, including a materials checklist, unit and domain summaries, support videos, and more. These tools will support your core literacy instruction with Amplify CKLA during your pilot period. We hope this site is helpful in getting you started.
Beginning-of-year pilot
Get started
To get started with your new pilot of Amplify CKLA 3rd Edition, you’ll first want to review the following:
You may also find the resources below helpful as you begin your pilot:
Access key materials designed to support your review of Amplify CKLA 3rd Edition.
- Program Guide
- Components checklist
- Knowledge Sequence
- Unit Summaries
- Full Program Review site
- Password: TheNextChapter
Amplify CKLA’s all-in-one digital platform offers essential tools that streamline instruction for teachers and engage students with meaningful content. Teachers can plan and deliver lessons efficiently, while students can access assignments, assessments, and fun practice games.
Presentation Screens
Deliver interactive lessons with ready-made, customizable slides for every lesson.
Auto-scored digital assessments
Assess vocabulary, comprehension, and knowledge development at the end of each K–2 Knowledge and 3–5 Integrated Unit.
Standards-based reports
Identify strengths and growth areas for individuals or your entire class. Interactive dashboards offer detailed results from assessments and activities.
Skill-building practice games
Engage students with interactive games that reinforce concepts and make learning fun. Powered by Boost Reading™, these games align with lessons and provide real-time feedback.
eReader
Students access texts, take notes, and use audio-enabled eReaders to enhance their reading experience.
Sound Library
Students watch articulation videos and listen to songs for each sound to support phonological awareness.
Beginning-of-year Pilot Pack materials
Below are the components of your Amplify CKLA Pilot Pack, organized by grade level and teacher/student materials. Please click on your grade level to review the teacher and student materials listed and verify that all items have been received.
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 5 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 4 Big Book
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 5 Big Book
Teacher materials
Small Letter Card Set
Teacher materials
Large Letter Card Set
Teacher materials
Sound Posters Sample
Teacher materials
Sound Cards Sample
Teacher materials
Skills Assessment Guide (Black Line Master)
Teacher materials
Knowledge 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 1 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Image Cards
Student materials
Skills 1–5 Activity Book Sample
Student materials
Chaining Folder
Student materials
Picture Reader Sample
Student materials
Knowledge 1–4 Activity Book Sample
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 1 Big Book
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Big Book
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Big Book
Teacher materials
Code Poster Set
Teacher materials
Spelling Card Set
Teacher materials
Large Letter Card Set
Teacher materials
Skills Assessment Guide (Black Line Master)
Teacher materials
Knowledge 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 1 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Image Cards
Student materials
Skills 1–3 Activity Book
Student materials
Skills Unit 1 Reader
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Reader
Student materials
Skills Unit 3 Reader
Student materials
Knowledge 1-4 Activity Book Sample
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Code Posters
Teacher materials
Spelling Card Set
Teacher materials
Skills Assessment Guide (Black Line Master)
Teacher materials
Knowledge 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Knowledge 2 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 3 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Knowledge 4 Image Cards
Student materials
Skills 1–3 Activity Book Sample
Student materials
Skills Unit 1 Reader
Student materials
Skills Unit 2 Reader
Student materials
Skills Unit 3 Reader
Student materials
Knowledge 1-4 Activity Book Sample
Teacher materials
Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 4 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 1 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Unit 4 Image Cards
Teacher materials
Spelling Card Set
Student materials
Unit 1–2 Activity Book
Student materials
Unit 3 Poet’s Journal
Student materials
Unit 4 Activity Book
Student materials
Unit 1 Reader
Student materials
Unit 2 Reader
Student materials
Unit 4 Reader
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 1 Teacher Guide (supplemental)
Teacher materials
Skills Unit 2 Teacher Guide (supplemental)
Teacher materials
Skills Assessment Guide Black Line Master (supplemental)
Student materials
Skills Activity Book: Unit 1–2 Black Line Master (supplemental)
Teacher materials
Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 4 Teacher Guide
Student materials
Unit 1–2 Activity Book
Student materials
Unit 3 Poet’s Journal
Student materials
Unit 4 Inventor’s Notebook
Student materials
Unit 1 Reader
Student materials
Unit 2 Reader
Student materials
Unit 4 Reader
Teacher materials
Unit 1 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 2 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 3 Teacher Guide
Teacher materials
Unit 4 Teacher Guide
Student materials
Unit 1–2 Activity Book
Student materials
Poet’s Journal
Student materials
Unit 4 Activity Book
Student materials
Unit 1 Reader
Student materials
Unit 2 Reader
Student materials
Unit 4 Reader
Access the Amplify CKLA all-in-one digital platform
Teachers and students piloting CKLA 3rd Edition will receive login information to access the digital platform.
If you have not received your login information please contact your administrative team. If you are in charge of licensing and enrollment for your school/district and have not received login information please reach out to your account representative or help@amplify.com.
S3-05: Thinking is power
Join us as we sit down with Melanie Trecek-King, college professor and creator of Thinking is Power, to explore how much of an asset science can truly be in developing the skills students need to navigate the real world. You’ll learn about “fooling” students and the importance of developing critical thinking, information literacy, and science literacy in the classroom. We’ll also share real strategies and lesson examples that help build these essential skills and engage students in learning.
And don’t forget to grab your Science Connections study guide to track your learning and find additional resources!
We hope you enjoy this episode and explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page!
Melanie Trecek-King (00:00):
We say knowledge is power, but it’s not enough to know things. And there’s too much to know. So being able to think and not fall for someone’s bunk is my goal for my students.
Eric Cross (00:12):
Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. On this third season, we’ve been talking about science’s underdog status. And just this past March at the NSTA conference in Atlanta, I had the chance to speak with science educators from around the country about this very topic.
Hermia Simanu (00:28):
Right now, there’s only two teachers in our high school teaching science.
Shane Dongilli (00:32):
I have 45 minutes once a week with each class. The focus is reading and math.
Alexis Tharpe (00:38):
Oftentimes science gets put by the wayside. And you know, I love math and I love my language arts, but I also think science needs to place be placed on that high pedestal as well.
Askia Little (00:46):
In fifth grade, oh, they teach science, because that’s the only grade that it’s tested.
Eric Cross (00:50):
That was Hermia Simanu from American Samoa. Her team flew for three days to make it to the conference. You also heard from Shane Dongilli from North Carolina, Alexis Tharpe from Virginia, and Askia Little from Texas. All of these teachers were excited to be at the conference and had a lot to say about the state of science education in their local schools. Throughout this season, we’ve been trying to make the case for science, showing how science can be utilized more effectively in the classroom. We’ve explored the evidence showing that science supports literacy instruction. We’ve talked about science and the responsible use of technology like AI. My hope is that all of you listeners out there can use some of this evidence to feel empowered to make the case for science in your own communities. And on this episode, we’re going to examine how science can help develop what might be the most important skill that we try to develop in our students: Good thinking. On this episode, I’m joined by a biologist who actually advocated for eliminating the Intro to Bio course at her college. Instead, Professor Trecek-King created a new course focused on critical thinking, information literacy, and science literacy skills. In this conversation, we discuss why the science classroom is such a good environment for helping students become better thinkers. Now, I don’t think that you can make a much stronger argument for science than using it to develop the skills that Melanie describes in this conversation. So, without further ado, I’m thrilled to bring you this conversation with Melanie Trecek-King, Associate Professor of Biology at Massasoit Community College, and creator of Thinking Is Power. Here’s Melanie.
Eric Cross (02:29):
Well, Melanie, thank you for joining us on the show. It’s so good to have you.
Melanie Trecek-King (02:34):
I am so happy to be here.
Eric Cross (02:35):
Now, I went to your session at NSTA in Chicago … I think it was two years ago. A couple years ago. And I was listening to your session, and as I was listening to you, I started Reverse Engineering in my mind what you were doing with your college students. I started reverse engineering the K–8. I was like, “This is amazing.” Where has what you’ve been doing been hiding? We need this not just in the college, higher ed. We need this all the way up and down. Because I hadn’t seen it before. So I think a good place for us to start is gonna be like the story of how and why you as a biologist wound up making the case to actually eliminate the Intro to Biology course at your college. So can you start off and tell us a little bit about that story?
Melanie Trecek-King (03:20):
Sure. So I started teaching at a community college in Massachusetts. And I absolutely love teaching at a community college. And I was teaching the courses that people who don’t wanna be scientists when they grow up have to take to fulfill their science requirement. And that course was Intro Bio. And I tried every way I could figure out to make that class be useful,] relevant to students. I mean, the thing is, our world is based on science and you have to understand science to be a good consumer of information, to make good decisions. And I’m a biologist, so it pains me to say this, but you know, somewhere in the middle of teaching students about the stages of mitosis and protein synthesis, I thought, “Is this really — like, if I have one semester that’s gonna be the last chance that someone’s gonna get a science education, is this really what they need?” And I just decided, “No.” So, to my college’s credit, they were very supportive. I went to them and said, “You know, I think we should assess the non-majors courses. Like, why do we teach non-majors science?” And we all agreed, well, it was for science literacy. OK, great. Do our existing non-majors courses do that? And so we evaluated each of the courses. I made a case that Intro Bio was not doing it. And so we actually replaced it with a course that I call Science for Life. And the whole course is designed to teach science literacy, critical thinking, and information literacy skills.
Eric Cross (04:48):
And so you did this while you were looking at mitosis. And you’re looking at students who may or may not be science majors. And then kind of asking that question. I know every educator asks this, and whether or not it’s welcomed or supported is a different question: “Is what I’m teaching actually gonna be relevant and useful later on down the road for this group of students?” And you actually got to run with it and then create this course, this new course. So, what were the skills that you were hoping to achieve with the new course you developed, and and why were those skills so important?
Melanie Trecek-King (05:21):
Well, if I just go back for a second to what you said, ’cause it, really hit me: I remember the actual moment — it had been building up to that point, but the actual moment that it hit me — I was teaching students the stages of mitosis. And I was applying it to cancer, because the thought is that if we use issues that are relevant to students to teach concepts, that it will be more meaningful to them. They’ll learn it better; they’ll be able to apply it. And they just looked absolutely deflated. They didn’t wanna be there. And I had this moment where I thought, “You know, if, if these students ever have cancer somewhere in their lives, is what I taught them going to be something that they remember? Is it going to be useful to them?” And quite frankly, like, no. <Laugh> They’re not gonna remember proto-oncogenes. And quite frankly, is that really what they need to know at that moment? What they need to know is, “What does this mean? Who is a reliable source of information here? If these treatments are recommended, what is the evidence for them? What are the cost-benefit analyses? Where do I go to find reliable information?” And in that space, cancer in particular, we have this whole field of — I wanna say charlatans, ’cause they may not actually be lying, but they’re pedaling false cures, false hopes. And people need that kind of hope, and so in their time of need, they’re more likely to fall for that kind of thing. Which leads me to the skills that I teach students. I call them this tree of skills. And the order is important. I start — and there’s a lot of overlap to be fair — but critical thinking, and then information literacy, and science literacy. The idea is that students carry in their pockets access to basically all of human’s knowledge at this moment in time. And if they needed to access it, they could. The question is, do they know what they’re looking for? Are they aware of their own biases that are leading them to certain sources, or certain false hopes? Are there certain things that are making them more vulnerable to the people that might prey on them? Are they able to use that information to make good decisions? There’s a great Carl Sagan quote, and it’s something like, “If we teach people only the findings of science, no matter how useful or even inspiring they may be, without communicating the method, then how is anyone to be able to tell the difference between science and pseudoscience?” So yes, the process of science is a process of critical thinking. However, we do tend to present science most of the time. Like, here’s what science has learned. And to be fair, those things that we’ve learned from science are really useful and inspiring. But if we don’t teach the process, so you’ve got somebody now who let’s say has been diagnosed with cancer and is on their phone and they’re scrolling through social media and everything looks the same. And of course the algorithms learn who you are. Next thing you know, there’s all of these like pseudo-treatments popping up. It all looks the same. Somebody who says that acupuncture can be used to cure cancer can feel the same, from someone who doesn’t understand the process of science, as a medical fact. And so the process is the process of critical thinking. My class everything is open note. The quizzes are open note. The exams — and I say open note, they’re also open online, because I know for the rest of their life they’re gonna have resources available to them; I want them to be good consumers with that information, which to me requires metacognition and critical thinking and information literacy and all those skills that I’m trying to teach them.
Eric Cross (08:58):
You’re basically taking what … we’ve taught science for so long. And more recently, it’s changed to more focusing on skills. At least in K through 12. But a lot of it was just memorization of a ton of different things that now we can pull up our phone, go on the internet. You can pull up a lot of those facts. But those facts don’t necessarily translate to actual real-world skills. When I listen to… I kind of make this analogy sometimes: students say … it’s funny, I have 12-year-olds that say this. They go, “How come they don’t teach us how to do our taxes?” And you know they’re regurgitating what they hear from adults, right? “Teach us real-world skills!” And I was like, really, if we taught you right now how to do your taxes, how many of you would really be like, “Oh, this is an awesome lesson! We’re really engaged!” But their point is that “I wanna learn something that I could actually use later on, that’s that I’m gonna carry on.” And in your course, you’re talking about these skills that actually can apply. Like you said, if I had cancer and I’m looking at different types of medical procedures, do I have the skills to really be able to evaluate and make informed decisions on that? And that’s, that’s not something that I’ve seen explicitly taught really anywhere. And I hadn’t heard anybody talk about it, really, until I heard your session, where you’ve kind of unpacked this, and over the last couple of years, have created some programs or resources for educators, where they can take this into their classroom. So what were some of those skills, again? What were were some of the skills that you thought, “I wanna make sure that my students can walk out and they know how to do this and apply it to maybe several different fields”?
Melanie Trecek-King (10:35):
Oh, that’s a really good question. Because the whole thing was a process for me. Like, when I finally let go of Intro Bio, I was so glad to see that class go, by the way. ‘Cause I just felt like I was beating a dead horse. So when I let go of it, I thought, “What do they need instead?” And for me, what I realized was I was trying to make the class I would’ve wanted to take. I realized the things that I personally didn’t know, that my own education maybe let me down a bit. But things that I thought were important. So then I took all of those, synthesized them, tried to figure out the best order. The class is currently in its third iteration. And I hope every iteration is an improvement. But I’m thinking about the students that I taught before the pandemic. It was Intro Bio. Up to just maybe the couple years before the pandemic, and during the pandemic, we had a new virus and we had a new vaccine and we had new treatments. There was hydroxychloroquine and there was ivermectin and then there’s masks. Are masks effective? Well, you know, in what circumstances? What kind of mask? There are all of these questions. And that whole thing was we saw science playing out in real time.
Eric Cross (11:50):
Absolutely.
Melanie Trecek-King (11:51):
And so were my students able to follow that? And then what happened in that process is that science became politicized. And in a time where things are uncertain and we need answers, ’cause it’s scary, people want certainty and science doesn’t tend to provide that. Especially when it’s just starting out. And then when it becomes politicized, people decide that they’re going to — it’s not necessarily a conscious decision — but they retreat into what people in their camps are saying or their groups are saying. Which actually leads me to one of the more important parts of information literacy skills in there, which is most of our knowledge is shared. We tend to have overinflated senses of what we individually know. And studies actually show that with Google, if you have access to Google, you think you’re smarter than if you don’t have access to Google. But we all have access to knowledge in our communities, and that’s one of the reasons humans are so successful, is that we can each specialize in different things and share our expertise and become greater than the sum of our parts. The problem with that, of course, is that we forget what we don’t know, and we assume that we know what the community knows. And so recognizing the limits of your own knowledge and how different communities produce knowledge, like the different epistemic processes that communities use to come to knowledge. When it comes down to it, an important part of knowing is knowing who to trust, right? Knowing where the source of knowledge lives. And in order to do that, you have to understand the processes that they’re using to come to that knowledge and the limits of your own knowledge. And then how to find who has that knowledge so that you can use that to make better decisions.
Eric Cross (13:38):
So, when I hear what you’re doing with your college students, and I think about what I’m doing in the classroom, in the middle school, we are really focusing on literacy as skills. Reading, writing, speaking, listening. And then when I think of the next step of the journey, your information literacy and the literacy you’re teaching is really the application of those things in the real world. And the examples that you gave are very critical examples. Evaluating claims about Covid. Making informed decisions about a medical procedure that you might need. And we all get that applied to us. We’re scrolling through social media and somehow social media is listening. It’s figuring out exactly what I’m doing, because all of a sudden the ads are telling me … how did you know I was alking about KitchenAid mixers now? I just said KitchenAid mixers and it’s gonna show up in my feed! But <laugh> I take that in the same way from the same place that I take in maybe an oncologist. So it’s it’s coming through the same channels. So now I kind of wanna pivot. So we’ve talked about what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, the connection between “am I really teaching the skills that my students need in the science class? Is it really critical thinking explicitly or is it just kind of implied?” Now I wanna ask you how you do it. What’s the annotated, abbreviated kind of syllabus of your course?
Melanie Trecek-King (15:03):
So the course is called Science for Life. And the premise behind it is the kinds of skills and understanding of the process of science that they would need to make good decisions to be empowered in a world based on science. And so the very first lecture, I say, “OK, I’m gonna tell you a story and I just want you to listen to the story. And at the end I’m gonna ask you why I told the story.” And the story that I tell them is some of the history of the witchcraft trials in Europe. And I start with the Malleus Maleficarum, or the Hammer of Witches, from the Pope, and about how people would accuse witches of causing birth defects or storms or crops dying. And, the best evidence that they had to absolutely know somebody was a witch was if somebody accused them, and then if they were accused, if they confessed. OK? But the problem is, to get them to confess, they would torture them. Roasting over coals, or splitting until somebody broke. And so I tell my students, “OK, this was absolute proof that someone was guilty of witchcraft. I don’t know about you; I would confess to anything, right? Make it stop!” So this is where I get to ask students, “Why would I ask you this? Why would I tell you this story? And traumatize you on the very first day of lecture?” And they see the reasoning, right? They thought they had evidence. The question was, is that good evidence? And so, you know, I’m getting students to have a basic understanding of epistemology, right? Without calling it that, or without going into all of the philosophical background of epistemology. Apply this to your own reasoning. What are you wrong about? Well, you probably wouldn’t know. OK, how would you know if you were wrong? Like what kinds of things do you feel that you’re so right about? How good is your evidence for that? So what I want them to do is internalize the thinking about thinking, and analyzing how they come to conclusions, and proportioning how strongly they believe. Their confidence in how right they are. So I think starting with that kind of misinformation, and getting students to internalize that process is important. But I think the example is really useful, because most of my students don’t believe in witchcraft. Right? So it’s not an issue that would immediately threaten them in some way. So when, when a belief is tied to identity or how we see ourselves or is really important to us, then it’s very difficult to be objective about that belief. And so by starting with witchcraft, it’s not triggering. I get them to think about thinking and practice that muscle so that when we get to those more important issues, they have the skills they need to evaluate them.
Eric Cross (17:55):
So would it be fair to say that your Science for Life class is really applied scientific thinking for the real world?
Melanie Trecek-King (18:01):
Absolutely. That’s the idea. I mean, science is too good to keep to ourselves, right? And it’s everywhere. So how can you understand the world through a scientific lens?
Eric Cross (18:10):
What are the nuts and bolts of how you teach your students these strategies? What do you do? What are some strategies and techniques that we can maybe share with listeners? And then where I want to go after that is I wanna ask you, how early do you think this can be started? So lemme start off first with, what do you do?
Melanie Trecek-King (18:28):
So I use three different strategies. One is, I provide students with a toolkit. And the toolkit is one that I created and it is like my one toolkit to rule them all. It is trying to apply critical thinking and science reasoning all together in one place. So that if students are met with a claim, they’ve got the toolkit with an acronym. They can now start and have somewhere to go. In that if I gave you a claim and said, “Just critically think through this claim,” I mean, that’s a mighty task. But if you have a structured toolkit, then it’s hopefully a systemic way that’s helpful. The toolkit is summarized by FLOATER. I have published it on Skeptical Inquirer. It’s free. So it’s Falsifiability, Logical, Objectivity, Alternative Explanations, Tentative Conclusions, Evidence, and Reproducibility. So I provide students with a toolkit. The next thing I do is I use a lot of misinformation in class. Back to what Carl Sagan says: What I heard was we should use pseudoscience to teach students the difference between a pseudo-scientific process and a scientific process. So, I use science denial, conspiracy theories, and give my students a lot of opportunities to practice evaluating claims with the toolkit. And the other thing I do is, I use inoculation activities. So inoculation theory is based on William McGuire’s original research in the ’60s, which is basically like a vaccine analogy. Where you can inject a small amount of a virus or bacterium into the body, so that it creates an immune response, so that it can learn the real thing. And so in the real world, it can fight it off. Inoculation theory does the same thing, but with misinformation. So, what we can do is, in controlled environments, expose students to little bits of misinformation so that they can recognize it in the real world. There’s different kinds of inoculation, but I’m a big fan of what’s called active and technique-based inoculation. So technique-based means that students are learning not the facts of misinformation, not factually why this thing is wrong, but about the technique used to deceive. So maybe the use of fake experts. Or maybe the use of anecdotes. Or the use of logical fallacies. The other part of that is active, which is where students create the misinformation. So for example, my students, just now, we finished covering pseudoscience. And I teach students the characteristics of pseudoscience. And basically we have fun with it. Where they pretend to be grifters and they sell a pseudoscience product. And so they have to make an ad like they’d see on social media, using the different techniques. And the point there is that it’s supposed to be funny, right? And lighthearted. But in a real way, by using the techniques used to sell something like pseudoscience, it’s opening their eyes. You can’t unsee how every alternative product has, “it’s an all-natural and used for centuries and millions use it and look at this person who says, ‘Wow, it worked for me!’ And it’s certified by some society that doesn’t exist, but this doctor behind it says that it’s really great!” I mean, it’s all the same stuff. So they create the misinformation using their own techniques.
Eric Cross (22:02):
That’s one of my favorite things that you’ve talked about, and I want to dive in that a little bit more. But when you’re teaching the toolkit, FLOATER, what does that look like in the classroom, when you’re actually breaking all of those things down? What does it look like as you’re walking your students through this, and you’re kind of coaching them on all of those different things? ‘Cause I feel like some things might be like, “Oh yeah, I got that.” And then some of them might be, “Oh, what is that?”
Melanie Trecek-King (22:24):
Yeah, it takes me probably a good solid lecture to get through the basis of the toolkit. But then over the rest of the semester, I’ll spend more time going into different parts, different rules, a bit more in-depth. So, for example, logical fallacies and objectivity. So the rule of objectivity basically states that you need to be honest with yourself. I’m gonna quote Feynman here, so: “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.” We don’t tend to think that we can be fooled. But of course we can. So actually, if you wanna talk about it, I start class by fooling my students.
Eric Cross (23:03):
Wait, what do you do? What do you do for that?
Melanie Trecek-King (23:05):
Oh, so this is really fun. Day 1 of class, after the syllabus, I tell my … so you’re in my class now, Eric. “So I have a friend, and she’s a psychic. She’s an astrologer and she’s pretty good at what she does. I mean, she’s got books and she’s been on TV and stuff. She knows I teach this course about skepticism. And so she’s agreed to test how effective she is by providing personality assessments to students in class. So if you wanna participate, what I need from you is your birthday, your full name, answer a few questions. Like, if your house was on fire and you could take one thing, what would it be? Or if you could get paid for anything to do anything for a living, what would it be? Um, there’s a third one. Oh! If you could have any superpower, what would it be?” So the next class, it’s usually over a weekend. The next class I say, “OK, I’ve got your personality assessments back, but remember, we wanna test how effective she is. So in order to do that, I need you to read your profile as quietly as possible. And then I’m gonna have you rate her accuracy on a scale of 1 to 5. OK? So close your eyes; rate her.” Over the years doing this, it’s about a 4.3 to 4.5 out of 5. They think she’s pretty accurate. OK? “So now, if you feel comfortable, get with a person next to you. And I want you to talk about what parts of the personality assessment really spoke to you and, and why, and why you thought she was accurate or not.” And it takes them 5, 10 minutes before they realize they all got the same one. So, this is not my original experiment. It was first done by Bertram Forer in … I think it was the ’50s. And it’s done in psychology classrooms. James Randi made it famous. But the personality assessment itself is full of what are called Barnum statements. So, named after P.T. Barnum. These are statements that are very generic. So, “You have a need to be liked and admired by people. You are often quiet and reserved, but there are times where you can be the life of the party.”
Eric Cross (25:13):
How do you know this about me, by the way? This is a — I feel like you know me right now.
Melanie Trecek-King (25:17):
“There are times where you’ve wondered whether you’ve done the right thing.”
Eric Cross (25:19):
This is getting weird.
Melanie Trecek-King (25:21):
I’m just on fire, right? So these are Barnum statements. They’re the basis of personality assessment.
Eric Cross (25:29):
Mel, can I pause you right there? You said Barnum. Is that the same Barnum, like Barnum & Bailey Circus?
Melanie Trecek-King (25:34):
Yeah. P.T. Barnum, who didn’t actually say “There’s a sucker born every minute,” but we attribute him with that kind of ethos. These statements though, if you read a horoscope or even like personality indicators, like the MBTI, it is basically pseudo-scientific. And it ends up with lots of these Barnum statements. They produce what’s called the Barnum Effect, which is, “Wow, that’s so me! How did you know me?” I could even do more. Like, you have a box of photos in your house that need to be sorted. Or unused prescriptions. And these can apply to nearly everyone, but they produce this effect where we go, “Wow, that is so me!” Right? So by fooling them this way, I get to … well, so the next thing is, “Yes, I lied to you. And I’d like to tell you I won’t do that again. But I’m not going to, ’cause I might. So be on your guard.” But I did it for free. And why did I do it? “I did it because I could tell you ‘I could fool you,’ but you wouldn’t necessarily believe me. So I fooled you, so that you would learn what it feels like to be fooled.” It’s not fun. But we’re gonna make a joke outta this. And students are almost never upset about this ’cause it’s a fun process and they’re all fooled. And again, the point is, I didn’t disprove psychic powers. I didn’t just disprove psychics with this exercise. But I did show you how easy it was to fake. So if somebody is gonna tell you that they can know these things about you through some way, hopefully the evidence they provide should be stronger than something that’s easily faked. Right? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you claim to be able to read my personality based on my birthdate, then I need more than something that you can be taught to do in 15 minutes. So, I fool them to convince them that they could be fooled.
Eric Cross (27:27):
You’re giving them a practice scenario for thinking. And I was thinking about basketball. I grew up playing basketball. And my coach would have our own team be the defenders of the next team we were gonna play, so that we can be prepared for the defense. We were gonna see. Now, when I’m thinking about education, and what you just said reminded me of this, it’s like we’re often just teaching offense. We’re always teaching the plays. We’re always teaching what to do. But we rarely teach defense. What happens when someone comes towards you and, and they challenge you or they come at you with claims? How do we evaluate this? And I think in pockets we do it. We do claim-evidence-reasoning. We present claims and evidence and reasoning. But we don’t always have practice defending them. And I think there’s great resources. There’s Argumentation Toolkit and there’s all these awesome resources that do this. But does that fit? You’re kind of having them practice defense?
Melanie Trecek-King (28:26):
Yeah. You know, that’s brilliant. I never considered that analogy. But, yeah, in the real world, you don’t just get to always try to score all the time. Someone’s gonna challenge you and give you a claim that maybe you haven’t heard before. So how do you think through it?
Eric Cross (28:41):
Yeah. And you become better. So now I’m thinking about how early could we start doing this? For one, I love the idea of lying to your students, because I do that. And it’s just such a fun scenario. How early could we start implementing these strategies or these ideas or these toolkits? In your mind, what do you imagine? How early could we start this with young people?
Melanie Trecek-King (29:07):
Yeah. I’m so glad you asked that question, ’cause honestly, by the time they get to me, it’s almost too late. And I don’t wanna say it’s too late, ’cause it’s never too late. But, oh, we need to start so much earlier! That example that I gave about the selling pseudoscience argument? I have a wonderful colleague, Bertha Vasquez, who’s a middle school teacher in Miami and the director of TIES at CFI. She did this with her middle school students. And quite frankly, their examples were just as good, or in some cases better, than my college students. And they had so much fun with it, too. And she just said that, you know, <laugh>, they actually are more savvy with the kinds of things that they see online than we — I don’t wanna say give them credit for. But almost that we want to believe. My students give me examples of things that are from corners of the internet that I didn’t know existed. And quite frankly, that’s probably a good thing for my own mental health. But students are on there too, like middle school students, and we need to prepare them for the kinds of things that they see in the wild.
Eric Cross (30:13):
So in middle school, definitely. Now, you’ve also done some work in high school as well, right? In Oklahoma? Did you do some. …?
Melanie Trecek-King (30:17):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (30:18):
…some work with high schoolers? What was that like? Did you see any impact there?
Melanie Trecek-King (30:21):
So I didn’t actually do it in Oklahoma. I have taught the course … actually, you were talking about younger kids. I’ve taught the course to high schoolers in my area that are parts of dual enrollment. And they absolutely ate up the curriculum. And they were wonderful, wonderful students. And it was completely appropriate for … they were juniors, actually. But the course has also been taught in Oklahoma, through a dual enrollment program as well. And it was a small sample size. But we have pre-post testing that showed that it improved their critical thinking, their acceptance of science. But anecdotally the head of the program there said that in his years doing this, he’d never seen a course that helped them improve in their other courses so well. So, I felt very rewarded by hearing this. But apparently their critical thinking skills and information literacy skills helped them succeed in their other courses that they were taking. And I love that the students were transferring those skills to other classes. That’s the whole point.
Eric Cross (31:23):
And that’s a big … I think that what you just said is really the core, especially of what we’ve been talking about this season: What you’re talking about and what you’re teaching can transfer and supports literacy. And this is an example of science doing that across all other content areas. So I think that that’s huge, that that was said. What do people say about this course? I know I went on your website, and I looked at some of the comments that some folks were saying, and I know it’s just a snippet, but what do you hear from the education world about this? Because I don’t see it in many places. I see it kind of embedded, sprinkled into different content areas. But you’re actually teaching it explicitly. Do you tend to find positive feedback, overwhelmingly? Or do you get pushback on on some of this? What’s it been like for you?
Melanie Trecek-King (32:16):
I think the biggest pushback — and it’s good pushback, and I would agree entirely — is with inoculation activities, you do need to be careful to, when you debrief students, you wanna tell them why you did what you did and to use their powers for good and not for fooling other people. And I think importantly, for not putting misinformation out into the wild without having context around it. So if you do these kinds of inoculation activities, like if you have your students create pseudoscience ads, don’t just let them put them on social media. Obviously, you can’t control everything that they’re doing. But explain to them why you wouldn’t wanna do that. As far as everything else, I’ve heard really great feedback. You’re referencing my website. So, when I put together the course, I was trying to find resources for students to read. Textbooks are ridiculously expensive and I couldn’t find anything that I really wanted students to buy. So I just started writing, and I put it on my site. I have a site that’s basically the core of the curriculum. More in progress. And then I’ve got some of the topics that we explore and those are all assigned readings. My students are captive, in that I know they want a grade, and for four months they have to sit with me for the entire semester, in that I’ve specifically ordered the content in a way that would be most conducive to them learning these things. On the internet, though, and on social media, ’cause I post on there as well, people come in from all kinds of entry points, and so the goal would be to have them start at the beginning and go to the end. But people … I’m pleasantly surprised that there is an audience for critical thinking and science literacy content out there. And so that really warms my heart. But I am doing more and more for educators. And so I have a section for educators. I put content on there. I put assignments, the assignments that we’ve talked about and more, are on there. And the educators that I’ve had use it have just been really wonderful. Like, I hear great things. If I might, the biggest issue that I’m having is actually reaching educators. I’ve gone to — I met you at NSCA, actually, that was only last summer.
Eric Cross (34:30):
Oh, wow. Wow.
Melanie Trecek-King (34:32):
Right?
Eric Cross (34:32):
Yeah, you’re right. It wasn’t even a year.
Melanie Trecek-King (34:35):
Yeah, I think it was like July last year. So, um, you’ve been to the conferences. And I just went to the last one as well. But I have yet to figure out a way to really get in front of enough educators to share the content. So if anybody’s listening and is interested in learning more, please let me know! <Laugh>
Eric Cross (34:52):
Yes. And we talked about your website, but I didn’t say what the website was. So it’s ThinkingIsPower.com.
Melanie Trecek-King (34:57):
Yes.
Eric Cross (34:58):
And on there, there’s tons of resources. There is the toolkit. And it’s all free.
Melanie Trecek-King (35:06):
Yes.
Eric Cross (35:07):
And there’s a dope t-shirt on there that I just bought today, that Melanie’s actually wearing right now. It says, “Be curious, be skeptical, and be humble.” And I love that. Because I think one of the things that we can’t forget about teaching people how to think and critically evaluating information, sometimes those conversations can become very dehumanizing. And what I mean by that is it sometimes can become, like, intellectual sport, where we forget that there’s a human being on the other other side. And we lose that empathy and compassion. We can kind of see that. It just becomes this intellectual jousting and arguing. And one of the things I know about you, and when you talk about this or you talk about the work that you do, and even the shirt that you’re wearing, there’s this, “be humble.” There’s this human that is never lost in this. And you said it, too: When you’re teaching your students and you’re equipping them with all of these intellectual skills and all of these tools, to use it for good. So to maintain your humanity, to maintain your character, and then to use it to edify and lift people up, not to go out and do harm. That balance, I think, is so, so important. So it’s something that I really appreciate about you and how you teach.
Melanie Trecek-King (36:19):
I appreciate those kind words. Actually—
Eric Cross (36:21):
Oh, of course!
Melanie Trecek-King (36:22):
—and if I might, I sometimes see people using critical thinking like a weapon. It’s like, “I have learned fallacies and I’m just gonna use the tools of critical thinking to tell you why you’re stupid, or why you’re wrong, and why my position is right!” But real critical thinking involves applying those same standards to your own thought processes. And even something like argumentation: the goal of our argumentation is not to BE right; it’s to GET it right. And so we’re on the same team. If we’re arguing about something, if the idea is in scientific argumentation we’re trying to find the truth, which one of us is making a better argument based on the evidence? Can your perspective help me see my own blind spots and vice versa? And the more different perspectives that we have, the more able we are to find whatever reality is. But we are in this together. And so, yeah, I think … I’m glad to hear that that’s coming through. But if you don’t have the kind of humility that says, “You know, I could be wrong,” then you’re never gonna change your mind anyway. So having the humility to say, I’m wrong. <Laugh>
Eric Cross (37:33):
Yeah. You end up just seeing people just defend turf, as opposed to support “look for truth.” And I know for me, my own education journey, I end up with more questions than answers anyways. So I go in trying to find an answer for something and I end up with 10 more questions. And I go, “OK, this is kind of how it is.” You go down this rabbit hole and you just end up with all these different questions. And it forces the humility, because you’re like, “I don’t know! I think this is what it could be, but it could also be these other answers or explanations. So this is just where I’m at, based on what we know right now, at this present time, which might shift.”
Melanie Trecek-King (38:07):
And that sounds reasonable. Yes. Which might shift. Yes.
Eric Cross (38:11):
And especially for us as life-science biology teachers, our content is something that definitely shifts. I know some of the things I teach now are not things that I learned when I was even in middle school. Just because things evolve. They change. We learn, we get new data. That’s just the way it is.
Melanie Trecek-King (38:24):
<Sighs> And Pluto is no longer a planet.
Eric Cross (38:26):
I know. Rest in — well, no, Pluto’s still there. Yeah. It’s no longer a planet. But that was one part of my kindergarten memorizations <laugh> is Pluto being in there.
Melanie Trecek-King (38:36):
Gotta change your mind.
Eric Cross (38:38):
I know. Any words of advice for science educators out there who want to focus more on honing these critical thinking skills and strategies with their own students, but they don’t know where to start? Where would you point them? Or what advice would you give them?
Melanie Trecek-King (38:52):
I think start with what you want the students to know. And not necessarily the FACTS that you want students to know, but start with the skills that you want them to know. And then really be honest with your process. When I designed Science for Life, I started with, “these are the skills that I want students to know.” And everything was in service of that. So this sort of backwards design, I think, helped me follow a path that was more likely to be useful, if that makes any sense. But it really required doing it all over again. So don’t be afraid to question the things that you’re currently doing, even if that’s all you’ve been taught or all you know.
Eric Cross (39:41):
What I’m hearing is, don’t be afraid to question your own assumptions about what you’re doing. And don’t be afraid to adapt or change or modify. Kinda, pivot. Be flexible.
Melanie Trecek-King (39:51):
Yes, be flexible and pivot. And this is where I’m in a different position than middle school and high school educators. Because I have complete freedom over what I teach in my class.
Eric Cross (40:01):
Sure.
Melanie Trecek-King (40:01):
At the end of the semester, I always joke with non-majors that there’s nothing they have to know, which actually gives me a lot of flexibility, because I could teach ’em a lot of different things. So if there are things that you have to teach students, obviously that’s one thing. But I personally think that the way that we’ve been teaching science needs a refresher. A rethinking. And so I would say, “If you want your students to learn science literacy, honestly ask, what does that mean to you? And what would that look like to get to that point?” For me, though, it was also keeping in mind that maybe I didn’t already know the best way to do that.
Eric Cross (40:43):
One of the things you mentioned earlier is trying to reach out to educators. And I know that when we work together, it’s a force multiplier. And what you’re doing is developing skills. And there’s these skills that are happening right now in academia that you’re doing. And then how do we transfer that into middle and high school. Or, I’m sorry, middle and elementary school, high school. We need to get more people into this conversation to kind of brainstorm and figure that out. We have a Facebook group, Science Connections: The Community, where we have educators that gather. That can be one place we start the conversation. And again, I know on your website you’ve been super active on social media; you’ve grown your presence on Twitter and all these different places, engaging with folks. Which is awesome. ‘Cause I know I see your posts and I’m saving the things that you’re posting and I’m thinking of ways that I can do it in my classroom. I’m gonna take that product. By the way, is that on your website, the lesson that you do with the product?
Melanie Trecek-King (41:43):
No, actually. So the article, “How to Sell Pseudoscience” is … I know Bertha Vasquez wrote up a version of it.
Eric Cross (41:50):
Maybe we can grab that. ‘Cause we might be able to put that into the show notes for folks, because she’s a middle school educator. If there’s already something that’s been done for teachers like us, we’re like, “Yeah, let me get that and let me remix it and make it my own!” if there’s already a exemplar out there.
Melanie Trecek-King (42:04):
Yeah, she’s done it. And so I will absolutely share that with you.
Eric Cross (42:08):
So, all season long, we’ve been talking about science as the underdog. We kind of framed it, you know, science oftentimes takes a back seat to math and English. It’s kinda the first thing to go. Or the first area where time can get cut. Because of what gets tested gets focused on, oftentimes. And then in addition to that, when you’re a multi-subject teacher, elementary science isn’t just one thing — it’s every field. You know, you’re a biologist, which is different than a geologist. And when you’re teaching every subject, that’s a lot. And you might not have had a science class for years. And the realities that we’re seeing over and over with different researchers and practitioners is that science could actually enhance literacy, and building those skills. And I think you really talked about it with the critical thinking skills. Those can transfer. Or the administrator that said, “This is one of the only courses I’ve seen where it transfers to other areas.” Could you share maybe with our listeners, just any advice for advocating for science in their own world?
Melanie Trecek-King (43:13):
Wow, I’m not sure I’m qualified to answer that question! One of the things that comes to mind though — because I was listening to your last episode and educators … I honestly didn’t realize how little time they had for science. And how often science was then the first to go, to allow room for other subjects. But science overlaps with a lot of other issues. And so I feel like there could be a way to bring in science when teaching these other subjects. So, for example, argumentation and logical fallacies are easy to apply to reading and writing. Information literacy, and being able to find good information online, teaching students how to laterally read, to be able to check a source, or how to use Google effectively, to put in neutral search terms to find sources, or teaching students how to recognize the characteristics of conspiratorial thinking: All of these things can overlap with so many other subjects. So the scientist in me is a little biased towards science being important enough to do this. But try to bring it into the other subjects. It doesn’t have to be completely separate.
Eric Cross (44:43):
So integrating science into other things. And I … big believer. And a hundred percent agree with you. Now I’m gonna ask a question that kinda like takes us backwards. You shared an app with me when we first met that I thought was really cool. And I know it’s a friend or colleague of yours. But as a middle school teacher, I thought it was great, because it was something that my students could download and practice some of the skills that you’re talking about. Would you talk a little bit about the cranky uncle? Is it the Cranky Uncle app?
Melanie Trecek-King (45:17):
Cranky Uncle.
Eric Cross (45:18):
Could you share a little bit about that?
Melanie Trecek-King (45:20):
Yeah. Cranky Uncle is awesome. So, Cranky Uncle is the brainchild of John Cook, who is the founder of Skeptical Science and the author of the 97% Consensus study on climate change. Cranky Uncle … so he’s also a cartoonist. And Cranky Uncle is a cartoon game where … I don’t even have to explain who Cranky Uncle is to my students. Everybody inherently gets the, the character, right? So he’s like the guy at Thanksgiving that you don’t wanna talk to because he denies climate change and he’s just really cranky. But Cranky Uncle uses the techniques of science denial, which are summarized by the acronym FLICC: So it’s Fake experts, Logical fallacies, Impossible expectations, Cherry-picking, and Conspiratorial thinking. So he uses those techniques. Again, this is technique-based inoculation. So they recognize the techniques in the game, and you earn cranky points. And as you make Cranky crankier and crankier because you’re recognizing his techniques, you learn the techniques of science denial, and level up and open up other techniques. This is another one of those examples where climate change has a lot of science behind it, right? And if you wanted to get to the science behind climate change for any particular issue … so let’s say it’s cold today, so I’m gonna say there’s no climate change. OK? If I’m gonna unpack that at a factual level, and with science, we could be here for a while. But if I told you, “That’s like saying, ‘I just ate a sandwich so there’s no global hunger.’” OK? So that’s a parallel argument. Humorous. Love to use this kind of argumentation, ’cause it makes for some … I mean, it’s funny, but you get the point. It’s an anecdote. And anecdotes aren’t good evidence. So just like that, you could teach the technique of using an anecdotal fallacy for climate-change denial. So, I have my students play this game. You could do it when you’re studying argumentation. You could do it for science denial. I use an inoculation extension with that, where I have my students pretend that … um, actually, back up for a second. So I teach a class on critical thinking. And at the end of semesters I would get emails from students on, well, they’re failing the class, but they really shouldn’t, for all of these reasons. And reading these emails, I’m like, “If you think that’s a good argument, you clearly didn’t learn what I was hoping you would learn.” So I now have my students, early in the semester, after they play Cranky, pretend that it is the end of the semester and you’re failing the class and you’re failing because you didn’t do the work. Use at least four of the fallacies from class to argue for why you should pass. So they have to put it on a discussion forum, and they’ll say things like, “Well, if you fail me, then I won’t get into graduate school and then people will die and it will all be your fault.” Or, “My dog died, and so I was really sad.” Or, um, “You’re just a terrible teacher. And you’re short. So I don’t like you.” Or that kind of thing. So, oh, they love to attack my character. It’s really funny. But it’s supposed to be funny. And the point is, the students are using those arguments, they’re using the fallacies, to argue for something. And so by creating that misinformation themselves, they learn how those fallacies work. But taken together, I mean, everything that we just talked about there, Cranky Uncle, and the fallacy assignment, or whatever iteration you want that to be in, that doesn’t have to be in a purely science unit. Right? That could be sociology. It could be argumentation. It could be English.
Eric Cross (49:01):
Absolutely. That could be totally a prompt in an English class. And practiced in there. And then this could be an interdisciplinary thing, going back and forth between English and and science. Just having these discussions and looking at it from different angles. And you’re practicing the skills in two different contexts. So you get into argumentation. And then that app, I know I had fun with it. And the questions on there definitely resonate with people in my own family. I’m like, “I feel like I’m talking to exactly somebody that I’m related to right now.” <Laugh> Melanie, anything else that you wanna share, or discuss or highlight, before we wrap up?
Melanie Trecek-King (49:39):
So we could talk about lateral reading, if you like. ‘Cause I know a lot of educators use the crap test.
Eric Cross (49:45):
Please, please, please talk about that.
Melanie Trecek-King (49:47):
So, when evaluating sources, a lot of educators teach what’s called the CRAP test. And I wish I remembered what it stood for. But basically what you do, a lot of us have been taught when you go to a website, to figure out if it’s reliable, you wanna go to the about page. Read the mission; see who they are; maybe read some of the content; evaluate the language. So is it inflammatory? Are they making logical arguments? Are the links to reputable sources as well? And the problem is that if a site wants to mislead you, they’re not going to tell you that it’s a bunk site, right? They’re just gonna do a good job of misleading you. And so, what you wanna do instead … the CRAP test basically is an evaluation of a site. And that’s what’s called vertical reading. So you’re looking through a site to determine if it’s reliable. Uh, I think his name’s Sam Wineberg at Stanford, proposed something called lateral reading. Where, instead of on the site, what you wanna do is literally open a new tab and into the search engine type the source. You could do the claim, too. And then something like Reliability or FactCheck or whatever it’s that you’re checking, and then see what other reputable sites have to say about it. So, in their study, actually, they did a really interesting study where they compared professional fact checkers to PhD historians to Stanford undergrads. And they evaluated — I wish you could … um, there’s two pediatrician organizations. One’s like the American Association of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Pediatricians, something like that. They’re very similar sounding. So you give them to students. I do this with my students as well, the same study. So I give my students those two websites. And I say, “Which one of these is more reliable?” And they do exactly what most of us do, which is spend time on the site looking around. And most of the time, if not nearly all the time, they come to the wrong conclusion. And so then I tell them what lateral reading is: “OK, instead of looking through the site, open a new tab, search the organization and reliability.” Something like that. And it takes probably 30 seconds before they realize one of them has been dubbed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group. As opposed to the other one, which is like a hundred year old huge pediatrician organization that produces their own journals and so on. But nearly all my students are fooled. And in the study, none of the fact checkers were fooled. I’m gonna get the number right. It’s something like 50% of the historians and 20% of the Stanford undergraduates got the correct answer. And they spent a lot more time on it. So it’s a great way to teach students how to use the power of the internet to evaluate sources much more quickly and, effectively. And yes, use Wikipedia, right? Wikipedia is not a final answer, but Wikipedia is actually pretty accurate. So if Wikipedia is the first place you stop, then yes, go there, see what Wikipedia says, and then follow some of their sources.
Eric Cross (52:47):
What popped in my head was like, Yelp reviews for websites. That almost sounds like what it was. It’s like when I search for a product, I don’t go and read the product description marketing. ‘Cause that’s all designed to sell me on something. But I’ll go and look in Reliability, if it’s like a car, or just other sites to cross-reference. And that sounds like what you were talking about is like cross-referencing. Seeing what FactChecker [sic] said about this site, versus seeing what a site says about itself.
Melanie Trecek-King (53:14):
Well, that’s a great analogy. Because if I wanted to know if a product was effective, what the manufacturer says about the product, clearly there’s a strong chance of bias. Right? They’re going to be on their best, um, put their best foot forward. Versus, what do independent reviewers say about this product?
Eric Cross (53:35):
Yep. And I am known to research something to death. And I get something called “paralysis by analysis.”
Melanie Trecek-King (53:42):
Ohhhh, yeah.
Eric Cross (53:44):
And it’s so bad that even if I’m trying to buy, like, towels, I need to find the best-bang-for-the-buck towel. I have to defer some of these decisions out, because I’m on the internet for three hours now. I’ll be a pseudo-expert in towels, and thread count, and all of that stuff. But yeah, that maybe that’s just the science person.
Melanie Trecek-King (54:03):
I mean, I feel your pain. I do the same thing. <Laugh> It’s annoying. Like, it’s just towels. What does it really matter? But yeah.
Eric Cross (54:10):
Coffee! It doesn’t matter what it is. I just need to go, “OK, I have to use these powers for good. Otherwise I’m gonna be researching forever.”
Melanie Trecek-King (54:16):
I wanna say one other thing. So, again, this is a college class and I have a lot of freedom. But one of the driving philosophies behind the class is a wonderful quote in a book, Schick and Vaughn, How to Think about Weird Things. And they said, “The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your decisions, and the quality of your decisions is determined by the quality of your thinking.” And I know my students want a grade. But I’m really trying to teach them how to be empowered through better thinking. That’s where the name “Thinking is Power” came from. I mean, we say “Knowledge is Power,” but it’s not enough to know things. And there’s too much to know. So being able to think and be empowered to have your own agency and not fall for someone’s bunk is my goal for my students.
Eric Cross (55:07):
And doing that is gonna help them through the rest of their lives. Not be swindled, not be taken advantage of, be able to make better decisions. There’s so many benefits to building that skill. And I know your students have definitely grown and benefited. I’m sure you’ve heard, long after you’ve taught them, heard back from them and how they’ve applied that course to their lives. Melanie, thank you so much for being here. For a few things. One, for providing and filling this space where there’s such a need. Again, the critical thinking resources, the tools that you used, are so, so important. If we ever lived in a time where they were critical, it was really what we experienced during the pandemic in the last few years. We watched people’s information literacy and science literacy play out in real time. And we literally saw life-and-death decisions being made based off those skills. That highlighted, I think how important this is. And then, taking the time to generate resources for educators like myself, that we can take and adapt and put into our classroom and start teaching our students. ‘Cause like you said, by the time they get to you, they’re, they’re so far downstream or so far in a system that, depending on the teachers that they’ve had and the education system they’ve been in, may or may not have even touched on these things. They might have learned a lot of facts, but they may not have built their muscle to be able to critically analyze and interpret the world around them. And you’ve just — even the last year, it hasn’t even been a year since we talked the first time — I’ve watched your resources continue to grow, and you share them. And so I, on behalf of those of us in K–12, thank you. And thank you for being here.
Melanie Trecek-King (56:49):
Oh, well, thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you for everything that you do, reaching out to other educators and for giving me a platform to hopefully reach other educators.
Eric Cross (57:00):
Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Melanie Trecek-King, Associate Professor of Biology at Massasoit Community College and creator of Thinking Is Power. Make sure you don’t miss any new episodes of Science Connections by subscribing to the show, wherever you get podcasts. And while you’re there, we’d really appreciate it if you can leave us a review. It’ll help more listeners to find the show. You can find more information on all of Amplify shows at our podcast hub, Amplify.com/Hub. Thanks again for listening.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Wednesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month!
Meet the guest
Melanie Trecek-King is the creator of Thinking is Power, an online resource that provides critical thinking education to the general public. She is currently an associate professor of biology at Massasoit Community College, where she teaches a general-education science course designed to equip students with empowering critical thinking, information literacy, and science literacy skills. An active speaker and consultant, Trecek-King loves to share her “teach skills, not facts” approach with other science educators, and help schools and organizations meet their goals through better thinking. Trecek-King is also the education director for the Mental Immunity Project and CIRCE (Cognitive Immunology Research Collaborative), which aim to advance and apply the science of mental immunity to inoculate minds against misinformation.
About Science Connections
Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher.
You might also like:
S3-04: Using AI and ChatGPT in the science classroom
In the latest episode of the Science Connections podcast, we explore AI in education and its impact on students. Listen as I sit down with teachers Donnie Piercey and Jennifer Roberts to discuss ChatGPT and how we can use it to build science and literacy skills in K–12 classrooms while preparing students for the real world.
And don’t forget to grab your Science Connections study guide to track your learning and find additional resources!
We hope you enjoy this episode and explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page!
Jennifer Roberts (00:00:00):
If a kid graduates from school without knowing that AI exists, they’re not gonna be prepared for what they face out in the world.
Eric Cross (00:00:07):
Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross.
Eric Cross (00:00:12):
This season of the podcast, we’re making the case for everyone’s favorite underdog, science. Recently we’ve been highlighting the magic that can come from integrating science and literacy. So if you haven’t checked out those recent episodes, definitely go back in your feed after you’re done with this one. This time around, we’re going to deep dive into what artificial intelligence means for literacy instruction, and how science can be a force for good, in responsibly exposing students to AI. To help me out, I’m joined by two extremely accomplished educators. Jen Roberts, a veteran high-school English teacher from San Diego, who among many things runs the website LitAndTech.com. And I’m also joined by fifth-grade teacher Donnie Piercey. In addition to being Kentucky’s 2021 Teacher of the Year, Donnie also has an upcoming book about bringing AI into the classroom. Whether you’ve never heard of ChatGPT or whether you’re already using it every day, I think you’ll find this a valuable discussion about the intersection of science, English, and technology. Here’s Jen and Donnie.
Eric Cross (00:01:17):
So first off, welcome to the show. It’s good to see you all. What I wanna do is kind of start off by introducing both of you. And so we’ll just go K–12. So <laugh>, Donnie.
Jennifer Roberts (00:01:30):
Donnie goes first.
Eric Cross (00:01:31):
Donnie’s gonna go first. Donnie out in Kentucky. Just a little background. What do you teach; how long you’ve been in the classroom; and what are you having fun with right now?
Donnie Piercey (00:01:38):
Yeah, so my name is Donnie Piercey. I’m a fifth-grade teacher from Kentucky. Live and teach right here in Lexington, Kentucky, right in the center of the state. I’m the 2021 Kentucky Teacher of the Year. But I’ve been teaching elementary school for the past … I think this is year 16 or 17. It’s long enough where I’ve lost count, and I can’t even count on fingers anymore. My friends like to joke that I’ve taught long enough where now I can count down. You know, it’s like, “All right, only so many more years left.” But yeah, teach all subjects. Science definitely is one of the subjects that I don’t just try to squeeze into my day, but make sure that … it’s not even a devoted subject, but one that I definitely try to — don’t just have that set time, but also try to do some cross-curricular stuff with it. So definitely the rise of AI in these past few months, which feels like years by this point, has definitely played quite the role, in not just changing the way that I’ve been teaching science, but really all my subjects. So, excited to chat with y’all about it.
Eric Cross (00:02:47):
Nice. I’m excited that you’re here. And Jen?
Jennifer Roberts (00:02:51):
Hi, I’m Jen Roberts. I teach ninth-grade English at Point Loma High School, and that’s where I usually stop when I introduce myself. But for your sake—
Eric Cross (00:03:00):
I will keep introducing you if you stop there. <laugh>
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:04):
I am nationally board-certified in English Language Arts for early adolescence. I am the co-author of a book called Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning, from Stenhouse, with my fabulous co-author Diana Neebe. Shout out to Diana. I blog at LitAndTech.com about teaching and technology and literacy and the intersection of those things. And I’m looking forward to talking about how AI is showing up in my classroom and the fun things I’m doing with it.
Donnie Piercey (00:03:31):
And one of us is actually secretly a robot, and you have to guess which one.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:35):
Have to guess which one. Yes. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:03:37):
That would be super-meta. And you were the CUE — Computer-Using Educator — outstanding teacher or educator? Whatever. Either one. Of the year.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:45):
I was the CUE ’22 Outstanding Educator. Yes. And I’ve won a few other things as well.
Eric Cross (00:03:53):
The gaming backpack.
Jennifer Roberts (00:03:54):
I’ve won a gaming backpack recently! Yes. I once won an iPad in a Twitter chat.
Eric Cross (00:03:58):
What?
Donnie Piercey (00:03:58):
What’s a gaming backpack? Hold on. We need to talk about that.
Jennifer Roberts (00:04:01):
We will talk about that. <laugh> And then, I was once a finalist for county Teacher of the Year. That’s as close as I got to Donnie. Donnie was the Kentucky Teacher of the Year. He got to go to the White House and stuff. That was exciting.
Donnie Piercey (00:04:13):
<laugh> I mean, to be fair, there’s only three million people in Kentucky, and about what, 50 million people that live in California? <Laugh> So odds are definitely stacked in my favor, I think.
Jennifer Roberts (00:04:23):
So you’re saying we’re even there? Is that, is that what you’re going for?
Donnie Piercey (00:04:25):
Yeah, evens out. Evens out.
Eric Cross (00:04:27):
So I’ve been looking forward to talking to you both for a while now, and talking about artificial intelligence. It’s like the big thing. And both of you, at different ends of the spectrum and in my life, have contributed to this. Donnie, you’ve been sharing so much great information online about how you’re using AI in elementary. Jen, you are the reason I got into education technology years ago, right when I was becoming a teacher. And so being able to talk with you both about it excites me a lot. So first off, for the listeners who may not have any experience with it — and there’s still a lot of people out there who have not been exposed to it, haven’t got their feet wet with it yet — I’m hoping we could start off maybe with an explanation of … we could do AI, ChatGPT, I know that’s the big one. But simply explaining what it is, just for the new person. And whoever wants to start off can tell us about it. Or maybe we’ll start … we’ll, let’s actually, let’s do this: Let’s continue going like K–12? So Donnie, maybe you could … what’s your pitch to the new person of, “Hey, this is what it is”?
Donnie Piercey (00:05:31):
All right. So, AI, artificial intelligence, probably the way that most people are exposed to it, at least since November when it launched, is through ChatGPT. Where if you Google it, you know it’s made by a company called OpenAI. The best way to describe what it is … when you go there for the first time, make an account, it’s free. You have like a little search window, looks like a Google search bar. And instead of searching for information, you can ask it to create stuff for you. So for example, like on Google search, you might type in a question like, “Who was the 19th president of the United States?” Where on ChatGPT, instead of just searching for information, it creates stuff for you. So you could say, you could ask it to, “Hey, write a poem about the 19th president of the United States.” Or, “Write a short little essay comparing, I don’t know, Frederick Douglass to Martin Luther King Jr.” And it would do that for you. You know, that’s most people’s first exposure to AI, at least in these past few months. Instead of … you know, it’s artificial intelligence, but it’s not just chatbots. There’s lots of other AI that exist out there.
Jennifer Roberts (00:06:47):
And I think that’s the thing: that people don’t realize how much AI is already in their lives.
Donnie Piercey (00:06:51):
For sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Roberts (00:06:52):
You know, they just haven’t seen … the term that I see being used a lot now is “generative AI.” AI that can produce something. It can produce writing, it can produce art, it can produce a script, it can produce a character. But the AI that has been helping you pick what to watch next on Netflix and the AI that’s helping Google help you get where you wanna go on Google Maps faster, those are forms of artificial intelligence as well.
Donnie Piercey (00:07:21):
Yeah. I mean, even those, when you get that that message in Gmail, and instead of having to type out that response that says, “Yeah, that sounds great,” you can just click the little button that says, “Yeah, that sounds great.” I mean, that’s been in Gmail for years, but that’s artificial intelligence too.
Eric Cross (00:07:39):
Absolutely. So why is it important, do you think, for educators to, to be familiar with it? Like, why are we all so excited about it?
Jennifer Roberts (00:07:47):
So, educators need to know what kids are into, and kids are obviously into ChatGPT. And anyone who’s an educator right now has probably already had something cross their desk — or more likely their computer screen — that was written by AI and passed off as a student’s own work. And that is, of course, the great fear among teachers everywhere, that this is what kids are just gonna do these days and they won’t be able to catch it and children won’t be doing their own work and this and this. But I think the big reason teachers need to know what’s going on is because teachers need to be futurists. Our clientele will live in the future. We teach kids, kids will become adults, adults will live in the world. And so if we’re not thinking about and trying to predict on some level what’s gonna happen 5, 10, 15 years from now … we might be wrong, but what if we’re right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:08:38):
And if we’re not at least trying to think about what is their future world gonna look like, then we’re not serving our students well. I did a whole night talk on that. So I think ChatGPT is part of that. I teach seniors. I had this moment of realization I felt a few months ago. I’m like, “This is gonna be the world they graduate into. They need to know what this is before they leave me.” If I don’t teach them how to use this well, and not the way they’re using it — which is to copy and paste the teacher’s assignment and drop it into ChatGPT and take whatever it spits out and turning that in without even looking at it — if I don’t teach ’em how to use it critically, if I don’t teach them how to write effective prompts, if I don’t teach them how to use the AI as a tool, as a collaborator, then they’re gonna graduate into a world where they lose out to people who do know how to do that. And I think the advantage goes to kids who have access and knowledge of what’s in front of them and what’s available, and can use all of the tools at their disposal. Because when you’re writing in school and you write with a collaborator, that could be considered cheating. But when you do that out in the adult world, that’s considered doing a good job. <Laugh> Being a team player. <Laugh> You know, adults don’t work alone for the most part. And adults are expected to churn out beautiful, perfect content no matter how they got there. So if I’m not teaching my kids how to use this, they’re not being ready. They’re not gonna be ready to be the adults that I want them to be.
Donnie Piercey (00:10:07):
A hundred percent agree. And I also believe … as you know, I teach elementary school. I also don’t think anybody is saying that on the first day of kindergarten, you hand a kid a Chromebook and load up an AI chatbot or ChatGPT and say, Hey, this thing’s gonna do all your work for you for the next 12 years; just coast through life. You don’t have to think creatively. You don’t have to learn how to develop a paragraph or learn how to write a speech or develop an idea. Like, I don’t think anybody’s saying that, because as an elementary school teacher, there’s many days when I’m like, “Y’all, we’re just putting the Chromebooks away today and we’re just gonna go old-school. We’re just gonna maybe just jot down five quick ideas and stand up and present those ideas to the class.”
Donnie Piercey (00:10:54):
Because while AI definitely will, like you were saying, Jen, play a significant role in the lives of our students who are, not just graduating, but the 10- and 11-year-olds in my classroom this year. A significant role in their lives. It’s also really important to recognize that we’re not saying that this means that “Hey, kids don’t have to work anymore.” They still have to put forth that effort. There’s still — one of the ways that you become a good writer is by trial and error. And sometimes that trial and error comes through talking to a teacher or talking like you were saying to a peer or collaborating with a peer and saying to them, “Well, this sentence here, this paragraph here, really doesn’t make sense.” And I do believe one of the ways — especially as AI starts to become more fine-tuned and starts to be embedded more and more in tools like Google Docs and Microsoft Word — is it’s almost going to be a tutor to students.
Donnie Piercey (00:11:56):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Where I could very easily see in a few years, or maybe a few months, who knows what Google or any of these other big companies has rolling out, where a student could highlight a paragraph that they wrote simply, and then say, “Hey, proofread this for me,” or “Check for coherence.” Or even just ask a simple question: “Does this paragraph make sense?” Because you can already do that. You can copy a paragraph over into a chatbot and say, “Hey, does this make sense?” You know, “Rate my idea from one to 10,” and it’ll do that for ’em.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:26):
We did that last week <laugh>.
Donnie Piercey (00:12:28):
Yeah. Right. I mean, that’s the thing. That technology exists now. It’s just not totally embedded yet. But based on what I’ve read and what I’ve seen, that’s gonna happen sooner rather than later. And it’s really, really important that we teach our students that, “No, you’re not just gonna use this, this tool to cheat, but you can use this tool to help you become a more creative student.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:50):
This is the use case in my classroom. Can I talk about that? You ready for that?
Eric Cross (00:12:53):
Please.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:54):
OK.
Eric Cross (00:12:54):
Please.
Jennifer Roberts (00:12:55):
So my ninth graders are writing a comparative analysis essay, where I took them to the student art gallery and I made them pick two pieces of completely unknown student art and take notes on it, so they could go back and write this essay. And as soon as we got back to class, I said, can ChatGPT write this for you? And they all kind of froze ’cause I didn’t tell them what ChatGPT was. And they weren’t sure if they were allowed to know or not. And finally one of them kind of bravely raised his hand and said, “No.” And I said, “Why not?” And he said, “Well, the AI hasn’t seen the art. How can it write an essay about art when the art is completely original that we just went and looked at?” I said, “It’s almost like I planned it that way, isn’t it?” And they laughed nervously. And then I said, “Does that mean it can’t help us with this assignment?” And they said, “Well, no — of course it can’t help us, because it has not seen the art.” And I said, “Well. …” And I open ChatGPT, and I typed in what they were trying to do: “I need to write a comparative analysis essay comparing two pieces of student art on these reasons. And I need to choose which one did it better, basically. Can you help me with an outline?” and ChatGPT produced a lovely outline. And I looked at that with my students and we looked at it together and I said, “This is what it gave us. Would this be helpful to you?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that would be helpful to us.” So we — to be clear here, I was the only one using ChatGPT in the room. They were not actually using it. We were using it together. I copied and pasted the outline that it gave us and put it in their learning management system where they could access it so they could use the outline that the robot provided, and then they could use that to make their own writing better. So then I let them write for a little while, and, after they’d written for a little while, I said, “Does anybody wanna let me share your first paragraph with ChatGPT and see what it thinks of how you’re doing?” And a brave student raised his hand and we took his paragraph and we put it in ChatGPT, and it spit back advice. We said, “This is what I have so far for my first paragraph. Do you have any advice for me?” And we gave it the writing, and the first piece of advice it gave back was very generic, you know, “Add a hook,” you know, like kind of thing. But after that, it started to get more specific about things he was actually doing in his writing. And it started to give him some feedback. And we looked at that together as a class. And I said, “Does any of that feedback help you?” And he said, “Oh yeah, absolutely. I’m gonna go add some revisions to my paragraph.” And other students did too. They looked at the feedback he got and used that to improve their writing. And so everybody went and revised. And I said, “Look, if you take what the robot gives you and you copy and paste it, and you turn it in as your own work, it’s gonna get flagged for plagiarism. And that’s not gonna go well. But if it gives you writing advice the same way I would give you writing advice, and you decide that advice is good, and you take that advice and you incorporate it into your own writing yourself, then the robot’s making you better, but you’re still the one doing your own writing.” And the writing they turned in from that assignment was, was better. It wasn’t written by ChatGPT; it was still about the student art that they found in the gallery. But I showed them a path. Like, it can help you with an outline, it can help you with feedback. Right? These are fair ways to use it that’s gonna make you better. And they really liked that. They really liked — no one had shown them that before. The idea that you don’t just take the teacher’s prompt and give it to it … like, these are new uses to students and worked well.
Eric Cross (00:16:17):
So right now, you both just laid out these ways that you’re using it. And I do this with people that I’m trying to introduce to ChatGPT or AI. ‘Cause I get excited. Anyone could write a 500-word persuasive essay on the use of color in The Great Gatsby or The Outsiders, and they can get something back within seconds. But for a lot of educators, it might feel like the sky is falling.
Donnie Piercey (00:16:43):
Oh, understandably! Understandably. I mean, that totally makes sense.
Eric Cross (00:16:49):
What would you say to them? Donnie, go ahead.
Donnie Piercey (00:16:51):
Yeah. Well, I feel like every teacher kind of goes through the same experience when they see like a generative chatbot. I mean, all these major companies are gonna start incorporating AI, the generative AI piece. And a lot of times, when they see it for the first time, two things. First they’ll say “Oh, but I’ll know that that’s not my students’ writing.” Which, frankly, I think is a good thing, because that tells me that the teachers know their students’ writing. They’ve seen them write in person. They’ve conferenced with them one-on-one. And if a student were to turn something in to me, who I know might be a struggling writer, maybe it’s not their strength, and all of a sudden they’re turning in this10-page dissertation-worthy thesis written at a PhD level, I’m like, “All right, man, you’re nine. Can we talk about where this came from?” <laugh> But I also don’t think that at like the heart, I don’t feel like kids want to cheat. I really don’t. I feel like sometimes like kids are in a situation where they’re like, “OK, I’ve got nothing left. I gotta get this assignment done.” And when those kind of things happen, that’s when we as teachers, we have those one-on-one conversations. Even when I showed my students ChatGPT and even some of the AI image-generating stuff for the first time, and I talked to them about, “What do y’all think about this?” Because, you know, they’re under 13. In my district, ChatGPT is blocked for students. Staff, we have access to it. And that’s just because one, it’s so new, and at the same time, we need to figure out, “What’s the best way they can go about using this tool?” But when we were talking about it as a class, you know, I didn’t want to ignore the elephant in the room. So I asked them, I said, “Hey, do you feel like this is something that you all would use to. …” I mean, I used the word. I said “cheat.” And to be honest, the majority of the students in my class, they were taken aback. They’re like, “What? You think we just would cheat all the time?” Right? <Laugh> And I’m like, “Oh, well good. I’m glad to know that integrity is still alive and well.” But yeah, that’s definitely my thoughts on it, as far as not only the student integrity piece — I think that that’s the big thing that you need to just bring up with your students. Because again, I like to think that I’ve seen my students write enough that if they were going to turn something in that wasn’t their voice, or it didn’t sound like them, like I could have that conversation. And don’t be surprised, too, if in the next … I don’t know, one month to a year, there’s lots of AI detectors that exist. A lot of them are these like third-party things. You can go ahead, but I would not be surprised if in the next year or so, like you start to see those AI detectors be built into Google Docs, into Microsoft Word, into even Canva. And honestly, it’s almost like a fail-safe button for teachers, that we could say “All right, this is telling me that this is 99% probably written by AI.” So you can have that conversation with a student that way.
Jennifer Roberts (00:20:03):
I mean, if you’re worried about it, Formative, right now, will even tell you if something is copy-and-pasted into the boxes that they give you for students to write in. I find that kids who cheat are desperate, you know. Especially at the high school level. They’re panic mode. And, and usually their panic comes from, “I have no idea how to even start this assignment.” And so part of what I wanna use ChatGPT for is to lower that barrier for them. Like, you’ve got an assignment, you don’t know where to start. Tell the robot, tell ChatGPT, about the assignment and ask it for a list of steps. You know, ask it for an outline. Ask it for a time management plan. I see so much tremendous potential for this to help many of my students with IEPs who have executive functioning issues.
Donnie Piercey (00:20:49):
Oh, a hundred percent, right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:20:51):
Yes, a hundred percent. This can be their personal assistant who, you know, instead of me sitting with them one-on-one and saying, you know, “This is the task you need to do, let’s break it down into these six discrete chunks,” the artificial intelligence can do that for them. And it can do that for teachers too. <laugh>
Donnie Piercey (00:21:09):
Jen, I was just thinking about, how long until we see like the phrase artificial intelligence written onto a student’s IEP? I could see that happening very, very soon.
Jennifer Roberts (00:21:20):
Right? They should be able to use that. And then, also, of course, all of its amazing beneficials for teachers. I had to completely rewrite a unit of my curriculum. I knew what I wanted to do. I had some ideas of things I wanted to put in there. And I resorted to, I went to EducationCopilot.com and typed in my stuff that I had: You know, what standards I wanted to cover, what outcomes I was hoping for mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it generated an eight-week unit for me. And I actually told it then to go back and do it as a 12-week unit so that I’d have more stuff in there to go and cherry-pick to decide what I really wanted to do. But it gave me ideas. It gave me places to start. It saved me an hour of just brainstorming. And I don’t think that was cheating. I still got to go in and decide which ideas were valid. And I still got to … you know, I mean, I’m a teacher. Can I get accused of cheating? I don’t think that’s a thing. It’s—
Eric Cross (00:22:18):
That’s collaborating! It’s collaborating!
Donnie Piercey (00:22:20):
Collaborating! It’s a feature! It’s a feature.
Jennifer Roberts (00:22:22):
It’s Tony Stark talking to Jarvis. You know, they’re figuring it out together.
Donnie Piercey (00:22:26):
Oh, when you use the AI, Jennifer, do you call yours Jarvis? In my class we call him Jeeves. ‘Cause remember Ask Jeeves?
Jennifer Roberts (00:22:33):
I think Eric calls it Jarvis.
Eric Cross (00:22:35):
Yeah. Jarvis is gonna be the AI’s name when, when I can get that fully functioning. There are some things that you had said, I just wanna circle back on. Donnie, Jen — so what I heard was like, best intentions. The part you said about integrity and students wanting to cheat … even the mindset that we go in assuming our students, what they would want to do and assuming best intentions, really kind of frames how you look at this kind of technology. And then Jen, you kind of brought up why students cheat, and realizing that either they don’t feel equipped, or maybe it’s time management, or something else. But most people — and I believe this as an educator — most students want to learn, and they want to be able to perform and achieve. And when they cheat, it’s because they didn’t feel like they could, for whatever reason. Whether it’s it’s outside factors, whether it’s something internal, motivation, whatever it is.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:24):
Or they were very disconnected and just didn’t care.
Eric Cross (00:23:27):
Sure.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:27):
This is just busy work the teacher’s giving me, so I’m gonna give it very little of my time and energy. But I think, yeah, it can be that. But if the kid cares about it, if they wanna learn, they wanna learn, you know?
Eric Cross (00:23:40):
Right.
Jennifer Roberts (00:23:40):
This is the day of the internet. Any kid can learn anything they really want to learn. And we see that all the time in our classes. The kid who has zero interest in what I’m teaching in English, but he is an expert coder, and that’s what he wants to spend his time learning. He’s like, “Can I read this C++ book as my independent reading book?” And I’m like, “You know, actually, you can. Go ahead.” <Laugh>
Eric Cross (00:24:01):
Yeah. And for both of you, saying that this makes content more accessible … and I think Donnie, or Jen, you said something about IEPs. I actually put in having it write an IEP to see what would happen. I gave it a prompt for a student’s ability level and I asked it to create a plan. And then I asked it to create a rationale. And it did! And it was good! I went through and vetted it. And right now … you know, a lot of it is funny, ’cause the conversation I’m having with different teachers is kind of like the Wikipedia one. Remember when Wikipedia first got out and everyone was like trying to discourage everybody from using it, because, well, it could be changed by anybody? And now everyone’s like, “Oh, check Wikipedia, and then steal the sources, ’cause they’re already done for you.” Like, the mindset has shifted since then. And I was talking to someone and they said, “Well. …” And I said, “We can use AI, it could be a tutor, these other things. …” And they said, “Yeah, but what happens?” And then insert apocalyptic scenario. Like, what happens if you don’t have access to wifi? And it reminded me of, for some reason, cooking classes. So in the 1700s you probably had to be able to farm to be able to generate your food. Right? Like, you had to get it from somewhere. But if you take a culinary class now, you just go to the grocery store. And someone might say, “Well, but you should know how to farm, ’cause what if there was this worldwide apocalypse and nobody could go to the grocery stores?” <Laugh> And you’re like, “Well, balance of probability though.” You know, it’s like we’ve been really been living in these iterations of life, and I think this next step for some folks … like, we don’t even realize, even like something like bank statements, right? So many folks are paperless. And there’s always a what-if scenario. What if you need it and the internet goes down. But we get so used to to to technology advancing and making our lives different. This kind of seems like that next iteration. And I wanna ask you this question: Are we looking at like the next calculator? The next internet, with this tech? Or do you think it’s too early to say?
Donnie Piercey (00:26:01):
Well, I’ve seen a lot of people compare ChatGPT to a calculator. I’ve seen that pop up on social media. There’s, “Oh well, no, this is like when the calculator was invented. Everyone was up in arms about how ‘that’s not what math students should do.’ Math should be pencil and paper, math should be this.’” However, you can give a kid a calculator and you can give ’em a word problem and they can punch in all the numbers, but they could do the wrong operation or they could put the decimal point in the wrong place, ’cause the student is still the one who’s controlling what’s on the calculator. Where with AI, all you gotta do is just copy it and then paste it into the bot and it’ll spit out whatever the question asked it for. Whether it was, you know, a 500-word rationale or proof for something in geometry, or if it’s analyzing data on a chart, it’ll do all that.
Jennifer Roberts (00:27:00):
Yes. But it’s not that magical. It’s back to what Eric did with the IEP. He put in a prompt and then he knew enough to ask for a rationale and then he knew enough about IEPs to critically read the results he got and make sure they actually worked for what he needed. He had to know all that. He was an expert using it to do an expert thing. My husband’s a computer scientist; he got ChatGPT to help him write an app, and it was a new programming language to him, and he could put in the data and he could ask for things that I would’ve never thought to ask for. But because he knows the language of computer science, he knew what to ask for. And when it gave him results that were bad, he could see that, and he could say, “Yes, but do it again, but without this,” or “make this part more efficient.” He, again, knew what to ask for. So I think the generative AI is, as a partner with humans, a powerful thing. But if the human doesn’t know what they’re doing, yeah. You’re still not gonna get great results.
Donnie Piercey (00:28:03):
<laugh> And I think that’s why I’m coming at this from the elementary school perspective, right? Because in K–5 students are still learning, like, “Hey, where does the decimal point go?” They’re still learning, you know, if you’re dividing by a two-digit number, where does the first digit go, if you go in the old long-division algorithm? And so they’re still acquiring that base-level knowledge that … I don’t know, maybe this is similar to in Jurassic Park when Jeff Goldblum says, “It didn’t take any knowledge to attain,” you know, “they stood on the shoulders of geniuses,” that whole thing. Like they had to acquire the knowledge for themselves, was his whole point. And so that’s why I don’t think it’s exactly the same as the calculator. It is definitely going to change things, in a similar way that the calculator did. But to me it’s just a whole new animal. And I don’t know if it’s going to be like the next internet, Eric — if you’re gonna get little devices that have AI built into it, like a Star Wars kind of thing, like a droid or something that follows you around — all that would be kind of cool, not gonna lie. But whether it’s something that you’ll access through the internet, something that’s built into your TV, that part I don’t know. But I do know that there’s a reason why all of these apps and all these companies are investing so much — not just energy, but time and money into it. Because they’re recognizing. “OK, this really has the potential to change things.” But if used well, and used safely, to change people’s lives for the better.
Eric Cross (00:29:41):
So I definitely hear that you both agree with the statement that if AI ChatGPT was used in the classroom, it could be a force for good. And literacy development. And I wanna shift gears a bit and then come back to the AI. So with that said — and we’re gonna get into some best practices in a minute — in Science Connections right now in this season, we’re making the case for how science can do more in classrooms and in schools. And so I’m I’m curious about what both of you think about the role in science fostering a better future when it comes to AI and education. And this season we’re really talking a lot about literacy. You know, in schools, so often it’s taught in a siloed way. And Donnie, you’re doing multi-subject. Jen, you’re single-subject: English. And we’ve really been trying to make this case for how science can actually support literacy, and these skills that students are trying to develop. So we’re going a little old-school, kind of diving into your content specialty, but maybe even pre-AI, or maybe AI has a component in this. But Don, maybe we’ll start with you. How has science been a way that has been helpful for your own literacy instruction? I know you do a lot of science, because I see your Google Earth stuff and the thing you did with the solar systems back in the day. And I think —.
Donnie Piercey (00:30:54):
Oh my gosh! You remember my <laugh> … wow.
Eric Cross (00:30:58):
That was amazing!
Donnie Piercey (00:31:00):
We haven’t done that since the pandemic. But I had my students go out, and using Google Earth, we built a scale model. Each of the students partnered up and they planned out on Google Earth a scale model of the solar system. They picked an object from around their house and we talked about like, “Don’t pick something bigger than a beach ball, or else, you know, your Neptune’s gonna end up like 10 miles away.” But you know, they just picked like a small ball, like a basketball, soccer ball, something like that. Or football, for international friends. And then we calculated the size of every other planet. And then on Google Earth, using their front lawn as where the sun was, then we went and we calculated where other planets would be, and then we actually drove to those locations and like held up the objects that would represent Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, and all that. But it was a lot of fun.
Eric Cross (00:31:59):
And is that still accessible? ‘Cause I know you have some websites that you put resources out there.
Donnie Piercey (00:32:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I can … I wanna say on my Resources page — Resources.MrPiercey.com — I’ve got a link on there to a couple of student examples that I can share. And if not, when we get off this call, I’m gonna go on and put them on there <laugh> so people can find it. I’ll even throw on there just the assignment itself. So if you wanted to copy that and do that with your students, you could.
Eric Cross (00:32:27):
Donnie, the reason why I brought that up is because I saw that you had posted that or shared it a long time ago, and I just thought it was the coolest thing that you could totally do with middle-school students or high-school students. Jen, when I became a teacher, you said, “We’re all teachers of literacy.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:32:43):
<laugh> Yeah. I think we forgot to tell them that I was one of your professors.
Eric Cross (00:32:47):
Yes. <Jennifer laughs> One of the people who’ve definitely influenced and shaped my teaching. And that statement has never left my mind: that we’re all teachers of literacy. And I want to ask you, at the high-school level, how can science educators, or how can science — how have you seen it, or how does it, support literacy, when it’s done right?
Jennifer Roberts (00:33:09):
Like I said, I think we’re all teachers of literacy, but I think literacy is bigger than just reading and writing. I don’t think someone is literate if they can’t talk somewhat knowledgeably about what’s happening with climate change. I don’t think someone’s literate if they don’t know what’s going on in the world. And I think so much of what’s going on in the world has to do with science. We’re doing that all the time. If I could teach English just by giving kids articles about science, things to read, that would make my day. Right? We would never read another piece of fiction again. It would all be, you know, what’s happening to the ice sheet in Greenland. My students thrive on reading non-fiction. And then whenever that non-fiction touches on science is even more interesting. And whenever I can get them writing about data, particularly their own data that they collected, I think that’s building those science literacy skills as well. So I think science and English blend together very, very well. I think the literacy aspects of that are fantastic. There are more subject-specific vocabulary words, advanced vocabulary words, in science than any other discipline. And I don’t see why those shouldn’t come up in English as well. You know, my seniors will do a unit at the end of the year on the new space race. Unless I replace it with a unit about generative AI, which I’m seriously considering doing, ’cause I think they really need to learn about bias in AI algorithms and things like that. And I would like to have them read a whole bunch about that stuff. And I wanna give them the open letter that all those CEOs signed that said that AI research should slow down, and make them part of that live conversation about what’s happening in that field. So science comes into that. You know, when we read Into the Wild, we start talking about a whole bunch of scientific concepts. And when it rains in Southern California, we pull up weather maps and look at radar and talk about that and how that works.
Donnie Piercey (00:34:59):
That’s like once every 10 years, Jen? <Laugh>
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:02):
Well, actually, this year it rained a lot. It rained a lot in San Diego. Which is actually very high-interest for them. ‘Cause they wanna know, is it gonna be raining at lunchtime?
Eric Cross (00:35:12):
Jen, you said something … you have your students writing about data?
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:16):
Oh yeah.
Eric Cross (00:35:17):
Can you tell me more about that?
Jennifer Roberts (00:35:19):
So, this is something we’ve done with the ninth grade team for a long time now, is writing about their own data. So it started with a unit about stereotypes and stereotype threat. And they would collect data individually and then they would enter that data into a Google form and then we would give them the spreadsheet of the aggregate data from the whole ninth grade. And then we morphed that unit into one about academic honesty, and they filled out a survey at the beginning of the unit about their feelings about academic honesty and about experiences with academic honesty and cheating and homework and things like that. And then we would do the unit. We’d do all the readings in the unit. And they’d have these “aha” moments about things that were happening at other schools. And then at the end of the unit, we would give them back their own aggregate data and ask them to write about whether or not academic honesty was an issue at our school. And then to support that answer with evidence from their own dataset. So they had that spreadsheet to comb through and figure out, you know, where am I gonna stand on this? We give them the multiple-choice questions we gave them as the graphs, in Google Slides, so that they could write about them and talk about them, too. So yeah, getting kids to write about data. And the the sentence frames we gave them were sentence frames out of, They Say, I Say, from the chapter on writing about science. And <laugh> as they write this stuff, they’re like, “I feel so smart writing this way.” And I’m like, “I know, ’cause you’re writing about big important topics!” Right? And writing about their own data come to think of it is another great way to make an assignment both very personal to them, but also make it ChatGPT-proof, you know, if you’re looking for something that kids can’t just hand to the robot, the robot doesn’t have that data set.
Eric Cross (00:37:08):
Absolutely. And Donnie, at the elementary level, do you, do you make connections between science and literacy? In your class? You talked about with math, definitely with the solar system, but now, I’m curious, what are your newer projects? What have you been working on lately?
Jennifer Roberts (00:37:23):
What’s up now, Donnie?
Eric Cross (00:37:24):
Yeah, what are you doing?
Donnie Piercey (00:37:25):
Oh, man. Well, let me think. I’m just trying to think of some fun projects that we’ve done this year. Science that we can tie in Literacy and also some student creation. Just recently we had a … so I’ve wanted to expose my students to famous scientists that weren’t just white dudes from Europe. So for this year, what I did — and I actually used AI for this — I went into ChatGPT and I asked for 64 famous scientists and it listed them all off. And then I asked it, like, how many of these were white? And I think it said like 61 of them. You know, it had like Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and a couple of other … I didn’t know who they were. So I’m like, “All right, so we need to make this more diverse and make this more equitable.” ‘Cause you know, with the student population in my classroom, try to find equal representation to make sure they can see themselves in some of these scientists. So, eventually got it narrowed down to where I had about 64 scientists. Half are women, half are men from all continents except Antarctica. I assigned these scientists to my students. Some got two; some got three. And their assignment was to go and one, do some individual research on this person, find out what they were famous for, what they were most well-known for, turn it actually into a persuasive piece, where I said, “Hey, you’re gonna have one slide.” And I’ll tell you why I gave him one slide in a minute. On that one slide, you’ve gotta convince the person who sees it that this scientist is the most important scientist since the dawn of creation. I said, “You could use images, text — I don’t care if they were famous for something that you didn’t even understand what it was. It’s a persuasive piece. You’re 10. Go all out. Add gifs, do that whole thing.
Eric Cross (00:39:21):
This is awesome.
Jennifer Roberts (00:39:21):
I wanna do this project.
Donnie Piercey (00:39:23):
And if you picked up on the number 64, and I did this in March, so what we did was throughout the weeks of March Madness of the women’s and men’s NCAA tournament, whenever a game was going on, we had another round of voting. I just paired ’em up. I was gonna like seed them, like 1 to 64 — that’s just way too much work for me <laugh>. So I just kind of did random kind of thing. But all the students had to do — they just saw the slides side-by-side, and the only question they had was, “Based on what you see here, who is the most important scientist? This person or this person?” And it eventually came down to Carl Sagan going up against Marie Curie.
Eric Cross (00:40:04):
OK, that’s a good matchup.
Donnie Piercey (00:40:06):
Yeah, well, the Marie Curie slide, they just liked the radium piece. So they added like some green glowing gifs. And I said, “Guys, it doesn’t always grow glow green.” But whatever. Anyway, eventually Carl Sagan, in case you wanted to know, according to the 10-year-olds in my classroom, is the most important scientist in the history of the world. So I don’t know if I agree with that per se — I think maybe Newton or somebody else might have had something else to say about it — but fun assignment. It was a unique way to expose my students to a bunch of ideas. I remember the student that I assigned Newton, the only thing that that she knew about Isaac Newton was “Didn’t he get hit in the head with an apple?” And I said, “Well, not exactly, I think you might have read or maybe seen too many like old-school cartoons or whatever.” But she ended up doing some research. She’s like, “Oh, I’ve heard of that before! That equal and opposite reaction thing.” Didn’t know what it meant. I had another student that just got really … you know, if you’ve ever been on one of those YouTube kicks where it’s just, you go like nine levels deep onto like, “What does this theorem mean?” Student sits in back of my classroom, I walked by one day and he’s just watching something on like the fifth dimension and what it might be. And I said, “Oh, your scientist got you started on that.” So definitely was a lot of fun. Unique way to combine reading, writing, but also expose my students to some ideas. And we’re definitely gonna do it again. I’ve actually done this assignment before. I picked 64 random elements on the periodic table. But their only slide that they have to make is “What’s your element? What is it used for? And then, why is this the most important element since the dawn of creation?” <Laugh> And, you know, there’s always that student that gets hydrogen. They’re just like “Sweet!” Right? They get excited about that one. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:41:59):
Explosions.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:00):
Yeah. But then, for that kid who likes a challenge, or that student with the “gifted” label, you give them, like, einsteinium or palladium. Some of the more challenging ones. And they go all out with this. I didn’t use AI for that one, but it was kind of fun, and I figured it’d be neat to share an idea that another teacher could try.
Eric Cross (00:42:20):
Well you probably have at least two teachers right now that are gonna go and try that. And we’re both looking at you. So.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:24):
Go for it.
Eric Cross (00:42:25):
Thanks for that idea. I’m imagining my students coming in with jerseys with “neon.”
Donnie Piercey (00:42:29):
Oh yeah. <laugh>
Eric Cross (00:42:30):
“Neon” on it. Just all ’80s out.
Donnie Piercey (00:42:33):
The game behind it, too, is you tell kids — again, this is just so the 10-year-olds in my class don’t get their feelings hurt — but I say, “Hey, and if your element gets knocked out, you just have to start cheering for whoever beats you in the tournament.” So by the end, you kind of got half the class cheering for one and half the class cheering for whatever.
Jennifer Roberts (00:42:53):
So the only thing I got outta that whole story that I’ve got for you is, as a child I met Carl Sagan. That’s all I got.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:02):
For real?
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:02):
For real.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:03):
So did he talk with that cadence and tone?
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:06):
Yes.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:06):
Like in real life? Wow.
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:07):
Yes. My father was one of the cinematographers on the original Cosmos. And I got to go to the set a few times.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:14):
That’s incredible!
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:15):
I did not appreciate what I was seeing as a child. But as an adult, I’m like, “That was cool. I was there.”
Donnie Piercey (00:43:20):
“You can see my shadow off in the distance.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:43:23):
I mean, maybe that’s part of why I’ve always had an interest in science. I’ve always had fantastic science teachers. Every science teacher I ever had was amazing.
Donnie Piercey (00:43:31):
I credit mine to Mr. Wizard. I don’t know if you ever watched Mr. Wizard and Beakman’s World?
Eric Cross (00:43:35):
I remember Mr. Wizard. Yep. Yep. I definitely remember Mr. Wizard, Beakman’s World, all those. That was on Nickelodeon back in the day. I had to get up early to watch that one. But there’s a YouTube video—
Donnie Piercey (00:43:44):
Six am!
Eric Cross (00:43:44):
<laugh> It was! It was super-early! But there was one, Don, I don’t know if you’ve seen this on YouTube, but it said “Mr. Wizard Is Mean,” and it’s just clips of when he’s—
Donnie Piercey (00:43:56):
Yelling at kids!
Eric Cross (00:43:56):
Chastising. Or being really direct. It’s just one after another.
Donnie Piercey (00:44:02):
He always asked ’em a question and if the kid, you know, didn’t answer it right, he’d be like, “Well, you’re not right, but you’re wrong.” You know, whatever. <Laugh>
Eric Cross (00:44:14):
I have to make sure I’m not subconsciously saying Mr. Wizard quotes when I’m talking in the classroom, when things are happening. But yeah, that video’s hilarious. So I just want to bring us back to AI, and ask this question: Do you think science has a special role to play when it comes to teaching kids about AI responsibly? Does science have a special role in that?
Jennifer Roberts (00:44:36):
I think the responsible piece of AI I wanna teach my students about is the part about the bias in the algorithms and the bias in the training. And I want them to understand how it works, well enough to make informed decisions about how it impacts their lives.
Donnie Piercey (00:44:56):
Hmm.
Jennifer Roberts (00:44:57):
Because I do have concerns about a tool that was trained on the internet. And the answers it gives you is the average of the internet. And do we trust the internet? And the answer from kids is always, “Well sorta, no.” <Laugh> So I want them to understand the social science behind that.
Donnie Piercey (00:45:18):
Yeah. And just along that same point, having the students recognize that just because, you know, you copy-and-paste a question in, the answer it spits out might not always be correct. So, teaching them that just like you would with a source that you find about a topic that you’re researching, you’ve gotta fact-check.
Jennifer Roberts (00:45:44):
It’s just like being a good scientist. A good scientist wouldn’t always accept a single result or the first result. You know, you would look at multiple angles. You would try things different ways. Last week I took the article my seniors were reading about victim compensation after 9-11, and in front of them, I gave ChatGPT, I said, “Are you familiar with this article by Amanda Ripley? And ChatGPT came back and said, “Oh yes, this was written in the Atlantic in 2020 and it’s about these things, blah, blah blah.” And my students looked at that and went, “That’s not the article we read.” And I said, “I know. It got it wrong. That’s amazing!” Yeah. And I was so happy that it got it wrong! ‘Cause I wanted them to see that happen.
Donnie Piercey (00:46:21):
And I guess one of the big science questions there, or one of the big science components there, is that idea of inquiry. Right? It’s almost like you have to teach students how to ask those deep questions about what AI spits out.
Eric Cross (00:46:35):
All of those tips are great. And it leads me to this last question I want to ask. New teachers that are out there — it actually doesn’t even matter; new teachers, experienced teachers, all of us are kind of new at different levels of this race. We’re all kind of starting it together. I mean, it hit mainstream. We’re all getting exposed to it. You all really dive into it. When tech comes out, I know you two really like, “OK, how can we use this to transform education and do awesome things for kids?”
Donnie Piercey (00:47:04):
Usually, when new tech comes out, “How can this make my life easier?” is usually the question. Yeah.
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:09):
“How can I save myself time with this?” Yes.
Donnie Piercey (00:47:11):
“How can this result in me watching more TV and you know, less grading,” sometimes.
Eric Cross (00:47:16):
And I start there like you, but then I end up more time that I fill with another project. And I need to learn how to stop doing that. I’m like, “Oh! I got more free time! … to go take on this other task.”
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:28):
Oh, all of my tech adoption is driven by “how can I work less?”
Eric Cross (00:47:32):
So you’re you’re talking to a new teacher, teacher’s getting exposed to this, they’re starting the school year or they’re just getting their feet wet with it. What advice would you give them about AI, incorporated into content or even just best practices? Where you’re at right now in your own journey, and someone’s asking you about it —what would you share with ’em? And Jen, I want to start with you.
Jennifer Roberts (00:47:53):
So, the first thing I did is I was in the middle of grading, you know, 62 essays from my seniors about Into the Wild, when ChatGPT became a thing last November. And I wanted to see what would happen. So the first thing I did was take the prompt that I had given my students and gave it to ChatGPT, ’cause I had just graded a whole bunch of those essays and my brain was very attuned to what my rubric was doing and what I was expecting as the outcome. So I could take what ChatGPT gave me as that quote unquote “essay” and evaluate it critically. And I was ready to do that. So my first advice is take something you’re already asking students to do and ask ChatGPT to do the same thing. So that as you look at the student results, you can compare that to what ChatGPTgives you. If what you’re finding is that ChatGPT can generate something that would earn a decent grade from you, you might need to change that assignment. And it doesn’t need to be a big change, but it might need a tweak or something, so that it, it does rely on the student voice, the students to do something more personal. I’m finding very helpful in my classroom is having my kids do projects where they are recording themselves on — I like Flip. So they’re writing a scene together and they’re having to record the scene together. And I’m emphasizing more of the speaking roles than the writing roles necessarily. So yes, first, take something you’re already doing, paste in to ChatGPT, see what the results are, see how that fits with what your students are doing, and then do that for every assignment you give and just sort of see what comes out of that, and see which assignments are failing and which assignments are working. ‘Cause that’s gonna give you a sense, when you do see one of those results from your students, you’ll be able to recognize it. But it’ll also help you tweak your assignments and decide, “How can I make this a little more original or a little bit more authentic for my students?” And if the robot, if the AI, can’t generate a response, what could the AI do that would be helpful to your students? Would be my next question. So can you use the AI to help them generate an outline? Can you use the AI to help them generate a list of steps to help them get started? And when you’re comfortable enough doing that by yourself, then don’t be afraid to open it in front of your class. If it’s not blocked at your school site, which I hope it’s not. Because I think the advantage goes to kids who have access to this in the long run, or at least see what it is and know what it is. Right? Because if a kid graduates from school without knowing that AI exists, they’re not gonna be prepared for what they face out in the world. So give them a chance to see you using it. Model effectively using it. I have a blog post about that. I just wrote it. LitAndTech.com. You can check that out. “Introducing 9th graders to ChatGPT.” How it went, right? There’s a chart there you can have. It’s my very first draft of this, but it seems to be very popular. So, you know, show students how it can be used as their mentor. If I can’t come read your paragraph because I have 36 kids in my classroom and I cannot stop and read everybody’s first paragraph, can you, if you want to, give your first paragraph to ChatGPT and ask for advice? And will that advice be helpful to you? So showing students how it can be used responsibly is, I think, something every teacher should be doing right now. And don’t hold back just because you’re afraid you’re gonna be teaching them what this is. They know what this is. Right?
Donnie Piercey (00:51:13):
They know what it is.
Jennifer Roberts (00:51:13):
Especially if you teach high school. They know what it is. I’ve had parents thank me for showing them how to use it responsibly. You know, this can actually be a really useful tool, but if you’re trying to make it do your work for you, it will probably fail you. If you’re trying to use it to help you do your work, it will probably be helpful. Sort of the way I’m breaking it down for them at this point. You want the great metaphor? The great metaphor is if you build a robot and send it to the top of a mountain, did you climb that mountain? No. If you build a robot and ask it to help you get to the top of the mountain, and you and the robot go together, did you climb that mountain? Yes.
Eric Cross (00:51:53):
I like that. I’m thinking through this. I’m processing that now.
Donnie Piercey (00:51:57):
Me too.
Eric Cross (00:51:59):
Yeah. I just imagine a robot holding my hand climbing Mount Everest and I’m like, “Yeah, I did it.”
Donnie Piercey (00:52:04):
If I got a robot though, like I would have to dress it like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2. Like I would just have to.
Eric Cross (00:52:10):
Of course.
Donnie Piercey (00:52:10):
Of course.
Eric Cross (00:52:13):
Donnie, same question. Advice. Teachers getting immersed into it. Tips. What would you say?
Donnie Piercey (00:52:20):
So, I would definitely agree with everything that Jen said. Just, if anything else, to familiarize yourself with it. Almost like pretend like it’s a student in your classroom and it’s answering questions, just so that way you can see what it can do. And you’re kind of training yourself, like, “Oh, well, if I ever need examples, exemplars.” If you’re in a writing piece and you don’t wanna sit there and write out four different types of student responses — you know, advanced writer, beginning writer, whatever — great way to to do that is you just—
Jennifer Roberts (00:52:48):
Oh yeah. We did that.
Donnie Piercey (00:52:48):
—copy the prompt in and give a beautifully written piece that a fifth grader would be impressed with. Boom. It’ll do it for you. In my classroom, the way that I approach it is I kinda look at AI as almost like this butler that I don’t have to pay. That if I need it to do something for me, it’s just bookmarked. I can click it. And I mean, sometimes I just talk to it like it’s a person. And it’s almost like, in the chat window, I’m just rambling at it, what I’m trying to do. And it’s almost like I’m talking to a coworker, and I’m trying to hedge out some ideas for a lesson. Simple example: For a science lesson, if you’re trying to come up with … let’s say you’re a fifth-grade — or, sorry, I teach fifth grade. Say you’re a seventh-grade science teacher. And you’re trying to teach the students in your class about Newton’s third law of motion. You know, every action [has an ] equal and opposite reaction. Look around your room. See what you have. Maybe look around and you’re like, “All right, I got a whiteboard, microscope, I’ve got magnets, a cylinder. …” And you just copy all this stuff into ChatGPT. Say, like, “Hey, I have all of these items. Cotton balls, peanut butter, whatever.” And say, “I’m trying to teach students Newton’s third law of motion. Give me some ideas of some ways I could teach it using some of these materials.” And it’ll do it! It’ll give you like five to 10 ideas!
Jennifer Roberts (00:54:15):
And then tell it what your students are into. Like, my students are really into basketball. Can you work that into this lesson?
Donnie Piercey (00:54:21):
Yeah! They’re into the Avengers! Hey, find some way to tie Spider-Man into this. You know, that was a pun that didn’t go so well. But, you know <laugh> figure out some way that you could incorporate this and it’ll do it. And Eric, like you said, it won’t be perfect. Right? But if anything else, if you’re a starting teacher and you’re trying to brainstorm ideas — try it.
Eric Cross (00:54:44):
And Donnie, as you were saying that, I was thinking — first, I imagined Spider-Man shooting cotton balls with peanut butter all over them — and then my mind went to having students have these items, like you were saying. And then they create labs, working alongside AI. To do inquiry. To create a lab about something, and then going and performing and collecting data. OK, that’s — now I wanna go do that tomorrow!
Donnie Piercey (00:55:10):
Listen, it is so easy to do. If you have an extra computer in your classroom. … We were talking about Jarvis and Iron Man and Tony Stark earlier. Make a new chat in ChatGPT. Tell it, “I want you to pretend that you are Tony Stark. Only answer questions as if you are Tony Stark.” Or “Pretend you’re Jarvis.” Whatever. “Stay in character the whole time. I’m going to have sixth grade students come up to you and ask you questions about science or forces of nature, and only answer questions like you’re Iron Man.” And guess what? You keep that station in your classroom. Students are working on a project — you know, in elementary school, a lot of times we’ll have that, “ask three before me” — you’re supposed to ask three friends before you go and bug the teacher. Well, maybe one of those “three before me” can be that little computer station, where they go up and ask Tony Stark a question, and then it answers them as Jarvis or Iron Man. I mean, we’re really just scratching the surface with all this AI stuff. And as more and more companies and more and more creatives are gonna start to realize everything that it can do, we’re gonna start to see it more and more. And hopefully we as teachers can really figure out how to use this tool to, of course, help students, but also help them be creative and explore and learn on their own.
Eric Cross (00:56:35):
That’s amazing. And just both of you are just dropping gems right now. And I wanna wrap up by saying — and I’ve said this before on earlier podcasts I’ve done — but at this phase in my life, the people that I’m the biggest fans of are teachers. And it’s true. I don’t mean that in a cliche way. When I watch celebrities and things like that, when I watch professional sports, that doesn’t fill me the way it used to when I was a kid. At this point, as a professional, I get inspired by other educators who are just doing awesome things. And when I think about educators who are doing that, you two are on that list of people that make me better. And when I get better, I can do better things for my kids. And so, one, I want to thank you for staying in the classroom and continue to support students. They’re so lucky to have you both. The second thing I wanted to say is, Jen, I wanna start with you. Where can people — and I know we said at the beginning — but where can people find the stuff that you put out? You got blogs, your social, your book.
Jennifer Roberts (00:57:28):
I got lots of social. Twitter, I’m JenRoberts1 on Twitter. And then my blog is LitAndTech.com. And then I’m on lots of the new social too, the Mastodons, the Spoutables, the Posts — those kinds of things — as just Jen Roberts, because I got in early and I got my real name without a 1. And there was some other one I’m on recently that I’ve forgotten about. But there’s lots of ’em. They’re fun. And I’m Jen Roberts. You can find me there.
Donnie Piercey (00:57:56):
And I’m SergeantPepperD on AOL, if anyone’s interested.
Eric Cross (00:58:00):
If you wanna hit Donnie up on AIM. <Laugh>
Donnie Piercey (00:58:03):
SergeantPepperD.
Jennifer Roberts (00:58:04):
You know, speaking of rock stars and people who do amazing things, I did write a blog post about using ChatGPT in the classroom, but I hear Donnie wrote a whole book.
Eric Cross (00:58:13):
Oh yeah. So, Donnie! Donnie, that’s a great segue. Thanks Jen. Donnie, how do people find out more? And can you tell us about this book you wrote, that’s coming out in the summer?
Donnie Piercey (00:58:22):
Yeah, so the book I wrote is called 50 Strategies for Integrating AI Into the Classroom. It’s published by Teacher Created Materials. They reached out to me. They had seen some of the stuff that I was doing, not just with ChatGPT, but also some image-generating AI stuff. You know, I got featured on Good Morning America, which was kind of cool. And they saw that and they said, ‘Hey, that looks really neat.” Reached out to me and asked me to write a book. And the idea behind the book, that launches this summer, it’s just 50 ideas, 50 prompts, different things that, as a classroom teacher, that you can do. So, you know, I think there’s so many AI books that are out there now. A lot of them are big ideas, which I think are important. Definitely important discussions that need to be, have around, the ethics of AI. What’s the role that AI should play in the classroom. But I just wanted to write a book, kind of like the discussion that, that Jen and I were just having, which is like, “Can we just share a whole bunch of ideas, different things that we could try with our students?” So definitely check it out. And I appreciate you giving me a shout-out too. That was cool, Eric. Thank you.
Eric Cross (00:59:35):
Of course. Definitely. And Donnie, your Twitter is again. …
Donnie Piercey (00:59:39):
Oh, @MrPiercey, M R P I E R C E Y.
Eric Cross (00:59:44):
Follow Donnie. Follow Jen. Tons of stuff on there. Both of you, thank you so much. For your time, for talking about students and how we can take care of them, science, literacy, AI. I hope we can talk about this again. I feel like even if in just six months, we might be saying different things. In a year, the landscape might completely change. And that makes it really fun. But thank you both for being on the show.
Jennifer Roberts (01:00:04):
Thank you for having us, Eric.
Donnie Piercey (01:00:05):
Thank you so much, Eric. We appreciate it, bud.
Eric Cross (01:00:10):
Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Jen Roberts and Donnie Piercey. Jen Roberts is a veteran English teacher at San Diego’s Point Loma High School and author of the book Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning. You can keep up with her at LitAndTech.com. And Donnie Piercey is a fifth-grade teacher from Lexington, Kentucky. He hosts the podcast Teachers Passing Notes. Stay up-to-date with him at Resources.MrPiercey.com. And let us know what you think of this episode in our Facebook discussion group, Science Connections: The Community. Make sure you don’t miss any new episodes of Science Connections by subscribing to the show, wherever you get podcasts. And as always, we’d really appreciate it if you can leave us a review. It’ll help more people and AI robots find the show. You can find more information on all of Amplify’s shows on our podcast hub, Amplify.com/hub. Thanks again for listening.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Wednesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month!
Meet the guests
Jen Roberts is a Nationally Board Certified high school English teacher with 25+ years of experience teaching Social Science and English Language Arts in grades 7-12. She has had 1:1 laptops for her students since 2008 and is the co-author of Power Up: Making the Shift to 1:1 Teaching and Learning. A Google for Education Certified Innovator since 2011, Jen was named the CUE Outstanding Educator in 2022. Her interests include literacy instruction, standards based grading, and leveraging Google tools to make her teaching more efficient and effective.
Donnie Piercey, the 2021 Kentucky Teacher of the Year, is a fifth-grade teacher in Lexington, Kentucky. With a passion for utilizing technology to promote student inquiry, learning, and engagement, he has been teaching since 2007. In addition to being in the classroom, he runs a podcast, Teachers Passing Notes that is produced by the Peabody Award winning GZMShows, and holds several recognitions, including a National Geographic Fellowship to Antarctica in 2018. His most recent work in Artificial Intelligence has not gone unnoticed, earning him multiple appearances on Good Morning America, the Associated Press, and PBS. His upcoming book, “50 Strategies for Integrating AI in the Classroom” published by Teacher Created Materials, is written for educators looking for practical classroom approaches to using AI. All told, Donnie has been invited to keynote and present at schools in thirty-three states and on five continents.
About Science Connections
Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher.
You might also like:
S3-01: Science as the underdog, and the research behind it
Get ready for season 3 of Science Connections: The Podcast!
In our first episode, we unpack the research around our season theme of science as the underdog with Horizon Research, Inc. Vice President Eric R. Banilower and Senior Researcher Courtney Plumley. Eric and Courtney dive into the research they’ve found and their experiences as former educators to show how science is often overlooked in K–12 classrooms. We discuss how the science classroom compares to other subjects in terms of time and resources, how schools are a reflection of society, and what’s needed to change science and its impact on a larger scale.
We hope you enjoy this episode and explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page!
Courtney Plumley (00:00):
We asked teachers how much science, professional development, they’ve had in the last three years, and nearly half of elementary teachers said none.
Eric Cross (00:10):
Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. I am super-excited to be kicking off the third season with the show. This entire season will be exploring the theme of science as the underdog. And we’re gonna make the case for science, by showing how and why it can be used more effectively. In the coming episodes, we’re gonna talk about how science can be better integrated into other content areas like literacy and math, and explore some of the benefits that you might not be thinking about good science instruction. But first, science as the underdog. I bet some of you out there feel like science is the underdog in your community at school. I know I have at times. To kick off this season, I’m gonna talk to two people who really studied this question by looking at the state of science instruction across the US. Eric Banilower is Vice President of Horizon Research and Courtney Plumley is Senior Researcher at Horizon Research. Eric was the principal investigator and Courtney an author of the latest in a series of studies called “The National Survey of Science and Mathematics Education.” We’re gonna dive into the findings of their most recent report to see what the data’s showing us. Please enjoy my discussion with Eric Banilower and Courtney Plumley. Courtney, hello. And thank you so much for joining us.
Courtney Plumley (01:25):
Hi Eric. It’s nice to be here.
Eric Cross (01:26):
And Eric, welcome.
Eric R. Banilower (01:27):
We’re thrilled to be here, so thank you for having us.
Eric Cross (01:30):
I was reading through the report. Four hundred…a very thorough report, 471 pages, I think, as I got it?
Eric R. Banilower (01:37):
And that’s only one of the many reports from that study.
Eric Cross (01:40):
Yeah. You all have done your work, so I’m really excited to to talk to you about this. And on this season of the show, we’re exploring the theme of science as the underdog. And I think a lot of our listeners, we feel like science is an underdog either in their school or in their district. But you’ve actually done some research on this, in a 2018 study, “The National Survey of Science and Mathematics Education.” So I wanna talk about this report. But first I was hoping you can kind of set the stage. How did you come to work on this report, and then, big picture, what were you hoping to find out?
Eric R. Banilower (02:10):
So the 2018 study that you just mentioned was actually the sixth iteration of a series of studies dating back to 1977. And we collect data every decade or so—you know, plus or minus a few years. And really, what we’re trying to do is get a snapshot of what the science and math education system looks like in in the nation. So my role grew. I started working at Horizon in about 1998, after teaching high school for five years in California. And then going to graduate school. And right about that time, the company was doing the 2000 iteration of the survey. And I worked on it with the team here at Horizon. And then we did it again in 2012. And I had a much more prominent role in that study, and became the kind of leader of the study. And in 2018, the most recent version, we just did it again. So the goal of this study is really to kind of examine key aspects of the K–12 STEM education system. And the main audience of the work has traditionally been policy makers, researchers, and practitioners who work at the federal, state, and district level.
Eric Cross (03:30):
So this study, you took kind of a sample size, but it’s reflective of trends that we tend to see across the nation as a whole. Would that be fair to say?
Eric R. Banilower (03:38):
Yes, definitely it is. It is a random sample of schools in the country. So we start with a list of all the public and private schools in the nation, and then do a random sample of those schools, and then work really, really hard to recruit schools to agree to be in the study. And that has gotten harder every time we’ve done the study, for many understandable reasons. And then once we have schools on board, we sample teachers within schools. So we don’t even survey every teacher in a school. It’s really a sub-sample. So that we can make inferences about the nation as a whole.
Eric Cross (04:14):
Makes sense. And so Courtney, what did you find out about the time spent on science instruction in US schools?
Courtney Plumley (04:22):
So, I’m gonna talk about elementary teachers to begin with.
Eric Cross (04:26):
Because that was your past life, right?
Courtney Plumley (04:28):
I am a former elementary teacher, yeah. So that’s kind of where my head is. And that’s relatable for me. Right? So we asked teachers, like, how many days of the week or weeks of the year that they teach elementary school. And fewer than 20% teach science every day of the school year. They kind of do one or two things, for the most part. They teach a couple days a week or they teach every day of the week, but only for, like, maybe six weeks, and then they swap with social studies and they kind of do that across the school year. Which is really different from, like, math, right? We also asked elementary teachers, how often do they teach math, and it’s every day of the year. Then we also asked them how many minutes they teach when they’re teaching, and we kind of did the math to figure out, all right, if they taught science every day of the school year, how many minutes would it be in a single day, so that we could make a more comparable comparison with math and ELA. If you were to work it out, how many minutes of science an elementary teacher teaches across the year, and break it down to per day, it’s like 18 minutes for the lower elementary grades, 27 for the upper elementary grades. Which is not a lot. But it’s pretty much an hour a day in math, and 80 plus minutes in ELA. So, a lot less. And then, you know, when I was teaching, the first thing to go was always science, right? If there was an assembly, if there was early release or whatever, that was the first thing to go. So those numbers might even be higher. Just because they aren’t factoring that kind of thing in, too.
Eric Cross (06:05):
So, now I’m curious. That is something that I’ve seen just anecdotally, science being the first thing to go. I feel like I’ve seen that almost…it’s almost become a meme, that I’ve heard that so often. Just in your experience, why do you think that is that huge disparity between the two?
Courtney Plumley (06:26):
Well, I mean, when I was teaching, I was teaching third grade. I had an end-of-grade test in math and ELA for my kids. I didn’t have one in science. So the administration said, “Hey, if you’re gonna drop something, drop something that’s not tested.”
Eric Cross (06:41):
Simple as that. And Eric, you, past life: physics teacher. High school. What did you see? ‘Cause our listeners run the gamut from elementary all the way up to high school. What did you see, as far as relative science instruction in the secondary level?
Eric R. Banilower (07:00):
Sure. You know, secondary is just a whole different situation than elementary. Rght? Because you have departmentalization. I taught science. I didn’t have to teach other subjects. And students had periods, and they still do, sorry, they still have periods, even though it’s been a long time since I taught. And you know, they rotate from one class to another. So all the classes were essentially the same length. So, you know, when I was teaching, it was about 50-minute periods. So in terms of minutes of a class or minutes on a subject, it’s not really different. But what is different is what students are required to take in order to graduate high school. One of the things we asked schools about in this study was how many years of a subject do students have to take in order to graduate? And what we saw was in mathematics, over half the schools in the nation require students to take four years of mathematics to graduate. OK? And the vast majority of the rest, about 44%, require three years in science. Most schools require three years. Very few require four years. And many, or a fair number, still only require two years to graduate. So the expectation of what students are taking is lower in science than it is in mathematics.
Eric Cross (08:20):
So you were seeing the same trend in secondary, essentially.
Eric R. Banilower (08:24):
Yes.
Eric Cross (08:24):
The amount of time devoted to the instruction of science…we’re kind of seeing it mirrored just across K–12 across the board.
Eric R. Banilower (08:33):
That’s correct.
Eric Cross (08:34):
And that’s across the country. ‘Cause the sample size represents teachers from Alaska, Hawaii, the South, SoCal, everywhere. So what’s been the reaction to that number? Like 18 to 20 minutes is…I mean, it’s, it’s half of my lunch at our school. What’s been the reaction to that number since this data has been published?
Eric R. Banilower (08:58):
I don’t know, Courtney, if you want to take that…
Courtney Plumley (09:00):
It’s a lot of what you just did. Like, what??? Like, how is it possible to teach all the things you need to teach in such a little amount of time?
Eric R. Banilower (09:08):
What’s really kind of surprising to me, though — though now that I’ve worked on three iterations of the study, it no longer surprises me, but it did at first — is that these numbers really aren’t changing since we’ve started doing this study. You know, people thought maybe with No Child Left Behind and the increase in accountability, time on science might actually go down, because there was more testing in math and English Language Arts. It didn’t happen. It was pretty much constant, that this has been kind of the state of science education for a long time.
Eric Cross (09:44):
So Eric, if I’m hearing you right: The past studies, we’re not seeing an increase or a decline. This has been this way for how many years, roughly, would you say? Since it’s been studied?
Eric R. Banilower (09:54):
You know, I’d have to go back to the 1977 report to get the numbers, but I’m gonna say since then, it has not changed much, if at all.
Eric Cross (10:03):
So this has kind of been entrenched. This has been the norm for almost for the career of a teacher, almost generationally. We’re looking at anyone who’s been in the highest levels of leadership to someone just entering the classroom, this has been the way it’s always been. This is kind of for many people what they’ve only known.
Eric R. Banilower (10:20):
Right.
Eric Cross (10:21):
Kind of become the norm.
Courtney Plumley (10:21):
We didn’t even have science when I was in elementary school. We had science on a cart that came by, you know, every other week.
Eric Cross (10:28):
Was that like a food truck, but like the science version of it? It shows up and does quick science and takes off?
Courtney Plumley (10:35):
And New York was, I mean — we always watched Voyage of the Mimi. I don’t know if you ever watched that. But that’s what we watched every single time the Science on the Cart came. So it’s like a marine biology show. Ben Affleck was on it when he was a kid.
Eric Cross (10:48):
<laugh> Really? For me it was, Mr. Wizard. For some of my students, even now, Bill Nye. You know, the Bill Nye show or something would come on. So what happens when you look at less wealthy districts? Is there a relationship between community resources and science instruction, or is it pretty much equal no matter what the district resources are, the school’s resources are? Did you see any data there?
Eric R. Banilower (11:12):
Yes. We actually did a lot of disaggregating the data by community type, student demographics in the schools, to look to see whether there were areas of inequities across the country. And, you know, one of the factors we looked at was kind of a measure of socioeconomic status. You know, wealth in the community. By looking at percentage of students eligible for free or reduced-price lunch. And interestingly, in terms of time on science instruction, there is actually not a relationship between income level and how much time is spent at the elementary level on science, which actually surprised us.
Eric Cross (11:54):
Because you might have expected it to be the other way now. And granted, it’s 18 to 20 minutes, there isn’t much more to shave off off of that. But were there other differences, like when you compared those communities? Maybe it wasn’t the amount of science instruction, but was there anything else, like teacher preparedness, resources? Were there anything else that you did see discrepancies in? Or was it equal across the board?
Eric R. Banilower (12:13):
No, unfortunately there, there have been, and still are, a number of areas where community resources are related to pretty substantial differences in educational opportunities that students have. So, you know, we’re talking about the high school science requirements. One of the things that we saw was that high schools in less wealthy communities tend to offer less rigorous science courses than high schools in better-off-financially communities. So they may not be AP courses or second year advanced courses to the same extent that there are in the wealthier communities. That’s one big difference that we saw. Another one was what you were just saying about, sort of, the teachers who teach in these communities. You know, I think that for many years people have had a feeling that the best teachers go to the better off schools because it’s easier to teach there. Well, we see that the schools with the most poverty, they tend to have the newer teachers, who are just starting their career. They tend to have teachers who are less well prepared to teach their subject. And there’s a host of other differences we found. And you know, you mentioned the report being 400 pages. This other report that looks at these differences is also quite long, and, you know, identified a number of areas where there are these disparities in the system.
Eric Cross (13:43):
Well, we appreciate you synthesizing this for us, because this is super-important. And you’ve fleshed out a lot of things. And the fact that it’s driven by data, we as science teachers, we as scientists, being objective, really, really value that. Because this is actually validating a lot of the things that our listeners and myself, we experience anecdotally. But you don’t have a lot of things to network you. And sometimes, when you see this, you wonder if it’s just you, or is are other people experiencing this? And so as you start talking about this data, realizing, oh wow, this is not something in isolation. This is systemic. This is something that’s impacted. And then Eric, what you said about schools that were lower-income, that were under-resourced, and didn’t offer those advanced classes, what are some of the impacts of that, maybe downstream, of doing that? Not having those AP classes? I just kind of wanted to put that out there and ask you.
Eric R. Banilower (14:31):
You know, this is a really…this is a current debate right now, about what the goals of schooling K–12 should be. You know, are all kids meant to go to college? Should there be alternative paths? And you know, I know when I was teaching, I would have students say, “Why do I need to know this? I’m not gonna go into science. I’m not gonna study physics. Why do I need to take this?” And, you know, the answer I used to give them was, “You never know where your life is gonna end up and what opportunities you’ll have. And by having these educational experiences, you have more opportunities available to you. Whether or not you choose to go down those paths, you have opportunities. And when you don’t take this kind of coursework, you know, even if you don’t want to go to college, you limit your potential careers. Because so many careers nowadays require some technical knowledge, some knowledge of science, even if it’s not explicitly a science job. It is embedded in our society now. We are a technological and science-based society.”
Eric Cross (15:37):
It reminds me of something that I’ve told my students, that if you become a scientist, that’s awesome. I love that. But if you don’t, and you want to be a dancer or an actor or a lawyer or anything that may not be directly related to STEM, I want you to choose it because it was a choice, and not a lack of options. So as long as you’re choosing not to go in STEM, and you don’t make that decision because you can’t, or because you weren’t given the opportunity. So that’s how I’ve always had this mindset as a teacher. And I’ve explained it to my students. So if you say, “Cross, you know what I want to do, I wanna be an awesome chef,” which, you know, low-key that’s science, right? <laugh> Molecular gastronomy, we know that. But like, you be the best chef. But as long as you’re being a chef because you choose that, and you’re like, “I love science, but I don’t wanna go that direction,” we’re good.
Eric R. Banilower (16:26):
Right. And if you think about, a lot of social justice issues with pollution and climate change, and you look at which communities are more affected by some of these larger environmental problems and challenges, it tends to be the lower socioeconomic communities, the more poverty-stricken communities have worse water, have worse air quality. And so if, if people from these communities are going to make informed decisions about who they’re gonna vote for, about what policies they’re gonna support, those are science topics that you have to have some understanding in order to make informed decisions in your life.
Eric Cross (17:09):
Courtney, you were one of the Swiss Army Knife teachers. This is how I perceive it for elementary. You had to teach everything. And shout out to all of my elementary school teachers that have to be mathematicians and grammar whizzes and scientists and PE instructors and social emotional, all of those different things. you also looked at teacher preparedness. How did teachers feel about teaching science compared to other subjects like language arts and math? Did you see anything there?
Courtney Plumley (17:39):
We did, we did. And I’m glad you said, “How did they feel about it?” Because one thing that, you know, in a survey you can’t really do is capture how someone actually…how good someone actually…the quality of someone’s instruction. But you can ask them how prepared they feel. And you can even ask them like stats, like, “What did you major in in college?” You know. But you really are going on based on what what they say. So we ask them how prepared they feel to teach all the core subjects. And two-thirds of elementary teachers felt very well prepared to teach reading. They felt very well prepared to teach math. But when it comes to science, it’s less than a third felt very well prepared. And you know, like you said, when you’re teaching elementary school, you’re teaching all the subjects. But also in science, there’s usually four main instructional units in a school year. And they’re all from different science disciplines. So not only are you going on, like, “Maybe in college took a lot of bio classes, but I didn’t take any physics classes, and now I have to teach physics to my kids and I have no experience there.” So, you know, we also ask them how well-prepared they felt in these different disciplines. And the numbers are even smaller, you know. Fewer than a quarter felt very well-prepared in life science. And like 13% felt very well-prepared in physical science. So there’s definitely a big difference between how much teachers feel prepared for ELA and math versus science.
Eric Cross (19:08):
And just from a human perspective, when we don’t feel prepared for something, we’re not really gonna probably lean into it as much as we are into our strengths. Like, that’s just kind of how we are across the board.
Courtney Plumley (19:18):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (19:18):
I’m even like that with my own chores in the house. Or when I have things I need to get done, and I might not be as good at doing those things—it’s gonna be a heavy cognitive load; I’m gonna have to do some background research—I tend to find other areas to excel in. Like, I’m gonna be productive in this other area. I’m gonna really crush it here. But this other thing gets put to the back burner.
Courtney Plumley (19:36):
Totally. And the same reason I might skip science today, <laugh> ’cause it’s scary.
Eric Cross (19:41):
Yeah, exactly. But I love this book. <Laugh> Or we could do this math, and let’s really, really dive deep into it. Now, did you also look at professional development and instructional resources that are being provided?
Courtney Plumley (19:53):
We did.
Eric Cross (19:54):
And on the whole, how was the amount—and I’m seeing a trend here, so I’m kind of feeling like I know where this might go—but I wanted to ask it, did the amount of professional development and resources for science, was there much of a difference between that and other subjects?
Eric R. Banilower (20:10):
Well, I’ll start on this, and Courtney, feel free to jump in. You know, one of the things that we asked was how much kind of discretionary funding do schools devote to science and how much to mathematics? So, for consumables or equipment and supplies or computer software for teachers to use in the classroom. And it’s hard to compare, I think, across subjects because the demands for this kind of supplies, et cetera, is very different, I think, in science than it is in mathematics. Right? We have a lot of, you know, equipment for doing investigations, consumable supplies in science. And those things need to be replenished on a regular basis. It turns out, when we look at the data for school discretionary spending on this kind of stuff, the median school spends less than $2 per student at the elementary level on science, compared to over $6 for mathematics. At the high school level, it’s kind of reversed. Schools spend more money on high school science than they do on high school math. but even still, at the high school, it’s less than $7 per student. Which is not a lot of money being devoted to thinking about all the materials, supplies, chemicals, et cetera, that you need to teach science well, at the high school level. More disturbing is the fact that, you know, we were talking about inequities before, schools that serve less well-off communities spend less than schools that serve wealthier communities, by quite a big amount.
Eric Cross (21:46):
So essentially the per-student thing just kind of popped out to me: So, like, an expensive Starbucks drink is what we’re spending on science per student.
Eric R. Banilower (21:57):
At the high school level. Yes.
Eric Cross (21:58):
At the high school level. And I get those catalogs in the mail, from all of those big science companies. You can’t get much for seven bucks. At least, nothing high-level. And I know I do a lot of 99-cent store science. I go down the street, go to the 99-cent store. Thankfully we could do a lot of awesome science with just, you know, cheap things. But a lot of the higher level experiences, they’re pricey. But the experiences are so rich! And $7 at the high school level is nothing. It’s not much at all.
Eric R. Banilower (22:28):
Yeah. It is definitely, you know, kind of shocking to think about what we’re investing in our children’s future.
Eric Cross (22:37):
Now, just to put you both on the spot, ’cause I feel like that we’ve identified some…we’re seeing a trend here, we’re seeing a pattern. We’re talking about, you know, being science teachers. There’s a pattern going on here. Do you think it’s fair to characterize science as the underdog?
Courtney Plumley (22:52):
I think in elementary school, it is a fair statement. Because, like we said before, I mean they’re gonna preference math and ELA almost all the time. I mean, the other thing you’d asked a little bit ago was about professional development, too. And we do have some data on that. And we ask teachers, you know, how much science professional development they’ve had in the last three years. And nearly half of elementary teachers said none. And I know I didn’t have any science professional development. If I was gonna pick from among the catalog, I was picking one that I needed more, like math. Math and ELA. I keep making that statement, but just over and over, it’s the truth.
Eric Cross (23:31):
And going back to what you said earlier, because that’s where the accountability was, right? And that kind of came top-down.
Courtney Plumley (23:38):
Yes.
Eric Cross (23:38):
And influenced everything else.
Eric R. Banilower (23:40):
Yeah. Now, really interesting thing that we did, a year or so ago, ’cause someone asked us, you know, “Hey, could you look at this?” is we compared elementary science instructional time among states where science counted towards accountability versus states where science doesn’t count towards accountability. And at the upper elementary grades, more time was spent on science in schools in states where they had science accountability. Now I’m not arguing for adding science to accountability systems. But that’s a pretty telling piece of data.
Eric Cross (24:19):
What gets measured gets done.
Eric R. Banilower (24:20):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (24:20):
Or what was getting evaluated was getting done. And that raises, that opens up a myriad of other questions about testing, and what that reveals, and all of those different things. But at the end of the day, what you’re finding is that the things that were getting tested were the things that were getting the priority.
Eric R. Banilower (24:36):
That’s right.
Eric Cross (24:37):
How did we get to this point? And Eric, you said it goes back at least to ’77, but we look at society and we’re…I wanna say we’re post-pandemic, but we’re we’re not. but we’re trying to, we’re trying to get past that. But we’re looking at…we had innovations in biology, we have innovations right now in green energy and electric cars and all of these things that are STEM-based. We know that these are things that have moved humanity forward. And we look at the pipeline of people who are in STEM and we, we see the disparities and things like that. Why was science given less of a priority? I’m just curious. Maybe, Courtney, we could start with you, if you have any ideas. Or Eric. Either one. But how did we get here?
Eric R. Banilower (25:22):
<laugh> I think Courtney wants me to take that one. I’m older so I’ve seen more <laugh>. So, you know, I have the gray hair. She doesn’t. I think it’s complicated. And I know this sounds cliche, but but schools are a reflection of society, right? And, and so science education, you know, if you think back when Sputnik was launched, there became this great demand in America to improve and produce more scientists and engineers in response to this Cold War threat. Right? And then in the ’80s there was rising, oh, the gathering storm was an economic argument that we needed to increase science and math, you know, education and people going into those fields in order to compete economically against the global competitors. And I think that America has always produced a fair number, a large number, of high-quality scientists and engineers, you know. And we still lead the world in many ways. But where we’ve identified as a problem is who has those opportunities to go into those fields. You know, it used to be a very select, a very male-dominated, white male-dominated field. Right? And other people didn’t have the opportunity, or they were shown the way out pretty early. And we, I think, have come to realize as a country that, you know, the, the greater the diversity of thought that we can get into these discussions, the more innovative we can be and the more productive as a society we can be. And so I think we’ve had this shift in the country to, instead of thinking about just the quality for the select few, but to be thinking about the quality for everyone. And so that makes it seem like some of these challenges are greater than they used to be. And I think they’re different challenges, right? We’ve evolved as a society and I think schools have evolved.
Eric Cross (27:40):
There is a conversation I was in on a plane with a person who was a materials manager for a company that made the adhesive for sandpaper. And we were flying…I was flying to Denmark and he was flying to some other Scandinavian country. And we were just talking about it. And he came from another industry, and somehow the conversation led to science. I don’t know how that happened. But somehow I just started talking about science and I asked him about, Eric, kind of what you said about the US kind of leading the way in science innovation versus the rest of the world. And I asked him why. And he said one of the reasons why is because the heterogeneous thought. The different groups of people that are coming to a problem actually create more innovative and novel solutions. Versus when it’s more homogeneous. And everyone’s either culturally or just for whatever reason, kind of thinks a certain way. While they might have a more efficient way, the variety of solutions are not as varied and not as novel. I was reminded of that story based on what you just said. So it’s really interesting. So it seems to be that it benefits if we have more heterogeneous groups, more folks who are contributing to STEM, because that’s gonna be solving the next problem more efficiently. Or I guess maybe in my head it seems like the next we need…we do really well when we have a dragon to slay. I mean, it seems like we come together when that’s the case, right? Like, I dunno.
Eric R. Banilower (29:06):
No, I think that’s…I think that’s accurate.
Eric Cross (29:09):
Later on the season of the podcast, we’re gonna explore ways to better integrate science with other subjects like literacy and math. Were you able to study at all any more integrated approaches to science instruction? Does any of your research support that approach?
Courtney Plumley (29:25):
Not on the national survey, we didn’t study that. And it’s something that we’ve talked about before, because it’s difficult to get teachers to…we were talking about instructional time. It’s hard for teachers to put a number on it when they’re integrating, because, you know, it’s not like I have my science block from 3 to 3:30 anymore. Now it’s kind of scattered about. But it’s something that has been in the ether. We’ve been looking at it in a couple of projects. So there’s some evidence that it can be effective, especially for getting more, you know…the idea is you can get more time for science if you are integrating with other subjects. But one thing to kind of caution is like, students need to have opportunities to learn each discipline when they’re doing integrated instruction. So you don’t wanna just have, like, math in your science. Kids already know to just, like, support it. Then it’s hard to take time from math to put it into science when they’re not actually learning anything new. That’s the easy thing to do, though, is say, “Oh, my kids already know how to measure. We did that in a previous unit. So now we’ll we’ll do it as part of our science instruction.” So it’s a lot of work to make it so they’re learning something new, mathematics and science, at the same time. And it’s not really something that we think that teachers should be having to do on their own, with all the other things that teachers have to do. The last thing they need to do is be creating their own, you know, curriculum. Something that’s already…you know, it’s not straightforward. So we’ve been talking about it, we think it’s really something that instructional materials maybe need to be focusing on instead of teachers having to do that on their own,
Eric Cross (31:01):
Teachers would implement it, but asking them to create it is a whole different thing, and it’s a huge ask.
Courtney Plumley (31:08):
Yes.
Eric Cross (31:08):
Yeah. And, did I hear you right? So the ideal situation would’ve been the students learning a newer math concept, but embedded in a science kind of context? Or was that the better way? Versus, “I’m gonna take a math concept they already know and then just put it into the science setting?”
Courtney Plumley (31:26):
Well, if the idea is that you can get more science time if you’re, you know, integrating things, so you can maybe take time away from a specific math block by putting it with science, or whatever, then if the math is something that the kids already know, now you’re just taking away. I think that that has to be new in both cases, in order to justify having more time.
Eric Cross (31:49):
Right. Eric, in the secondary level, any thoughts on that? On integrating these disciplines together?
Eric R. Banilower (31:56):
I think, you know, just like at the elementary level, it can be challenging to do it well. When I taught, I taught my last couple years in a kind of school-within-a-school kind of situation, where our goal was to try to integrate science, mathematics, and language arts. And it’s hard to do that in a meaningful way. And we did not have curriculum materials given to us to help us do this. We were trying to figure out how to do this on our own, while we were teaching 200 kids a day in our subjects. Right? And five preparations. And you know, it’s a big ask of any teacher. And there are teachers who thrive on this and are great at this. And, you know, that’s one thing I wanna, make clear: our data is about the system, and we are former teachers. Almost everyone who works at Horizon is a former teacher. We have the greatest respect for teachers and what they do. And what our data is showing is are kind of like areas where the system isn’t providing teachers and their students the opportunities to do great things. I think at the high school level, there has been this idea of project-based learning where students are bringing together different skills, different ideas from across disciplines. And I think there’s, again, a lot of potential in doing that. But trying to develop those experiences so that they are doing service to the different subjects, so students are learning what they’re supposed to learn in English Language Arts, that they’re learning, important mathematics, and that this is in a science context, where they are getting to do and understand what science is and how science, as a discipline, operates…that’s just a really hard thing to develop.
Eric Cross (33:53):
So what I’m hearing—and I really appreciate the nuance in this, because it’s not a simple “Yes. Integrated is better,”—I’m hearing “Yes. Quality control.” “Yes. It needs to be written not by teachers; they’re the practitioners.” It’s “Yes. And,” not just simply binary. Which…it’s so easy to wanna chunk things and say yes or no on things. But this one seems a much more nuanced approach. And in a future episode, you mentioned project-based learning, we’re gonna try and talk to people who have thoughts on this. And I really appreciate that you talked about project-based learning, because also, how do you evaluate that? How do you evaluate whether or not it is high quality? Is this is something I see? You know, high-quality standards, highest quality science teaching, highly qualified teachers. It’s something that I see often. Now, based on all your research, this is kind of the 30,000-foot view. What advice might you have for people who are thinking about changing the way science is taught in this country? Which hasn’t changed since 1977, at least since we’ve been measuring it. Any advice for people who do want to act? Another way to ask, it might be, if you were given a magic wand, <laugh>, you have all power, what might you do if you can control the entire vertical system?
Eric R. Banilower (35:07):
Yeah, so a clarification, I do think science instruction has changed. It has evolved. I think there’s a lot of really good things going on in different pockets of the country. One of the challenges is bringing those good ideas and good practices to scale. Right? There are approximately 1.2 million teachers of science K–12 in this country. That’s a lot of people. And about 80% of those are elementary teachers who are responsible for teaching other subjects as well. So my thinking is often about, “How do we take what we know and that we’ve learned through decades of research is effective, and impact a large number of teachers, and therefore a large number of students?” And you know, Courtney I think has hinted at this already. And you’ve mentioned it too, Eric, is that teaching is a profession, right? And it’s a craft. But in no other profession do practitioners have the expectation that they’re developing their own tools and methods for their work. I know when I was in my teacher preparation program, and it’s still extremely common, one of the assignments perspective teachers are given is to develop a unit and develop a lesson, right? You don’t have doctors being asked to develop new treatments and new tests to use. Their job is to get to know their patient, assess what’s going on, and then using research-based methods to develop a plan of action, right? And I think that analogy works really well in education and is a way that we could have a scalable approach for kind of raising the floor across the country for the quality of science education. Giving teachers research-based materials, high-quality instructional materials, that they can then use and adapt to meet the needs of their students, would allow them to focus on getting to know their students, seeing what their strengths are, seeing where they have room for growth, and using the materials they’re given to help those students progress. And I think that is definitely a way where we could have a big impact at a large scale.
Eric Cross (37:39):
Courtney, same question: Magic wand, all power. You can change systems from the elementary perspective. What would you do? I’m assuming part of it’s gonna be changing that 18 to 20 minute time. But even for that to happen, what would you do? What would you change?
Courtney Plumley (37:57):
Well, I don’t know. Like, for it to change, I don’t know the answer to that. But yes, increasing the time would be great. And like Eric was saying, giving teachers— ’cause again, I’m coming in, not enough probably background in science—and then, you know, when I was, when I was teaching, we had one set of textbooks for the entire grade. Six classes, right? Like, share them. But third graders aren’t gonna read textbooks anyway, right? So instead I’m going to the teacher store. I’m pulling things off the shelf. And like, “OK, yeah, sure, I’ll use this.” And nowadays, teachers are going to Teachers Pay Teachers or whatever. Because I didn’t have anything good to use. So like Eric is saying, if I had instructional materials that were good instructional materials that were gonna teach my kids, that they were gonna be engaged, that they weren’t sitting and listening to science, but they were doing science, you know, and I had professional development to actually help me do it? That’s what I think we need to have. And I mean, I know there are some people out there that are working on that, but it’s not a lot. I mean, if you look at Ed Reports, they rate how well-aligned science curriculum are to standards. And there are two right now that have Ed Reports green lights. There’s Amplify and there’s OpenSciEd. You know, so there’s not much out there for teachers to use. And, so it’s hard. It’s hard. Where am I gonna go and get this stuff if it doesn’t exist? And so I’m making it up by myself. Which we already said is not the best use of teachers’ time, when they’ve got so many other demands on their time.
Eric Cross (39:27):
Eric and Courtney, listening to both of your responses, it created a visual in my mind. And Eric, I loved your analogy of…I started thinking of a chef, a welder, and a farmer. And I thought about the chef saying like, “You’re a great chef! Now, can you go farm, and make your own food, so that you can cook it?” Or the welder who has to make his own welding tools and go smelting. You know, making the different rods. I’m not a welder. But you know, all those different parts. Or the farmer who has to build his own tractor and innovate all that stuff. You’re absolutely right, the way you articulated that. And then Courtney, you essentially said, “Give them the tools and then teach them how to use it so they can go and actually be effective with it, because you’re in front of kids doing so many different things.” There’s only so much time in the day, and teachers want to do these things; they want to, but you end up having to triage when you’re asked to. Going back to Eric’s analogy, if you’re in the ER, but you’re also creating the vaccines and you’re also doing the research on which types of vaccines are gonna be the most effective, that’s, that’s a lot to ask. And so, I appreciate both your responses on that. Now, last question, what are you both working on now? This report came out in 2018. What’s, what’s next on the horizon? Actually literally, that’s no pun intended. <laugh> What’s next? <laugh> What’s next for, for you both? What are you working on?
Eric R. Banilower (40:42):
Well, you know, we would love to do another national survey, in a few years. We have to get funding to do it. And you know, that’s always something that takes effort and isn’t a guarantee. We’ve written grants to do these studies in the past, and there’s also the dealing with the reality of the situation. I think a lot of schools, still coming off the tail end of dealing with Covid, are overwhelmed. And we’ve had a hard time, I mentioned before, recruiting schools, and it gets harder every time, just ’cause they have so much on their plate. And I couldn’t see going to a school now and saying, “Hey, one more thing. Do you mind?” So I think we have to kind of wait a little bit for things to settle down before we can do another one of these studies. It just doesn’t seem feasible right now. But we’d love to in the not-too-distant future. Other than that, Courtney and I actually work on some projects together and some projects not together. One of the things that we’re working on together is a study of a fifth grade science curriculum that was developed by Okhee Lee at NYU and her colleagues, that is both aligned with the NGSS and purposely designed to support multilingual learners in developing both their science knowledge and skills as well as their language skills. And we’ve been working with the crew at NYU to study this curriculum and try to figure out, how well it’s working and under what circumstances. So that’s been a really interesting project that’s going on right now.
Courtney Plumley (42:26):
I recently worked on a report with the Carnegie Corporation in New York that actually I think, compliments what we’ve been talking about a lot. It’s about the status of K–12 education in the US—or science education in the US! <Laugh>—and so as part of that report we interviewed like 50 science education experts across the country. We surveyed teachers, people in the university settings, researchers, and everything to kind of get a little bit more update of the state of science education right now. And so a lot of the things we’ve been talking about, we still are talking about with the people in this report four years later. So, work in progress. <Laugh>
Eric Cross (43:09):
And again, going back to 1977, based on what Eric was saying earlier, we’re looking at these large systems, these systemic changes don’t happen overnight.
Eric R. Banilower (43:20):
That’s right.
Eric Cross (43:21):
It’s very slow-moving.
Eric R. Banilower (43:22):
That’s right. I would say there is progress. I think we’ve learned a lot. We are getting better. Are we there yet? No, we’re not happy with where we are. But I think, you know, I think it’s important to be hopeful about the direction things are going in.
Eric Cross (43:37):
Well-said. I agree. Courtney. Eric, thank you so much for unpacking that report that speaks to, that validates what so many teachers across the country are experiencing. And thank you for your advocacy for high-quality science education and your passion for supporting teachers and being that voice from a data-driven perspective of what teachers experience and then advocating for solutions for them. It’s super-encouraging for me, and I know it’s gonna be really encouraging for a lot of our listeners. So thank you.
Eric R. Banilower (44:10):
Thank you for having us.
Courtney Plumley (44:12):
Yeah. Thank you, Eric.
Eric Cross (44:15):
Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Eric Banilower, Vice President of Horizon Research, and Courtney Plumley, Senior Researcher at Horizon Research. For much more, check out the show notes for a link to the 2018 National Survey of Science and Mathematics Education. And please remember to subscribe to Science Connections wherever you get podcasts, so that you’re not missing any of the upcoming episodes in Season three. Next time on the show, we’re gonna start laying out the road map for using science more effectively. And we’ll start by looking at the how and the why of integrating literacy instruction.
Susan Gomez Zwiep (44:49):
When we look at Science First and build language development around it, the experience tends to be more authentic and organic.
Eric Cross (44:58):
That’s next time on Science Connections: The Podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Wednesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month!
Meet the guests
Eric R. Banilower is a Vice President at Horizon Research, Inc. (HRI), and has worked in education for over 30 years. Eric was previously a high school physics and physical science teacher before he joined HRI in 1997, where he has worked on a number of research and evaluation projects. Most recently, he has been the Principal Investigator of the 2012 and 2018 iterations of the National Survey of Science and Mathematics Education, a nationally representative survey focusing on the status of the K–12 STEM education system.
Courtney Plumley is a Senior Researcher at Horizon Research, Inc. She began her career in education as an elementary school teacher before starting at HRI in 2009. In her time at HRI she has worked on many K-12 STEM research and evaluation projects. Most recently, Ms. Plumley has worked with Carnegie Corporation of New York on mapping the landscape of K-12 science education in the US and is managing the field test for the OpenSciEd elementary materials.
About Science Connections
Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher.
You might also like:
S1-02: Community and joy within K–8 science instruction: Desiré Whitmore
In this episode, we join Eric Cross as he sits down with physicist and science education specialist, Desiré Whitmore. Listen in as Desiré explains her work at the Exploratorium, a public learning laboratory. Eric and Desiré discuss finding passion in science, the importance of meeting students we’re they’re at, and K–8 science instruction with real-life connections. Desiré chats with Eric about her work on supporting the science of teaching science content at the Exploratorium museum.
Explore more from Science Connections by visiting our main page.
Desiré Whitmore (00:00):
I think it’s really amazing when we can realize as teachers, like, no, our job is not to just enforce rules on our students, right? Our job is to help students to achieve more learning.
Eric Cross (00:37):
Welcome to Science Connections. I’m your host, Eric Cross. My guest today is Desiré Whitmore. Desiré has held positions as a science curriculum specialist with Amplify Science, a professor of laser and photonics technology at Irvine Valley College, and is now the senior physics educator in the Teacher Institute at the Exploratorium in San Francisco. Her current work is focused on providing support and professional development to middle and high school science teachers to help them teach through inquiry. In this episode, we discussed Desiré’s pathway into physics, the impact of educators in her life, and the importance of representation for students in the classroom. I’m so excited for you to meet my physicist friend, Dr. Desiré Whitmore. All right. So just like a superhero, STEM superhero, you have an origin story and so—
Desiré Whitmore (01:36):
How long is this podcast gonna be? ‘Cause, you know, I can talk for days, so you—
Eric Cross (01:40):
I know, I know! But it’s, it’s…so, OK. We can give us a highlight. So, you know, 30 minutes. But what would be the origin story? You can start from any point in time, but what’s that journey like?
Desiré Whitmore (01:51):
I’m gonna start at the beginning, when I was really young, just because I think it’s important. Neither of my parents were college-educated. My mother didn’t finish high school. My father went back and got a GED later. But my father’s grandmother, her name was Claudia Pairs, and she was a teacher, right? So when I was a kid, she actually kind of raised me from, I don’t know, until I was around seven or eight. And so she was very important in who I became, I think because she taught me that college is important and she taught me to think. She taught me to ask questions. She taught me how to ask questions. Just the Exploratorium likes to do. Which is why I fit so well here. She taught me to always wonder and always think about things. And I remember as a kid, she taught me to count and read and write when I was, like, three. And she would always have bubbles at her house. And I was obsessed with bubbles. I thought bubbles were the coolest thing in the world. And just how you can take your breath and create this thing that now you can see, and it’s your breath, right? It’s your breath inside of a bubble and it’s flying around and it has all these cool colors, and then it would fly up and then eventually just pop. And you’re like, where did it go? Now my breath is just up there. Not understanding, as a kid, but my breath is always everywhere. I didn’t understand any of that, but I understood that my breath was inside of a bubble. That’s my earliest memory of thinking about science, was from that. And she was not a science teacher. She was—I don’t even know what she taught. I think she was an elementary school teacher, maybe. She died when I was 12. So I don’t have super-strong memories or of understanding who she was, only that she raised me and what she taught me as a kid. But that in itself really helped me because then when I was in the environment that I was in at home with my parents, which was not at all the environment she provided for me, I always had the things she taught me in my head, right? So I was always asking questions. My mother hated it. I was always taking things apart and putting them back together. So I used to take apart TVs and VCRs and vacuum cleaners and telephones, and my mother’s like, “Oh my God, I’m gonna murder you.” And she tried a couple times, too.
Eric Cross (04:25):
Did you ever put ’em back together and realize you had extra parts? You’re like, oh, hi.
Desiré Whitmore (04:29):
Oh yeah. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. VCRs have a lot of extra pieces. You’re like, “What do you even…it still works. It’s fine.” <laugh> You know? And vacuum cleaners too. They had a lot of extra parts, <laugh> all the time. And TVs. I should not have been playing with TVs. But like I said, I didn’t have a lot of parental, guidance as a child. So, like, whatever—I’m opening up TVs.
Eric Cross (04:54):
There’s a lot of open inquiry going on in your household. Yeah. Unsupervised.
Desiré Whitmore (04:59):
Unsupervised. But I didn’t know what it was or what it meant as a kid. I mean, I used to put things in the microwave. I did so many microwave experiments as a child, trying to cook different foods or melt different things. And so I think those kinds of experiences, where I was allowed to just be curious, kind of shaped who I am today. And then I kind of got into…you know, when I was in school, I loved math. In 10th grade, I had my first Black teacher, he was my chemistry teacher. His name was Mr. Strickland. And I was like, chemistry is cool, dude. And he was not the best teacher, but he was fun. Like you were saying, he was me, and he was talking to us the way I speak. And he was so like, just kind of chill and happy-go-lucky, I guess. But he wasn’t…he hadn’t taught chemistry in a long time. So he wasn’t a very good teacher. And me and one other kid in the class were in love with chemistry. And so we would read the book and do all the homework and he’d be in class lecturing and we’re like, “That’s not right, Mr. Strickland, like, what are you talking about?” And then he’d be like, “Oh, really, Desiré? Do you wanna teach the class, then?” And I’d be like, “Yeah.” And so I would go up and I would teach my chemistry class in high school, because the teacher was trying to make an example out of me. But he was also, I think, willing to be like, “I really don’t know.” And I really appreciated that. That he wasn’t just like, “I know all of the answers and you’re wrong.” Like, he wasn’t being a jerk, right? Like, the fact that I said, “Yes, I do wanna teach it,” and he actually let me do it? That’s pretty dope. And then I liked physics in my senior year in high school, but I didn’t think it was where I was gonna go or anything. I loved music and I loved math. Those were my two subjects.
Eric Cross (06:51):
What was it about math that resonated with you?
Desiré Whitmore (06:55):
I think it helped me understand the world a lot better. I didn’t have strong science teachers, I guess, growing up. It was a lot of reading out of books or watching laser discs in class. That’s how old I am.
Eric Cross (07:12):
Laser discs.
Desiré Whitmore (07:13):
Laser discs. And you know, so there wasn’t a lot of…I moved around a lot as a kid. I didn’t have this straight curriculum. You know, in one year, in the third grade, I went to three different schools.
Eric Cross (07:25):
Mm. Oh wow.
Desiré Whitmore (07:26):
It was kinda hard for me to latch onto school. But with math, because I could look at math and actually understand the world in it, I could see how math can be used to describe how things work.
Eric Cross (07:40):
I almost imagine, especially with so much transition in your life, it helped make sense of things. You had a lot of transition going on, but you were able to understand the world through the process of math. And then this early exposure, it kind of reminds me my own story too. Because there were these books that would do these cross sections of a cruise ship or a machine; that’s what got me really into engineering. Kind of How Stuff Works. I would watch that on Nova, How Stuff Works. I’d always be fascinated. Even Sesame Street had a segment where they would show you crayons and how the dye was added. You remember that?
Desiré Whitmore (08:19):
Yep. Yeah.
Eric Cross (08:20):
Young Desiré, doing photronics…photronics?
Desiré Whitmore (08:24):
Photonics.
Eric Cross (08:24):
Photonics. Photonics at home with the microwave and all these other things.
Desiré Whitmore (08:29):
Sure. How ’bout that.
Eric Cross (08:30):
<laugh> Right. And then loving math. So, early, I could see this combination, sort of this alchemy, happening inside you. And then, how did that lead to you becoming a physicist?
Desiré Whitmore (08:46):
It’s not as straightforward as it seems it should be. It’s obvious to everyone. <laugh>. But it wasn’t obvious to me. ‘Cause I wanted to be a lawyer. You know, because my parents weren’t educated, they didn’t really know…both of my parents and their subsequent spouses when they broke up—so my parents and my stepparents—are all bus drivers. And so they don’t know what options are. Right? So for them it’s like, “You have to be—you can be a doctor. You can be a lawyer. ‘Cause you’re smart. I know you’re smart, so you’re gonna be one of those things.” And I was like, “I don’t wanna be a doctor. That’s not actually interesting to me.” I did wanna be a teacher when I was younger, because I knew that my grandmother was one. But yeah, I went in and I was like, “I’m gonna be a lawyer. I’m gonna be a lawyer.” And then I go to college and I was like, ‘Eh, I don’t. I hate writing.” <Laugh> Like, I love reading, but I don’t writing. So I don’t think I wanna be a lawyer. I love music and I love math. I was originally going to major in music and math, but then I went to community college because I missed my opportunity to go to university for…long story. And so I’m at community college and I was like, “You know what? I’m gonna just do something new. I’m gonna be a marine biologist.” So my major was marine biology, and then they’re helping me pick out my classes. And they had zero math there. And I was like, “Pardon me. I think there’s a mistake, but I’m not taking any math.” And they were like, “No, you’re done with all your math. For marine biology, you only need calculus. And you took all of that in high school, so you’re done.” And I was like, “No, this is not gonna work for me, dude.” So I continued taking calculus anyway and moving on in math. And then I realized that biology wasn’t what I needed, but I did love my chemistry and I loved my physics classes. So I asked those teachers—chemistry, physics, and math teachers in community college, my professors—”I don’t wanna be a marine biologist and I don’t wanna be a lawyer. What do I do? What do you think I could study? I really like chemistry and math and physics.” And so all of them, all three of these professors told me, “Oh, it sounds chemical engineering would be good for you, so you should be a chemical engineer.” And I was like, “OK, cool. No problem.” That’s what I did. So I got my degree in chemical engineering. Right. And I finished community college, studying chemical engineering. I was like, “This is really cool. This is a lot of fun. I love engineering.” And then I transferred to UCLA as a chemical engineering major. And I was like, “I hate this.” <Laugh>. “I hate it a lot.” It was just…
Eric Cross (11:07):
What was it about chemical engineering that you were just not feeling anymore? What was it that just made you go, “nope”?
Desiré Whitmore (11:12):
It didn’t—at least the way it was taught to me—it wasn’t as as…exploratory, I guess. There wasn’t a lot of theory in it. There was just a lot of “OK, pull out a ruler and you’re gonna draw a thing and then this is how you’re gonna build a reactor.” And it didn’t seem very scientific to me. The science was missing. And don’t get me wrong, I understand, now that I have a degree in chemical engineering, that it’s not that chemical engineering is not scientific. But it’s that you build up the science and then you don’t focus on it. You focus on the engineering aspect of it. Which is, you have the science and the scientists will work on that aspect. But then how can WE do kind of larger batch chemistry. And for me, that was just less interesting. It was a lot of pushing buttons and just plug-and-play equations stuff. Instead of diving into first principles of why things happen in chemical engineering. There was no “why things happen”; it was “this is what happens, so this is the next step.”
Eric Cross (12:25):
You had to go so far into your academic career to realize that this is what chemical engineering is. And we were talking about representation, and not having examples or parents; your families were bus drivers. My mom was a receptionist and executive assistant, things like that. And I was the first of many, like you…we kind of had to go through and invest all this time and money to finally get to this place to realize, “This ain’t it.”
Desiré Whitmore (12:58):
This is not for me, yeah.
Eric Cross (12:59):
This is not for me. That was a long journey to get to that point.
Desiré Whitmore (13:03):
It was. Especially because I went through community college and I took a long time in community college, ’cause I was working full-time. So I was working full-time, going to community college. Took me a while. And then I finally get to UCLA. I’m like, “Yeah, I’m finally gonna get my degree and go make money!” And then I was like, “Ooh, no.” I mean, I could go and make money, don’t get me wrong. I could have graduated and made a ton of money. But I was not happy at all and I did not enjoy what I was doing. So, while I was in undergrad, I realized I don’t wanna do chemical engineering anymore. But what do I wanna do? But then I was taking…I took a quantum mechanics class. And that class blew my whole mind. And I was like, “This is the coolest thing that I’ve ever learned in my life, and this is what I wanna do.” And so I went and talked to my professor and I was like, “Can I work for you? Can I do research? Because this is amazing and I wanna do this.” I felt it was too late for me. I had been in school for so long and I was already kind of burnt out. So I was, “I’m not going to change my major. That’s just outta the question for me right now. It costs so much money for this degree and I don’t have—I’m not just gonna waste my time and keep working all these jobs.” So I had three jobs in college. And it was like, I worked at Radio Shack, I did research for this professor, and I worked in the library, the chemistry and physics library.
Eric Cross (14:28):
I love the fact that we’ve talked about laser discs; you said Radio Shack; and we talked about the analog internet of the encyclopedia salespeople. And I know all of those things. And I’ve been through all of those things together.
Desiré Whitmore (14:43):
Just in case people don’t know how old I am. <Laugh>
Eric Cross (14:47):
For our listeners who are way younger, yeah, this is how we grew up. This is how we—these things are extinct now. There’s this element of this kind of cultural connection. I think that we experience that. It kind of it flies under the radar. People don’t really realize it until you’re in an environment that’s different from what you’re used to. And you realize that, “Oh wow. this is not what I’m used to.” And the things that I’m finding funnier, the things that I connect with, it’s not what everybody else connects with. And as a teacher, it’s the same thing, right? Like, we go in the classroom and you know, you and I are rapping about laser discs and Radio Shack and I’m trying to talk to my kids about it. And they’re like, “Yo, Cross, what is that? Are you gonna give us a history lesson? What are these things?”
Desiré Whitmore (15:35):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (15:36):
And I found myself having to stay connected to pop culture, because I teach 12- and 13-year-olds all day. And it’s great for keeping things relevant for my students. But when I talk to my friends that are my peers, they’re like, unless they’re a teacher, they’re like, “I got no idea what you’re talking about.”
Desiré Whitmore (15:55):
Yeah. I have a friend who’s also a middle-school teacher and she’s always coming to me with all this. I’m like, “What are you talking about?” She did the Glow-up Challenge, but she did the Glow-down Challenge. So she invented a new thing. She’s like, “No, I couldn’t do Glow Up ’cause that’s too much. So I did the Glow-Down Challenge.” And it’s the cutest thing ever. And the students think it’s amazing. And I’m like, “That’s awesome. But I have no idea what the point of that is.” <Laugh>
Eric Cross (16:21):
And there’s this theme, too, that when we talk about teaching kids STEM, there’s this soft part of it, this relational piece of it that you mentioned, of this connective aspect that in a certain way kind of even superseded the content knowledge that your teacher even had at that point, where you’re going up and teaching the class. But just the fact that someone looked like you or spoke like you or connected with you in a certain way made a big difference to who you are as…well, the trajectory of where you went.
Desiré Whitmore (16:57):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (16:57):
“I like chemistry. It resonates with me.” And it’s something I think can get lost. And I think just to kind of a good segue, I use Amplify my classroom, and one of the reasons why is because of the representation that is in these videos. And you were part of crafting this for…was it the fifth grade?
Desiré Whitmore (17:21):
I mean, it was K–8. So I was—
Eric Cross (17:23):
OK, so you were doing the whole thing.
Desiré Whitmore (17:24):
Yeah, I was a part of the K–8 science team. My title was science curriculum specialist. But in reality I was hired to do the engineering internships, mostly. Which are middle school. And to be a sim developer. So sims K–8. I worked on several of them in both middle school and elementary. Yeah.
Eric Cross (17:47):
What was that like for you? When you were designing curriculum? ‘Cause as a teacher, it’s, you know, I think with teachers it’s kind of…I would consider myself, if I was gonna use hip hop as a metaphor, I’m more of a DJ than an MC. Where I wanna remix things that exist, versus, I don’t wanna write the lyrics in freestyle. So I don’t want to go and write the curriculum completely; I wanna take something that’s solid and then I want to go ahead and remix it. You are great at both. What was the process for you, being on that team, designing? How did you go about making, “OK, we’re gonna create this experience for kids”?
Desiré Whitmore (18:25):
It was, it was amazing. I learned so much, so much. It was the best job I had before I came to the Exploratorium. The process was amazing, because it wasn’t just me, right? It wasn’t just me. It was a whole team. And each unit had its own team. So we had a scientist, which I was the scientist we had. So we had a scientist; we had a literacy specialist, because it was really important to increase science literacy so that students understand not just that science exists, but “What are the terms that are used in science and how can I speak and act a scientist? What are the things that scientists actually do in their real life?” Then we had an assessment specialist and then we had a simulation specialist. And so, on the units that I was on, sometimes I was both the sim developer and the scientist, or sometimes I was just the sim developer and I got to work alongside another scientist, which was always fun. And so it was really nice, because I was working alongside master teachers. People who had been teaching for years, and they were able to help me better understand. ‘Cause I’ll come in and I’ll be like, “Yeah, there’s a unit on light waves, let’s come in and teach this unit on light waves!” <laugh> I was the sim developer and scientist on that unit, and there was another scientist working on the unit, but they were like, “Well, Desiré literally builds lasers, so I think she should be the science developer.” So we kinda had two science developers on that one, which was fun. But I come in and she’ll come in and she’ll be like, “Yeah, I think this is where we wanna go and this is what we wanna teach.” I’m like, “No way! Like, that’s not accurate, right?” And so I can come in, but then I’m coming in with all this crazy lingo, right? I’m up here. But then also I have taught kids about lasers and optics and photonics my whole career. So I’m also very capable of bringing it down to where kids need it to be. What I don’t know is how effective that is, right? When to do it and when not to do it. When to bring the level up; when to bring the level down. And so working alongside these other teachers and assessors really helped me to do that. And so for me it was just two years of deep learning experience. I learned—every single day at work, I learned something new. Which is something that I value and I’ve wanted in my career, my whole life. We made active decisions in that room. Like, “We want to interview scientists who are scientists of color or who have different abilities or who have different representations in all kinds of ways.” Right? And then we also have these fake internships, or not even the internships, but just in the general units. And we actively wrote scripts for those. And we actively wrote in those scripts, like, “This is a Black woman. This is an Indian woman. This is a Jewish man in a wheelchair.” Like, we specifically dictated exactly who we wanted in these videos, because we knew that representation was super-important and we knew that we wanted students to be able to connect.
Eric Cross (21:35):
Right. One of the things, I appreciate what I’m hearing a lot in that is the amount of intentionality that went into this. But even now as you’re reliving it, you’re still almost iterating on how could we improve it or how can we make it different or reach more people. And I think that goes towards when we’re talking about including more people and inclusion. Like, it’s not a binary thing. You’re always modifying; you’re always iterating; you’re always redesigning and improving to be more inclusive, to reach more students. Because you know, to your point, part of it is, “Yes, we wanna do this really awesome science curriculum,” but the other part of it is there’s more to it than just your content. And I think now more than ever…I use—we just finished the food bar unit. Metabolism. And in there there’s a simulator. They always ask me when I show the videos, “Are these, are these real people? Are these real situations?” And I tell ’em, “Well, the story is real, but these are all fictional actors. But what’s actually happening happens. It’s real.” And they get really into it. And I think one of the other things is with your simulations—especially the engineering units—there’s no one right answer. And so my students who want to go, “Mr. Cross, I wanna make the best bar! Perfect 10, best taste, cheapest!” And I’m like, “All right, good luck!”
Desiré Whitmore (23:06):
Yeah. Go do that.
Eric Cross (23:09):
Casue there’s something called trade-offs! It could happen! And they’re like, they’re trying. They get into the code. They try to open up the Inspect Element, when they feel like hackers.
Desiré Whitmore (23:17):
Yeah, they do. But these kids like, they’re so smart and they’re so resourceful. And I’m just thinking like, maybe that’s how we challenge them more, right? Sometimes we can give them these kinds of things where it’s like, “Go and create a program, ’cause that’s the level you’re at <laugh>. Go and create this program to do something similar that’s related to the work that we’re doing.”
Eric Cross (23:38):
I’ve had some of my own students redesign—I have one student who redesigns every assessment I give him. I give the project; I give the options for the final goal; and he always chooses—if I give three options, he always chooses option four. If I choose two options, he’s choosing option three. And so he’ll go into Google Sheets, he’ll pull all the data and then he’ll construct his own kind of spreadsheet with all the probabilities of different things.
Desiré Whitmore (24:06):
You tell this kid to make a GitHub right now <laugh> so that he can get a job as soon as he’s done with high school. <laugh>.
Eric Cross (24:12):
He’s amazing. And we did this one project where students had to design a Netflix show to show their understanding of metabolism. And they had to do four episodes. So I gave him a template. It’s not from me; it’s from, I think, EdTechPicks.org or something. And it looks like the whole Netflix splash page. They took photos, did the whole deal. He created NOTflix. Everyone else did Google Slides. His Google Slides was interactive. So when you clicked on different boxes, it actually took you to the next splash page of that show. I mean, it was….
Desiré Whitmore (24:48):
That’s fantastic.
Eric Cross (24:49):
It was, it was. I recorded his presentation. It was brilliant.
Desiré Whitmore (24:53):
But that’s amazing. And that speaks to your strengths as a teacher and why you’re an amazing teacher. Because you see the students and what they’re trying to do and you work with them; you meet them where they are. Right? There are so many teachers who would just be frustrated with that student. And it’d be like, “No, these are not your options. Your option was to do what I told you to do.” And there are many teachers who would do that. And I think it’s really amazing when we can realize as teachers, “No, our job is not to just enforce rules on our students. I mean, that is part of the job, because that’s what school was when it was created. But our job is to help students to achieve more learning in what we’re trying to do. And so the fact that you are so good with this student and that you encourage him to go above and beyond when he can, I think it’s so amazing.
Eric Cross (25:49):
Well, that brings me to my favorite group, organization, and the phase of your career of where you are now: The Exploratorium. And I wanted to kind of rap, talking about what you do now. Because the Exploratorium—I tell people, they go, what is that place? And maybe you can tell us what it is and then what you do. But for me, I’ll just tell everybody: It’s Disneyland for science teachers. And I love going there. I not only love going there because of what I receive from it professionally. Many of the PDs, I don’t even call ’em PDs—just communal learning experiences, that I’ve had that have been led by you and Lori and, and Tammy and the rest, and everybody that’s there have been incredible. And I have so much fun. Emotionally, I get excited when I go. When I’m on the plane, I’m like, “Here we go!” And then we go and we’re making fudge or we’re blowing darts with marshmallows across the room in the theme of Boba Fett. There’s just these rad things that are going on there. And it’s not like anything I’ve ever experienced before. So maybe we can close with talking about what the Exploratorium is, what you do there, for people who’ve never been and have been a part of it.
Desiré Whitmore (27:19):
I’m gonna give you what my definition of the Exploratorium is.
Eric Cross (27:21):
That’s what we want.
Desiré Whitmore (27:22):
So, the actual definition is, we are a public learning laboratory. We are known as the Museum of Art, Science and Human Perception. Cool. But, like, what does that all mean? Right? And I think your description of the Disneyland for science teachers, I think that’s a perfect description. ‘Cause for me, I tell people like, “Oh, I wanna go to the happiest place on earth.” And for me, that is the Exploratorium. And yes, I work there, and yes, it’s still true for me. So the Exploratorium is this huge museum. It’s an interactive science museum. And art—we have a lot of art. And it’s all about learning through doing. It’s not about learning science by going up to an exhibit and reading the little paper next to it. It’s like, no, you go up to an exhibit and you interact with it and you teach yourself science. The goal of the Exploratorium is really to help people understand that learning science, doing science, isn’t reserved for only scientists. Doing science is something that everyone in the world should and does do. And so helping people understand that everything we do is science is kind of the point of the Exploratorium to me.
Eric Cross (28:35):
Even the building itself…one of the other cool things too is, for people that don’t know, it’s the size of Costco or two.
Desiré Whitmore (28:43):
Yeah. Yeah.
Eric Cross (28:44):
It’s immense! And even the building itself teaches. Like, you have that whole workshop, dead-center in the middle of the floor where they’re designing things. It’s like inside-out. And then I remember going to the one experience where I think it was Eric who showed us that it’s one of the few facilities that is actually cooled by the Bay water. And there’s only a couple of those in the state that can do that. And it has a platinum rating, something wild that. So even just the building itself…everything that if they can extract every ounce of science teaching in that, it’s in there. And you are in a very important program for me. And can you talk a little bit about maybe what you’re doing in T.I.?
Desiré Whitmore (29:33):
So I am in the Teacher Institute. I’m a physicist in the Teacher Institute. And the Teacher Institute is a group of teachers and scientists. And our job is to basically support middle school and high school science teachers and teacher leaders in the state of California, but science teachers around the world, in their pursuit of science teaching. And by support, I mean we provide professional development. We provide other things, communities of practice, and we go and do workshops in certain places. We go to India to teach Tibetan monks and nuns science. And we go to Costa Rica to teach teachers all over the country of Costa Rica about science. And so our job is really, to help science teachers feel more secure in their science teaching and help to retain them in the field, because a good science teacher is so important in helping our students thrive. And so our job—and we take this very seriously—is to help science teachers thrive. And we are made up of PhD scientists and veteran classroom teachers. So we have on the one side teachers who have been teaching middle school or high school for years. One of my coworkers, Zeke, who I work with the most, he was a high school physics and environmental science teacher for 21 years before coming to the Exploratorium. And then me, I was never a classroom teacher. I was a professor; I was a physics professor at a community college, and I was a researcher. So my deep knowledge of physics and current knowledge of physics—or knowledge of current physics—combined with Zeke’s extremely experienced pedagogy is really how we work together as a team. And it’s not just Zeke, right? We’ve got a geologist on the team, Eric Muller. We’ve got Tammy, who’s a middle-school bio teacher. We’ve got, Julie Yu, who is a chemical engineer, PhD, and also a prior middle school teacher, former middle school teacher. We’ve got Hilleary Osheroff, who was a PhD biologist who used to work at the American Museum of Natural History. We’ve got Lori Lambertson, who was a middle-school math teacher. And so, you know, we all come together to bring our experiences both in and out of the classroom and in and out of the research lab to provide teachers with the best inquiry-driven stuff we can. And we’re very—we’re so equity-focused, because we believe that that’s important, right? We know that the impact of our work is, I think, why most of us are here. It’s why I’m here. In undergrad, my grad school, and my postdoc, I would go into classrooms. I would go into science museums and teach science to people. And I probably reached out to maybe…over that whole time, I would say a couple thousand people, right? Maybe a couple thousand people total. That’s great. But over 15 years of reaching out and only reaching a couple thousand people, that’s rough, right? And now I’m at the Exploratorium, and I know that if I reach one teacher, right? If I can teach one teacher…let’s say you. How many students do you have in your classes a year?
Eric Cross (33:11):
Two hundred a year.
Desiré Whitmore (33:12):
You have 200 students a year that you teach. So if you teach for 10 years, that’s 2000. That’s 2000 students. So I have, by teaching you today, assuming that I’m actually teaching you something that’s gonna be useful for you—
Eric Cross (33:29):
You do! And you are!
Desiré Whitmore (33:30):
You are going to be impacting these 2000 students over the next 10 years. And of course you’re gonna be in teaching for much longer than that. But let’s just say in 10 years, that payoff is so much higher, right? And you’re one teacher. But I have 30 of you in my workshop! And so if all of these 30 teachers each teach 2000 kids over the next 10 years, then I’m actually doing something. I’m actually changing the way that students see science, through changing the way that you see science. Right? And so I take my job very seriously, as we all do. Like, we’re so invested in our teachers. And it’s not that we don’t care about students, ’cause we absolutely do. But we understand that without good teachers, students aren’t going to be able to thrive, as often as they would otherwise. I was able to do it somehow. But I’m one. There are so many other kids who could have gone into science who didn’t because they felt they never connected to it. So our job is to try to help teachers connect to it. And an important part of that is allowing you all to experience science as a learner. We want you to play and have joyful experiences. We want you to enjoy science and to try to think about it from the perspective of your students. Walk in their shoes. So that when you then go back to your classroom, you are able to think about like, “Oh yeah, you know, my students totally asked the same question that I asked, or that another teacher asked in the workshop because they had the foresight to think about that’s what my students would ask.” Right?
Eric Cross (35:02):
Well, I think it’s really effective to create empathy for the learner. Because I find myself in that position. I don’t know if some kind of memory displacement field happens to me when I sit in those workshops, but Hillary will ask a question that I know the answer to and I’m like, “I don’t want to answer the question. I don’t—I might be wrong.” And I teach the subject! And I embody what it’s like to be a student. And when I leave, I might have to go back and reference exactly what the lesson was, but I remember how I felt when I didn’t know. And very rarely as teachers do we get put in positions like that. And so it helps me be in the position of my students emotionally, of what it’s like. Even even the intentionality of how do you ask questions and not showing an affect on your face when somebody says the right answer or the wrong answer.
Desiré Whitmore (35:55):
Well, I’m still learning that. I’m not great at it. Julie is the mast.
Eric Cross (35:59):
Julie’s got it nailed.
Desiré Whitmore (36:00):
I’m still trying to learn from her. She’s amazing. And I really would like to get there one day. But I’m still not there. I’ll be like, “Oh! Oh! Well, that’s…”. I have a terrible poker face. So I’ll be like, “Oh yeah, but you think that? Maybe…”. That’s a piece of it that’s really important, right? It’s this not giving away the answer, even when you have the right answer. Allowing people to ask the questions and explore and become invested in the problem, before giving away the answer. That’s something that I learn here at the Exploratorium. And like I said, I learn every day. And it’s something that I think is so important for us as teachers to learn and try to implement. Because oftentimes you’ll come and you’ll have students who are like, “I’m too stupid. I don’t know the answer.” And then somebody else will say the answer, and then the student is like, “Yeah, I was right. I’m too stupid.’” But it’s like no! But if you have that student actually think about it, then the student—once they do hear the right answer—they might be like, “Oh yeah, that would make sense.” Instead of “I’m stupid.” It’s like, no, this is, “I explored this and I figured it out on my own.”
Eric Cross (37:08):
Things keep coming back to how this experience and the process of them learning science even outweighs the content of it. ‘Cause the content is almost easier to share, it’s easier to get, you can look it up really quickly. But in your story and in many other people’s stories, the exposure, the experience, how they’re going through that process—I know that’s something that I’ve learned a lot in just watching. Not teaching science, but actually the science of teaching. Sitting in the workshops and watching how we’re treated as students, how you interact with us, and then being able to take that back to the classroom. And just to add onto the value that it’s created, I think one thing that it’s also done is given us community. And in addition to being able to impact students, it’s also been able to build resilience in teachers. Because we as teachers can feel very isolated. And especially now when things are incredibly difficult, and every teacher’s experiencing Covid and shutdowns and low staffing across the country in different ways, when you don’t feel you have community or people that you can connect with, it just makes everything feel exponentially harder. And you’ve done a great job at being able to build community with us in our community of practice. The Exploratorium has been able to do that. And it’s something that I’m super-grateful for probably more than anything else is that through these last two years, being able to connect really made me feel like, “OK, we’re gonna be able to do this.” And it’s not just about Cross or my other teacher in eighth grade or my sixth grade teacher who’s doing this. That message, I think, is really, really important. I wanna ask this: Was there a teacher or an experience that impacted you or inspired you throughout your educational career? You know, kindergarten all the way to college? Was there a moment or a person or anything that that really stuck with you, that you felt maybe influenced who you became? Met you where you were at? I know you mentioned your chemistry teacher at that point, but is there anyone else, or was it that person that was really the person who sticks out for you?
Desiré Whitmore (39:21):
There actually have been a few. Of course, the first is my great-grandmother, Claudia Pairs. But I think in the fourth and fifth grade I had the same teacher. She stayed with us going from fourth to fifth grade. And fourth grade was a new school for me. New town. I was the only Black child in the school, me and my sister. And my teacher recognized that I had no real help at home, I guess? And she really kind of…she saw that I was really smart. She would give me extra assignments when she could tell I was bored. It meant that someone outside of my house cared about me in a way that I didn’t feel cared about at home. Her name is Ms. Comet. Mrs. Comet.
Eric Cross (40:11):
Like…comet?
Desiré Whitmore (40:13):
Yeah. Mrs. Fran Comet. And I’ve tried looking her up as an adult and I can’t find her. But I work with so many teachers, and I know how hard teaching is and how degrading it can be…or demoralizing, I guess, to not be appreciated. And so I know what it feels to me when a student has reached out and shown me like, “Hey, I’m now in dental school,” or “I’m now getting a PhD in science,” and I’m just like….
Eric Cross (40:40):
I got a message this morning on Instagram from a student. And none of my students use their real names in their Instagram handles. So I got a message from Moonshine. <Laugh> And I was a seventh grade teacher. And through deduction, deductive reasoning, I figured out who it was. This person’s now in college and they responded in that…you know, you get one of those every once in a while. And I feel it just fills your tank. It’s just so important that we—it’s funny because, kind of to your point, we don’t realize who or how we’re making impacts on people. And in what ways. We just know that we are. And I tell other teachers, I said, “You have one of the few professions where you fall asleep worrying about other people’s kids.” And it’s the words that we speak, the things that we do, people are always watching. I know, no pressure, right!? Hopefully, someone listening can find Ms. Comet.
Desiré Whitmore (41:37):
Ms. Comet. Teacher at Buena Vista Elementary School back in the ’80s. But your talk about this impact, it reminds me of the thing I wanted to say, but I didn’t. But I’m gonna tell you right now. I mentioned how science was not a priority when I went to school, in my hometown. That’s Lancaster, California. But recently I got a phone call from a family friend and she was so excited. And she called me to tell me that her daughter was super-excited when she picked her up from school. Because I was in her classroom. She said, “Auntie Desiré was in my class today! And she works on lasers! And she does spectroscopy! And I wanna learn about spectroscopy now. So can we call Auntie Desiré?” And I was like, “Wait, what?” My friend was kind of confused. She’s like, “Desiré didn’t tell me she was in town.” She had no idea why her daughter was saying I was in her classroom, ’cause I was not physically there. And then I had to put the pieces together and I was like, “Oh my God, your daughter’s in eighth grade already.” It made me feel really old, ’cause I know this girl from a little baby. But I was like, “Oh my God, that’s the eighth grade unit on light waves for Amplify that I wrote, and I’m featured as the scientist.” Because we have real scientists in the units. And they featured me in that one, in my laser lab. And so this little girl who knows me really well, who lives in my hometown, is seeing representation in science. She doesn’t necessarily know I’m a scientist. She knows that—I don’t know what she knows about me. She just knows I’m Auntie Desiré and, you know, I like gumbo at Christmas. That’s what she knows about me. <Laugh>. And so she comes back and she’s so excited ’cause now she knows so much more about me. And she knows that if I can do it and I came from where she’s at, she can do it too. And she was super-excited. And I was just…it brought me to tears. I was just crying in the car. I was driving <laugh> at the time and I was like, “This is amazing. Work that I did is teaching you and all of your friends in this tiny little town that you live in. And that to me is so important because now this little girl knows that, like, she knows me as just a normal human right. Who likes Star Trek and Star Wars and The Owl House. And now she’s over here like, “Oh my gosh, this normal human wrote the science curriculum that I’m learning from.” Which I think is just so fantastic. And it really brought home for me kind of the importance of my work and why I’m doing what I’m doing. And that’s pretty awesome. And I get messages from Instagram, you know, from teachers who are like, “Hey, did you work on this? ‘Cause you were featured in the video, but did you write this light waves unit?” And I’m like, “Yeah.” And they’ll tell me, “I have students, this is their favorite unit. I’ve gotten notes from students saying, ‘This was my favorite unit in all of middle school.’” And I’m like, “Ohhhhhh!”<Laugh>
Eric Cross (44:33):
That story just gives me chills. Because I just can imagine how surreal that must feel. And you’re directly making that impact on those kids. And I’m glad that you shared that story so that everyone can hear it, because it’s a powerful story and I lived—I feel I was living it through you, just now, as you were discussing it.
Desiré Whitmore (44:54):
Yeah.
Eric Cross (44:54):
And I feel that way in the classroom to a small degree, because I get to have—when my students create posters of scientists that we don’t typically see, I’ve got you on my list of scientists, and I’m they’re like…And I’m like, “I can call her!” Like, “Mr. Cross, you KNOW her?!” I’m like, “Yeah, she’s a friend of mine! I was talking to her the other day!” And they’re like, “Whoa. She works with lasers?!”
Desiré Whitmore (45:17):
<Whispers> I do.
Eric Cross (45:18):
Desiré. I’ve held you for so long and—
Desiré Whitmore (45:23):
Yes, I’m sorry! I told you, I talk so much! I’m a teacher!
Eric Cross (45:26):
No! No, no, no, no. It was great! I wanna honor your time. Can you tell everybody where they can find out more about you again?
Desiré Whitmore (45:33):
So first off, you can find me on Twitter at Darth Science, D A R T H S C I E N C E, and you can also find me at Instagram at Dr. Laser Chick: D R dot laser chick. Even though I don’t post on Instagram that much. I also have a website, which is laser chick dot net. I’m still working on it. It’s not the best website yet. But, you know, it’ll, it’ll be better in the future.
Eric Cross (46:02):
Would you be willing to come back later on in the year and do a part two?
Desiré Whitmore (46:07):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. So I can actually finish telling you the story of how I got into physics! ‘Cause I totally didn’t. ‘Cause I’m all over the place.
Eric Cross (46:15):
So, everybody, cliffhanger! Next time she comes back, she’ll continue to tell us the story. Desiré, thank you so much.
Stay connected!
Join our community and get new episodes every other Tuesday!
We’ll also share new and exciting free resources for your classroom every month.
Meet the guest
A Southern California native, Desiré earned an associate of science from Antelope Valley College, a bachelor of science in chemical engineering from UCLA, and a master of science and Ph.D. in chemical and material physics from UC Irvine. Her research focused on developing very fast laser and microscope systems that could capture molecules vibrating and rotating in real time. She was a postdoctoral fellow at UC Berkeley, where she designed and built attosecond lasers (the fastest laser pulses, which emit x-ray light, ever measured). At the Lawrence Hall of Science she wrote an all-digital K–8 science curriculum (Amplify Science), which aligned to the NGSS, with the Learning Design Group (LDG). Desiré left LDG to teach hands-on laser technology and physics courses at Irvine Valley College before joining the TI staff. She is the proud mom of Stella, a four-year-old boxer-pit mix. In her spare time, Desiré is restoring her 1967 VW bug.
About Science Connections
Welcome to Science Connections! Science is changing before our eyes, now more than ever. So…how do we help kids figure that out? We will bring on educators, scientists, and more to discuss the importance of high-quality science instruction. In this episode, hear from our host Eric Cross about his work engaging students as a K-8 science teacher. Listen here!
Families and caregivers, welcome to Amplify Desmos Math Texas K–5!
Welcome to the Amplify Desmos Math Texas K–5 Caregiver Hub. We’re here to support your student as they explore math, work with friends to solve problems, and learn new and interesting concepts—and to support you as you go on this math journey with them! Below are some suggestions and resources for how you can support their learning at home.
Learn more about Amplify Desmos Math Texas.
Para la versión en español, haga clic aquí.
Unit Caregiver Resources
For every unit of the program, we’ve created a Caregiver Resource that provides a summary of key concepts. You’ll find a Caregiver Resource for each unit, in both English and Spanish.
Unit 1: Beginning Number Concepts
Unit 2: Numbers 1–10
Unit 3: Shapes, Coins, and Financial Literacy
Unit 4: Understanding Addition and Subtraction
Unit 5: Make and Break Apart Numbers Within 10
Unit 6: Numbers 0–20
Unit 7: Solid Shapes All Around Us
Unit 1: Adding, Subtracting, and Working With Data
Unit 2: Story Problems Within 10
Unit 3: Adding and Subtracting Within 20
Unit 4: Numbers to 99 and Financial Literacy
Unit 5: Adding Within 120
Unit 6: Length Measurement Within 120 Units
Unit 7: Geometry and Time
Unit 1: Working With Data and Developing Financial Literacy
Unit 2: Adding and Subtracting Within 100
Unit 3: Measuring and Solving Problems Using Length
Unit 4: Numbers to 1,200
Unit 5: Geometry and Time
Unit 6: Adding and Subracting Within 1,000
Unit 7: Equal Groups and Area
Unit 1: Introducing Multiplication
Unit 2: Adding, Subtracting, and Rounding Larger Numbers
Unit 3: Relating Multiplication to Division
Unit 4: Fractions as Numbers
Unit 5: Measurement and Financial Literacy
Unit 6: Sorting and Classifying Shapes
Unit 1: Fraction Equivalence and Comparison
Unit 2: Extending Operations to Fractions
Unit 3: From Hundredths to One Billion
Unit 4: Mathematical Relationships and Financial Literacy
Unit 5: Multiplying and Dividing Multi-Digit Numbers
Unit 6: Angles and Properties of Shapes
Unit 1: Volume, Factors, and Expresssions
Unit 2: Multiplying and Dividing Fractions
Unit 3: Multi-Digit Multiplication and Division and Financial Literacy
Unit 4: Place Value Patterns and Decimal Operations
Unit 5: Measurement, Fraction Operations, and Data
Unit 6: Geometry and Algebraic Reasoning
Sub-Unit Summaries
- Unit 1 – Volume, Factors, and Expressions
- Unit 2 – Multiplying and Dividing Fractions
- Unit 3 – Multi-Digit Multiplication and Division and Financial Literacy
- Unit 4 – Place Value Patterns and Decimal Operations
- Unit 5 – Measurement, Fraction Operations, and Data
- Unit 6 – Geometry and Algebraic Reasoning
Access Amplify Desmos Math at home.
In addition to a print Student Edition workbook, your student will have digital access to all learning, practice, and assessment materials through the Amplify platform. The digital curriculum can be accessed in school and at home by following these instructions:
- Select the Amplify Desmos Math button.
- Select Log in with Amplify.
- Enter your student’s username and password provided by your student’s teacher.
- Select the desired grade level.
Once logged in, caregivers can view student work by opening previous assignments.
Learn how to navigate the student home page.
Materials overview
Amplify Desmos Math Texas supports blended learning with supporting print materials and a unique digital experience. All K–5 lessons are available in a write-in Student Edition book. Many of the lessons include hands-on activities with manipulatives, tools that help students understand abstract concepts by making them tangible. Your student will also work with digital devices for an age-appropriate number of lessons.
When students use devices, teachers can monitor their work in real time, making sure they get the exact support that they need at every part of the lesson, in and outside of class.
Components of a lesson
Students in an Amplify Desmos Math Texas classroom can be seen (and heard!) asking questions, debating answers, justifying their thinking, grappling with problems, and working together and independently.
A typical Amplify Desmos Math Texas lesson includes:
- Warm-up: A short, attention-getting problem to pique students’ interest in the lesson.
- Activities: One to two mini-activities that challenge students’ problem-solving skills.
- Synthesis: Discussion to review and bring together the important concepts from the lesson.
- Show What You Know and Reflection: Questions for students to show what they know from the lesson. (Note: The Show What You Know lesson assessment is optional for kindergarten and grade 1.)
- Centers: Student-led activity stations that reinforce the math learned during lesson activities through interactive and often game-like formats. In kindergarten and grade 1, time for Centers is built into the last 15 minutes of every lesson.
To support, strengthen, and stretch students’ learning after the lesson, Amplify Desmos Math Texas offers options for:
- Differentiation: Mini-Lessons, Centers, Extensions, Boost Personalized Learning, and Fluency Practice.
- Practice: Additional problems your student’s teacher may assign for classwork or homework.
Support math learning at home.
You can support your student’s math learning outside of school in many ways:
Your student’s teacher may assign practice problems at the end of each lesson for classwork or homework. If your student has already completed the practice problems for the lesson, ask them to walk you through how they solved each problem, or talk about any parts that were challenging for them. Ask your student follow-up questions to encourage the use of math language as they explain their thinking, such as, “How do you know?,” “How can you show your thinking?,” or “How would you describe that?” If students are stuck, ask support questions, such as, “What information do you know here?” or “How could you represent this problem?”
Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game with students in the lesson or beyond the lesson. These games are aligned to the math of the unit and can be played with students outside of class. Your student’s teacher may introduce a Center game to students during or after completing a lesson, or you may need to teach the game before you play by using easy-to-follow instructions. Try out the following Center games with your student!
- Kindergarten
- Connecting Cubes: Build to Match
- Math Fingers: Show and Say
- Grade 1
- Find the Pair: Make 10
- Check It Off: Add or Subtract Within 10
- Grade 2
- Capture Squares: Add Within 10
- How Close? Add to 100
- Grade 3
- Capture Squares: Add Within 20
- Capture Squares: Multiply With 2, 5, and 10
- Grade 4
- Can You Draw It: Area and Perimeter
- Fraction Math: Beginner Fraction Models
- Grade 5
- Rectangle Rumble: Factors 1–5
- Compare: Divide Within 100
Each unit in Amplify Desmos Math begins with a Read-Aloud to engage students and provide context for the math of the unit. Elements and characters from the Unit Story then appear in lessons throughout the unit.
Kindergarten
- Unit 1 Story: The First Day of School
- Unit 2 Story: What’s in a Restaurant?
- Unit 3 Story: A Great Shape Adventure
- Unit 4 Story: Casey’s Town
- Unit 5 Story: Where is Harry?
- Unit 6 Story: Winners
- Unit 7 Story: Everybody Needs Help Sometimes
Grade 1
- Unit 1 Story: Ying’s New Town
- Unit 2 Story: Let’s Grow!
- Unit 3 Story: Impossible
- Unit 4 Story: The Collectors
- Unit 5 Story: The Day of the Wazzle-Squash
- Unit 6 Story: Side by Side
- Unit 7 Story: A Potluck for Pia
Grade 2
- Unit 1 Story: A New Class Pet
- Unit 2 Story: The Heroes of Pineapple Street
- Unit 3 Story: What Orson Imagined
- Unit 4 Story: 302 Ricotta Drive
- Unit 5 Story: Arjun the Artist
- Unit 6 Story: Where Eli Went
- Unit 7 Story: On Clementine Court
Grade 3
- Unit 1 Story: My Name Is Harper
- Unit 2 Story: The View From Up Here
- Unit 3 Story: Home Cooking
- Unit 4 Story: Coen and Obita
- Unit 5 Story: Just Stick With It, Sasha
- Unit 6 Story: Through Piho’s Eyes
Grade 4
- Unit 1 Story: One Step at a Time
- Unit 2 Story: Finny
- Unit 3 Story: Myles and the Loggerheads
- Unit 4 Story: Just for Fun
- Unit 5 Story: Special Day, Special Le
- Unit 6 Story: Captain Bogwart’s Treasure
Grade 5
- Unit 1 Story: Joyful Green
- Unit 2 Story: Princess Sweetsocks
- Unit 3 Story: Andrea
- Unit 4 Story: Market Day
- Unit 5 Story: The Monarchs
- Unit 6 Story: Hanan Pacha
Relate math to daily activities at home, whether grocery shopping, preparing a meal, or planning for a trip to the store. Your student can help you figure out how many more apples there are than oranges in the grocery cart, show how to split a sandwich into fourths, or figure out how much change you’ll receive in exchange for a $10 bill. Encourage your student to point out ways that you use math in your daily tasks.
Remind your student that getting stuck is part of the process—a necessary and beneficial part of learning. Many students (and adults) fear making mistakes, but research shows that mistakes help our brains grow! When your student gets stuck on a problem, encourage them to keep trying different strategies even if they’re not sure they’re right.
Discovering your own teaching style, starring Neysa Olivares-Torres
Meet Our Guest(s):
Neysa Olivares-Torres
Neysa Olivares-Torres, affectionately known as “O-T,” is an experienced educator, instructional leader, and advocate for equity and representation in education. As the child of immigrant parents and a first-generation college graduate, she understands firsthand the power of seeing yourself reflected in your teachers and in the texts you engage with. With a background in professional learning and curriculum implementation, she is deeply committed to empowering educators and students alike. Neysa grounds her work in purpose and reflection, championing teacher collaboration to improve outcomes for all students.
Meet our host, Ana Torres.
Ana has been an educator for 30 years, working in both the K–8 and higher education sectors. She served as an administrator and instructor at various public and private colleges and universities and as a bilingual and dual language teacher, dual language math and reading interventionist, dual language instructional coach, assistant principal, and principal in K–8 schools. Ana is currently the Senior Biliteracy and Multilingual Product Specialist at Amplify, and delivers literacy and biliteracy presentations across the nation. Ana’s passion and advocacy for biliteracy and support for all students from all walks of life has led her to educate leaders, teachers, and parents about the positive impact of bilingualism and biliteracy in our world.
Meet our Classroom Insider, Eric Cross.
Eric Cross is a middle school science teacher who hopes to someday be a lifelong educator, like the guests on Beyond My Years! In each episode, Eric connects with host Ana Torres to discuss her guests’ best insights, gleaned from their long and rewarding careers in the classroom. Then, Eric talks about bringing some of their wisdom into his current classroom and busy life.
Quotes
“Understand that a teaching style is not just [something] you find once and then that's it, right? It's ever evolving; it's always in progress; and it's not ‘one size fits all.'”
“Great teaching is just like cooking, right? You never really stop learning, adjusting, and reflecting, because our students keep evolving and so we should also.”
“ My style came, really, with experience, with time, and with observing other teachers.”
“It's important to make sure that it feels like a partnership with your students, that we are equal partners in learning.”
“There will be times that you have challenges, and there'll be times that you call them mistakes. I call them ‘challenges’ because if they don't occur, we don't learn how to pivot.”
“Look at your strengths, your personality, and your values, and then build your classroom approach based on that.”
“When I did show up as my authentic self, it made such an impact in my classroom.”
“Students thrive when teachers combine firm boundaries, high expectations, and genuine care.”
Defining math fluency
Meet Our Guest(s):
Jason Zimba
Jason serves as Amplify’s chief academic officer of STEM. Previously, he co-founded Student Achievement Partners, a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping teachers and school leaders implement high-quality, college and career-ready standards. Jason is a Rhodes scholarship recipient and a former professor of physics and mathematics. He holds a bachelor’s degree from Williams College, with a double major in mathematics and astrophysics; a master’s degree in mathematics from the University of Oxford; and a doctorate in mathematical physics from the University of California at Berkeley.
Meet our hosts: Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer
Bethany Lockhart Johnson is an elementary school educator and author. Prior to serving as a multiple-subject teacher, she taught theater and dance, and now loves incorporating movement and creative play into her classroom. Bethany is committed to helping students find joy in discovering their identities as mathematicians. In addition to her role as a full-time classroom teacher, Bethany is a Student Achievement Partners California Core Advocate and is active in national and local mathematics organizations. Bethany is a member of the Illustrative Mathematics Elementary Curriculum Steering Committee and serves as a consultant, creating materials to support families during distance learning.
Dan Meyer taught high school math to students who didn’t like high school math. He has advocated for better math instruction on CNN, Good Morning America, Everyday With Rachel Ray, and TED.com. He earned his doctorate from Stanford University in math education and is currently the Dean of Research at Desmos, where he explores the future of math, technology, and learning. Dan has worked with teachers internationally and in all 50 United States and was named one of Tech & Learning’s 30 Leaders of the Future.
Transcripts and additional resources:
Quotes
“The dials are all mixed up on fluency. On the one hand, I worry that word problems and applications…get proceduralized, and so we are aiming for fluency on something that is not a procedure in the first place.”
Stay connected!
